This issue isn't going to go away magically. I know this may be a hot topic for ZOS, but it's something they will need to address sooner rather than later.

Groups will take elder scrolls and never capture them, purely to farm enemies for kills. Entire groups or guilds refuse to coordinate or aid the alliance so they can grind AP. Faction loyalty and camaraderie is nothing more than a myth because the game discourages it.

The constant campaign hopping and guesting abuses further exacerbates the issue by inflating populations, deflating others, and making consistent, balanced, AvA an impossibility. ZOS doesn't need to have all the answers to fix these issues. They just need to be willing to talk about them.

I already know a few AvA guilds have been turned off by the abuses and exploits and refuse to AvA until they are fixed. If the community team or anyone could at least speak to the issue, that would be greatly appreciated. We all just want AvA to be a resounding success. As it currently stands, there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved and very little indication anything is being addressed.

Igolbug wrote: »

Taking and Defending objectives give a lot of AP if you are actually taking the objective from players.

If you are Player vs Dooring it up then you will not get a large amount of AP, which should be the case. Especially with groups(20-30 people) that go and take a keep on the other side of the map that has no strategic value whatsoever, they do not deserve to get AP when they do that and if they ever change it so that they do then it will hurt the AvA more than help.

In theory, your line of thinking makes sense. In practice, It does not in the slightest. I'll explain why:

I'll use tonight as a perfect example. When I logged off, my alliance had every single keep in Cyrodiil. Three hours later, I check in and we are losing our home keeps and all of the elder scrolls.

We have an EP zerg pushing us at the Gate of Ni-Mohk while an AD AOE gank squad is running around with the AD scroll farming kills. Needless to say, DC is getting absolutely wrecked and we are getting hit simultaneously by the EP and AD in our home territory.

Now, if one wants to gain any sort of decent AP, they will go head-on into this zerg fest and try to defend against two alliances at the same time. This, however, isn't strategically sound and is the tactics of a losing man. What anyone with a brain would do at this point is start cutting transitus, taking poorly-defended keeps, and building a counter attack while the AD and EP are preoccupied zerging.

This is exactly what my group did. With twenty people, we were able to cut transitus, take a few keeps, and alleviate pressure from our home keeps, reclaiming the AD elder scroll as well as securing what the EP and AD took in our sphere of Cyrodiil.

This would have not been possible had we not cut transitus and forced the EP and AD to confront us. Now through these efforts to help our alliance, we received barely any AP. We found some opposition, but as many love to flock to the mindless zerg of massive battles, they didn't bother to protect what is theirs.

Why should those of us who actually were the main reason our alliance was able to turn things around be penalized for doing what everybody else refuses to do? I wouldn't PvD, as many of you like to call it, if I had a choice. However, tactics and strategy dictate cutting transitus, going behind enemy lines, and refocusing their pressure points.

You don't win the alliance war by killing. You win by maintaining keeps, maintaining scrolls, and crowning an emperor. Constantly going to hot spots on the map, especially if you are losing, will not grant you victory. AP should not encourage abuses of the system and people more interested in farming kills than helping in AvA.

Not once has my group ever taken a keep of "not strategic value." However, I see mindless zergs do it all the time pushing to Arrius and Farragut when we have all the scrolls, and they purely get more AP because they are zerging against zergs. How does this system make any practical sense in the slightest? It encourages stupidity and exploiting to farm kills.

If players are actually rewarded for playing tactically and going for objectives rather than just mindless zerging and farming kills, AvA would be so much more dynamic. PvP would be happening all over Cyrodiil instead of just a few concentrated hotspots. There would be incentive to fight strategically as well as defend against those who try to cut transitus and take poorly-defended keeps.

I can only see my suggestions actually resolving and enhancing not only the AvA experience, but PvP as well. With the way it is now, PvP is absolutely thoughtless and terrible and nobody really cares about AvA and playing objectively. This needs to be resolved.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

If they want anything other than zerg vs zerg, which isn't even really pvp for anyone but the leaders, they need to reward smaller groups. Otherwise, most players will take the easy road to alliance points, and do nothing but stay with the zerg, because that way they don't have think, react or even really pay attention. The leaders of the zerg do all the work for them...

The last MMO I played, Rift, had a pvp instance called Conquest, which bears some similarities to the pvp in ESO. Because there was basically no reward for small groups and solo players (they would be lucky to get a few hundred favor in a match as opposed to many thousands for the zergers), noone did anything but zerg. The same will happen here if you reward the zergers anywhere close what those in a smaller group gain.

This is a false perception. Anyone with a decent understanding of AvA can recognize that mindless zergs are bad. Dedicating so many troops to attack one point leaves many openings for attack at other points. I do not zerg and I have never supported such a terrible tactic. Making use of a zerg merely places one at a disadvantage and makes them easily exploitable for the enemy.

It should also be clarified that a large group party is not actually a zerg. A zerg would be two and really even more large group parties all hitting the same place without any regard for tactics or planning. Very few quality PvPers would endorse such a strategy as it would be to their detriment.

Part of the reason zergs do not work well in this game, versus GW2, WoW, or Rift, is because of how expansive Cyrodiil actually is. There is just too much territory to cover and bullying your way around with numbers generally doesn't work very well.

While I understand ZOS wants to try and be fair to those who may prefer to solo versus those who actually want to form large groups and participate in siege battles, one can't have their cake and eat it too. AvA at its core is built for large groups with up to 200 players on the screen.

It does not seem fair or right, in my opinion, to penalize players who participate in a massively multiplayer fashion to accommodate solo players or smaller groups. This is an MMORPG. This is not a single player game. Especially in AvA, if one even wants to gain elder scrolls or crown an emperor, it requires the effort of the entire alliance. One player cannot do this.

I'm not even asking for solo players or smaller groups to be completely irrelevant. Far from that, actually. One of the strengths of Cyrodiil is how sandbox in nature the zone is, and how many forms of PvP can spawn out of it. That being said, AvA is the main point of the zone, and it should be the large groups who benefit the most.

The way AP works currently, there is little motivation to form large groups and actually siege as the rewards are outweighed by just playing in a small group or by yourself. This inherently contradicts what I believe ZOS intended for AvA as they want to have the largest, most epic PvP experience available in the genre.

Lol.. wanted to stop reading at the point you said zergs don't work...

You must be on the zerg side...

or else good luck defending vs 100+ with your 5..

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

If they want anything other than zerg vs zerg, which isn't even really pvp for anyone but the leaders, they need to reward smaller groups. Otherwise, most players will take the easy road to alliance points, and do nothing but stay with the zerg, because that way they don't have think, react or even really pay attention. The leaders of the zerg do all the work for them...

The last MMO I played, Rift, had a pvp instance called Conquest, which bears some similarities to the pvp in ESO. Because there was basically no reward for small groups and solo players (they would be lucky to get a few hundred favor in a match as opposed to many thousands for the zergers), noone did anything but zerg. The same will happen here if you reward the zergers anywhere close what those in a smaller group gain.

This is a false perception. Anyone with a decent understanding of AvA can recognize that mindless zergs are bad. Dedicating so many troops to attack one point leaves many openings for attack at other points. I do not zerg and I have never supported such a terrible tactic. Making use of a zerg merely places one at a disadvantage and makes them easily exploitable for the enemy.

It should also be clarified that a large group party is not actually a zerg. A zerg would be two and really even more large group parties all hitting the same place without any regard for tactics or planning. Very few quality PvPers would endorse such a strategy as it would be to their detriment.

Part of the reason zergs do not work well in this game, versus GW2, WoW, or Rift, is because of how expansive Cyrodiil actually is. There is just too much territory to cover and bullying your way around with numbers generally doesn't work very well.

While I understand ZOS wants to try and be fair to those who may prefer to solo versus those who actually want to form large groups and participate in siege battles, one can't have their cake and eat it too. AvA at its core is built for large groups with up to 200 players on the screen.

It does not seem fair or right, in my opinion, to penalize players who participate in a massively multiplayer fashion to accommodate solo players or smaller groups. This is an MMORPG. This is not a single player game. Especially in AvA, if one even wants to gain elder scrolls or crown an emperor, it requires the effort of the entire alliance. One player cannot do this.

I'm not even asking for solo players or smaller groups to be completely irrelevant. Far from that, actually. One of the strengths of Cyrodiil is how sandbox in nature the zone is, and how many forms of PvP can spawn out of it. That being said, AvA is the main point of the zone, and it should be the large groups who benefit the most.

The way AP works currently, there is little motivation to form large groups and actually siege as the rewards are outweighed by just playing in a small group or by yourself. This inherently contradicts what I believe ZOS intended for AvA as they want to have the largest, most epic PvP experience available in the genre.

Lol.. wanted to stop reading at the point you said zergs don't work...

You must be on the zerg side...

or else good luck defending vs 100+ with your 5..

Either you haven't been playing ESO for very long, or you just don't understand how AvA works. Either way, sure a 100+ can kill 5 (assuming they aren't a vamp/sorc/dk AOE death squad), but that's not why zergs aren't successful.

I'll say this one final time. Cyrodiil is too BIG for the zerg to work well. There are far too many keeps and too much territory to cover. If you zerg, you compromise every other keep you aren't defending to attack or defend the one you are. It isn't practical and it is a losing strategy.

All the EP does on Bloodthorn is zerg and they can never maintain their keeps since all they do is zerg one or two. It certainly doesn't help the matter when the game itself is actually encouraging and endorsing the use of the mindless zerg. It leads to very bad and uninteresting PvP.

Groups that take over an objective, just to sit in a tower and poor oil on the few people that trickle in crack me up

It is far easier to take the objective, wait a little off to side stealthed, and then when all those idiots come in and take it back while standing on that flag, to just run in and bomb them..

You'll kill far more then you'll ever kill camping that tower.

With that said... Clydus no one is ever going to take you seriously, Because you're a zerger.. not only are you a zerger, You do it on Bloodthorn....a server that you outnumber the two other sides you're fighting pretty much all day long.

If you had any sort of balls, you'd be playing on a server where you don't outnumber your opponent all the time..But instead you chose to play on that craptastic server, then come on the forums demanding the game change based on your crappy playstyle.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Groups that take over an objective, just to sit in a tower and poor oil on the few people that trickle in crack me up

It is far easier to take the objective, wait a little off to side stealthed, and then when all those idiots come in and take it back while standing on that flag, to just run in and bomb them..

You'll kill far more then you'll ever kill camping that tower.

With that said... Clydus no one is ever going to take you seriously, Because you're a zerger.. not only are you a zerger, You do it on Bloodthorn....a server that you outnumber the two other sides you're fighting pretty much all day long.

If you had any sort of balls, you'd be playing on a server where you don't outnumber your opponent all the time..But instead you chose to play on that craptastic server, then come on the forums demanding the game change based on your crappy playstyle.

I wasn't aware you were a spokesman for the community. Well excuse me...

Sarcasm aside, you are off topic, and your comments are in no way relevant to the discussion at hand. I have been on Bloodthorn since the first day of early access, when the campaign was dominated by EP 24/7, all the way to now.

Unlike many who like to campaign hop either to run away from PvP or to try and find whichever campaign offers the best AP farming, I actually want to build a community and stable PvP on one campaign. That may be difficult for you to understand, but that's actually the entire point of AvA. Faction camaraderie. Faciton unity. Faction loyalty. Guesters and campaign hoppers have none of these things, and merely detract the experience for the rest of us.

Either way, your opinion has been heard and there is really nothing else you can add to this discussion. Feel free to move on with your life. This is a discussion for those of us who actually want to improve AvA and make sure this game doesn't die or go F2P in less than a year.

You're not improving AvA at all... you're one of the reasons AvA is so bad...Telling me you want to improve the community on that server by stacking it with a bunch of your own side, then zerging across the map is hilarious

No wonder you want more Realm Points for Objectives..Cause that's all you're actually fighting on that server.

Could actually take this thread seriously if you understood how the game mechanics actually work, but unfortunately it seems your whole post is based on not even understanding the way ap gains work.

For some ludicrous reason you think that being in a large group is giving you less value from killing a player when in fact that player is worth the exact same amount, the difference is you have more people to split that ap worth.

Now let me educate you a little bit, i probably shouldn't bothered since i doubt you will listen, but i'm going to try anyways because i'm starting to get sick and tired of people complaining about game mechanics and changes they want when they don't even understand the mechanics in the first place.

So a player is worth ~900-1k Ap Max, Every time that player dies they become worth less and less and less AP, Now overtime without dying there value increases back to the Max, as well when they kill players there Value will grow back to max fast, this is why those solo gankers or small groups are generally worth good points since they have a good K:D Ratio, compared to zergers just dying over and over again.

The next thing to note is that when your in a group the AP gains get split among the group, all you have to do is be in range and in the group, it doesn't matter how much you did in that grp, groups all get the exact same ap as all other members it gets split, obviously people outside the group can share in this ap if they helped kill the target with your grp, which in big zergs can mean *** all ap since it becomes a double split.

Note that from what I've seen as well the split is actually quite favorable to larger groups, as it doesn't seem to be a complete even split meaning if a player was worth 900 ap and you have 10 people you all might get like 180 or 220 instead of 90, i won't claim to know the exact maths atm.

On top of that healing pvp damage also gives AP, so all those 8-16 gains you see constantly are probably more from healing ap gains, i'd almost beat on it.

Now about objectives, taking and defending objectives also gives massive bonuses, if you kill to get them that is, basically anyone you kill in a O or D gets added to the bonus pool that is split even once the object is completed D or O, so if you killed 100k ap worth of players and you got 10 guys you all get 10k ap when you cap, if you did the same with 20 players you get 5k ap, of course in a bigger group you have the potential to get a lot more if you kill a lot more.

Anyways these are some of the things you just simply don't understand maybe if you did you wouldn't complain so much.

Realistically what it seems like is your team is taking empty keeps or fighting along side other big groups and just splitting ap way more then you thing, basically being a big zerg.... i mean you on bloodthorn its 3bar dc so you outnumber everything most of the time, if your group was more effective killing players a 1:1 Ratio or better instead of just outnumbering everything to win ap gains wouldn't seem so bad, you just need to be effective for your group size.

If a Organised group of 12 can take out a zerg of 50 for great points then a grop of 24 can kill a zerg of 100 for better points or take a keep from 200 defending for amazing points.

Anyways maybe you should spend more time actually understanding the maths behind the system before you start posting all this crap about changing it.

Spawn wrote: »

Could actually take this thread seriously if you understood how the game mechanics actually work, but unfortunately it seems your whole post is based on not even understanding the way ap gains work.

For some ludicrous reason you think that being in a large group is giving you less value from killing a player when in fact that player is worth the exact same amount, the difference is you have more people to split that ap worth.

Now let me educate you a little bit, i probably shouldn't bothered since i doubt you will listen, but i'm going to try anyways because i'm starting to get sick and tired of people complaining about game mechanics and changes they want when they don't even understand the mechanics in the first place.

So a player is worth ~900-1k Ap Max, Every time that player dies they become worth less and less and less AP, Now overtime without dying there value increases back to the Max, as well when they kill players there Value will grow back to max fast, this is why those solo gankers or small groups are generally worth good points since they have a good K:D Ratio, compared to zergers just dying over and over again.

The next thing to note is that when your in a group the AP gains get split among the group, all you have to do is be in range and in the group, it doesn't matter how much you did in that grp, groups all get the exact same ap as all other members it gets split, obviously people outside the group can share in this ap if they helped kill the target with your grp, which in big zergs can mean *** all ap since it becomes a double split.

Note that from what I've seen as well the split is actually quite favorable to larger groups, as it doesn't seem to be a complete even split meaning if a player was worth 900 ap and you have 10 people you all might get like 180 or 220 instead of 90, i won't claim to know the exact maths atm.

On top of that healing pvp damage also gives AP, so all those 8-16 gains you see constantly are probably more from healing ap gains, i'd almost beat on it.

Now about objectives, taking and defending objectives also gives massive bonuses, if you kill to get them that is, basically anyone you kill in a O or D gets added to the bonus pool that is split even once the object is completed D or O, so if you killed 100k ap worth of players and you got 10 guys you all get 10k ap when you cap, if you did the same with 20 players you get 5k ap, of course in a bigger group you have the potential to get a lot more if you kill a lot more.

Anyways these are some of the things you just simply don't understand maybe if you did you wouldn't complain so much.

Realistically what it seems like is your team is taking empty keeps or fighting along side other big groups and just splitting ap way more then you thing, basically being a big zerg.... i mean you on bloodthorn its 3bar dc so you outnumber everything most of the time, if your group was more effective killing players a 1:1 Ratio or better instead of just outnumbering everything to win ap gains wouldn't seem so bad, you just need to be effective for your group size.

If a Organised group of 12 can take out a zerg of 50 for great points then a grop of 24 can kill a zerg of 100 for better points or take a keep from 200 defending for amazing points.

Anyways maybe you should spend more time actually understanding the maths behind the system before you start posting all this crap about changing it.

I'm quite aware that AP is split based on how many people contribute to the kill. As I've stated before, this means large groups would have to kill hundred players in constant battle just to equal the one kill that solo player received in AvA. The flaw in this system is the large group has to constantly be in battle and mindlessly killing. Playing objectives is discouraged.

Yes, we've already addressed there is diminishing returns. You still disregard that a solo player or a small group will receive a significant amount of AP over a large group. What you seem to fail to realize is I understand entirely how the system works. As I've stated before, it's based on farming kills.

The point of this thread is objectives are discouraged. AP is built exclusively around killing players. Sometimes, in order to undermine the enemy faction, you have to cut their transitus, or take keeps, etc.

There is no guarantee that enemies will actually protect their territory, as they love to zerg and mindlessly kill. Hence, there lies the problem that you can contribute more to the war effort than anyone else, completely crippling the enemy offensive, saving your allies from defeat, and not receive anything for it.

Actually, EP generally has a comparable population size to DC most of the time. The issue, which is entirely off topic, is the ability to guest on other campaigns and faction hopping is destroying population balance. You, yourself, are familiar with this, of course, as you are from Hopesfire and you are currently on Bloodthorn with your other former emperor buddies.

You still fail to realize what is right in front of you. AP works exclusively on killing. But you already know this, stealing elder scrolls and farming kills in Chorrol, or any building you find without actually returning your elder scroll to the temple. None of your buddies play objectively. All you do is farm kills. Do not come in here trying to explain how the system works when you, yourself, exploit it.

All I'm stating is AvA would be a lot more dynamic, emergent, and interesting if it was objective-based. As it currently stands, the best way to "contribute" is to follow zergs and farm as many kills as you can. Or, as you like to do, take an elder scroll without actually capturing it and farming PUGs and bad players. This contradicts how AvA should work where outwitting the enemy and taking key points should be rewarded, not mindless kills.

Spawn wrote: »

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

I'm quite aware that AP is split based on how many people contribute to the kill. As I've stated before, this means large groups would have to kill hundred players in constant battle just to equal the one kill that solo player received in AvA. The flaw in this system is the large group has to constantly be in battle and mindlessly killing. Playing objectives is discouraged.

Yes, we've already addressed there is diminishing returns. You still disregard that a solo player or a small group will receive a significant amount of AP over a large group. What you seem to fail to realize is I understand entirely how the system works. As I've stated before, it's based on farming kills.

The point of this thread is objectives are discouraged. AP is built exclusively around killing players. Sometimes, in order to undermine the enemy faction, you have to cut their transitus, or take keeps, etc.

There is no guarantee that enemies will actually protect their territory, as they love to zerg and mindlessly kill. Hence, there lies the problem that you can contribute more to the war effort than anyone else, completely crippling the enemy offensive, saving your allies from defeat, and not receive anything for it.

Actually, EP generally has a comparable population size to DC most of the time. The issue, which is entirely off topic, is the ability to guest on other campaigns and faction hopping is destroying population balance. You, yourself, are familiar with this, of course, as you are from Hopesfire and you are currently on Bloodthorn with your other former emperor buddies.

You still fail to realize what is right in front of you. AP works exclusively on killing. But you already know this, stealing elder scrolls and farming kills in Chorrol, or any building you find without actually returning your elder scroll to the temple. None of your buddies play objectively. All you do is farm kills. Do not come in here trying to explain how the system works when you, yourself, exploit it.

All I'm stating is AvA would be a lot more dynamic, emergent, and interesting if it was objective-based. As it currently stands, the best way to "contribute" is to follow zergs and farm as many kills as you can. Or, as you like to do, take an elder scroll without actually capturing it and farming PUGs and bad players. This contradicts how AvA should work where outwitting the enemy and taking key points should be rewarded, not mindless kills.

No your not aware of anything, you have no clue, i'm sure you just learned more from my post then you have in the last how ever long you been playing, you do understand that big groups get a bigger split of ap.. compared to a smaller group, I've tested the maths, you obviously haven't.

And yeah also your damn right ap works of killing what you don't understand is around objectives YOU GET A EXTRA BONUS DID YOU NOT READ THAT???????

And if you think taking a scroll or a node, distracting your players has no tactical gain then you must not watch the map, because drawing players to a distraction isn't just decent ap it forces players to move out of place, and lets you get more map control.

What you want is to encourage keep swapping and PVE farming lol, you want bigger groups to get more ap for doing less, basically seems like your some noob zerg runner, lets be honest mate, this thread is a troll, you don't have much clue as to what is going on.

I could go way more into the mathematics but you are just going to read what you like and bypass the data as you did with my post, you obviously just don't get it.

You continue to respond in an ignorant and condescending manner completely missing the point of the discussion. Let me put it more simply. The entire AP system is completely dictated by kills. Regardless of where you are and what you may doing, mindless killing is the key to gaining AP. AvA is not the focus in the slightest.

Are you a child? Typing in caps what is already known doesn't magically fix the problem. The problem is that kills dictate AvA, and kills do not win the alliance war. Playing objectively does. Yes, you will get a fraction more AP if you happened to be at a keep defending/attacking while mindlessly killing. This does not further encourage players to take objectives. Killing is still the core of the system.

You are not fooling anyone. Only PUGs and bad players will follow you around the map while you farm them for AP. The rest of the DC completely ignores you because we recognize you are just gaming the system. You aren't even trying to win the alliance war for the AD. You not only do your own allies a disservice, but the entire campaign. You are the worst kind of ally because you could care less about AvA and whether AD actually makes a comeback or not.

The more you respond with nonsense, the more I realize how utterly sad I am for the AD. Keep swapping wouldn't happen in the slightest if the system was more objective-oriented. Players would actually have more incentive and reason to defend their territory, unlike now. The only troll in this thread is yourself, because you exploit the system, and you do not want it to change for the betterment of AvA. You want to continue your kill farming.

I can only hope that ZOS will recognize the underlining issues with their system and what kinds of behavior they are actually encouraging. If AP was actually generated through objectives instead of kills, we would see an entirely different experience playing out. Perhaps what ZOS actually wanted would happen in AvA, rather than players trying to abuse the system and mindless zergs being encouraged to slam into each other 24/7.

Spawn wrote: »

Basically you want a pvp system based around pve, yeah your terrible, you can call us exploiters and as much crap as you want, in the end you ignore everything about my post, and just take what you want, everyone in this post is laughing at you.

Hell we are laughing at you every time we play on your server to scared to face us, bit of a joke you are, i pity you sir, in the end pvp in this game is not for you, go enjoy the trials when they come out because the fact you want a pvp system that isn't based around pvp and is based around pve is just sad.

Not at all actually. I want AvA to actually work as it is intended. As it currently stands, AvA is irrelevant and the entire zone of Cyrodiil is nothing more than a death match. I love PvP. I've been PvPing in MMORPGs for ten years. That being said, PvP does not work well in AvA because of how AP gains are generated. We could have much better PvP if players actually cared about objectives.

Continue your poor attempts at discrediting me. Unlike you apparently, I came to ESO because AvA has the potential to be the best PvP system in an MMO in ages. Most MMORPGs focus purely on PvE and raid content. This MMO finally offers something for PvPers, and is actually supported and funded by a AAA developer. This game has the potential to be what Darkfall Online couldn't be. A true PvP sandbox.

My only interest is to further what work ZOS has already started and make the PvP experience that much better. If you consider mindless death matching to be the peak of quality PvP, then you are already satisfied. My suggestions would only make your uninteresting PvP even better. In reality, you should be supporting my suggestions if you are so easy to please.

Zubba wrote: »

In short. Guerilla tactics is fun, discouraging for the enemy, and effective. Even solo fights around quest spots is indirectly slowing down the enemies progress. It all should be rewarded with AP and VP.

I think kills should provide AP and contribution towards the Alliance War. I just believe objectives should provide larger benefits. As it currently stands, this is not the case. Objectives are secondary in importance, when they solely determine who wins and who loses. This doesn't seem practical, in my opinion.

Spawn wrote: »

Alright so lets sum things up, from your original post we have proven that large groups receive more Alliance Points Value per kill then then Smaller groups, thus the only thing that your trying to prove now is that you need to be rewarded better for taking objectives.

However the problem lies in you keep ignoring the fact that you get massive bonuses for both attacking and defending, yes that's right MASSIVE, most days i get several 10k+ bonuses for attacking or defending.

Basically any smart group that's looking for big Ap gains plays around objectives, the only issue you have is your not getting bonuses for taking undefended objectives, but yet you are, you get home keep bonuses, Enemy Keep Bonuses, Scroll Bonuses, these can change outcomes of battle, you just won't get a massive straight out AP bonus, but then its PLAYER VS PLAYER.. why should you get a bonus for points for taking stuff against NPCS, i mean you can solo take a keep with no defenders..

I think that you personally need to spend more time working out the game mechanics and how everything works, i mean i was laughing my ass of when you tried to cap a blue scroll at brindle the other day, if you don't even understand something as simple as which keeps are your home keeps, its obvious your not going to understand the detailing on alliance point gains.

Basically any addition to bonuses for taking undefended keeps will result in zergs avoiding fighting and going around in a circle taking keeps well the other alliances back cap them.

In the end you may think my posts are ignorant but unfortunately for you that is a hypocritical statement as you are just ignorant of how the system actually works and i don't need to but much of a effort in to discredit you are its something you do by your self, you basically have no support from anyone in this thread, and half the things you actually want are already in play you just didn't know that they were, so yeah spend some time learning the game please.

You haven't proven anything. Unless you are constantly zerging and attacking other large groups accumulating kills, small groups and solo still give better AP gains per kill.

You still don't seem to get it, which is odd. The current system encourages farming kills and disregarding AvA. Yes, you get a "bonus" when you are attacking or defending. The problem is this is still tied intrinsically to the amount of players you are killing.

Lets use you and your friends as an example. You have your large group of AD formers emperors at Bleakers farming players. You are not playing objectively. You only have three keeps (Bloodmayne, Black Boot, and Faregyl) and you are instead trying to get EP and DC zergs to attack you so you can farm them.

A large portion of that AP is entirely from you farming and not contributing to AvA. The "bonus" you receive is for defending an outpost that you are using as a means to farm. You aren't playing objectively in the slightest. You just happen to be farming in an objective. Again, you are exploiting the system for your own personal benefit.

AvA is about guilds and players coming together in an alliance to complete objectives. Whoever has the highest score at the end of a season through having the most keeps, elder scrolls, or having emperorship, will win the Alliance War. Killing compliments this system, but only works well if the objectives themselves are relevant.

Objectives are not relevant. "Skill groups" use elder scrolls as a means to farm for AP rather than capturing them. You and your friends never actually try to help the AD on Bloodthorn and only farm kills for your own personal benefit. This is all possible because AP gains are tied towards killing rather than objectives. Those who play the actual objectives and try to win the war should be rewarded rather than the farmers and exploiters. Feel free to disagree because you will.

What was really amusing was your failed attempts at trying to take the scroll in order to use it to farm players. I don't even understand why you even play this game since you never participate in AvA. Why do you commit such a major disservice against your alliance? Do you even care that you are ruining their chances of making a comeback? That is rhetorical, by the way, because you clearly don't care about AvA, faction unity, or anything that actually matters.

If the entire AP system is rebuilt around objectives rather than kills with a "bonus" near objectives, your example wouldn't be an issue. You argue there is a reason to defend or attack, but that is only if there are zergs present. Cyrodiil is much larger than just one or two keeps. The current system limits mobility and flexibility of the map.

If one wants to generate decent AP, tactics must be discarded in favor or chasing zergs and farming kills. This severely cripples PvP and what can actually happen in AvA. By making the game more objective-oriented and rewarding players for objectives, the entire experience would be much more dynamic and unpredictable. As it stands, the game is very predictable because we all know you are just going to do the same thing and try to farm kills. That isn't what AvA is about.

The current system does not work well in the slightest. Anyone who has spent extensive time in AvA will know the various abuses and how players are trying to game the system and ignore what actually is important. My suggestion of making the system more objective-focused merely makes the tasks of the game more pivotal and discourages your play style of farming and disregarding your alliance.

I've already spoken with many in the DC about the current AP system and no one is happy with the results. People want AvA, not Farming Simulator 2014, which is what you and your friends apparently seem to love. We fight for our alliance, not to farm AP for ourselves.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I find it really hard to find any call for balance credible from someone who plays Bloodthorn DC. If you wanted a better, more rewarding fight -- you would be on another server as a DC. One that needs you, like AB for instance, and not on a server that routinely locks population every night and only sees opposition the weekends when guild events happen.

Clydus, I do consider you a cut above the DC on BT (who are band wagoneers of the lowest order most days), but seriously, try your hand at a better campaign before your complaints.

As it is, everything Alacrity does to your alliance you have coming, in spades.

Here's the deal. I have been on Bloodthorn since the very first day. I don't know if you were there or not, but it only took a day until a EP super guild/alliance came to the campaign and took over. For the first week of early access and starting into the game, the entire campaign was all red.

It wasn't fun. I didn't enjoy it and in fact, many DC players left. However, I chose to make Bloodthorn my home campaign. Through the good times and bad, I wanted to build a community and make the campaign work. Before I knew it, more DC guilds decided to transfer to Bloodthorn.

Within a few days, the playing field had been leveled, and EP wasn't dominating unchecked anymore. This EP super guild, not having fun anymore, decided to leave Bloodthorn and dominate another dead campaign without competition. This left a void in the EP and the DC started to dominate too often.

AD, never got their act together and even with the transfer of Entropy Rising and the Tamriel Foundry community, didn't seem to have a noticeable impact on AvA. Here we are a few weeks later, EP is largely an unorganized mass of zergs, AD is largely nonexistent, and many more players have transferred here to join the DC because it's an easy win.

The current state of the campaign is less than ideal. I do not support nor like the players who constantly change campaigns or guest in order to avoid competition for easy wins or to seek it. This has led to the unstable and unwieldy AvA that most of the campaigns currently have.

This cannot be resolved by the player base. This is purely an issue ZOS needs to fix. Had they decided to keep transfers at 100,000 AP rather than reducing it to 15,000 AP and limiting the ability to guest, we probably wouldn't even be having these issues.

My point, is I'm not interested in being a part of the problem. I chose Bloodthorn and that is where I intend to stay. I came here to build a community and to unify and organize the DC. I have little interest in campaign hopping wherever the battle is, as the same problems will only propagate themselves there.

I do not know you, but the population imbalances and state of AvA can only be fixed by ZOS. I have various other threads addressing these issues and why ZOS needs to get their act together unless they want PvP to be this lopsided on most of the campaigns.

Irregardless, besides the population issues, AvA has issues. I am merely addressing them because those who choose to abuse and exploit the system are ruining the fun for everybody. I am sure I am not the only one here who actually cares about AvA and wants it to work as intended.

I came here because ZOS promised DAoC RvR where faction camaraderie and working as a team mattered in the PvP experience. As it currently stands, AvA is nothing more than a farm fest where many ignore the objectives of AvA in order to try to find better ways of gaming the system and undermining the PvP for everyone.

This also exacerbates the population issues, with the entire system encouraging abuses and player behavior being manipulated by these faults. Please do not misunderstand my intent, as I'm not happy with the AvA experience anymore than you are. With that being understood, lets work to resolve the problems, rather than using exploiters and farmers like Alacrity as a means of karma and revenge.

Imperator_Clydus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I find it really hard to find any call for balance credible from someone who plays Bloodthorn DC. If you wanted a better, more rewarding fight -- you would be on another server as a DC. One that needs you, like AB for instance, and not on a server that routinely locks population every night and only sees opposition the weekends when guild events happen.

Clydus, I do consider you a cut above the DC on BT (who are band wagoneers of the lowest order most days), but seriously, try your hand at a better campaign before your complaints.

As it is, everything Alacrity does to your alliance you have coming, in spades.

Here's the deal. I have been on Bloodthorn since the very first day. I don't know if you were there or not, but it only took a day until a EP super guild/alliance came to the campaign and took over. For the first week of early access and starting into the game, the entire campaign was all red.

It wasn't fun. I didn't enjoy it and in fact, many DC players left. However, I chose to make Bloodthorn my home campaign. Through the good times and bad, I wanted to build a community and make the campaign work. Before I knew it, more DC guilds decided to transfer to Bloodthorn.

Within a few days, the playing field had been leveled, and EP wasn't dominating unchecked anymore. This EP super guild, not having fun anymore, decided to leave Bloodthorn and dominate another dead campaign without competition. This left a void in the EP and the DC started to dominate too often.

AD, never got their act together and even with the transfer of Entropy Rising and the Tamriel Foundry community, didn't seem to have a noticeable impact on AvA. Here we are a few weeks later, EP is largely an unorganized mass of zergs, AD is largely nonexistent, and many more players have transferred here to join the DC because it's an easy win.

The current state of the campaign is less than ideal. I do not support nor like the players who constantly change campaigns or guest in order to avoid competition for easy wins or to seek it. This has led to the unstable and unwieldy AvA that most of the campaigns currently have.

This cannot be resolved by the player base. This is purely an issue ZOS needs to fix. Had they decided to keep transfers at 100,000 AP rather than reducing it to 15,000 AP and limiting the ability to guest, we probably wouldn't even be having these issues.

My point, is I'm not interested in being a part of the problem. I chose Bloodthorn and that is where I intend to stay. I came here to build a community and to unify and organize the DC. I have little interest in campaign hopping wherever the battle is, as the same problems will only propagate themselves there.

I do not know you, but the population imbalances and state of AvA can only be fixed by ZOS. I have various other threads addressing these issues and why ZOS needs to get their act together unless they want PvP to be this lopsided on most of the campaigns.

Irregardless, besides the population issues, AvA has issues. I am merely addressing them because those who choose to abuse and exploit the system are ruining the fun for everybody. I am sure I am not the only one here who actually cares about AvA and wants it to work as intended.

I came here because ZOS promised DAoC RvR where faction camaraderie and working as a team mattered in the PvP experience. As it currently stands, AvA is nothing more than a farm fest where many ignore the objectives of AvA in order to try to find better ways of gaming the system and undermining the PvP for everyone.

This also exacerbates the population issues, with the entire system encouraging abuses and player behavior being manipulated by these faults. Please do not misunderstand my intent, as I'm not happy with the AvA experience anymore than you are. With that being understood, lets work to resolve the problems, rather than using exploiters and farmers like Alacrity as a means of karma and revenge.

You're aware Realm Points worked the same way Alliance Points worked in this game right?