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Auction House
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quadraxis666✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes!various arguments for and against. fact is, a universal auction house can and will work just fine, Star Trek Online has one and there's no problem with it, anyone can at a glance see how things are selling, what they sell for, be competitive with pricing etc. It's something this game needs, guild stores are woefully inadequate.
If there's a concern with some ultra rare loot being suddenly too easy to obtain because of an AH, well again do what STO does, make such items bind on pickup and not sellable. So the only way to get those types of item is to find/earn them.0 -
Yes!Yes!!!!! We absolutely need a public AH. The guild stores are becoming over run with high level gear that the lower players can't use. Prices are already becoming to high. Furthermore, I look for items in the guild stores (I belong to 4 trade guilds) and occasionally cant find the item I am looking for in any of them. It sucks because I have to ask in guild chat and hope to get a response from someone. Having a public AH will alleviate this problem for me and many other people.1 -
Trosski✭Yes!also forgot to add. Regardless of what they do. It would be nice if they made it so you could search for a specific item by name instead of having to wade through pages of crap you don't care about to get to the item you want... and even still not all of them are grouped together making price comparison non existent.3
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Katahl✭No!@Jeremy
I have no issues with my guild store. I have issues with the guild store "UI" but the actual store is fine. The economy is far more than JUST and Auction house or lack thereof. And no, I do not think the first or any single month, is long enough for any economy to have matured enough to judge. At least not for something as different as ESO's guild store system is.
"Patience is one thing. But refusing to recognize a problem where one exists is another."
pa·tience
ˈpāSHəns/
noun
1.
the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset.
"Fear not the darkness, for it is already within you."0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes!@Jeremy
I have no issues with my guild store. I have issues with the guild store "UI" but the actual store is fine. The economy is far more than JUST and Auction house or lack thereof. And no, I do not think the first or any single month, is long enough for any economy to have matured enough to judge. At least not for something as different as ESO's guild store system is.
"Patience is one thing. But refusing to recognize a problem where one exists is another."
pa·tience
ˈpāSHəns/
noun
1.
the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset.
Well we disagree about that then. I think a month is long enough to properly judge something.
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DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭No!100% no, and not because I'm an ES fanboy. People literally have ZERO concept for how bad a server wide (we're a on a single server with MILLIONS of players) AH would lag down everything and cause massive problems. Try to imagine 35,000 listings of JUST Sanded Maple. Now multiply that time all the diff items in ESO, you get the idea.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes!100% no, and not because I'm an ES fanboy. People literally have ZERO concept for how bad a server wide (we're a on a single server with MILLIONS of players) AH would lag down everything and cause massive problems. Try to imagine 35,000 listings of JUST Sanded Maple. Now multiply that time all the diff items in ESO, you get the idea.
Guild Wars2 had an auction house like this and it worked fine. So I think you're exaggerating the horror it would bring to the game ^^
I'm sure it could be implemented in such a way that it would not cause massive problems.Edited by Jeremy on May 12, 2014 5:59PM3 -
alphawolph✭✭✭Yes!100% no, and not because I'm an ES fanboy. People literally have ZERO concept for how bad a server wide (we're a on a single server with MILLIONS of players) AH would lag down everything and cause massive problems. Try to imagine 35,000 listings of JUST Sanded Maple. Now multiply that time all the diff items in ESO, you get the idea.
35k listings of anything would make me a happy camper.
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mumok✭✭✭No!Don't know if this has been posted already but ESO had this to say.
What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking
Our goal is to make the economy more player-based, but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time because there are so many players involved on a megaserver. With extremely large communities, low-percentage drops can become highly available in auction houses. It ends up harming the “gear chase” portion of the game.
They do have a good point.3 -
Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!Don't know if this has been posted already but ESO had this to say.
What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking
Our goal is to make the economy more player-based, but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time because there are so many players involved on a megaserver. With extremely large communities, low-percentage drops can become highly available in auction houses. It ends up harming the “gear chase” portion of the game.
They do have a good point.
Actually its a crap point, as you don't kill the patient (in this case the games economy) to handle the equivalent of a symptom of a runny nose. Instead you make certain high end drops Bind on Pickup, if you are truly that worried about them. Or you look at the drop rate to make sure they really are rare...otherwise you stfu and get the hell out of the way of the supply and demand curves in your market. As developers, YOU CONTROL THE SUPPLY, so coming out with an excuse about how you have to hamstring the market is really stupid and short sighted.
Basically, at this point, there are three options for people that are against an AH, apparently devs included: 1) Complete and total ignorance of basic economic laws and theory, 2) rampant fanboism for the game, that flies in the face of over 10 years of AHs successfully used in MMOs 3) an ulterior motivation, such as "this is the best we could code given megaservers", or "this allows me as a player to just gouge the crap out of people"...
That's it. Pick one and you can sum up every anti AH post in this thread.
Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 8:06PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.3 -
Orizuru✭✭✭No!Basic economics doesn't cover this, which is part of the problem. In basic economics, you don't have an infinite supply of goods coming into the market. Market Saturation is a major problem when you have an infinite supply of goods entering the market.
I'm opposed to a global AH because I actually bothered to study MORE than basic economics.8 -
Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!NaciremaDiputs wrote: »Basic economics doesn't cover this, which is part of the problem. In basic economics, you don't have an infinite supply of goods coming into the market. Market Saturation is a major problem when you have an infinite supply of goods entering the market.
I'm opposed to a global AH because I actually bothered to study MORE than basic economics.
I seriously doubt it. And apparently your studies didn't include math...you might want to look up the word infinite. Nothing in the game is infinite. Basic economics covers this situation just fine. How is market saturation a problem that will not be handled by supply and demand? Obviously you will have more of cheaper items in the market than other items...hence they are common and cheap...AHs allow the market to work just fine, that is NOT the problem. Since this game is a simulation, the devs can always tune the inputs to the market, i.e., drop rates, INSTEAD of f'ing with the efficiency of the market and the openness of the market, which leads you down the path of cluster f's that we have now.
Arguing for a less open and less efficient market is the height of economic ignorance. Perhaps you cut class or were hungover those days?
Also, how do you equate an idea of market saturation with infinity in the first place? If we are looking at an infinite amount of rare loot in the market, which is impossible to begin with, but lets say a number approaching infinity, then again, its a drop rate issue NOT a market issue. Besides, do you actually want to try and claim that over the life of the game, the devs wont be tinkering with drop rates untold numbers of times ANYWAY?
Now if the devs are concerned about somehow rare drops becoming less rare or more easily accessible through a market, they are confused. You don't tamper with the very features of a market that make it appealing and make it efficient, just because you cant figure out how to tune a drop rate...or utilize another mechanic, such as BoP, that has worked to make "rare" loot less accessible as well. I would just make sure the binding is to the account, not just that toon. Again, no reason to needlessly annoy players, which this game sometimes excels at...as most new MMOs do.
Since analogies are all the rage in this thread, how about this as food for thought. If poison is introduced into someone's system, you don't blame that person's circulatory system and seek to alter it or change it permanently to address the poison (you may temporarily put on a tourniquet for say a snake bite, but you cant leave them on forever)...since circulation is fundamental to function and life. You look at the source of the poison and specific countermeasures to address THE poison...not the fundamentals of the functioning of the organism. Same holds true with the market...if you have an input that is causing a problem, you adjust the input...or add in some countermeasure (like BoP), instead of tampering with the fundamentals of the market and injuring/killing the whole system or organism.
One other thought...because of the nature of deconning in this game, and its status as a source of both crafting items/mats and crafting xp (ip), you have to consider that you will have additional demand for items above and beyond the standard demand for any given weapon or armor item. Each piece of such loot is really also just an unstackable container of crafting materials, enhancements, research potential, and IP.Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 9:04PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.2 -
Orizuru✭✭✭No!Goods are not manufactured in this game. They simply appear on corpses, in chests, urns, crates, and other containers or are crafted using materials that appeared in one of these fashions. That is an infinite supply of goods because there are no limits to how many can appear in the game before there are no more to be had.
Please drop the crass insults if you really want to discuss this though. We disagree, we don't need to insult each other because of this.Edited by Orizuru on May 12, 2014 8:40PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes!Don't know if this has been posted already but ESO had this to say.
What's your purpose in making guild stores for guild members only? Why not make them for everyone? – sliyerking
Our goal is to make the economy more player-based, but not to have a system that allows you to find anything at any time because there are so many players involved on a megaserver. With extremely large communities, low-percentage drops can become highly available in auction houses. It ends up harming the “gear chase” portion of the game.
They do have a good point.
Basically they are admitting they designed the economy to where you can't find what you are looking for to buy because they want us to have to find things ourselves. So at least they are honest about it.
But their point which you describe as good is essentially the same point me and others have been making on this forum for weeks now. And that is that this economy sucks. So even the developers disagree with those of you who say this game's economy is great and works just fine. Because from the sound of it, the developers made it suck intentionally.
Either way, if they wanted certain items to be exclusive to individual efforts all they would have to do is put special tags on those items that prevent them from being bartered on the auction house. There is no need to make the entire economy crap to accomplish such a simple goal that involves only a small percentage of items they don't want to be available to buy. Because by making it such a frustrating and ineffective system, a lot of people (myself included) don't even hardly bother with it anymore. And that brings the entire system down and makes it difficult not only to find rare items for sale - but even routine items that are needed on a regular basis to use such basic functions as crafting.Edited by Jeremy on May 12, 2014 9:23PM2 -
Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!NaciremaDiputs wrote: »Goods are not manufactured in this game. They simply appear on corpses, in chests, urns, crates, and other containers or are crafted using materials that appeared in one of these fashions. That is an infinite supply of goods because there are no limits to how many can appear in the game before there are no more to be had.
Please drop the crass insults if you really want to discuss this though. We disagree, we don't need to insult each other because of this.
Then drop the attitude. Again, you don't seem to be thinking, and you don't seem to understand the word "infinite". But yes, let's have a discussion.
There are different types of goods in the game. Some are indeed crafted. These will obviously be limited, all the more so as the materials required to craft them are limited at the high end. For the materials, their prevalence will be based on their drop rates in the game. These are all dev controllable. Most MMOs have junk loot. This game is no exception. Perhaps you have noticed many items, including provisioning items, which are primarily what comes out of those crates and urns, as having ZERO value at vendors. Because there is junk loot, you don't screw with the market and try to re-engineer or hamstring its fundamentals.
There is still a market for such things, they are just priced by the market accordingly. For example, IRL, such things as sea salt, which is basically a commodity that has an infinite supply, still sell. There is a convenience and a logistics factor. Same with junk loot or low level crafting mats. Also, it doesn't seem that you are accounting for all the different types of materials involved in crafting...the enhancements, the traits, etc.
For the high end loot or materials, it is truly simply a matter of tuning the drop rates or introducing another mechanic, such as bind to account. The issue for the developers is to control or tune the drop rates so these rare items do not became as prevalent as junk loot...that is a simple numbers game. If the numbers are too hard for them, or there are other issues (like lack of decay), THEN you go to other artificial mechanics, to make up for the artificial mechanic of no (or repairable) decay, LIKE bind to account...this IS NOT A NEW MMO problem. It has been handled over and over by other games that didn't kill their own market and seriously screw over or inconvenience their playerbase in the process.Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 9:37PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.1 -
Orizuru✭✭✭No!Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.
In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.
This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.
Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.
EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...
Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.
I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.Edited by Orizuru on May 12, 2014 11:12PM4 -
Aeradon✭✭✭✭✭No!We have a player based economy and minimised inflation from the buy low sell high concept of an AH.
Plus, I enjoy the trading so much. You get to haggle and people pay what they feel it's worth; accept what they need. That makes a great economy. Nobody is there to say "That motif is worth 3k on AH, I can't do that." Instead they based opinions off offers and personal judgement.People keep telling me they're gonna buy me an ale. They never do.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's culture. And the Elves.
Help make this compilation complete!
Compilation of Ideas and Suggestions2 -
Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!NaciremaDiputs wrote: »Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.
In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.
This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.
Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.
Drop rates are limiters over time, so yes, since time is finite, they do act as a limit to the existence of goods. Since you are mistaken about the basics, its hard to have a discussion with you. For your argument to have merit, to approach an infinite amount of anything in game, it would take an infinite amount of players and/or an infinite amount of time...YOU REALLY don't seem to grasp the concept of infinity.
There are plenty examples in RL economics where a commodity is common, and has little value, but is still sold. Sea salt. Dirt. There are any number of items IRL that are basically junk loot.
If you continue to make wooden cabinets, you can also continue to grow more trees. There is a rate limiter in play. Same for the game, there are rate limiter to how fast you can harv, how fast you can craft, etc. These limiters are controlled by the devs and can be ADJUSTED if problematic. Again, for an item to appear an infinite INFINITE number of times, it would take INFINITE TIME. The game isn't going to be around that long. So since WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH INFINITE ANYTHING, and yes, you really need to grasp that point, there is no reason supply and demand in an open and efficient market wont work JUST FINE.
The ENTIRE issue is that the devs are afraid certain rare loot will become more easily accessible in an open AH market. There are much better solutions for this than hamstringing the market...like adjusting the drop rate, which is AGAIN, a RATE LIMITER over time, and since time and players ARE NOT INFINITE, it DOES LIMIT the amount of any item in the game. If that isn't enough, then make it bind to account. Problem solved, market still intact with open, efficient pricing and competition.Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 11:05PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.0 -
alphawolph✭✭✭Yes!We have a player based economy and minimised inflation from the buy low sell high concept of an AH.
Plus, I enjoy the trading so much. You get to haggle and people pay what they feel it's worth; accept what they need. That makes a great economy. Nobody is there to say "That motif is worth 3k on AH, I can't do that." Instead they based opinions off offers and personal judgement.
This is exactly why I vendor everything I don't put in the guild store. I don't haggle. If I ask for 3k your paying 3k or buying somewhere else.
This is why I know with out looking, stacks of ore vendor for 400g. I would vendor all I had before haggling to get 600g a stack. Every time.
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Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!alphawolph wrote: »We have a player based economy and minimised inflation from the buy low sell high concept of an AH.
Plus, I enjoy the trading so much. You get to haggle and people pay what they feel it's worth; accept what they need. That makes a great economy. Nobody is there to say "That motif is worth 3k on AH, I can't do that." Instead they based opinions off offers and personal judgement.
This is exactly why I vendor everything I don't put in the guild store. I don't haggle. If I ask for 3k your paying 3k or buying somewhere else.
This is why I know with out looking, stacks of ore vendor for 400g. I would vendor all I had before haggling to get 600g a stack. Every time.
Players are used to the convenience of an AH, and when you couple that lack of convenience with tight inventory constraints depending on your playstyle, ALOT of players just vendor to get rid of it...
THIS IS BAD, because it introduces MORE GOLD into the game via the vendor, which inflates the money supply faster. Consider the other option, where an easy, open AH would allow you to slap the ore stack up for sale...where another player buys it, and the transaction is TAXED in the system, providing a GOLD SINK, with NO NEW gold creation. AHs are ANTI inflationary...and one of the best anti inflation tools going, because they PROMOTE transactions, and for each transaction, they REMOVE gold from the system.Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 11:17PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.0 -
Brennan✭✭✭No!alphawolph wrote: »We have a player based economy and minimised inflation from the buy low sell high concept of an AH.
Plus, I enjoy the trading so much. You get to haggle and people pay what they feel it's worth; accept what they need. That makes a great economy. Nobody is there to say "That motif is worth 3k on AH, I can't do that." Instead they based opinions off offers and personal judgement.
This is exactly why I vendor everything I don't put in the guild store. I don't haggle. If I ask for 3k your paying 3k or buying somewhere else.
This is why I know with out looking, stacks of ore vendor for 400g. I would vendor all I had before haggling to get 600g a stack. Every time.
Players are used to the convenience of an AH, and when you couple that lack of convenience with tight inventory constraints depending on your playstyle, ALOT of players just vendor to get rid of it...
THIS IS BAD, because it introduces MORE GOLD into the game via the vendor, which inflates the money supply faster. Consider the other option, where an easy, open AH would allow you to slap the ore stack up for sale...where another player buys it, and the transaction is TAXED in the system, providing a GOLD SINK, with NO NEW gold creation. AHs are ANTI inflationary...and one of the best anti inflation tools going, because they PROMOTE transactions, and for each transaction, they REMOVE gold from the system.
Or the devs could lower amount of gold coming from the faucets of quest rewards and mob gold drops.
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Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!There are any number of things the devs COULD do, including bringing their market system up to a standard of features of convenience that more players are accustomed to compared to other competing games in the market - like with an AH. MMO players don't like to feel like a games features are taking them backwards in convenience or functionality.
Releasing tweets about officially sponsoring third party auction clearing houses just isn't going to cut it. But at least they are beginning to publicly admit they have a problem.Edited by Dyvim on May 12, 2014 11:44PMAngels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.0 -
Dyvim✭✭✭Yes!NaciremaDiputs wrote: »Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.
In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.
This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.
Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.
EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...
Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.
I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Walmart, or Costco, or Sams club from an economics or consumer point of view unless you have some other agenda with an axe to grind. They bring efficiencies of scale to markets with more competitive prices.
There is NOTHING wrong with letting supply/demand/price curves do their thing in a market. Your edit assumes that demand wont be appreciable as well - remember the demand for decons, on top of any other demand for a given item. But if there is a lot of an item then it should have a price drop. That is how a market works.
Also, you still aren't appreciating that by impacting drop rates, devs impact availability. So lower drop rates will make items more scarce. You also haven't responded to the method of using bind to account mechanics, which will effectively take items out of the market, since the game has repairable decay. That is a far superior solution than breaking your games economy.
Also, you talk as if the goods will magically be distributed to these smaller guild markets in some efficient manner...they wont, so you will have huge, needless price inefficiencies or product gluts or product scarcities, all needlessly, because of artificial market barriers. Also, since you like to inappropriately throw around the infinite term, no matter how many of these craptastic small inefficient markets you have, with "infinite" items they would all be flooded once your rare loot reaches junk loot status...THUS YOU INTRODUCE OTHER MECHNANICS to make sure that doesn't happen, like bind to account. Screwing with the market and making transactions less transparent, providing less information about efficient pricing to buyers and sellers, is the LAST, absolute LAST thing you should try.Angels are bright still, though the brightest fell... -S.1 -
Yes!The people voting no are complete idiots. They are the same idiots that voted Bush jr into office and don't want universal healthcare. We need to start sterilizing all these people so they can stop birthing more idiot children to continue their idiocracy.1
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Brennan✭✭✭No!kofixb16_ESO wrote: »The people voting no are complete idiots. They are the same idiots that voted Bush jr into office and don't want universal healthcare. We need to start sterilizing all these people so they can stop birthing more idiot children to continue their idiocracy.
LOL.
"You don't agree with my opinion so you're an idiot that should be sterilized."
"People against the AH are right wing, tea-bagger, nut jobs!"
This is just a top notch argument to support your case for an AH.
LOL.4 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes!alphawolph wrote: »We have a player based economy and minimised inflation from the buy low sell high concept of an AH.
Plus, I enjoy the trading so much. You get to haggle and people pay what they feel it's worth; accept what they need. That makes a great economy. Nobody is there to say "That motif is worth 3k on AH, I can't do that." Instead they based opinions off offers and personal judgement.
This is exactly why I vendor everything I don't put in the guild store. I don't haggle. If I ask for 3k your paying 3k or buying somewhere else.
This is why I know with out looking, stacks of ore vendor for 400g. I would vendor all I had before haggling to get 600g a stack. Every time.
Same here Alpha. I get enough of arguing about money in real life. I got no energy or desire to do it on my video games too.
The worst is when people tell me to make an offer. For some reason that just drives me nuts. If you are going to try and sell something please tell people how much you want for it and not expect them to guess.Edited by Jeremy on May 13, 2014 1:57AM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes!NaciremaDiputs wrote: »Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.
In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.
This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.
Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.
EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...
Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.
I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.
All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.Edited by Jeremy on May 13, 2014 1:23AM0 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes!Don't understand why we don't have a server-wide AH. Part of the problem is that the guild store is half-assed at best.
Why do weapons and armour appear under the 'materials' tab ?
Why do we have to use mods to search for items by name - surely that is the most basic of search functions.
Also, why is the materials tab the only one without additional category drop-down bars ?
And restricting selling to 500 people maximum - (trading guilds - I don't see them getting a pvp keep store, do you ?) that is ridiculous.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.1