Opioid wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Ask a new player to go to the AH and buy a full set low level green items on a server that has been around for 2+ years and see how "fine" they find the experience to be.

Ask that new player to go and pick up two gathering professions and start selling all the raw materials on that same server and they'll have plenty of money to buy that low level set of green armor.

Beat me to it but i just rerolled on a PvP server and had 10k gold before i hit level 20. Inflated markets help noobs most of all.

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

alphawolph wrote: »

Opioid wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Ask a new player to go to the AH and buy a full set low level green items on a server that has been around for 2+ years and see how "fine" they find the experience to be.

Ask that new player to go and pick up two gathering professions and start selling all the raw materials on that same server and they'll have plenty of money to buy that low level set of green armor.

Beat me to it but i just rerolled on a PvP server and had 10k gold before i hit level 20. Inflated markets help noobs most of all.

Yes, but that's because Blizzard has been taking measures to combat the problems by increasing the amount of gold awarded from quests and drops while leveling. They also open new servers periodically, which creates a new, insulated market on the new server. And since they don't use the megaserver approach, even the established markets are insulated from the effects of the markets on other servers. Blizzard also has better gold sinks to help combat the inflation created by the added wealth that comes from the increased gold awarded from different sources.

So we agree AHs are awesome for new players to get the wealth from the rich to the poor.

I don't know why people say 'No' to this. There's nothing saying they have to get rid of the Guild Store option but frankly, it's total crap. You can't even search by term. The thing is a haphazard implementation of a new idea that they clearly didn't think too hard about. I don't think they wanted to have any kind of store and make everyone go back to their EQ days of 'WTS' crap in the Commons.

Let me tell you, when the Auction House came along and we didn't have to waste time standing around with a group of other players shouting out our wares, essentially playing shop keepers instead of heroes, we sighed in relief. Selling your loot should not be a chore. It should be something you take a few minutes to do and move on.

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.

In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.

This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.

Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.


EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...

Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.

I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.

All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.

The items remain rare because the Guild Store system insulates markets against a sudden and unpredictable influx of goods that would flood the market and destroy the value of the goods.

But they "insulate" the market from goods period - rather it's a sudden or unpredictable influx or not. And that is basically why they suck.

And you don't improve an economy by choking off its supply so people become desperate and pay unreasonable prices for things. That's called price gouging and taking advantage of a bad situation. That isn't helping to maintain the true value of goods.

@NaciremaDiputs‌

Let's start with what we agree on, the blatantly obvious, as you state it:

"Guild Stores are highly restrictive and I agree a better system is needed..."

BOOM, that gets us over half way there. If only the other AH haters in the thread would also recognize the obvious we could move on much easier and advance the discussion...lol.

I agree that I don't think zeni is capable of delivering a comprehensive AH anytime soon, even if they wanted to...so some kind of interim where we have less compartmentalization and DECOUPLE the concept of markets from guilds, which many players find completely inappropriate, would be something I think a lot of people could agree on as a transition or as a marked improvement. Also, with less compartmentalization, if zeni would provide an interface that belongs on this decade, or even century, many of the information shortcomings of the current system (knowledge of pricing and demand) would be overcome. Players need to be able to have easy, fair access to sales and pricing data to keep gouging down and competitive pricing alive and well.

You are mistaken about a great many things, however. Since I don't want to write a book on it, I will try to keep it short.

1) Devs have COMPLETE control over supply and even demand. They can make an item useless overnight. This happens in MMOs all the time. Of course drop rates impact supply. You also have to realize that there is demand for many items other than what you are envisioning...

2) Which brings me to the second point...look at deconning...deconning is huge in this game, and will create a continuous demand for loot in addition to the typical demand. Players rely on deconning for IP, mats, traits, etc. It is NOT a trivial source of demand. It also provides a whole additional set of controls, as the rate of "drops" from deconning will also directly impact the demand for more goods to decon...

3) Manufacturers are not in a vacuum, they have competition. Even if they try to go to new markets...which is not some panacea. There are other aspects to the equation, and their main one is their cost of production...if they are still making money, they can handle drops in price and frequently have to, again because of competition...then they will look at other things, like dropping their costs (labor, materials, taxes, etc.). Your concept of them just picking up their marbles and finding a new market is not the norm...there are only so many of them out their and they can have significant barriers to entry.

4) So your hang up on market segregation and artificial market barriers as some type of salvation is misguided at best. If loot is going to become as common and out of control as you postulate, it would spill over to wherever there are players. The only way to address it is to adjust the MECHANICS of the loot and the inputs to the market...not kill the market itself...so....

5) The developers apparently are primarily concerned with rare loot, whatever they consider that to be in this game....by using bind to acct, or a variety of other mechanisms (flags so something cannot be vendored, etc.) you can impact the supply of these goods directly. Remember the devs completely control the inputs to the market. So gutting the whole market is not the way to go, it has too many positives for players.

6) AHs bring a lot to the table when it comes to market health. They encourage transactions and remove gold from the game with each transaction...they are inherently anti-inflationary.

7) This statement of yours makes no sense:

"Adjusting the drop-rate doesn't solve this, because that only ensures that there is a shortage of the item and doesn't do anything to stop the introduction of the goods to the market and the surplus already exists and a lower drop-rate only slows the inevitable crash of the market without addressing the surplus of goods..."

Adjusting the drop rate OBVIOUSLY SLOWS the introduction of the item into the market. This allows the demand to eat away at the surplus supply, as fewer of the items are available PER UNIT TIME. It is simply a matter of the numbers and the math to tune it appropriately. But in any case, for certain items THERE ARE OTHER LOOT MECHANICS, like bind to account, that solve the problem at the input stage, and preclude the need to f with the market.

8 ) This statement of yours also makes no sense:

"However, in order to have a healthy economy, there needs to be a concept of "foreign" markets to allow the movement of surplus goods to a market where there may be a shortage."

This is completely wrong. You are assuming market segregation is good. Good for who? People wanting to jack up prices? Again think of all the difference between real world manufacturers and crafters in the game. Basically, you are advocating for markets reachable by only subsets of crafters, which means the consumers in those markets are at a huge disadvantage from a lack of competition and information. THAT is completely unacceptable. You seem to have a manufacturer or supply centric set of notions. Low prices are good, competition is good. High prices that result from a lack of competition, a lack of market access, or a lack of information are all bad and inefficient. They are anathema to good, healthy markets. Try things out on the demand side for a while. Besides, there are ways to increase demand...devs can do this easily.

It certainly isn't good for those consumers stuck in the segregated markets for whatever reason, like a lack of market information, that are dealing with the shortage. Again, there is NO REASON that the inputs for a given item, like drop rate, or bind mechanics shouldn't be used FIRST, instead of destroying the tried and true fundamentals of an open, accessible market. If your game has a loot faucet that is making rare loot common, you don't turn around and introduce artificial disabilities throughout your game's economy...instead you adjust the faucet. Having open markets with robust information for buyers and sellers is too valuable of a feature to screw with needlessly.

Damnit, I wrote a book anyway. Do us a favor and keep your posts shorter, will ya? lol

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.

In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.

This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.

Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.


EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...

Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.

I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.

All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.

The items remain rare because the Guild Store system insulates markets against a sudden and unpredictable influx of goods that would flood the market and destroy the value of the goods.

No. They "insulate" the market from goods period - rather it's a sudden or unpredictable influx or not. And that is why these Guild Stores suck.

And you don't improve an economy by choking off its supply so people become desperate and pay unreasonable prices for things. That's called price gouging and taking advantage of a bad situation. That isn't helping to maintain the true value of goods. Supply and demand does that.

Except you're still trying to apply a real world model of supply & demand to a video game where the production of goods differs entirely.

I wasn't trying to apply any kind of model to that statement.

What I was doing was challenging your assertion that guild stores insulate the market from sudden and unpredictable influxes of goods. Because that's not how they operate.

You behave as if these guild stores have a mind of their own and know when to limit certain goods from coming onto the market to maintain balance. But that's not how they function. They are just mindless barriers that limit the flow of goods. They do not create balance in any shape or form.

Now as far as your ideas about real world models of supply and demand I was trying to avoid that because I can't make any sense of it. There does not need to be a limited amount of goods being produced for them to retain worth like you seem to be suggesting.

For example: there is pretty much an endless cycle of cows being produced in the United States. In fact there are so many that environmentalist are pissed because their farts are becoming a major source of pollution

Yet beef still has significant cost on the market. Why? Because there is demand for it and people like to eat it. Plus there is quite a bit of effort involved in raising cows so not everyone is going to do it for themselves.

Being infinite or not has nothing to do with it - because there are all kinds of goods in the real world that can be infinitely produced barring some world-ending cataclysm.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other really but the guild store interface is just pants-on-head ***. So anything would be an improvement really.

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

If you can't make sense of supply & demand in the real world why are you trying to debate it in a video game?

I said I couldn't make sense of your ideas about the real world models of supply and demand. There is a big difference

Jeremy wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

The action house in wow is silly. There isnt anything you cant buy for a faily cheap price, which pretty much shows why I dont want any type of AH to ever come close to ESO!

Yes how terrible. You can buy things you want for fairly cheap prices. We certainly don't want that here now do we. We much rather have things rarely sold and expensive.

Yeah, like others have said in this thread, the anti AH crowd really is puzzling at times...why shouldn't consumers have access to plenty of items at competitive prices??? Either people are just clueless, or they really think it is their right to price gouge other players through a borked system.


Again, if the devs are worried about "rare" loot issues, there are easy ways to adjust those inputs without screwing with market fundamentals.

Brennan wrote: »

Dyvim wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

The action house in wow is silly. There isnt anything you cant buy for a faily cheap price, which pretty much shows why I dont want any type of AH to ever come close to ESO!

Yes how terrible. You can buy things you want for fairly cheap prices. We certainly don't want that here now do we. We much rather have things rarely sold and expensive.

Yeah, like others have said in this thread, the anti AH crowd really is puzzling at times...why shouldn't consumers have access to plenty of items at competitive prices??? Either people are just clueless, or they really think it is their right to price gouge other players through a borked system.


Again, if the devs are worried about "rare" loot issues, there are easy ways to adjust those inputs without screwing with market fundamentals.

Bears.
Beets.
Battlestar Galactica.

I unsub for a week, come back and... Brennan still isn't making a lick of sense.

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.

In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.

This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.

Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.


EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...

Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.

I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.

All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.

The items remain rare because the Guild Store system insulates markets against a sudden and unpredictable influx of goods that would flood the market and destroy the value of the goods.

But they "insulate" the market from goods period - rather it's a sudden or unpredictable influx or not. And that is basically why they suck.

And you don't improve an economy by choking off its supply so people become desperate and pay unreasonable prices for things. That's called price gouging and taking advantage of a bad situation. That isn't helping to maintain the true value of goods.

You're claiming that guild stores + no global AH = no access to market that somehow magically creates a price gouging market. How can it create a price gouging market if no one has access to the market???

An auction house or at least a trading post where everyone can buy and sell items.

yeah, they put some work into it, but this REALLY isn't something you can 3rd party...you still have to handle the delivery, etc. which should all be done by the AH.

@Lilth

Its not a bad one, anything that increases market size is a positive step at this point...but they really need to get away from guild = market. That concept just doesn't fly...many people have been in the same guilds across multiple games...and are loyal to them and don't see them as places to sell and maximize profit...but instead places to give and help...

So yeah, you can join other guilds just for trade purposes, but that goes against the whole idea of guilding for a lot of players...plus its damn inconvenient and using that interface over and over across multiple guilds falls under the cruel and unusual clause...

Cogo wrote: »

How many MMORPGs have you played other the WoW where AH IS a standard.

I have played MMORPG since the mid 90ies and playerdriven economy, events, Roleplay, raids, are shining in the games where the setup is good.

I don't want to be rude, but are you sure ESO is for you? If you don't like interacting with people and wants to sell and buy anonymity???

Like a 500 person x 5 guild store front?
But I would say every MMO I've played, and some are F2P, have some sort of AH, Market Stalls, or both. The Market Stalls are a person selling and or buying, not some Guild.

What are you selling? Stole goods?

Like a gold seller in a guild store?

You don't have to be in a guild at all. Thats is your choice, which is one of the core features with ESO. But as most things in ESO, you choose, you get the effect of it.

Here is the funny before we go on Con go:

Cogo wrote: »

Patch 1.1 = More enchanting nodes. More fishing featurs and they add recepies for the new zone, which some only the hireling can bring.

I really love new ideas and how much work OP put in his post.

I do like the idea of certain traideskills gets added skills they can learn IF!!! BIG IFFF, Zenimax introduces housing.

A store that sells you mats which is rare by the core of the game....you should not have access to everything. Some things are more valueble and rare then others.
.......

Is it to much to ask that someone comes up with the idea that, lets make a really good provisioning recepie but it needs a drop from a very hard raid boss + materials from other tradeskillers and takes time to produce?

OP, Love your post. Dont agree with much of it though.

What YOU want, "But as most things in ESO, you choose, you get the effect of it", no one else can express a desire that can benefit a percentage that by forum numbers is the majority.

If you like to buy and sell anonymity, there are plenty of NPC shops who will by anything really. Not very much gold, but you get your anonymity.

2,500 personally, and well known, friends in 5 guilds ....
Like a botter in anonymity, or openly known and acknowledged by peers, in a Guild Store? Where do you think most of their gold comes from? Only a tiny percent, that I see, of top end materials for the different crafts are being spammed by a single person in multiple zones. Not always the same person, but not a flood that the gold sellers collect and have.

So an AH is unacceptable because it wasn't in the game from day one, but what you want added in is acceptable because of something known as the "Special Snowflake" effect.