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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Public formal confirmation that griefing and bullying isn't against Code of Conduct
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Djennku✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unpopular thought but a fact: a dps just using light attacks is doing their job, which is damage, and unless the dungeon or content requires more dps than they and the rest of the group can dish out (it is a team effort after all) or you can't ever pass, then they aren't being a hinderance at all and are pulling their weight, regardless of you being used to a faster pace.
Another thing I want to point out is that some people who are not nice or honest will make a stink about getting kicked or be dishonest about a random dungeon run. I'm not insinuating that OP is one of these at all, just want to point out that it goes both ways, moral here is learn the full story before making judgement or taking sides.
My two cents.@Djennku, PCNA.
Grand Master crafter, all styles and all furnishing plans known pre U41.
Vamp and WW bites available for players.
Shoot me an in-game mail if you need anything, happy to help!2 -
frogthroat✭✭✭✭
You missed the biggest point: random groups are random. Do not expect one specific way when grouping up with strangers. You cannot make a general rule one way or another when no rules are established beforehand.Did I catch everything?
Which is a good thing. If someone is offline, refuses to play or otherwise makes everyone else's experience worse, players can democratically vote to kick the problem player as long as the vote is unanimous.1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
Since a PUG consists of strangers, it is always possible that some players want to exploit it. The only way to avoid people behaving in ways you don't like is to play single player games.
I have been doing new dungeons as blind run for quite some time now. That is part of the fun, not knowing what is ahead and trying to figure out the mechanics. But I organise it with my guild beforehand. Often well before the dungeon is even released.2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
If you go with random players, their goals may not align with yours so it might be they expect you to already know the mechanics. That's why guilds exist. That's why they added the group finder. And of course, that's why 3rd party tools like Discord servers exist.
If you go with random people, expect random. You cannot force your way of playing on them. They cannot force it on you.
Some dungeons have DPS checks. Others have heal checks. And many are quite demanding on the tank in higher difficulties. And yet some can be completed using only light attacks.3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
Often high dps allows you to skip mechanics.
This is more applicable for veteran trials to ensure a smooth run. If a normal trial does that, the trial lead is taking the game a bit too seriously.4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
If you don't want to bother with optimisation, join a learning trial instead of a perfected gear farm run or HM run. Let those who want to optimise optimise.
Huh? Never had that with pugs. But I do see some raid leads asking to join Discord for a vet trial run, although that is rare.5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
Sometimes, depending on who is grouped with you. Did I mention that random groups are random? This starts to sound like you don't actually have a problem with the game, but with players. Not everyone plays like you want them to.6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
I'm sorry, where did you get that from? A guild may reduce the need to run with PUGs but if you are in a guild and run with PUGs, the random group is still random and has nothing to do with you being in a guild.7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
It's the "group" in "group dungeon".M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
Easy. Learn it beforehand. If you are absolutely against all the helpful tools people have created: the guilds, the youtube tutorials, the written tutorials, and everything else, you still have one more tool ZOS has provided: the group finder.How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics?
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own group there where the goal of the run is clearly indicated. You don't even need to join a guild or any discord server.
This one doesn't either. Those are extra tools people can use. Some players may demand that but then you can decide if you want to oblige or not. It's up to you.No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game.
Since time immemorial the dungeons have had a mini-tutorial showing the main mechanic of the boss just before the boss.If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.
But there is now the group finder. You can make your listing looking for people willing to learn with you. Typically the term is "blind run" if you want people who have not been there before and have not read about the dungeon anywhere.
Sorry but all of this sounds like you want the benefits of a guild run tailored to your specific needs without actually using any of the tools either in-game or 3rd party. You have to remember you are playing a multiplayer game. Other players are not NPCs. They have their own goals and that's why if you don't want a random experience, you need to cooperate and communicate beforehand.
1 -
Tyralbin✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.
What I don't understand is why this wasn't investigated when they raised the two initial tickets. Why now, after creating a forum post, is the matter being investigated? Were the initial tickets raised by OP even reviewed by a human or were they screened out by AI?
The initial tickets are replied to immediately by an automated response.
The reason for this is just in case the error have corrected itself.
In regards to a ticket you should always respond to the original email for that ticket. I think the responses are then looked at by human eyes. If you send another ticket then the original will be closed starting the process all over again.
Edited by Tyralbin on August 28, 2025 2:33PMLive a little love a lot send all your gold to this Imperials pot.0 -
shadoza✭✭✭frogthroat wrote: »
You missed the biggest point: random groups are random. Do not expect one specific way when grouping up with strangers. You cannot make a general rule one way or another when no rules are established beforehand.Did I catch everything?
Which is a good thing. If someone is offline, refuses to play or otherwise makes everyone else's experience worse, players can democratically vote to kick the problem player as long as the vote is unanimous.1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
Since a PUG consists of strangers, it is always possible that some players want to exploit it. The only way to avoid people behaving in ways you don't like is to play single player games.
I have been doing new dungeons as blind run for quite some time now. That is part of the fun, not knowing what is ahead and trying to figure out the mechanics. But I organise it with my guild beforehand. Often well before the dungeon is even released.2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
If you go with random players, their goals may not align with yours so it might be they expect you to already know the mechanics. That's why guilds exist. That's why they added the group finder. And of course, that's why 3rd party tools like Discord servers exist.
If you go with random people, expect random. You cannot force your way of playing on them. They cannot force it on you.
Some dungeons have DPS checks. Others have heal checks. And many are quite demanding on the tank in higher difficulties. And yet some can be completed using only light attacks.3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
Often high dps allows you to skip mechanics.
This is more applicable for veteran trials to ensure a smooth run. If a normal trial does that, the trial lead is taking the game a bit too seriously.4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
If you don't want to bother with optimisation, join a learning trial instead of a perfected gear farm run or HM run. Let those who want to optimise optimise.
Huh? Never had that with pugs. But I do see some raid leads asking to join Discord for a vet trial run, although that is rare.5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
Sometimes, depending on who is grouped with you. Did I mention that random groups are random? This starts to sound like you don't actually have a problem with the game, but with players. Not everyone plays like you want them to.6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
I'm sorry, where did you get that from? A guild may reduce the need to run with PUGs but if you are in a guild and run with PUGs, the random group is still random and has nothing to do with you being in a guild.7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
It's the "group" in "group dungeon".M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
Easy. Learn it beforehand. If you are absolutely against all the helpful tools people have created: the guilds, the youtube tutorials, the written tutorials, and everything else, you still have one more tool ZOS has provided: the group finder.How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics?
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own group there where the goal of the run is clearly indicated. You don't even need to join a guild or any discord server.
This one doesn't either. Those are extra tools people can use. Some players may demand that but then you can decide if you want to oblige or not. It's up to you.No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game.
Since time immemorial the dungeons have had a mini-tutorial showing the main mechanic of the boss just before the boss.If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.
But there is now the group finder. You can make your listing looking for people willing to learn with you. Typically the term is "blind run" if you want people who have not been there before and have not read about the dungeon anywhere.
Sorry but all of this sounds like you want the benefits of a guild run tailored to your specific needs without actually using any of the tools either in-game or 3rd party. You have to remember you are playing a multiplayer game. Other players are not NPCs. They have their own goals and that's why if you don't want a random experience, you need to cooperate and communicate beforehand.
You forgot this quote:
"I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play"1 -
frogthroat✭✭✭✭frogthroat wrote: »
You missed the biggest point: random groups are random. Do not expect one specific way when grouping up with strangers. You cannot make a general rule one way or another when no rules are established beforehand.Did I catch everything?
Which is a good thing. If someone is offline, refuses to play or otherwise makes everyone else's experience worse, players can democratically vote to kick the problem player as long as the vote is unanimous.1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
Since a PUG consists of strangers, it is always possible that some players want to exploit it. The only way to avoid people behaving in ways you don't like is to play single player games.
I have been doing new dungeons as blind run for quite some time now. That is part of the fun, not knowing what is ahead and trying to figure out the mechanics. But I organise it with my guild beforehand. Often well before the dungeon is even released.2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
If you go with random players, their goals may not align with yours so it might be they expect you to already know the mechanics. That's why guilds exist. That's why they added the group finder. And of course, that's why 3rd party tools like Discord servers exist.
If you go with random people, expect random. You cannot force your way of playing on them. They cannot force it on you.
Some dungeons have DPS checks. Others have heal checks. And many are quite demanding on the tank in higher difficulties. And yet some can be completed using only light attacks.3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
Often high dps allows you to skip mechanics.
This is more applicable for veteran trials to ensure a smooth run. If a normal trial does that, the trial lead is taking the game a bit too seriously.4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
If you don't want to bother with optimisation, join a learning trial instead of a perfected gear farm run or HM run. Let those who want to optimise optimise.
Huh? Never had that with pugs. But I do see some raid leads asking to join Discord for a vet trial run, although that is rare.5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
Sometimes, depending on who is grouped with you. Did I mention that random groups are random? This starts to sound like you don't actually have a problem with the game, but with players. Not everyone plays like you want them to.6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
I'm sorry, where did you get that from? A guild may reduce the need to run with PUGs but if you are in a guild and run with PUGs, the random group is still random and has nothing to do with you being in a guild.7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
It's the "group" in "group dungeon".M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
Easy. Learn it beforehand. If you are absolutely against all the helpful tools people have created: the guilds, the youtube tutorials, the written tutorials, and everything else, you still have one more tool ZOS has provided: the group finder.How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics?
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own group there where the goal of the run is clearly indicated. You don't even need to join a guild or any discord server.
This one doesn't either. Those are extra tools people can use. Some players may demand that but then you can decide if you want to oblige or not. It's up to you.No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game.
Since time immemorial the dungeons have had a mini-tutorial showing the main mechanic of the boss just before the boss.If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.
But there is now the group finder. You can make your listing looking for people willing to learn with you. Typically the term is "blind run" if you want people who have not been there before and have not read about the dungeon anywhere.
Sorry but all of this sounds like you want the benefits of a guild run tailored to your specific needs without actually using any of the tools either in-game or 3rd party. You have to remember you are playing a multiplayer game. Other players are not NPCs. They have their own goals and that's why if you don't want a random experience, you need to cooperate and communicate beforehand.
You forgot this quote:
"I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play"
No, I just took that as a (faulty) conclusion and addressed the points that lead to that conclusion. I didn't ignore it like you did to my whole post. But if you do not wish to use even the tools ZOS provides you to improve your game experience, you are left with random groups. Random groups are random and may not provide the best experience.
You have tools to address each and every grievance you have - some from ZOS, others are 3rd party. My experience is mostly positive because I take advantage of all the tools available to me.2 -
Asdara✭✭✭✭✭
✭kids remember that this isnt against TOS :
[snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by Asdara on August 27, 2025 12:11PMImagine a game with stackable maps, furniture bag, decon furniture2 -
loosej✭✭✭✭✭My hot take: the core issue has nothing to do with dps meters, vote to kick options, new players underperforming or veterans gatekeeping. It's that players aren't happy, and take it out on each other. There's no sense of community, and there hasn't been for a long time.
Veterans running a dungeon for the 20th time are unhappy that they feel forced to do so because that one dagger that just won't drop is currently meta, and they better get it fast before the next patch makes it useless. They don't want to be doing that dungeon, they want to have it done.
New players are unhappy because they actually want to experience the dungeon, but speedrunning tanks who don't taunt make it a miserable experience for them.
Neither of those groups are at fault, they're just playing an entirely different game and get frustrated with each other. Veterans expect new players to do their research outside of the game, but when those new players do so they end up running 5 year outdated Alcast builds. Content creators who keep up with all the changes and teach new players how to play the game today are harder and harder to find. Some of them have just given up, others have been actively pushed out by zos.
If only there was a system that would funnel experienced players into veteran dungeons because the rewards from normals are no longer worth their effort. People might join a random group and find that most of the time, the other group members joined with the same goal as they have.
If only farming sets wasn't a never-ending time-sensitive meta chase. People might be running dungeons because they want to do them. A veteran who wants to do a dungeon but not get all sweaty might join a normal dungeon with their 100k+ dps build and slot a taunt, because they know they'll be running with new players who will have the boss chase them all over the place if they don't. They might take 10 seconds to type "this boss has a tricky mechanic, watch out for <x> and make sure to do <y> when this happens". The veteran player might be happy knowing they helped the new players, and the new players might be happy they ended up in that specific group. The new players might even gain the courage to speak up themselves next time and say "first time here" at the start of the dungeon, instead of being afraid they'll get mocked or kicked just for saying that.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 26, 2025 1:38PMConsistency: It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup (source: despair.com)4 -
BetweenMidgets✭✭✭✭✭kids remember that this isnt against TOS :
[snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]
Not to be a contrarian since while the player in red is clearly mad, unpleasant, and a jerk... but I don't think anything he said should be against TOS. The player in purple gave a slight jab but seems un-phased, which is how I would anticipate a well adjusted adult to be, un-phased. The guy was just being a [snip] over the internet, is that really a new thing?
[snip]
[edited for profanity bypass & inappropriate content]
I, for one, would rather not having everything we do policed and surveilled to such a[n extreme] degree [snipped content from Icy]
Not trying to bypass anything, but the point still stands. Over moderation is not a good thing, and I don't believe the content I referenced should be receiving any moderation in a free society.Edited by BetweenMidgets on August 26, 2025 2:40PMPC-NA4 -
Raanbury✭✭✭randconfig wrote: »ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.
What I don't understand is why this wasn't investigated when they raised the two initial tickets. Why now, after creating a forum post, is the matter being investigated? Were the initial tickets raised by OP even reviewed by a human or were they screened out by AI?
There's no reason to make everything need review by a human, it's a drain on ZOS resources that takes away from development of new content, server upgrades/performance, time for balancing, etc.
And having the moderation be too sensitive means people getting banned nonstop for nonsense, the worst scenario.
I'd rather there be a few missed reports of bad/actionable behavior, than everything under the sun being actioned upon.
Quite frankly I disagree.
We're dealing with humans and that means humans should review accordingly. Furthermore, I fail to see how customer service/moderation in anyway impacts game content, server maintenance and balancing. Unless I've missed something these are two completely different teams.
Eye of the Queen2 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭I started reading this thread because I wanted to know what was and was not considered bullying.
The more I read, the easier it was to make a decision.
1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
Did I catch everything?
I have considered giving group dungeons another try more than a few times. After reading this thread with hopes do determine what actions I should be aware of, I have come to a decision.
There is way too much, leave the game to research, learn, or communicate going on.
There is way too much attitude, arrogance, and bravado happening at the dungeon gate.
There is way too much Control in the hands of the players for PUG.
I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play
Almost every bit of that is wildly incorrect. I'm almost surprised this was your take away. You can go into any normal dungeon and do fine. It is almost impossible to lose with a bit of attention. There are no restrictions.
If you are wanting to do veteran or hm dungeons. There, again, are zero restrictions in place beyond owning the content and being the correct cp level. That is it. That being said, in random groups it'll be expected you know the fights. If you do not know the fights, you have the option to learn from a guide. You could also join a guild. My main guild runs multiple vet dungeon mechanic learning runs a week. I'm very often in those groups since I'm learning to tank and they're always a blast.
It almost amazes me that people will look at something and just see what they want to see. It's kind of obvious that you already had these thoughts since looking back over this thread I didn't see those themes. Yes, you can be kicked from a group. It will not always be bullying but it does happen.
If you don't want to run dungeons, then don't. But don't assign your bias to the rest of us.2 -
shadoza✭✭✭frogthroat wrote: »frogthroat wrote: »
You missed the biggest point: random groups are random. Do not expect one specific way when grouping up with strangers. You cannot make a general rule one way or another when no rules are established beforehand.Did I catch everything?
Which is a good thing. If someone is offline, refuses to play or otherwise makes everyone else's experience worse, players can democratically vote to kick the problem player as long as the vote is unanimous.1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
Since a PUG consists of strangers, it is always possible that some players want to exploit it. The only way to avoid people behaving in ways you don't like is to play single player games.
I have been doing new dungeons as blind run for quite some time now. That is part of the fun, not knowing what is ahead and trying to figure out the mechanics. But I organise it with my guild beforehand. Often well before the dungeon is even released.2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
If you go with random players, their goals may not align with yours so it might be they expect you to already know the mechanics. That's why guilds exist. That's why they added the group finder. And of course, that's why 3rd party tools like Discord servers exist.
If you go with random people, expect random. You cannot force your way of playing on them. They cannot force it on you.
Some dungeons have DPS checks. Others have heal checks. And many are quite demanding on the tank in higher difficulties. And yet some can be completed using only light attacks.3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
Often high dps allows you to skip mechanics.
This is more applicable for veteran trials to ensure a smooth run. If a normal trial does that, the trial lead is taking the game a bit too seriously.4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
If you don't want to bother with optimisation, join a learning trial instead of a perfected gear farm run or HM run. Let those who want to optimise optimise.
Huh? Never had that with pugs. But I do see some raid leads asking to join Discord for a vet trial run, although that is rare.5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
Sometimes, depending on who is grouped with you. Did I mention that random groups are random? This starts to sound like you don't actually have a problem with the game, but with players. Not everyone plays like you want them to.6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
I'm sorry, where did you get that from? A guild may reduce the need to run with PUGs but if you are in a guild and run with PUGs, the random group is still random and has nothing to do with you being in a guild.7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
It's the "group" in "group dungeon".M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
Easy. Learn it beforehand. If you are absolutely against all the helpful tools people have created: the guilds, the youtube tutorials, the written tutorials, and everything else, you still have one more tool ZOS has provided: the group finder.How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics?
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own group there where the goal of the run is clearly indicated. You don't even need to join a guild or any discord server.
This one doesn't either. Those are extra tools people can use. Some players may demand that but then you can decide if you want to oblige or not. It's up to you.No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game.
Since time immemorial the dungeons have had a mini-tutorial showing the main mechanic of the boss just before the boss.If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.
But there is now the group finder. You can make your listing looking for people willing to learn with you. Typically the term is "blind run" if you want people who have not been there before and have not read about the dungeon anywhere.
Sorry but all of this sounds like you want the benefits of a guild run tailored to your specific needs without actually using any of the tools either in-game or 3rd party. You have to remember you are playing a multiplayer game. Other players are not NPCs. They have their own goals and that's why if you don't want a random experience, you need to cooperate and communicate beforehand.
You forgot this quote:
"I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play"
No, I just took that as a (faulty) conclusion and addressed the points that lead to that conclusion. I didn't ignore it like you did to my whole post. But if you do not wish to use even the tools ZOS provides you to improve your game experience, you are left with random groups. Random groups are random and may not provide the best experience.
You have tools to address each and every grievance you have - some from ZOS, others are 3rd party. My experience is mostly positive because I take advantage of all the tools available to me.
Not agreeing with my conclusion does not make it faulty. Each paraphrase was plucked from this thread. I did not make the statements, I surmised them from the limited information / views provided. I did not respond to your words because my last paragraph stated I was no longer interested in the issue of group dungeons, trials, arenas or anything else that is regulated by over-zealous players rather than game conduct codes.1 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭when they start to vote kick its best to leave. the group is broken and toxic
Not always, there are definitely reasons to vote someone out. If there are major issues or conflicts I tend to just leave and not vote others out though. I'm not saying there are not many toxic groups or players. There are many, but that is the deal with any random group in a MMO.0 -
ESO_player123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭frogthroat wrote: »frogthroat wrote: »
You missed the biggest point: random groups are random. Do not expect one specific way when grouping up with strangers. You cannot make a general rule one way or another when no rules are established beforehand.Did I catch everything?
Which is a good thing. If someone is offline, refuses to play or otherwise makes everyone else's experience worse, players can democratically vote to kick the problem player as long as the vote is unanimous.1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
Since a PUG consists of strangers, it is always possible that some players want to exploit it. The only way to avoid people behaving in ways you don't like is to play single player games.
I have been doing new dungeons as blind run for quite some time now. That is part of the fun, not knowing what is ahead and trying to figure out the mechanics. But I organise it with my guild beforehand. Often well before the dungeon is even released.2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
If you go with random players, their goals may not align with yours so it might be they expect you to already know the mechanics. That's why guilds exist. That's why they added the group finder. And of course, that's why 3rd party tools like Discord servers exist.
If you go with random people, expect random. You cannot force your way of playing on them. They cannot force it on you.
Some dungeons have DPS checks. Others have heal checks. And many are quite demanding on the tank in higher difficulties. And yet some can be completed using only light attacks.3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
Often high dps allows you to skip mechanics.
This is more applicable for veteran trials to ensure a smooth run. If a normal trial does that, the trial lead is taking the game a bit too seriously.4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
If you don't want to bother with optimisation, join a learning trial instead of a perfected gear farm run or HM run. Let those who want to optimise optimise.
Huh? Never had that with pugs. But I do see some raid leads asking to join Discord for a vet trial run, although that is rare.5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
Sometimes, depending on who is grouped with you. Did I mention that random groups are random? This starts to sound like you don't actually have a problem with the game, but with players. Not everyone plays like you want them to.6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
I'm sorry, where did you get that from? A guild may reduce the need to run with PUGs but if you are in a guild and run with PUGs, the random group is still random and has nothing to do with you being in a guild.7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
It's the "group" in "group dungeon".M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
Easy. Learn it beforehand. If you are absolutely against all the helpful tools people have created: the guilds, the youtube tutorials, the written tutorials, and everything else, you still have one more tool ZOS has provided: the group finder.How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics?
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own group there where the goal of the run is clearly indicated. You don't even need to join a guild or any discord server.
This one doesn't either. Those are extra tools people can use. Some players may demand that but then you can decide if you want to oblige or not. It's up to you.No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game.
Since time immemorial the dungeons have had a mini-tutorial showing the main mechanic of the boss just before the boss.If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.
But there is now the group finder. You can make your listing looking for people willing to learn with you. Typically the term is "blind run" if you want people who have not been there before and have not read about the dungeon anywhere.
Sorry but all of this sounds like you want the benefits of a guild run tailored to your specific needs without actually using any of the tools either in-game or 3rd party. You have to remember you are playing a multiplayer game. Other players are not NPCs. They have their own goals and that's why if you don't want a random experience, you need to cooperate and communicate beforehand.
You forgot this quote:
"I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play"
No, I just took that as a (faulty) conclusion and addressed the points that lead to that conclusion. I didn't ignore it like you did to my whole post. But if you do not wish to use even the tools ZOS provides you to improve your game experience, you are left with random groups. Random groups are random and may not provide the best experience.
You have tools to address each and every grievance you have - some from ZOS, others are 3rd party. My experience is mostly positive because I take advantage of all the tools available to me.
Not agreeing with my conclusion does not make it faulty. Each paraphrase was plucked from this thread. I did not make the statements, I surmised them from the limited information / views provided. I did not respond to your words because my last paragraph stated I was no longer interested in the issue of group dungeons, trials, arenas or anything else that is regulated by over-zealous players rather than game conduct codes.
While the paraphrases were taken from this thread, some of them were also taken without looking at the context. When people tried to point out that most of them apply to vet content only (for which a player either need to be at least somewhat prepared or go with a group whose purpose IS to prepare for vet content), they were conveniently ignored. So, yes, it's possible to arrive to faulty conclusions when ignoring the context of the statements in which they were made.
That said, participating or not in group content is a personal choice.3 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry you had that exprience, OP. The group finder can be a mixed bag, some groups can be great, some others... not so much. I find it best to just bring a character that can dish out damage and also tank if needed (if there's a fake tank for example) so whatever group I'm placed in, I can push through. Also, having patience and a good attitude helps, and I know it's not always possible, especially when you just want a fast random normal run, but it helps. For instance, the other day I did a Blackheart Haven with three new players, the tank didn't really tank, so I just slotted a taunt and they enjoyed the run and quest, even cracked some jokes about the dialogue. All in all it might have been just a few more minutes than with a more exprienced group, but a few minutes are worth not ruining your mood.1 -
baltic1284✭✭✭✭when they start to vote kick its best to leave. the group is broken and toxic
Not always, there are definitely reasons to vote someone out. If there are major issues or conflicts I tend to just leave and not vote others out though. I'm not saying there are not many toxic groups or players. There are many, but that is the deal with any random group in a MMO.
Thing is it doesn't have to be that way, if basic rules where applied and enforced yes I get it your frustrated but why insult and bully someone online, or call theme names of which I won't put here, or kick them out cause they don't meet x y and z expectations for being a good player when the gear they need to be good is in that group event, also a solution was given you can have the same system as it is now and add a single player mode for those areas and all I got was bulling in my messages in the game, attacks, insults, and worse from the community so far.
Issue is yes players a frustrated with how ESO is being done, long and very long-standing issues change every update, being called fake tank (which is false by the way) to being called Fake healer (Again which is fake). But that isn't the player in your groups fault for poorly designed maps, bosses, equipment that changes every update all the time, content that is good change to bad, so on and so forth. Don't want certain players in your group then only answer that can do that is single player all content in the game and those that have group options can have that option for players to join or they can single player that content.
Even WoW, the monster of the genre of games had to face that and had to make it that way for their Raids and Dungeons for the same reason this game is having toxic players in their community and even they had to make rules for it and enforce as unpopular that was amongst those that where in that group. ESO is going to have to do the same choice as unpopular or popular it is, something has to be done as the toxic community is causing issues for the community and the company as players are leaving and the toxic community is in the top of almost all their list as a reason they left. Along with the many other reasons from bad content, constant changes, to rules not being enforced, to being enforced on innocent players that did nothing wrong but allowed to happen to those with a history of abuse or rule breaking, the list is long trust me, and Zenimax and the staff at some point will have to do something to cause change, removing toxic players for a period of time will help redoing maps will help and allowing single player mode for all dungeons and such is also an option.
Thing is every time ideas do come about either A. they experience what I have nothing but toxicity, insults, bulling, and attacks over it. or B, they are ignored nothing happens and then get frustrated and become toxic player themselves over frustration, both which cause players to leave, and the community shrink and get smaller. No matter what dealing with this issue at some point will have to be done the sooner the better.0 -
frogthroat✭✭✭✭
Many people, me included, have tried to explain you where you went wrong.Not agreeing with my conclusion does not make it faulty. Each paraphrase was plucked from this thread. I did not make the statements, I surmised them from the limited information / views provided.
Yet you were compelled to write quite a bit before that comment. Why write so much if everything you say can be ignored?I did not respond to your words because my last paragraph stated I was no longer interested in the issue of group dungeons, trials, arenas or anything else that is regulated by over-zealous players rather than game conduct codes.
The reason I am not letting this go is because this is a public forum. Other people read this and might get a wrong picture from your post. The things you listed using creative interpretation were giving an image all the issues are universal and the norm. It conflated everything from random normal dungeons to optimised veteran trial runs into being a standard in normal dungeons.
This is a multiplayer game with other people. Any activity with multiple people will have people with different goals and ideas how to play. It's not limited to this game, or indeed even just video games. Any activity with multiple people will have multiple ideas how to proceed with the activity.
From your list only 1 and 6 are applicable to random normal dungeons. Everything else is for mainly veteran content in an organised group. I have no idea how you interpreted all the other points to apply to dungeons, but I applaud your creativity and imagination. And from the two points, 1 and 6, only the latter happens regularly. Of course there are people who abuse the voting system -- anything added into any game and someone will try to exploit it. But this voting system abuse is not typical or a norm. Nothing that anyone should avoid using the dungeon finder for.
So while you may have given up going with random people and avoid using any other tool available to you, I hope others do not get discouraged by this. Random groups are random, sometimes wonderful, other times painful, but usually something in between. And ZOS has provided many tools so you can go to dungeons in a more controlled manner. Create your own listing, look for other listings, ask in zone chat, join a guild, play with friends, etc. And then there are 3rd party solutions like Discord servers. Of course one can do only random groups via the group finder, but know that there are multiple other options available.6 -
Barto92✭✭✭Many players point fingers at DPS sharing or logs as the root cause.
But let’s be clear: the core problem isn’t DPS sharing. It’s the dungeon finder itself.
The current dungeon finder and kick mechanics allow 2 or 3 players to coordinate and remove someone from the group with no accountability, no explanation, and no oversight. That creates a power imbalance where small cliques within a group can abuse others without consequence.
This is especially harmful in random dungeons, where strangers are expected to cooperate. If someone is kicked simply for not meeting private, arbitrary standards or worse, just for not being part of a friend group - that’s a system design failure.
DPS sharing tools like Combat Metrics or Hodor Reflexes are just that: tools. Those tools don’t force people to be toxic. The real issue arises when the game itself gives players the mechanical power to enforce elitist behavior with zero checks or balances.
If ZOS truly wants to protect new or casual players from griefing, the solution isn’t to ban DPS sharing or pretend they don’t exist - it’s to rethink the kick system and add safeguards against abuse:
1) Require a reason when initiating a vote kick.
2) Prevent groups from kicking a player too quickly after joining.
3) Log vote kicks and allow players to report misuse.
DPS sharing and tools aren't the problem - unregulated vote-kick mechanics are.
@Asikoo @ZOS_Hadeostry5 -
Asikoo✭✭✭✭DPS Sharing and ESOLogs (parse checks) are the biggest problems in ESO, and here’s why:
- Why do people fake roles? Because group DPS is too low and queue times are too high.
- Why is there so much gatekeeping? Because everything is judged by DPS checks.
- Why do most groups demand Discord? To prove DPS with parses.
- Why does a raid leader pick someone else over you (or other)? Because that player prove higher DPS.
- Why do players all run the same cookie-cutter builds? Because of DPS checks.
- Why do people get kicked from HM dungeons groups most often? Low DPS.
- Why do raid leaders drop people from vtrials? Because of low DPS.
- Why are HA builds, for example, gatekept? Because they parse lower than traditional builds.
Almost every single reason for exclusion, gatekeeping, or being denied content ultimately comes down to DPS sharing addons and ESO Logs.
Without DPS addons and logs being the standard, groups would rely more on teamwork, mechanics, and trust. Raid leaders would gather mostly the same reliable players, but they’d also give chances to new or unknown ones, without forcing them to “prove their DPS” first.
The reality:
DPS sharing addons and ESO Logs are destroying ESO’s community. I’ve said this since day one. These tools have turned the game into a DPS-check simulator rather than an MMO where people can enjoy varied playstyles.
For me, that’s the end. No more money, no more logins, no more endless DPS checks, gatekeeping, or ESO Logs. And absolutely no more Discord with predators, *** like in [snip] server, or uncomfortable sexuality talks that have nothing to do with the game.
And yes… ZoS ignore all of this and what’s happening outside the game. They can’t control that, but they can avoid it. What do they do? Absolutely nothing. They don’t stop the gatekeeping, and they don’t stop players from being exposed to these servers. And why?
Because in the end, players are forced to PROVE DPS.I’ve personally been invited into servers by people I met ingame, only to find predators, disturbing conversations, and people acting like animals. What is ESO turning into, when all of this comes just because I need to post one damn parse?!…and the best ZOS can offer to game is Subclassing! RIP
Edited by Asikoo on August 27, 2025 4:38PM0 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The reality:
DPS sharing addons and ESO Logs are destroying ESO’s community.
This is not true. Console lived without add-ons for years and let me tell you, even without them it's easy to tell whether someone is pulling their weight in a dungeon or not.
From your defensiveness towards DPS checks, I'll go ahead and assume your parse is on the lower side. Assuming this, let me ask you a question:
Why should others carry your shortfall in veteran DLC dungeons and also be considered toxic if they either don't want to do so, or are struggling to make up for the difference and would rather have someone who will actually do 50% of the required DD job?
3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ishtarknows wrote: »This is not true. Console lived without add-ons for years and let me tell you, even without them it's easy to tell whether someone is pulling their weight in a dungeon or not.
On console, those kinds of conversations were pretty uncommon. The run had to be going poorly for it mostly. People weren't checking constantly.
The vast majority of the my dungeon runs on console, I had more people defend poor DPS than kick for it. It's why I don't tank.Edited by spartaxoxo on August 27, 2025 6:05PM0 -
aetherix8✭✭✭Not that long ago there was a discussion about what constitutes cheating in PvP, mostly Cyrodiil. There was some unhealthy stretching of the term cheating, to a point that it encompassed all behaviour/play style/tactic that OP was finding annoying, like using LoS to survive 1vX. This thread in a way reminds me of it.
When I need to complete a dungeon, I always use group finder. I’m to a degree amazed by the many complaints about random groups, as I have a pretty good experience most of the time. I also encountered some toxic players, but very few comparing to just casual players saying "gg bb" once the activity is complete.
I used to queue as a dd some years ago, and at first my dps was non-existent; also I had no idea. I didn’t get kicked or bullied really; I just had this vague impression that smth was wrong, then I begun to do trials and got kicked many times because of too low dps. That’s fine I can understand the reason why. But then, this isn’t my kind of content, it isn’t engaging enough for me to sweat and smash buttons for many long hours to get my perfect rotation.
So when I need a rnd vet, I queue with what I still call my fake tank. It’s basically the same toon, my main, but with taunt, chains and some sets. And from this perspective, the importance of a good dps looks very different.
First of all, I totally adore all the speed running high dps players. Can’t help it, sometimes I’m simply in awe. They are my favs. But when I see a slow quester in my group, I try to convince speed runners to slow down for a sec. Sometimes it works.
Sometimes speed runners get rude and we vote to kick them out.
I also tend to complete dungeons with low dps players, unless they are dlc and difficult. That’s really taking very long sometimes, but I guess I need to redeem myself for all the carries. I usually complain about low dps on every occasion in the chat, but don’t kick people out. Sometimes dd whisper me to complain about the other dd or the fake heal, we exchange and decide whether to vote kick or not.
From my experience, both as a fake dps and a fake tank, I find it totally unacceptable to wait till the final boss to kick someone out. The first boss is more than enough to evaluate how the run is going and whether everyone is fulfilling their roles. From my PoV it is just so wrong on so many levels to drag everyone through an entire dungeon all the way to the final boss, just to only then, after all this time, deprive other player(s) of their reward, so they have to re-queue and re-run another dungeon. Now, I didn’t see the recording or read the reported bullying in chat; I don’t know what exactly happened in OP’s case, so it’s not really possible to judge accurately. But if there are players who do that on regular basis (vote kick others at the final boss forcing them to re-run, while themselves can just complete the activity and reap the rewards immediately, while wasting other people’s time and experience), then that could potentially qualify as a violation of the ZOS code of conduct of ESO, and I would have a look at it if I were ZOS.PC EU1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Many players point fingers at DPS sharing or logs as the root cause.
But let’s be clear: the core problem isn’t DPS sharing. It’s the dungeon finder itself.
The current dungeon finder and kick mechanics allow 2 or 3 players to coordinate and remove someone from the group with no accountability, no explanation, and no oversight. That creates a power imbalance where small cliques within a group can abuse others without consequence.
This is especially harmful in random dungeons, where strangers are expected to cooperate. If someone is kicked simply for not meeting private, arbitrary standards or worse, just for not being part of a friend group - that’s a system design failure.
DPS sharing tools like Combat Metrics or Hodor Reflexes are just that: tools. Those tools don’t force people to be toxic. The real issue arises when the game itself gives players the mechanical power to enforce elitist behavior with zero checks or balances.
If ZOS truly wants to protect new or casual players from griefing, the solution isn’t to ban DPS sharing or pretend they don’t exist - it’s to rethink the kick system and add safeguards against abuse:
1) Require a reason when initiating a vote kick.
2) Prevent groups from kicking a player too quickly after joining.
3) Log vote kicks and allow players to report misuse.
DPS sharing and tools aren't the problem - unregulated vote-kick mechanics are.
@Asikoo @ZOS_Hadeostry
This would be a very myopic and poor solution.
And even if applied you would simply have those players who want to vote-kick leaving the instance and that player alone in the dungeon for 45 minutes before the rest of the group is re-filled. You simply cannot force players to play with people whom they do not want to, for whatever the reason.
It would also hyper-empower trolls to troll knowing that there was no way to remove them from an instance. I have had such types in my groups before, who just sit at the start typing and trolling. They would LOVE to know that their behavior was now completely protected.
People and players, in general, are upstanding and can police themselves. (Though logging vote kicks is probably a good idea, TBH.)Edited by YandereGirlfriend on August 27, 2025 6:25PM0 -
Barto92✭✭✭Any solution is better than current abussive mess and you don't need to disregard suggested solutions.
Also to your information - other good games literally don't have this problem and no one is 'trolling it'. False dismisal are punishable acts. Screen from XIV.
Can you come up with a better idea maybe?
1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Any solution is better than current abussive mess and you don't need to disregard suggested solutions.
Also to your information - other good games literally don't have this problem and no one is 'trolling it'. False dismisal are punishable acts. Screen from XIV.
Can you come up with a better idea maybe?
Not all solutions are good solutions, though.
Keep a log of vote kick nominations, and, like someone mentioned long ago in this thread, audit accounts who rise above a certain threshold over a certain period of time. If it is found that they are indeed abusing the system then take action.
But leave it alone for all the rest of the normal players out there who rarely ever have to use vote-kick. Most players are tolerant and have sound judgment. And, if not, then see above.0 -
Asikoo✭✭✭✭Ishtarknows wrote: »This is not true. Console lived without add-ons for years and let me tell you, even without them it's easy to tell whether someone is pulling their weight in a dungeon or not.
From your defensiveness towards DPS checks, I'll go ahead and assume your parse is on the lower side. Assuming this, let me ask you a question:
Why should others carry your shortfall in veteran DLC dungeons and also be considered toxic if they either don't want to do so, or are struggling to make up for the difference and would rather have someone who will actually do 50% of the required DD job?
"Console lived without add-ons for years."
And how did RLs check your DPS? By timing you on a single dummy… and if it took you 10 minutes to kill it, what happened? You got excluded. Why? Because your DPS was too low.
"Why should others carry your shortfall in veteran DLC dungeons?"
No one likes to carry others. And no one likes to see players pulling only 20k in Hodor Reflexes. Yes, I always kick those weak players from my veteran trials like vSS. Why not?!
So, did I reply to both of your questions? Yes. And in both cases, the main problem behind gatekeeping or kicking is the sharing (and judging) of DPS.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Console lived without add-ons for years."
And how did RLs check your DPS? By timing you on a single dummy… and if it took you 10 minutes to kill it, what happened? You got excluded. Why? Because your DPS was too low.
"Why should others carry your shortfall in veteran DLC dungeons?"
No one likes to carry others. And no one likes to see players pulling only 20k in Hodor Reflexes. Yes, I always kick those weak players from my veteran trials like vSS. Why not?!
Trials are pretty much the only time I was asked for parses and never in random pugs on console. We've managed just fine. The whole concept of calling it carrying someone who is playing the mechanics is lame. There are people who aren't ready for the content they're attempting yet and should be kicked but that's a different thing than getting mad about a group that's working and calling it a carry when the person is doing the mechs.
I'm glad on console we had a good middle ground where raid leads could see parses when it was needed but outside of that there wasn't constant micromanaging of activity finder groups for dungeons.Edited by spartaxoxo on August 27, 2025 10:38PM0 -
alakeyfoxSoul Shriven
From my experience, both as a fake dps and a fake tank, I find it totally unacceptable to wait till the final boss to kick someone out. The first boss is more than enough to evaluate how the run is going and whether everyone is fulfilling their roles. From my PoV it is just so wrong on so many levels to drag everyone through an entire dungeon all the way to the final boss, just to only then, after all this time, deprive other player(s) of their reward, so they have to re-queue and re-run another dungeon. Now, I didn’t see the recording or read the reported bullying in chat; I don’t know what exactly happened in OP’s case, so it’s not really possible to judge accurately. But if there are players who do that on regular basis (vote kick others at the final boss forcing them to re-run, while themselves can just complete the activity and reap the rewards immediately, while wasting other people’s time and experience), then that could potentially qualify as a violation of the ZOS code of conduct of ESO, and I would have a look at it if I were ZOS.
I think you are the first person to talk about this and to me that was the biggest reason for even reporting the incident. Not only was the other DPS bullied out for basically no reason, but then they kicked me for refusing their vote to kick. If so many people truly believe that its up to the players to decide whether they want to keep playing with someone or not, then why is the opinion of half the group more important than the other? I generally never want to kick anyone, 95% of dungeons, vet or not, are beatable with 2 sticks and a bandaid, and the person getting voted on obviously wouldnt want to get kicked either, so thats 2 against 2 for, yet for some reason many people in this thread are vastly biased towards the latter.
Love the idea to restrict vote to kick to specific circumstances and if people ignore them - treat it as a punishable offense.0 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭Any solution is better than current abussive mess and you don't need to disregard suggested solutions.
Also to your information - other good games literally don't have this problem and no one is 'trolling it'. False dismisal are punishable acts. Screen from XIV.
Can you come up with a better idea maybe?
There's no option there for "does not follow mechs" or "blindly hits boss without rezzing so there will be an inevitable wipe when he dies. Again."
Not being a team player or something to that effect would work as an option.1