People have been just allowed to grief in ToT, if that means anything.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MGRza wrote: »

alakeyfox wrote: »

Hello,

I would like any ZOS employee to publicly confirm to us here that the following actions do not violate the ZOS code of conduct of ESO:

1. Join a random dungeon group
2. Proceed through 90% of the dungeon until the final boss
3. Attempt to kick 1 random
4. After failing to do so, bully them into leaving the group
5. Kick the other person out for refusing the kick the other person for no reason

I filed an in-game report, which was declined 10min later after a "thorough" investigation. Then I filed another report via the website, which was closed after 3 minutes, another "thorough" investigation I presume.

Not posting any screenshots, videos or names here yet. For ZOS employees the ticket number is 250822-001611. There's a video and screenshots attached of the 2 griefers admitting to griefing us after the failed kick attempt, subsequently kicking me out last for refusing the vote to kick.

If the above does not qualify as the violation of Code of Conduct, then I guess we are free to grief every group dungeon?

I had something like this happen last week, a New player made a mistake in a dungeon, and the tank was spamming the kick the whole rest of the dungeon, and when we simply didn't agree to kick the new player, the tank simply stood still, didn't fight or do anything for the rest of the dungeon.

Shoulda vote kicked the tank when they became petulant and refused to play.

Nah, the thought of the look on their face to themselves when they saw one DD finishing it by themselves is enough for me...

shadoza wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

A couple days ago one of the pledges was City of Ash II. The dungeon used to be pretty challenging, but now days with modern builds even pugs should be able to get through a vet CoAII run without too many issues.

So there I was on my fully subclassed dps warden/necro/acanist that has 36.5k health. Yes, it's a PvP build, but with a few tweaks is plenty strong dps in PvE especially for a dungeon that, while long, isn't very hard anymore. Some pug comes into the group, complains about my "40k health on a dps" and immediately leaves the group. So the healer, tank and me finished the dungeon with just the three of us, hard mode and all....with me being the only dps on a PvP build. The player left the group before even seeing what my dps actually was. ...and what it was was plenty enough for vCoAII HM with me being the only dps in the group.

Long story short, people like to claim PvP players are the most toxic group in game. But my experience has been by far, hands down, no contest, the newer dungeon runners who think they've got everything all figured out when in fact they can't even create their own build that is better than most you find online that prove to be the most toxic.

Newbs are not toxic, cocky perhaps, ignorant to the reality perhaps, but not toxic. I believe toxic is when a player thinks themselves better than others and are using boisterous claims to boost their own persona while belittling others. Being rude or demeaning has never resolved a conflict but some fall into that mode every disagreement. I can see why the group finder is ineffective. There is much 'my way or the highway' attitude moving; then the shade falls upon those who choose the highway.
I think those that dropped out of group before the fight began because they didn't like your build are no different than those who kick players because they don't like their build. Perhaps those that dropped out before the fight are more mature in their behavior.
I also believe that group dungeons should be ended. Remove the group-checks, and open them to the public. Just make them level two Public dungeons.

The critic wasn't a newbie. They were just uncontrollably hasty to judgement and they got the judgement wrong.

I had a bad experience as sometimes happens is all. It happens with using group finder to knock out the daily pledges sometimes. Turns out it was their loss, not mine.

alakeyfox wrote: »

Meridiano wrote: »

When you accuse someone in bullying, you should really clarify WHAT was said. If I say something like "your skills are too low, dude, you are not ready for this content", this is NOT bullying.

My goal with this post was to first and foremost get a response from the ZOS team and hopefully either overhaul how reports are reviewed or clarify that this sort of behaviour is actually ok. They have access to a full video from start of the dungeon and till after I got kicked.

They just started whining about DPS when the 2nd Elden Root boss took 2min. Started calling the other DPS depressing, refusing to heal him, tank wasnt taunting etc. Once we reached the final boss, they just stood still and said "you can leave, we wont be doing this boss with you". That was after trying to kick the other DPS without saying anything other than "do you want to get kicked?". Sure we didnt melt the dungeon like some others, I wouldve been completely fine if they just said "hey, so and so, your DPS is too low for this content, you should attempt normal first" or something. If I had a choice, I wouldve replaced both of them and easily done the final boss with the other DPS and a healer/tank duo that just play their roles. In fact, I have done this exact dungeon later in the day with a much worse DPS, a tank who only recently began tanking and a healer who hasnt played in years.

I dont believe this type of behaviour should be tolerated. As demonstrated above, lots of people have come across toxic pugs, which only alienates the casual playerbase. Not saying permaban them, but something has to be done, especially if they continue to behave like this.

I agree that it is difficult to know what is allowed and what is not. When bad behavior becomes the norm, good behavior leaves the room. I think consumers do not want to play a game that is filled with frustration and anger.

Raanbury wrote: »

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.

What I don't understand is why this wasn't investigated when they raised the two initial tickets. Why now, after creating a forum post, is the matter being investigated? Were the initial tickets raised by OP even reviewed by a human or were they screened out by AI?

There's no reason to make everything need review by a human, it's a drain on ZOS resources that takes away from development of new content, server upgrades/performance, time for balancing, etc.

And having the moderation be too sensitive means people getting banned nonstop for nonsense, the worst scenario.

I'd rather there be a few missed reports of bad/actionable behavior, than everything under the sun being actioned upon.

Asikoo wrote: »

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.

"We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand."
Really? What more is there to “hear”?


- Players kick others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players gatekeep others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players demand “link all your items or you won’t join vKA”, nothing happens.
- Players require parses in Discord, removing others from the supposed “safe” rules, and force them to perform however they want, nothing happens.

So what more do you want to “hear,” and for what purpose? It’s obvious ZOS has no intention of addressing gatekeeping or punishing those who constantly do it. Let’s be honest here: you won’t take action, because you (ZoS) don’t care. So why pretend to want feedback on this topic at all?

EDIT:
JUST REMOVE THE DAMN DPS SHARING FROM THE GAME and ESOLogs, and all this nonsense goes away.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I agree some players just are overwhelmed but it is not always the case. In a group setting everyone is expected to pull their weight. There are those who are willing to learn and there are those who flat out refuse...."

The truth is simple: ZOS doesn’t just allow this behavior, it enables it. By repeatedly saying "You can always make your own group" and providing tools to dissect DPSharing, logs, and performance, you’re not discouraging gatekeeping, you’re legitimizing it. The message players receive is clear: if someone doesn’t meet arbitrary standards, the official answer is essentially "Kick them out, it’s not our problem."

No, people need to know the metrics of those in the group. If you're not able to meet the minimum DPS for a new DLC vet dungeon, then the final boss will be a brick wall and you won't finish the dungeon. We don't have all the details, so for all we know the tank knew they couldn't clear it and wanted to get a different DPS that was able to. It would be more frustrating to be forced to leave after wasting time on multiple attempts because someone in the group queued for vet dungeon content when they're not ready for it and cannot pull their own weight.

Furthermore, the only reason I could think of why someone would want to hide those metrics would be because they don't understand the basics of combat and cannot be bothered to put the time into learning light attack weaving, the vet dungeon mechanics, and/or how to properly gear to achieve a minimum DPS of 20k to 30k.

Why should 3 group members have to suffer because 1 group member doesn't put in the time to get good, the obvious answer is they shouldn't have to. Of course, I don't know if that's what happened in OP's case, but just my opinion on the matter.

Asikoo wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.

"We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand."
Really? What more is there to “hear”?


- Players kick others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players gatekeep others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players demand “link all your items or you won’t join vKA”, nothing happens.
- Players require parses in Discord, removing others from the supposed “safe” rules, and force them to perform however they want, nothing happens.

So what more do you want to “hear,” and for what purpose? It’s obvious ZOS has no intention of addressing gatekeeping or punishing those who constantly do it. Let’s be honest here: you won’t take action, because you (ZoS) don’t care. So why pretend to want feedback on this topic at all?

EDIT:
JUST REMOVE THE DAMN DPS SHARING FROM THE GAME and ESOLogs, and all this nonsense goes away.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I agree some players just are overwhelmed but it is not always the case. In a group setting everyone is expected to pull their weight. There are those who are willing to learn and there are those who flat out refuse...."

The truth is simple: ZOS doesn’t just allow this behavior, it enables it. By repeatedly saying "You can always make your own group" and providing tools to dissect DPSharing, logs, and performance, you’re not discouraging gatekeeping, you’re legitimizing it. The message players receive is clear: if someone doesn’t meet arbitrary standards, the official answer is essentially "Kick them out, it’s not our problem."

No, people need to know the metrics of those in the group. If you're not able to meet the minimum DPS for a new DLC vet dungeon, then the final boss will be a brick wall and you won't finish the dungeon. We don't have all the details, so for all we know the tank knew they couldn't clear it and wanted to get a different DPS that was able to. It would be more frustrating to be forced to leave after wasting time on multiple attempts because someone in the group queued for vet dungeon content when they're not ready for it and cannot pull their own weight.

Furthermore, the only reason I could think of why someone would want to hide those metrics would be because they don't understand the basics of combat and cannot be bothered to put the time into learning light attack weaving, the vet dungeon mechanics, and/or how to properly gear to achieve a minimum DPS of 20k to 30k.

Why should 3 group members have to suffer because 1 group member doesn't put in the time to get good, the obvious answer is they shouldn't have to. Of course, I don't know if that's what happened in OP's case, but just my opinion on the matter.

DPS sharing does far more harm than good. Instead of motivating people to improve, it just becomes another tool for gatekeeping, shaming, and kicking before anyone even has a fair chance to learn. And the worst part is that this doesn’t stop in-game, raid leaders and many guilds that focus on HM content require players to join Discord, post their parses, and then they get mocked, trolled, or outright bullied simply for having lower DPS. ZoS has a Code of Conduct meant to create a safe and respectful environment for players of any age, but the reality is that people are pushed outside of that “safe” environment into Discord, where the abuse is even worse. All because of DPS sharing and logs.

The truth is, most groups don’t wipe because someone is doing 20k instead of 130k, they wipe because mechanics aren’t followed, or people don’t have experience with the fight. A player who’s willing to learn mechanics and stay alive is infinitely more valuable than a "parse lord" who tunnels damage and dies instantly.

If the goal really was to help people get better, the community would focus on sharing tips and guidance, not demanding logs or spamming “link parse or kick.” DPS sharing just breeds toxicity, exclusion, and discourages players.

Another serious problem is how players are pushed out of the safe environment of the game and into Discord servers just to participate in raids or HM content. Once you’re there, you’re no longer protected by ZoS’s Code of Conduct, instead you’re exposed to every single post, comment, video, or "joke" people decide to share. That’s where the real bullying, mocking, and harassment happens, all justified under the excuse of "DPS performance".

So yeah, in my opinion, removing DPS sharing would cut down on gatekeeping and create a healthier environment overall because
you can see in logs whether a player performs well or poorly in mechanics. You don’t need DPS sharing for anything, except to bully others and force players away from the builds they actually enjoy.

Tell me you never was a raid-leader in vet trials without saying that.

When you have a 2 hours raid-time to farm some perfected weapons, and you want 3 runs completed because it means 3 weapons instead of 2 or 1, you absolutely don't want weak DDs in your group. As well as you don't want heals and tanks with random sets, you all coordinate their sets to make life easier for others, including you. Not to mention their skills to handle mechanics.

Mechanics, yeah, they are not even mentioned because it's a bare minimum. When you join a vet trial farm raid, It's assumed that you already know all the mechanics of your role. There's no choice of "DD who knows mechs" or "DD who doesn't know mechs", the latter is cut out from the start. I'm a raid leader and my choice is to grab a DD who knows mechs and makes decent DPS, or a DD who only knows mechs. I pick the former, ofc. You can blame me for that, sure. Deal with it.

Learning raids is another story, I say nothing about them. It's totally fine if you join a learning raid to... well, learn.

alakeyfox wrote: »

1. Join a random dungeon group

There's your problem.

When you join a random group, expect nothing and everything. I've even been kicked from nBS as a tank because I was playing like a tank. I was farming the dungeon and running one after the other. In one run the players spoke a language I didn't but I don't mind. All of a sudden, right before the second boss I got kicked. Going back the chats and using google translate to see what gives, I found out they didn't like that I, without the crown, was initiating the attack in all encounters. Apparently the one with the crown should do that. Oh well, queued again and finished farming Bal Sunnar after a couple more runs. Random group means random. Expect random.

When I was farming GD as a healer (I usually farm as support since it's fastest to get through the queue) I noticed that many, many times we port in and the tank leaves immediately. Maarselok is another dungeon where people leave right after porting in. It happens in random groups.

If you don't like random, join a guild. Join a good guild. The guilds I am in we help newer players. SuperStar, Gear Overview, ESO Logs, and CMX are excellent tools that help to improve both new players and experienced raid groups. And typically communication is done over Discord. It's a great way to share your performance so more experienced players can take a look and help you how to improve.

Perhaps consider finding a nice guild where people are helpful instead of toxic. I know there are many like that. All guilds I am in, for example. If they weren't, I wouldn't be in them.

I do most of my group activities with guildies. I go with random people mainly during boring, repetitive farming for dungeon sets. Even mask/lead/style page farms I prefer with guildies.

alakeyfox wrote: »

They just started whining about DPS when the 2nd Elden Root boss took 2min. Started calling the other DPS depressing, refusing to heal him, tank wasnt taunting etc. Once we reached the final boss, they just stood still and said "you can leave, we wont be doing this boss with you".

If they were struggling with a base game dungeon, I don't know that the issue was the dps. If they are going to team up, it is smarter to bring a dps and one support, that way you know there will be enough dps for sure. One good dps can basically solo that hardmode usually (I or II), a full group including supports just makes it easier/quicker.

What I do when I run into people I would rather not group with again, I add them to my /ignore list with a note of what was going wrong. I use the Addon Toxic Players which will alert me (if setup to in settings) when I run into players I no longer want to team with. I will simply leave the group and move on, it makes navigating random dungeons much more enjoyable. There are plenty of jerks in the queues, just keep working on getting better and doing you.

Asikoo wrote: »

DPS sharing does far more harm than good. Instead of motivating people to improve, it just becomes another tool for gatekeeping, shaming, and kicking before anyone even has a fair chance to learn

I totally disagree with this viewpoint, no one is going to get gatekept unless they are trying to do veteran hardmodes before they are ready. It is partially ZoS's fault as well though, they balance those hardest content around very small groups of players and most of those players want enough dps to bypass mechanics and such. Regular vet clears are very obtainable for the average end game player usually. Some builds like heavy attacks are less viable now, but that again is ZoS' fault. I have taken a break from bothering with the hardmodes or even trials for the most part personally as there isn't much point when the progression is too far out of reach.

I have multiple trade guilds that I can do veteran DLC trials with, some have more success than others but I can fill any stickerbook (and have) that I want to put the effort into. Finding a guild that synergizes with you would be the better option than blaming logs.

I started reading this thread because I wanted to know what was and was not considered bullying.
The more I read, the easier it was to make a decision.
1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG

Did I catch everything?

I have considered giving group dungeons another try more than a few times. After reading this thread with hopes do determine what actions I should be aware of, I have come to a decision.

There is way too much, leave the game to research, learn, or communicate going on.
There is way too much attitude, arrogance, and bravado happening at the dungeon gate.
There is way too much Control in the hands of the players for PUG.

I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play

Asikoo wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

I wanted to let @alakeyfox know that we have seen the post and are currently investigating the ticket you brought up. Everyone, please do not bring up side subjects or anything else off topic. We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand.

"We want to hear constructive feedback about the topic at hand."
Really? What more is there to “hear”?


- Players kick others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players gatekeep others simply because they can, nothing happens.
- Players demand “link all your items or you won’t join vKA”, nothing happens.
- Players require parses in Discord, removing others from the supposed “safe” rules, and force them to perform however they want, nothing happens.

So what more do you want to “hear,” and for what purpose? It’s obvious ZOS has no intention of addressing gatekeeping or punishing those who constantly do it. Let’s be honest here: you won’t take action, because you (ZoS) don’t care. So why pretend to want feedback on this topic at all?

EDIT:
JUST REMOVE THE DAMN DPS SHARING FROM THE GAME and ESOLogs, and all this nonsense goes away.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I agree some players just are overwhelmed but it is not always the case. In a group setting everyone is expected to pull their weight. There are those who are willing to learn and there are those who flat out refuse...."

The truth is simple: ZOS doesn’t just allow this behavior, it enables it. By repeatedly saying "You can always make your own group" and providing tools to dissect DPSharing, logs, and performance, you’re not discouraging gatekeeping, you’re legitimizing it. The message players receive is clear: if someone doesn’t meet arbitrary standards, the official answer is essentially "Kick them out, it’s not our problem."

No, people need to know the metrics of those in the group. If you're not able to meet the minimum DPS for a new DLC vet dungeon, then the final boss will be a brick wall and you won't finish the dungeon. We don't have all the details, so for all we know the tank knew they couldn't clear it and wanted to get a different DPS that was able to. It would be more frustrating to be forced to leave after wasting time on multiple attempts because someone in the group queued for vet dungeon content when they're not ready for it and cannot pull their own weight.

Furthermore, the only reason I could think of why someone would want to hide those metrics would be because they don't understand the basics of combat and cannot be bothered to put the time into learning light attack weaving, the vet dungeon mechanics, and/or how to properly gear to achieve a minimum DPS of 20k to 30k.

Why should 3 group members have to suffer because 1 group member doesn't put in the time to get good, the obvious answer is they shouldn't have to. Of course, I don't know if that's what happened in OP's case, but just my opinion on the matter.

DPS sharing does far more harm than good. Instead of motivating people to improve, it just becomes another tool for gatekeeping, shaming, and kicking before anyone even has a fair chance to learn. And the worst part is that this doesn’t stop in-game, raid leaders and many guilds that focus on HM content require players to join Discord, post their parses, and then they get mocked, trolled, or outright bullied simply for having lower DPS. ZoS has a Code of Conduct meant to create a safe and respectful environment for players of any age, but the reality is that people are pushed outside of that “safe” environment into Discord, where the abuse is even worse. All because of DPS sharing and logs.

The truth is, most groups don’t wipe because someone is doing 20k instead of 130k, they wipe because mechanics aren’t followed, or people don’t have experience with the fight. A player who’s willing to learn mechanics and stay alive is infinitely more valuable than a "parse lord" who tunnels damage and dies instantly.

If the goal really was to help people get better, the community would focus on sharing tips and guidance, not demanding logs or spamming “link parse or kick.” DPS sharing just breeds toxicity, exclusion, and discourages players.

Another serious problem is how players are pushed out of the safe environment of the game and into Discord servers just to participate in raids or HM content. Once you’re there, you’re no longer protected by ZoS’s Code of Conduct, instead you’re exposed to every single post, comment, video, or "joke" people decide to share. That’s where the real bullying, mocking, and harassment happens, all justified under the excuse of "DPS performance".

So yeah, in my opinion, removing DPS sharing would cut down on gatekeeping and create a healthier environment overall because
you can see in logs whether a player performs well or poorly in mechanics. You don’t need DPS sharing for anything, except to bully others and force players away from the builds they actually enjoy.

I mean, you still KNOW if someone in your group isn't pulling their weight in a dungeon.

Like the person just Light Attacking as though they are playing Skyrim (somehow, these folk still exist and are fairly numerous in the Dungeon Finder...). Or the "DPS" with a Sword and Shield using Puncture and taunting the boss, SMH.

As someone who PUG tanks a fair bit when farming gear I have basically seen it all and am very tolerant of folk not pulling their weight. But there IS a limit about how much the rest of the group has to suffer on their behalf before it just becomes martyrdom.

I strongly suspect that important context is being elided here.

shadoza wrote: »

I started reading this thread because I wanted to know what was and was not considered bullying.
The more I read, the easier it was to make a decision.
1. There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run.
2. There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon before one is allowed to run that dungeon.
3. There is a DPS restriction on dungeons (Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?)
4. Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon.
5. Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon.
6. The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
7. One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG

Did I catch everything?

I have considered giving group dungeons another try more than a few times. After reading this thread with hopes do determine what actions I should be aware of, I have come to a decision.

There is way too much, leave the game to research, learn, or communicate going on.
There is way too much attitude, arrogance, and bravado happening at the dungeon gate.
There is way too much Control in the hands of the players for PUG.

I will not be spending any time or money on any group dungeons Most of you sound like 'mean girls' who excludes anyone that does not meet your personal standards. I play video games for entertainment and enjoyment. Group dungeons do not sound either entertaining or fun.
Enjoy your game; play the way You want to play

Most of what you wrote does not apply for PUGging normal (non-vet) dungeons (farming is an exception). You need to be aware of some mechanics in normal DLC dungeons, but those can be learned by observing/listening to to what the NPCs are saying or dying a couple of times.

You definitely need to read up on the mechs if you want to solo dungeons on normal or planning to join a vet version. Nothing is wrong with research and preparation.

EDIT: to clarify, I'm not an endgame player. I've never been to vet trials and do not have any trifectas. The only vet content I finished are vet base game dungeons and several vet DLC dungeons where I ended up by accident (forgot to switch from vet to normal when joining the queue).

shadoza wrote: »

Meridiano wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Did I catch everything?

Yes and no. You catch almost everything in a wrong way, distorting the words of those who wrote in this thread, including me, apparently. You read one thing, you don't get it right, you make wrong conclusions.

- There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run
Yes.

- There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon
Yes.

- before one is allowed to run that dungeon
No.

- There is a DPS restriction on dungeons
In some dungeons, yes.

- Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?
In some dungeons, yes.

- Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon
No. Not dungeon. Some trials. For dungeons - only if you want top achievements there and you look for a static group to accept you.

- Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon
The same as above.

- The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
Depends on a group. Some try to skip, some not.

- One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
Must? No.

Forgive, I am not twisting anything. We are talking about which conduct is permitted and what the moderates consider bullying. Each thing that I wrote is a paraphrase of what players in this thread want to kick or disallow other players for. The OP referenced dungeons so I am speaking of dungeons in general, perhaps trials are included. It feels like a group of players want control of the group dungeons through their own personal vetting process. For a guild, this process is fine. However, the OP referenced 'random' dungeons so I am assuming we are speaking of PUG.

I can only hope that the ZOS does NOT think it okay for players to determine who can and cannot run a group dungeon at any level or any other group exclusive content. With the concept of an entire Vet Overland being discussed on another thread, I feel concern about what might be considered acceptable behavior within such content. If there is In fact a stat requirement for a dungeon / trial /group content, then let the dungeon test and determine that not other players. The authority to exclude other players from game content should NEVER be in the hands of another player. Never.

What you gathered from the thread is mostly related to vet content. You also mentioned that you were considering trying again group dungeons. I assume that means non-vet. If so, no one is going to ask for your DPS or to join Discord. Yes, you will encounter speed runners and farmers, that is a given. But no one is going to gate keep you from joining a PUG for random normal dungeon be it a base game one or a DLC one.

shadoza wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Meridiano wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Did I catch everything?

Yes and no. You catch almost everything in a wrong way, distorting the words of those who wrote in this thread, including me, apparently. You read one thing, you don't get it right, you make wrong conclusions.

- There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run
Yes.

- There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon
Yes.

- before one is allowed to run that dungeon
No.

- There is a DPS restriction on dungeons
In some dungeons, yes.

- Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?
In some dungeons, yes.

- Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon
No. Not dungeon. Some trials. For dungeons - only if you want top achievements there and you look for a static group to accept you.

- Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon
The same as above.

- The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
Depends on a group. Some try to skip, some not.

- One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
Must? No.

Forgive, I am not twisting anything. We are talking about which conduct is permitted and what the moderates consider bullying. Each thing that I wrote is a paraphrase of what players in this thread want to kick or disallow other players for. The OP referenced dungeons so I am speaking of dungeons in general, perhaps trials are included. It feels like a group of players want control of the group dungeons through their own personal vetting process. For a guild, this process is fine. However, the OP referenced 'random' dungeons so I am assuming we are speaking of PUG.

I can only hope that the ZOS does NOT think it okay for players to determine who can and cannot run a group dungeon at any level or any other group exclusive content. With the concept of an entire Vet Overland being discussed on another thread, I feel concern about what might be considered acceptable behavior within such content. If there is In fact a stat requirement for a dungeon / trial /group content, then let the dungeon test and determine that not other players. The authority to exclude other players from game content should NEVER be in the hands of another player. Never.

What you gathered from the thread is mostly related to vet content. You also mentioned that you were considering trying again group dungeons. I assume that means non-vet. If so, no one is going to ask for your DPS or to join Discord. Yes, you will encounter speed runners and farmers, that is a given. But no one is going to gate keep you from joining a PUG for random normal dungeon be it a base game one or a DLC one.

It is not an issue anymore. My mind is made up. I am not willing to walk into that level of toxicity even at the normal group-dungeon level. I will avoid content that requires group play, put my money where I play, and leave the moderation to the authorities.

I don't blame you if you don't want to do Dungeons of any kind in the game as you are right that part of the community is so toxic it drives player away from the game, I do also agree that those players that are being that toxic and damaging to the community need to be removed from the community. But unfortunately, I don't see ZOS doing anything at all about it to clean that part of the community up, I would also go for that all dungeons in general not only be for groups and difficulty, but also single player supported, yet again I don't see ZOS doing that either. One of those no matter what we think up to curb this issue in any way, it ultimately falls on ZOS to either implement it or enforce it, and the history on those is pretty poor at the moment. Doesn't mean it can't change in due time which it needs to change, I just don't see that happening till it is to late or it is at a point that recovering from it and doing something about it is far gone that no matter what is thought up won't make a difference.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

baltic1284 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Meridiano wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Did I catch everything?

Yes and no. You catch almost everything in a wrong way, distorting the words of those who wrote in this thread, including me, apparently. You read one thing, you don't get it right, you make wrong conclusions.

- There is a game feature that allows players to play moderator and kick another player from a dungeon run
Yes.

- There is a need to study/learn from 3rd party sources on mechanics of a dungeon
Yes.

- before one is allowed to run that dungeon
No.

- There is a DPS restriction on dungeons
In some dungeons, yes.

- Is there also Heal and Tank restrictions?
In some dungeons, yes.

- Players must share their builds or DPS before being allowed, by other players, to run a dungeon
No. Not dungeon. Some trials. For dungeons - only if you want top achievements there and you look for a static group to accept you.

- Player can be required to engage with third party services before being allowed to run a dungeon
The same as above.

- The majority of the dungeon is ignored so the bosses can be 'farmed.'
Depends on a group. Some try to skip, some not.

- One must join guilds in order to avoid being kicked or bullied in a PUG
Must? No.

Forgive, I am not twisting anything. We are talking about which conduct is permitted and what the moderates consider bullying. Each thing that I wrote is a paraphrase of what players in this thread want to kick or disallow other players for. The OP referenced dungeons so I am speaking of dungeons in general, perhaps trials are included. It feels like a group of players want control of the group dungeons through their own personal vetting process. For a guild, this process is fine. However, the OP referenced 'random' dungeons so I am assuming we are speaking of PUG.

I can only hope that the ZOS does NOT think it okay for players to determine who can and cannot run a group dungeon at any level or any other group exclusive content. With the concept of an entire Vet Overland being discussed on another thread, I feel concern about what might be considered acceptable behavior within such content. If there is In fact a stat requirement for a dungeon / trial /group content, then let the dungeon test and determine that not other players. The authority to exclude other players from game content should NEVER be in the hands of another player. Never.

What you gathered from the thread is mostly related to vet content. You also mentioned that you were considering trying again group dungeons. I assume that means non-vet. If so, no one is going to ask for your DPS or to join Discord. Yes, you will encounter speed runners and farmers, that is a given. But no one is going to gate keep you from joining a PUG for random normal dungeon be it a base game one or a DLC one.

It is not an issue anymore. My mind is made up. I am not willing to walk into that level of toxicity even at the normal group-dungeon level. I will avoid content that requires group play, put my money where I play, and leave the moderation to the authorities.

I don't blame you if you don't want to do Dungeons of any kind in the game as you are right that part of the community is so toxic it drives player away from the game, I do also agree that those players that are being that toxic and damaging to the community need to be removed from the community. But unfortunately, I don't see ZOS doing anything at all about it to clean that part of the community up, I would also go for that all dungeons in general not only be for groups and difficulty, but also single player supported, yet again I don't see ZOS doing that either. One of those no matter what we think up to curb this issue in any way, it ultimately falls on ZOS to either implement it or enforce it, and the history on those is pretty poor at the moment. Doesn't mean it can't change in due time which it needs to change, I just don't see that happening till it is to late or it is at a point that recovering from it and doing something about it is far gone that no matter what is thought up won't make a difference.

I mean, it's an MMO and one of those 'M' stands for multiplayer.

Having solo story mode for dungeons would actually be very neat for that subset of the playerbase that wants it but absolutely not should dungeons be designed for one casual person to clear on their own (you can actually clear most dungeons by yourself if you are decent and have a decent build intended for it).

People just need to have some basic self-awareness and take responsibility for themselves. Like, I would never knowingly go into a situation where I know that I am going to be a huge liability to my team and waste their time. And that definitely covers things such as going into dungeons totally blind to the mechanics and then being unwilling or whatever to read up on them if asked to. That is part of the M-for-multiplayer aspect of the game. You can't have 3 people doing the mechanics and then one space case just doing their own thing.

M is Multiplayer but not Groups. MMO is a large map for multiple players. Nothing in those letter suggest that those players must play in a group.
How can a player NOT go into a dungeon ignorant of the mechanics if the game does not provide training on those mechanics? No game should expect their players to go to a third party website to learn how to play their game. If the mechanics are going to be that prominent in the dungeon perhaps the dungeons need a first-run tutorial that explains the mechanics.