NoSoup wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

Oh please, tell me which skills from other classes let a DK still play like a DK because they're just "sitting there and not being used".

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/14/?metric=bossdps&boss=48&class=DragonKnight

Look at the skills being equipped and tell me those skills are only there for their passives, where as the players equipping fatecarver are using them for the ability value rather than the passives....

It's absolutely ludicrous to say "oh this skill isn't an issue because it just sits there for the passives" (killers blade, mericiless, soul harvest) even though they are on every single build almost, but arcanist is an issue because you have to use the skill to get value from it.....

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

sarahthes wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

You could also easily shorten the range of Fatecarver and add a ramping damage component so that there is an actual

BananaBender wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

I actually WOULD complain about Assassination and how it's so easy to simply slap it onto any build and get DPS-in-a-CAN due to its insanely over-buffed passives.

Still sitting here wondering what the thought process was when they changed the previous Pen passive to a unique Crit% passive. That is like the most obvious driver of power creep that they could possibly have done and it stands at odds with years of previous design where they jealously guarded Crit% as a stat. Then just decided to splurge it all at once to Assassination, which was already an S-Tier line.

Like, hello, could they not have buffed Siphoning or Shadow or any of the other underpowered and struggling lines out there?

Siphoning is used extensively, just not for DPS.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

You could also easily shorten the range of Fatecarver and add a ramping damage component so that there is an actual

BananaBender wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

I actually WOULD complain about Assassination and how it's so easy to simply slap it onto any build and get DPS-in-a-CAN due to its insanely over-buffed passives.

Still sitting here wondering what the thought process was when they changed the previous Pen passive to a unique Crit% passive. That is like the most obvious driver of power creep that they could possibly have done and it stands at odds with years of previous design where they jealously guarded Crit% as a stat. Then just decided to splurge it all at once to Assassination, which was already an S-Tier line.

Like, hello, could they not have buffed Siphoning or Shadow or any of the other underpowered and struggling lines out there?

Siphoning is used extensively, just not for DPS.

Of course. But I was speaking in the context of DPS.

If you're one of those die-hards still out there trying to make Swallow Soul work as a spammable you're working with complete garbage from your class passives. It would be nice if that were not the case.

And then the whole wide world agrees that Shadow needs all the help that it can get.

nb_rich wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

The thing to understand about Arc is that it's a little more than a class because of Fatecarver.

Fatecarver isn't only an ability, it is a distinct play style. IMO, it was engineered to be such, positioned between heavy attack and light attack weaving play styles.

This play style is not going anywhere. It's too popular. And I don't think it's necessary in the era of subclassing.

I'm OK with a DD bias towards Arc. Why? Because the play style is cemented, the only alternative would appear to give every class a homogenized Fatecarver-like play style which I would hate because it would mean sacrificing other parts of the game.

And the thing is, Arc isn't necessary for DDs. There are other strong builds out there. I've seen strong non-Arc builds with Jabs and Surprise attack as the spammable, for example.

Here's a video of an off-meta build that immediately comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDa78_EM0E

Just because MOST players follow the meta doesn't mean they have to. And there ALWAYS be a meta that favors certain classes and abilities. Let's not push ZOS down the path of homogenization again. Diversity is fun for those who enjoy it.

Using Fatecarver has nothing to do with following meta. It has to do with the fact the skill can be used at range, costs nothing, easier to use then any other skill, hits multiple targets and provides a damage shield lol. Skills like surprise attack is single target, you got to be up close, does not heal or provide any damage shield, does less damage, have to press more buttons, cost more resources, have to light attack in between. Why would anyone even look at a skill like surprise attack anymore lol ?

Even a spammable like jabs which is considered the 2nd best spammable, you have to he up close, depending on the morph you either get healed or major brutality while on fatecarver you get both since you would be slotting inspired scholarship, cost more/harder to sustain. Also this skill line provides worse passives then Harold of the Tome. The Aedric spear skill line is used more for the crit damage bonus to boost fatecarver then its used for the actual skills in the skill line, just like assassination skill line.

You would think spammables used up close would provide damage shields/healing and be stronger than ranged attacks but obviously this is not the case.