DPS makeup of vKA HM runs on ESOlogs, Updates 43-46

M1SHAAN · July 30

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

SolarRune · July 30

I looked at something similar for vSS HM for a similar reason. When I starting looking at the DDs that were not Arc, most were subbed into arc and were using fatecarver.

M1SHAAN · July 30

SolarRune wrote: »

I looked at something similar for vSS HM for a similar reason. When I starting looking at the DDs that were not Arc, most were subbed into arc and were using fatecarver.

That makes a lot of sense, sadly. I expect we'll see even more of that in Update 47 because base arcanist won't be as good but everyone will still want fatecarver.

Desiato · July 30

The thing to understand about Arc is that it's a little more than a class because of Fatecarver.

Fatecarver isn't only an ability, it is a distinct play style. IMO, it was engineered to be such, positioned between heavy attack and light attack weaving play styles.

This play style is not going anywhere. It's too popular. And I don't think it's necessary in the era of subclassing.

I'm OK with a DD bias towards Arc. Why? Because the play style is cemented, the only alternative would appear to give every class a homogenized Fatecarver-like play style which I would hate because it would mean sacrificing other parts of the game.

And the thing is, Arc isn't necessary for DDs. There are other strong builds out there. I've seen strong non-Arc builds with Jabs and Surprise attack as the spammable, for example.

Here's a video of an off-meta build that immediately comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDa78_EM0E

Just because MOST players follow the meta doesn't mean they have to. And there ALWAYS be a meta that favors certain classes and abilities. Let's not push ZOS down the path of homogenization again. Diversity is fun for those who enjoy it.

M1SHAAN · July 30

Desiato wrote: »

The thing to understand about Arc is that it's a little more than a class because of Fatecarver.

Fatecarver isn't only an ability, it is a distinct play style. IMO, it was engineered to be such, positioned between heavy attack and light attack weaving play styles.

This play style is not going anywhere. It's too popular. And I don't think it's necessary in the era of subclassing.

I'm OK with a DD bias towards Arc. Why? Because the play style is cemented, the only alternative would appear to give every class a homogenized Fatecarver-like play style which I would hate because it would mean sacrificing other parts of the game.

And the thing is, Arc isn't necessary for DDs. There are other strong builds out there. I've seen strong non-Arc builds with Jabs and Surprise attack as the spammable, for example.

Here's a video of an off-meta build that immediately comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDa78_EM0E

Just because MOST players follow the meta doesn't mean they have to. And there ALWAYS be a meta that favors certain classes and abilities. Let's not push ZOS down the path of homogenization again. Diversity is fun for those who enjoy it.

I'm familiar with that build, I based my parse DK's build off of it, and I bring him to as many trials as I can. I don't play on-meta unless requested by my raid lead. The problem is not that there *is* a meta, but that the meta is far superior to other builds in most practical use cases. I do NOT want every class to have fatecarver or some other AOE channeled beam, I want other classes to have access to similarly strong AOE cleave (which *is* possible without a fatecarver-like playstyle). I do NOT care that there is a meta, I care that off-meta builds are so much less viable. I like my arcanist dps, but every dps being forced into either using a beam-based playstyle or taking a HUGE hit to efficacy in most situations is unacceptable to me. If you think making non-fatecarver builds more viable will result in more homogenization, I think we must have very different definitions of that word.

Desiato · July 30

I disagree that the meta is far superior or even that it's necessarily superior.

ESO's raid scene is SO casual that the practical meta is really shaped around ease of play and not peak performance.

I've been part of several end game communities over the years, and all the others were savage in comparison. Personality didn't matter at all in them, only performance. I remember one top clan I was a member of many years ago in which only a couple of members were actually friends. We tolerated each other because we only wanted to win. We called it a win at all costs culture.

ESO's end game is much different and skewed socially, even on the platforms with a reputation for being toxic.

My favorite zens player is Geldis, and he doesn't seem to even use beam on trash when using a runeblades build. He can perform well with whirling blades. Before U46, I recall strong DKs who could out-parse arcs on trash with deep breath and whirling blades while also being very strong single target.

I was shocked one time pre-U46 when a very talented player top-parsed trash in a trial with a Warden using shalks and force pulse !!

I was away from ESO for a while, but I don't recall a time when there wasn't a main DD class that most wanted to play, even though they didn't really need to. It's a mistake to get too caught up in esologs stats because it will never be balanced, but also because they are more balanced than the stats would seem to indicate.

I'll be happy enough with the banner meta going away, should it actually happen.

nb_rich · July 30

Desiato wrote: »

The thing to understand about Arc is that it's a little more than a class because of Fatecarver.

Fatecarver isn't only an ability, it is a distinct play style. IMO, it was engineered to be such, positioned between heavy attack and light attack weaving play styles.

This play style is not going anywhere. It's too popular. And I don't think it's necessary in the era of subclassing.

I'm OK with a DD bias towards Arc. Why? Because the play style is cemented, the only alternative would appear to give every class a homogenized Fatecarver-like play style which I would hate because it would mean sacrificing other parts of the game.

And the thing is, Arc isn't necessary for DDs. There are other strong builds out there. I've seen strong non-Arc builds with Jabs and Surprise attack as the spammable, for example.

Here's a video of an off-meta build that immediately comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDa78_EM0E

Just because MOST players follow the meta doesn't mean they have to. And there ALWAYS be a meta that favors certain classes and abilities. Let's not push ZOS down the path of homogenization again. Diversity is fun for those who enjoy it.

Using Fatecarver has nothing to do with following meta. It has to do with the fact the skill can be used at range, costs nothing, easier to use then any other skill, hits multiple targets and provides a damage shield lol. Skills like surprise attack is single target, you got to be up close, does not heal or provide any damage shield, does less damage, have to press more buttons, cost more resources, have to light attack in between. Why would anyone even look at a skill like surprise attack anymore lol ?

Even a spammable like jabs which is considered the 2nd best spammable, you have to he up close, depending on the morph you either get healed or major brutality while on fatecarver you get both since you would be slotting inspired scholarship, cost more/harder to sustain. Also this skill line provides worse passives then Harold of the Tome. The Aedric spear skill line is used more for the crit damage bonus to boost fatecarver then its used for the actual skills in the skill line, just like assassination skill line.

You would think spammables used up close would provide damage shields/healing and be stronger than ranged attacks but obviously this is not the case.

Sarannah · July 30

With subclassing... does that mean they are actually arcanists using fatecarver(which everyone likes to blame), or are they base arcanists for some passives while using other class's abilities?

Classbased stats do not really work anymore.

PS: Fatecarver/arcanist is not overpowered, fatecarver simply provides an accessible playstyle/build option for many players.

Desiato · July 30

nb_rich wrote: »

You would think spammables used up close would provide damage shields/healing and be stronger than ranged attacks but obviously this is not the case.

And I would hate that if it were the case. Let's not give the entire game training wheels.

Fatecarver is more than the cleave and the damage shield, although those are parts of the same theme I am highlighting. It is about ease of play. It is a simple rotation that is survivable and doesn't require an action every second. It was clearly engineered to be exactly that. It's basically designed to be more engaging than holding lmb.

Furthermore, it has to be competitive with traditional spammables in terms of damage or else ZOS would be back to square one. They've obvious intentionally made other play styles competitive with LA weaving while keeping weaving at the top of the pack.

My biggest nightmare in terms of combat design is all skill being removed from ESO by a fatecarverization of the entire game. Let's not go down that path. We have a decent compromise now. Those who don't want to play it don't have to. If your RL makes you play it, find a different RL or become one yourself.

And it wouldn't change anything in terms of class distribution if they did because a meta would still emerge.

Honestly, what the charts show more than anything else is how accessible vKA HM has become as the game gets easier each update -- especially u46. It's not like pragmatic fatecarver is new. vKA, in general, is a total joke now. Just like the Crags trials.

the90thmeridian · July 30

your charts show when i knew - update 45 was fun! it was so refreshing to see templars and necromancers top parses in hodors after nothing but arcanist since the class was introduced. i used to have so much fun playing my templar pre the nonsense change to the jabs animation in update 35, that fun was back with my stamcro in update 45.

nb_rich · July 30

Desiato wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

You would think spammables used up close would provide damage shields/healing and be stronger than ranged attacks but obviously this is not the case.

And I would hate that if it were the case. Let's not give the entire game training wheels.

Fatecarver is more than the cleave and the damage shield, although those are parts of the same theme I am highlighting. It is about ease of play. It is a simple rotation that is survivable and doesn't require an action every second. It was clearly engineered to be exactly that. It's basically designed to be more engaging than holding lmb.

Furthermore, it has to be competitive with traditional spammables in terms of damage or else ZOS would be back to square one. They've obvious intentionally made other play styles competitive with LA weaving while keeping weaving at the top of the pack.

My biggest nightmare in terms of combat design is all skill being removed from ESO by a fatecarverization of the entire game. Let's not go down that path. We have a decent compromise now. Those who don't want to play it don't have to. If your RL makes you play it, find a different RL or become one yourself.

And it wouldn't change anything in terms of class distribution if they did because a meta would still emerge.

Honestly, what the charts show more than anything else is how accessible vKA HM has become as the game gets easier each update -- especially u46. It's not like pragmatic fatecarver is new. vKA, in general, is a total joke now. Just like the Crags trials.

Ease of play yes while also being the best spammable in the game by miles which is now available to everyone instead of just the Arcanist class.

You also posted a 170K parse when im talking about real content In real content your not going to stand behind a boss for the entire fight (some enemies you cant get close to), have full health the whole time and not have to move, so majority of parse builds are useless and don't show any real situation. There is no situation in the game fatecarver cannot be used while all other spammables have situations they cant be used.

In real content there is absolutely no upside to using any other spammable besides fatecarver. Why use jabs when fatecarver does more damage, keeps me alive and can be used at range ? Why is surprise attack when fatecarver does more damage to multiple targets, can be used from range and keep me alive ? Why use the skull spammable from necro when you have to aim your cursor at a target, doesnt provide any survivability and does less damage lol ? Oh also keep in mind all those spammables are more difficult to sustain than fatecarver.

YandereGirlfriend · July 30

Arcanist skills are so crazily overloaded.

Fatecarver, in particular, is like the poster child for the, "Staple a bunch of random effects onto this!" design philosophy that has held sway over the game for years now. Less is more.

One skill simply CANNOT have it all. The shield and interrupt immunity needs to go, the damage probably needs to be reduced, but also the target cap needs to be lifted (because targets caps are toxic; this also applies to Jabs).

It's neat that it has its own playstyle that people enjoy but the whole point of a channeled ability is that there is a COMMITMENT COST to taking the action. With a shield and interrupt immunity this simply does not exist. High reward needs to be balanced with high risk.

And then we probably need class AOE DOTs to be massively buffed, as that is the only way, short of adding new skills, that I can think of to increase cleave potential of the other classes. The Maelstrom Staff and like Thunderous Volley provide templates for how this could be achieved, greatly ramping the base damage under particular conditions. So perhaps Lightning Flood, for example, could receive like +1000 base damage (or whatever) against targets that are Concussed or something, etc.

Desiato · July 30

nb_rich wrote: »

You also posted a 170K parse when im talking about real content In real content your not going to stand behind a boss for the entire fight (some enemies you cant get close to), have full health the whole time and not have to move, so majority of parse builds are useless and don't show any real situation. There is no situation in the game fatecarver cannot be used while all other spammables have situations they cant be used.

In real content there is absolutely no upside to using any other spammable besides fatecarver. Why use jabs when fatecarver does more damage, keeps me alive and can be used at range ? Why is surprise attack when fatecarver does more damage to multiple targets, can be used from range and keep me alive ? Why use the skull spammable from necro when you have to aim your cursor at a target, doesnt provide any survivability and does less damage lol ? Oh also keep in mind all those spammables are more difficult to sustain than fatecarver.

Charles plays builds like that in content. Many good players do. Not everyone needs training wheels. Except for the last 3 trials, they were all completed before Fatecarver was a thing.

I play full rotation melee range LA builds in content and it just means I have to pay attention.

Most ESO trial players don't like to pay attention. They like to chat and meme the entire raid. It's the kind of end game community you get when 99.99% of the game is super ezmode.

If one thinks Fatecarver is necessary, they are probably part of its target audience.

nb_rich · July 30

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Arcanist skills are so crazily overloaded.

Fatecarver, in particular, is like the poster child for the, "Staple a bunch of random effects onto this!" design philosophy that has held sway over the game for years now. Less is more.

One skill simply CANNOT have it all. The shield and interrupt immunity needs to go, the damage probably needs to be reduced, but also the target cap needs to be lifted (because targets caps are toxic; this also applies to Jabs).

It's neat that it has its own playstyle that people enjoy but the whole point of a channeled ability is that there is a COMMITMENT COST to taking the action. With a shield and interrupt immunity this simply does not exist. High reward needs to be balanced with high risk.

And then we probably need class AOE DOTs to be massively buffed, as that is the only way, short of adding new skills, that I can think of to increase cleave potential of the other classes. The Maelstrom Staff and like Thunderous Volley provide templates for how this could be achieved, greatly ramping the base damage under particular conditions. So perhaps Lightning Flood, for example, could receive like +1000 base damage (or whatever) against targets that are Concussed or something, etc.

At least you understand what im saying lol.

For massively buffing AOE dots though, I thought the same thing, but on another post someone made a good point to me which was that fatecarver users will still have access to all the skills and passives, so even if we buff AOE dots, fatecarver users will just throw some of those skills in there rotation lol.

Think we need spammables to be heavily buffed across the board, since its way more unlikely fatecarver users will use another spammable with it since people usually need the tentacle arms to generate crux

M1SHAAN · July 30

Desiato wrote: »

Charles plays builds like that in content. Many good players do. Not everyone needs training wheels. Except for the last 3 trials, they were all completed before Fatecarver was a thing.

I play full rotation melee range LA builds in content and it just means I have to pay attention.

Most ESO trial players don't like to pay attention. They like to chat and meme the entire raid. It's the kind of end game community you get when 99.99% of the game is super ezmode.

If one thinks Fatecarver is necessary, they are probably part of its target audience.

It is true that my analysis includes all players who did vKA HM, including the "lazy" ones. Let's look at a different metric then, using Taleria HM, a known single-target fight: https://esologs.com/zone/rankings/16?boss=54

Update 45, 55 of the 100 top dps were non-arcanists, mainly templars: that's a majority of non-arcanists!

Update 46, there are nine.

Now, I know that the creme-de-la-creme players don't post public logs for whatever reason, but you can't seriously tell me that all the top dps players in the public logs were using arcanist because it was "ez mode".

There is more to do re: prevalence of fatecarver specifically, but I need to see if esologs has an API that would make it easier to get the data to crunch the numbers.

sarahthes · July 30

Next patch with the banner nerf I can run my main again, so there's that.

I'll still be beaming, but I'll be on my main.

nb_rich · July 30

Desiato wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

You also posted a 170K parse when im talking about real content In real content your not going to stand behind a boss for the entire fight (some enemies you cant get close to), have full health the whole time and not have to move, so majority of parse builds are useless and don't show any real situation. There is no situation in the game fatecarver cannot be used while all other spammables have situations they cant be used.

In real content there is absolutely no upside to using any other spammable besides fatecarver. Why use jabs when fatecarver does more damage, keeps me alive and can be used at range ? Why is surprise attack when fatecarver does more damage to multiple targets, can be used from range and keep me alive ? Why use the skull spammable from necro when you have to aim your cursor at a target, doesnt provide any survivability and does less damage lol ? Oh also keep in mind all those spammables are more difficult to sustain than fatecarver.

Charles plays builds like that in content. Many good players do. Not everyone needs training wheels. Except for the last 3 trials, they were all completed before Fatecarver was a thing.

I play full rotation melee range LA builds in content and it just means I have to pay attention.

Most ESO trial players don't like to pay attention. They like to chat and meme the entire raid. It's the kind of end game community you get when 99.99% of the game is super ezmode.

If one thinks Fatecarver is necessary, they are probably part of its target audience.

I think your still missing the point my friend.

No one is saying anything about not being able to clear content. Im trying to say that there is absolutely no upside to using any spammable outside of fatecarver. No other spammable provides anything that fatecarver does not and no other spammable is better to use in any situation then fatecarver.

This game is also a MMO, if im in a trial I want to talk to others and have fun, not pay attention so much to the point I can’t interact with people im in the trial with. All the fastest times to complete any content in the game now have fatecarver in there set up

sarahthes · July 30

nb_rich wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

You also posted a 170K parse when im talking about real content In real content your not going to stand behind a boss for the entire fight (some enemies you cant get close to), have full health the whole time and not have to move, so majority of parse builds are useless and don't show any real situation. There is no situation in the game fatecarver cannot be used while all other spammables have situations they cant be used.

In real content there is absolutely no upside to using any other spammable besides fatecarver. Why use jabs when fatecarver does more damage, keeps me alive and can be used at range ? Why is surprise attack when fatecarver does more damage to multiple targets, can be used from range and keep me alive ? Why use the skull spammable from necro when you have to aim your cursor at a target, doesnt provide any survivability and does less damage lol ? Oh also keep in mind all those spammables are more difficult to sustain than fatecarver.

Charles plays builds like that in content. Many good players do. Not everyone needs training wheels. Except for the last 3 trials, they were all completed before Fatecarver was a thing.

I play full rotation melee range LA builds in content and it just means I have to pay attention.

Most ESO trial players don't like to pay attention. They like to chat and meme the entire raid. It's the kind of end game community you get when 99.99% of the game is super ezmode.

If one thinks Fatecarver is necessary, they are probably part of its target audience.

I think your still missing the point my friend.

No one is saying anything about not being able to clear content. Im trying to say that there is absolutely no upside to using any spammable outside of fatecarver. No other spammable provides anything that fatecarver does not and no other spammable is better to use in any situation then fatecarver.

This game is also a MMO, if im in a trial I want to talk to others and have fun, not pay attention so much to the point I can’t interact with people im in the trial with. All the fastest times to complete any content in the game now have fatecarver in there set up

That's only partially true. In some of these cases they run the tentacular dread build on bosses and use unstacked fatecarver only in trash.

Desiato · July 30

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Now, I know that the creme-de-la-creme players don't post public logs for whatever reason, but you can't seriously tell me that all the top dps players in the public logs were using arcanist because it was "ez mode".

There is more to do re: prevalence of fatecarver specifically, but I need to see if esologs has an API that would make it easier to get the data to crunch the numbers.

All I'm saying is that it's not necessary to run fatecarver and the reason it's so common isn't because of its pure performance. I know the good players I pay attention to play a variety of builds and prefer LA weave builds. I base this on both videos and raid parses they post.

IMO, there are VERY few serious end game guilds in ESO. Even many score pushing guilds seem extremely social to me.

To be clear, I see myself as a mid-tier player, in case anyone thinks I'm coming across as elitist. Like a lot of ESO players, I'm old and well past my prime as a gamer. But I have been part of competitive online gaming for almost 30 years, so I have a lot of perspective. ESO doesn't really have much of a hardcore end game, which makes sense.

I don't deny that Fatecarver is dominant in ESO trials, but not because it needs to be or because it is supremely performant. If it were my game, the ability wouldn't exist. But I accept it because it's better than the alternative of every class being Fatecarverized -- that's the only thing efforts like this will result in. ZOS won't reverse course on the Fatecarver play style.

nb_rich · July 30

[/quote]
That's only partially true. In some of these cases they run the tentacular dread build on bosses and use unstacked fatecarver only in trash.[/quote]

Fatecarver and is still being used and thats the point. Also got to consider people aint got time to change skills and gear and morphs in the middle of a trial especially us console players. We jump into content with what we wear and have set up which is what majority of players do. So if you asked those players that use the other tentacle morph or fatecarver, 99.9% of people is picking fatecarver. On console I personally never seen a single person use the other tentacle morph tbh with you

sarahthes · July 30

nb_rich wrote: »

That's only partially true. In some of these cases they run the tentacular dread build on bosses and use unstacked fatecarver only in trash.[/quote]

Fatecarver and is still being used and thats the point. Also got to consider people aint got time to change skills and gear and morphs in the middle of a trial especially us console players. We jump into content with what we wear and have set up which is what majority of players do. So if you asked those players that use the other tentacle morph or fatecarver, 99.9% of people is picking fatecarver. On console I personally never seen a single person use the other tentacle morph tbh with you [/quote]

Well, I was speaking from an endgame perspective, since you mentioned fastest times. Look up top parses in many trials and you will see that.

Not vhof though, three of the bosses have extra things that need to die or multiple bosses so we are using exhausting fatecarver in my scorepush prog there.

Renato90085 · July 30

vcr vka vss hard mode very easy(U40 add arc start), can use any class do it or trifectas,it why only have 70% player use arc meta in here
hard part(RG DSR SE LC) have 90-95% dd is arc or fatecarver

nb_rich · July 30

Renato90085 wrote: »

vcr vka vss hard mode very easy(U40 add arc start), can use any class do it or trifectas,it why only have 70% player use arc meta in here
hard part(RG DSR SE LC) have 90-95% dd is arc or fatecarver

I dont know where you come up with these random stats but saying 70% of people is using the same set up is exactly why we are saying this is a problem and other skills need to get buffed. I can only imagine how many skills never get used at this point.

NoSoup · July 30

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

nb_rich · July 31

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

NoSoup · July 31

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

Soarora · July 31

I think there's a big thing people are missing here. It's not just "fatecarver good", though that is one reason arcanist pulls ahead. "Subclassing" means the death of support DPS and thus more players in the trial will be arcanists... because the support DPS skills are being shoved onto the supports instead.

BananaBender · July 31

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

NoSoup · July 31

BananaBender wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

As the original poster stated, these stats are from Kynes Aegis because it's the least arcanist favoured newer trial. So yes, these stats are purposefully cherry picked, but not in the direction you think. It's well known that single target focused builds can outperform fatecarver builds in single target damage. Where the problem lies is AoE damage. Fatecarver is far superior to anything else in terms of cleave damage and it's not even close. This makes the vKA logs even more worrying, that a trial which is pretty much entirely single target focused, is still dominated by beam builds. Your suggestion to buff light attacks, even though I'm all for it, wouldn't solve the issue at hand. The merciless nerf is going to do absolutely nothing to beam builds, because it doesn't solve the underlying issue with the class balance, which is the lack of AoE options to compete with the beam.

NoSoup wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I picked Kyne's Aegis because I think (perhaps erroneously) that it is more single-target-dps-friendly than some of the newer trials, and therefore is less likely to skew towards arcanists. The numbers speak for themselves, though. It will be interesting to see if the nerf to Arc Banner changes anything in Update 47. All data from https://esologs.com/zone/statistics/14

Lets be real though, these stats are a bit cherry picked and don't really convey the real story. Look at the top ten dps from update 46 on the logs.
Out of the top 10 half are arcanists, but only 2 used fatecarver in their rotation. Yet, of the top ten, every player had assassination in their rotation. The reason you've seen such a growth in Arcanist as a base class has more to do with their skill lines complementing other skill lines better than any other class, more so than "fatecarver is the only way".

Yes, fatecarver will be greatly helping the mid tier players, but mid tier players will always flock to the easiest rotation possible even if it isn't the best option. Personally I don't see any need to nerf fatecarver and I'd go as far to say that other skills don't even need to be buffed, the one thing that can probably do with a buff which will even everything out is buffing light attacks. A good buff to light attacks will keep the mid tier players in the spot they're in now while allowing non-beam players with the skills (and over inflated egos that so desperately need to be miles above the pack) out pacing any beam build. We also need to be mindful of how the nerf to merciless is going to affect the average beam build, its a sizeable chunk of wp/sp damage they're losing which is probably going to require an added dot to their rotations to match U46 DPS.

I hear you, but your talking about the top 10 players. Millions of people play the game so the top 10 sweaty people playing in PC with mods, add ons and all types of glitchy stuff means nothing tbh.

The average every day player (a mid tier player according to you) is using fatecarver due to how its better then every spammable in the game. No spammable in the game can be used at range, do big damage, provide a damage shield, hit multiple targets, easy to sustain and requires no skill, which is what most of you still fail to realize.

When it comes to the assassination skill line, people mainly use it for the passives not for any sort of skill that can be spammed thats broken, so this is okay. You can mix the assassination skill line with any other skill line in the game as a damage dealer and still look different and be using different skills then someone else. Thinking about it now, the assassination skill line is the most diverse dps skill line. Some people may use the ultimate, some may use the execute, some might use that bow skill (the one that everyone was slotting passively) unlike Harold of the Tome where majority of people using it have to use the tentacle arm, fatecarver, inspired scolarship, whatever arena weapon skill, and cloak since almost everyone in PvE used daggers.

Well what's the issue here, is it how much a single skill is being used or how visible it is? Because when you look through the dps logs Killer's blade, Merciless resolve and Soul harvest are on far, far fffaaaaarrrrr more builds than fatecarver. Yet the issue is fatecarver? If you look through the logs and ask the question, which skills are the crutch skills based on how many people have them slotted, then the answer would be the NB skills. But no, fatecarver is the issue? Is it just because as a player you're more prone to noticing fatecarver because its more visible?

The issue is how invasive Herald of the Tome is as a skill line when it comes to subclassing. Both Herald of the Tome and Assassination are by far the strongest skill lines, but if you were to actually compare them and think why people are relatively fine with one (in PvE) and opposed to the other one. If you have a DK and you switch Earthen Heart with Assassination, you still feel like you are playing DK, because most of the Assassination's power comes from the passives and even with skills you can simply opt not to use them, and still gain almost all of the benefits from the skill line. Now compare this to Herald of the Tome, if you want to utilize the skill line, you have to keep creating and consuming crux. This requires you to use either runeblades or flail as spammable, and either fatecarver or tentacular dread to consume them. So even in the best scenario, you will have to switch your whip for runeblades and shove in tentacular dread to boot, not mention a fatecarver build which requires you to pretty much forget about your base class and just beam or create the crux to beam. The tentacular dread build is much less invasive, so people don't tend to complain about it as much, but the passives on Herald of the Tome are still way superior to any of the other skill lines.

This is what actually cherry picked data looks like if you want to make a point against the beam ↓
vOC HM class distribution

Every single arcanist was using beam that I checked through though I'm sure someone was mad enough to try a dread build and I just couldn't find it.

Oh please, tell me which skills from other classes let a DK still play like a DK because they're just "sitting there and not being used".

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/14/?metric=bossdps&boss=48&class=DragonKnight

Look at the skills being equipped and tell me those skills are only there for their passives, where as the players equipping fatecarver are using them for the ability value rather than the passives....

It's absolutely ludicrous to say "oh this skill isn't an issue because it just sits there for the passives" (killers blade, mericiless, soul harvest) even though they are on every single build almost, but arcanist is an issue because you have to use the skill to get value from it.....

Renalds · July 31

Necro was in its first couple years overpowered; and it kept being nerfed.
Arcanist was the new shiny thing with Necrom but has not really been nerfed that much.

Every new combat change seems to nerf the wrong class.

Turtle_Bot · July 31

The main issue as I see it is not that fatecarver is too easy or too strong, but that we no longer have multiple viable options that would/could have competed with Fatecarver for differing skill levels, allowing other classes to make a niche for themselves as additional "in-between" options of full weaving builds and Heavy Attack builds, just to different levels of complexity.

Plar (pre-U35) had old Jabs (closest to fatecarver in the mix of supreme AoE + offense + defense, but was melee so more risky than fatecarver)
Sorcerer (pre-2020) had Crystal Blast (still required good weaving and casting it every GCD with no bonus defensive utility, but provided strong ranged AoE option)
Necro (pre-U41) had stalking blast bones (in between the other 2, since it's once per 3 seconds but required doing other things in between casts)

All 3 of these abilities have been either completely removed from the game (Blast and Stalking) or reworked to not only be worse than before, but also significantly worse than fatecarver (new jabs).

This creates the issue where the top tier players who could likely clear trifecta content with no gear equipped remained unaffected by the loss of these abilities, the players who never engage with end-game content remain largely unaffected outside of losing something they enjoyed using/liked the theme of, but the middle-tier player (which would be 90% of those who want to get into end-game content which is most prog groups and most "social" groups that also do the harder content) were left with only 1 option. Fatecarver, whereas if ZOS had not removed those other abilities, these mid-tier players would have multiple options to choose from to work their way up to becoming an end-game player/progressing into the more complex weaving builds via steps, not just 1 giant leap. i.e. there would have been a clear progression path for these players, starting with Oaken heavy attack builds (most forgiving playstyle), moving onto non-oaken HA builds, then onto fatecarver, then moving onto jabs (more risk due to melee and healing instead of shield), then moving onto necro (or sorc) (much more weaving and no defense utility on the spammable but strong ranged AoE that compares to fatecarver for cleave heavy content), then onto a full complex min-max top DPS weaving build.

These clear stepping stones, if they weren't removed, would have also allowed these mid-tier players the option of still participating in end-game content while remaining at any of these stages of "difficulty" (in-case they hit a wall, or simply don't enjoy harder/more complex rotations) because all of these options were/would have still been viable for the cleave heavy content that is being designed today to account for fatecarvers existence.

TL//DR:
We used to have multiple mid-tier options between HA/Fatecarver builds and weaving builds, but the abilities these builds were built around got removed/adjusted over the years and as such, the mid-tier players, that such changes in this game over the years has driven away in droves, feel as though there's nothing in the game for them, outside of fatecarver (which many may not like for different reasons, such as became bored of the playstyle, don't enjoy the playstyle at all, don't like the theme, etc.).

ZOS needs to look into bringing back some of these old/removed abilities that enabled these solid stepping stone builds that allowed players to progress through to end-game without needing to surmount this giant chasm that exists between HA/fatecarver builds and the complex weaving builds with nothing in-between.