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Vengance be like...
-
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭✭Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc)
Back when Julianos was the hot gear set were better days. Oh man, Twice Born Star too.
You can really tell a lot of these people were never around for that, back when our only viable procs were a Monster Set and Arena Weapon.
Back then you were gear-checked the second you got hit by a Crystal Frag, but your gear certainly didn’t play for you.
I´d argue that you´re more "stat-checked" in the current PvP meta than you were back in 2015-2016. Only difference is that the stat values today are higher than back then. Like there are reasons why the "template PvP setup" people recommend to newer PvP players are Wretched/Rallying Cry/Monster set/Mythic/Trainee, because it covers most of those stat checks a beginner should have. It´s like people see 1 proc set in their death recap that did 400 dps and bring out the excuse folder blaming procs to why they lost. Or do we consider the example "template setup" I just wrote to be one of those that "play the game for you"?
Like if you get hit by a 20k+ bow proc in PvP, how is that not a "stat-check"?Edited by Major_Mangle on July 6, 2025 6:56PMPs4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -4 -
Radiate77✭✭✭Major_Mangle wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc)
Back when Julianos was the hot gear set were better days. Oh man, Twice Born Star too.
You can really tell a lot of these people were never around for that, back when our only viable procs were a Monster Set and Arena Weapon.
Back then you were gear-checked the second you got hit by a Crystal Frag, but your gear certainly didn’t play for you.
I´d argue that you´re more "stat-checked" in the current PvP meta than you were back in 2015-2016. Only difference is that the stat values today are higher than back then. Like there are reasons why the "template PvP setup" people recommend to newer PvP players are Wretched/Rallying Cry/Monster set/Mythic/Trainee, because it covers most of those stat checks a beginner should have. It´s like people see 1 proc set in their death recap that did 400 dps and bring out the excuse folder blaming procs to why they lost. Or do we consider the example "template setup" I just wrote to be one of those that "play the game for you"?
Like if you get hit by a 20k+ bow proc in PvP, how is that not a "stat-check"?
When did I say it wasn’t? 👀
That said, even sets like Wretched Vitality do play the game for you, as you are no longer having to manage your resources… a core part of combat in a game with costs tagged to every skill.
We had Lich back in the day and it functioned pretty similar, but it was also extraordinarily rare, as were all major gear advantages back in the day.
When 1 in 1,000 people have gear like that, it’s nowhere near an issue as 1 in 4 like today.4 -
Frayton✭✭✭✭lol I haven't gone into this test campaign but that dog is me on the rare occasion I go into PvP to do PvE quests against doors and NPCs when I'm desperate for tier 1 transmutes.
I stopped playing ESO PvP years ago when it was clear that it wasn't going to get better. Time has proven that to be true.
I've just accepted that ESO is a casual game which ZOS does well, so I play it as a casual now. When I want to PvP, I'll play another game that's pure PvP.1 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Mangle wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc)
Back when Julianos was the hot gear set were better days. Oh man, Twice Born Star too.
You can really tell a lot of these people were never around for that, back when our only viable procs were a Monster Set and Arena Weapon.
Back then you were gear-checked the second you got hit by a Crystal Frag, but your gear certainly didn’t play for you.
I´d argue that you´re more "stat-checked" in the current PvP meta than you were back in 2015-2016. Only difference is that the stat values today are higher than back then. Like there are reasons why the "template PvP setup" people recommend to newer PvP players are Wretched/Rallying Cry/Monster set/Mythic/Trainee, because it covers most of those stat checks a beginner should have. It´s like people see 1 proc set in their death recap that did 400 dps and bring out the excuse folder blaming procs to why they lost. Or do we consider the example "template setup" I just wrote to be one of those that "play the game for you"?
Like if you get hit by a 20k+ bow proc in PvP, how is that not a "stat-check"?
When did I say it wasn’t? 👀
That said, even sets like Wretched Vitality do play the game for you, as you are no longer having to manage your resources… a core part of combat in a game with costs tagged to every skill.
We had Lich back in the day and it functioned pretty similar, but it was also extraordinarily rare, as were all major gear advantages back in the day.
When 1 in 1,000 people have gear like that, it’s nowhere near an issue as 1 in 4 like today.
Gear playing for you is where Cyrodiil started to go off the rails in terms of "skilled" combat. Nowadays that term has lost all meaning to the point that when you only have your skills, people call that skilless.7 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.LadyGP/xCatGuy
PC/NA
Having network issues? Discconects? DM me and I will help you troubleshoot with PingPlotter to figure out what is going on.5 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
[edited to remove quote]
Honestly, if Vengeance is showing us anything, it is showing us that good PVP players will still be good, even without sets, while exposing those PVP players who are only good because of their sets. My group of 6-8 is consistently steamrolling players despite not having sets, including regular PVP opponents we see in Black Reach and Greyhost. And we're seeing lots of people who are thought of as quality PVP players struggling simply because they don't have carry sets. Basically, if you were good before and you know what your doing, your still going to be good in Vengeance format, while if you are entirely reliant on set builds, your going to get exposed in Vengeance format.10 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.
@YandereGirlfriend
@LadyGP
People are tired of ball groups. That's why we're there.
It has nothing to do really with proc sets or removing things, that's just something that happened. The ball groups weren't there and demonstrating a skill-based approach to PvP was a challenge that lots of us enjoyed.
Ball Groups are killing PvP in Cyrodiil by themselves and driving people away.
But really what it's about, what people are looking for, is a return to form from ESO PvP back years ago. This is what drew people into this game to start with but now, things like ball Groups are out of control, and they've demonstrated two things, a) The people defending them don't want to learn to fight Solo or be considered pugs like the rest of us and b) The people in Ball Groups care NOTHING for the Camp, the goals, the faction, they don't care. It's so painfully obvious and people know this. I don't completely agree with what they did to Ravenwatch, no. It was a lively place before the change. And I don't know what might happen with Vengeance in the future. With that said, ZOS, if you're reading this and you'd like my advice, work in Vengeance as an event similar to Midyears. I think that would best. That way everyone can take a break from the norm.
Having played Vengeance I and II extensively, and being a solo player for many years, yes I am personally biased towards the things I enjoy but anyone who advocates for Ball Groups remaining at their current power level in current form is perhaps not thinking about what's best for PvP itself. They're thinking about them and they have the power, but its power they should not have in this way. In Vengeance, many of us who were previously continuously exploited by Ball Groups, proved that were are already powerful and strong without them. I mean, lots of us have skills, haven't we proven that already? If this is true, why do we need Ball Groups? Why are they allowed to exploit us with all these gotchas and gimmicks. Its ethically wrong and morally bankrupt to put unskilled players over the skilled solos in this manner just because they have repetition and a couple exploitable sets to abuse other players with.
Fixing ball groups is going to bring some pain but if you don't do it and do so, in a patient and thoughtful manner, no one is really going to care much about PvPing with them. It'll be like New World with exclusive companies 'hand-picking' those they consider above everyone else. I've experienced this, despite my skills and gear in that game, it is a horrible thing. It's awful and I'll have no part in it and I'd highly suggest ESO get away from Ball Groups. Note that I consider Organized Groups and Ball Groups to not necessarily be the same difference, PUGs/Casuals/Solos/PvE types, all of these can have an Organized Group for example w/ comms.
But the best thing for the game, let alone any server, is to bring these Ball Groups down a couple pegs so we can oince again have healthy competition in PvP and not repeat mistakes made by other games and learn from the current mistakes and atrophy that has led to Ball Groups ever becoming this un-appropriately powerful to begin with. Groups couldn't have been intended to work this way, and you guys have to realize that even though it's so frustrating to see how many are comfortable with the way things are now.Edited by Vulkunne on July 8, 2025 4:33PMPerhaps this is where a ronin such as you belongs. Today, Victory is mine. Long Live the Empire.8 -
MagdaV✭✭✭@Vulkunne
I agree. We are essentially reduced to arguing over a campaign that lags, bugs, is run rampant by ball groups that aren't even working to the actual objectives of Cyro, unkillable tanks, and a max alliance player count of, what, 50?
Versus
Minimal lag, zero combat bug (although I will admit there were a few bug issues still with siege and getting stuck in walls), no ball groups, playing Cyro as it is intended; an alliance WAR, no unkillables and a player count of more than 300 people at a fight with battles lasting 2 hours and hardly anyone lags or disconnects.
Why is there so much fight against PvP becoming something playable by a larger number of people? This iteration of Vengeance won't be the end all be all. Anyone with common sense can see they are actively creating a NEW PvP experience from semi-ground up. They will have the issues to address from this round, and just like last round they will make the necessary adjustments to proceed to the next level of testing. I just do no understand why there is such dramatic response to ZoS actually fixing PvP. This isn't a "wave a magic wand" type of thing to fix.
If smaller scale is what you are into, there is both IC and Battlegrounds. Cyro is meant for large groups working together to conquer the map. That is why score is based on territory/scrolls obtained and not just kill count.
10 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.
@YandereGirlfriend
@LadyGP
People are tired of ball groups. That's why we're there.
It has nothing to do really with proc sets or removing things, that's just something that happened. The ball groups weren't there and demonstrating a skill-based approach to PvP was a challenge that lots of us enjoyed.
Ball Groups are killing PvP in Cyrodiil by themselves and driving people away.
But really what it's about, what people are looking for, is a return to form from ESO PvP back years ago. This is what drew people into this game to start with but now, things like ball Groups are out of control, and they've demonstrated two things, a) The people defending them don't want to learn to fight Solo or be considered pugs like the rest of us and b) The people in Ball Groups care NOTHING for the Camp, the goals, the faction, they don't care. It's so painfully obvious and people know this. I don't completely agree with what they did to Ravenwatch, no. It was a lively place before the change. And I don't know what might happen with Vengeance in the future. With that said, ZOS, if you're reading this and you'd like my advice, work in Vengeance as an event similar to Midyears. I think that would best. That way everyone can take a break from the norm.
Having played Vengeance I and II extensively, and being a solo player for many years, yes I am personally biased towards the things I enjoy but anyone who advocates for Ball Groups remaining at their current power level in current form is perhaps not thinking about what's best for PvP itself. They're thinking about them and they have the power, but its power they should not have in this way. In Vengeance, many of us who were previously continuously exploited by Ball Groups, proved that were are already powerful and strong without them. I mean, lots of us have skills, haven't we proven that already? If this is true, why do we need Ball Groups? Why are they allowed to exploit us with all these gotchas and gimmicks. Its ethically wrong and morally bankrupt to put unskilled players over the skilled solos in this manner just because they have repetition and a couple exploitable sets to abuse other players with.
Fixing ball groups is going to bring some pain but if you don't do it and do so, in a patient and thoughtful manner, no one is really going to care much about PvPing with them. It'll be like New World with exclusive companies 'hand-picking' those they consider above everyone else. I've experienced this, despite my skills and gear in that game, it is a horrible thing. It's awful and I'll have no part in it and I'd highly suggest ESO get away from Ball Groups. Note that I consider Organized Groups and Ball Groups to not necessarily be the same difference, PUGs/Casuals/Solos/PvE types, all of these can have an Organized Group for example w/ comms.
But the best thing for the game, let alone any server, is to bring these Ball Groups down a couple pegs so we can oince again have healthy competition in PvP and not repeat mistakes made by other games and learn from the current mistakes and atrophy that has led to Ball Groups ever becoming this un-appropriately powerful to begin with. Groups couldn't have been intended to work this way, and you guys have to realize that even though it's so frustrating to see how many are comfortable with the way things are now.
In that case, ya'll should be asking ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking in groups. Not advocating for no skill dumbed down vengeance trash.
Why hasn't ZOS even tried to limit heal and shield stacking yet? ...I mean, just as a test or anything?4 -
RobZha✭✭✭That said, even sets like Wretched Vitality do play the game for you, as you are no longer having to manage your resources… a core part of combat in a game with costs tagged to every skill.
I use wretched vitality a lot at the moment because I have issues managing resources, I'm sure a good number of others do too. Maybe it's because I left for years and still have to work out how to manage skill use better (and I have no mythics atm to give a damage boost either, currently just levelled the skill line and trying to get my first.)
It definitely doesn't play the game for me though. If I spam certain skills/don't concentrate on what I'm doing enough I'll still run out quickly. If I no longer had to check how much magicka or stamina I had and I could just mash whatever buttons I wanted without ever running low on either then I'd agree that'd be an issue but it's definitely not the case.
Wretched only has one line of damage too so it means I'm lacking compared to others that are using double damage sets along with damage focused mythics, monster sets, fully infused weapon/spell damage jewelry, etc, then if I choose to focus a bit more on defence my damage goes down even further. Adding a sustain mundus isn't really an option either because then my damage/pen suffers even more, so it does come with a cost.0 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.
@YandereGirlfriend
@LadyGP
People are tired of ball groups. That's why we're there.
It has nothing to do really with proc sets or removing things, that's just something that happened. The ball groups weren't there and demonstrating a skill-based approach to PvP was a challenge that lots of us enjoyed.
Ball Groups are killing PvP in Cyrodiil by themselves and driving people away.
But really what it's about, what people are looking for, is a return to form from ESO PvP back years ago. This is what drew people into this game to start with but now, things like ball Groups are out of control, and they've demonstrated two things, a) The people defending them don't want to learn to fight Solo or be considered pugs like the rest of us and b) The people in Ball Groups care NOTHING for the Camp, the goals, the faction, they don't care. It's so painfully obvious and people know this. I don't completely agree with what they did to Ravenwatch, no. It was a lively place before the change. And I don't know what might happen with Vengeance in the future. With that said, ZOS, if you're reading this and you'd like my advice, work in Vengeance as an event similar to Midyears. I think that would best. That way everyone can take a break from the norm.
Having played Vengeance I and II extensively, and being a solo player for many years, yes I am personally biased towards the things I enjoy but anyone who advocates for Ball Groups remaining at their current power level in current form is perhaps not thinking about what's best for PvP itself. They're thinking about them and they have the power, but its power they should not have in this way. In Vengeance, many of us who were previously continuously exploited by Ball Groups, proved that were are already powerful and strong without them. I mean, lots of us have skills, haven't we proven that already? If this is true, why do we need Ball Groups? Why are they allowed to exploit us with all these gotchas and gimmicks. Its ethically wrong and morally bankrupt to put unskilled players over the skilled solos in this manner just because they have repetition and a couple exploitable sets to abuse other players with.
Fixing ball groups is going to bring some pain but if you don't do it and do so, in a patient and thoughtful manner, no one is really going to care much about PvPing with them. It'll be like New World with exclusive companies 'hand-picking' those they consider above everyone else. I've experienced this, despite my skills and gear in that game, it is a horrible thing. It's awful and I'll have no part in it and I'd highly suggest ESO get away from Ball Groups. Note that I consider Organized Groups and Ball Groups to not necessarily be the same difference, PUGs/Casuals/Solos/PvE types, all of these can have an Organized Group for example w/ comms.
But the best thing for the game, let alone any server, is to bring these Ball Groups down a couple pegs so we can oince again have healthy competition in PvP and not repeat mistakes made by other games and learn from the current mistakes and atrophy that has led to Ball Groups ever becoming this un-appropriately powerful to begin with. Groups couldn't have been intended to work this way, and you guys have to realize that even though it's so frustrating to see how many are comfortable with the way things are now.
In that case, ya'll should be asking ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking in groups. Not advocating for no skill dumbed down vengeance trash.
Why hasn't ZOS even tried to limit heal and shield stacking yet? ...I mean, just as a test or anything?
Many of us have asked for that again and again and again...and again...3 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForumBully wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.
@YandereGirlfriend
@LadyGP
People are tired of ball groups. That's why we're there.
It has nothing to do really with proc sets or removing things, that's just something that happened. The ball groups weren't there and demonstrating a skill-based approach to PvP was a challenge that lots of us enjoyed.
Ball Groups are killing PvP in Cyrodiil by themselves and driving people away.
But really what it's about, what people are looking for, is a return to form from ESO PvP back years ago. This is what drew people into this game to start with but now, things like ball Groups are out of control, and they've demonstrated two things, a) The people defending them don't want to learn to fight Solo or be considered pugs like the rest of us and b) The people in Ball Groups care NOTHING for the Camp, the goals, the faction, they don't care. It's so painfully obvious and people know this. I don't completely agree with what they did to Ravenwatch, no. It was a lively place before the change. And I don't know what might happen with Vengeance in the future. With that said, ZOS, if you're reading this and you'd like my advice, work in Vengeance as an event similar to Midyears. I think that would best. That way everyone can take a break from the norm.
Having played Vengeance I and II extensively, and being a solo player for many years, yes I am personally biased towards the things I enjoy but anyone who advocates for Ball Groups remaining at their current power level in current form is perhaps not thinking about what's best for PvP itself. They're thinking about them and they have the power, but its power they should not have in this way. In Vengeance, many of us who were previously continuously exploited by Ball Groups, proved that were are already powerful and strong without them. I mean, lots of us have skills, haven't we proven that already? If this is true, why do we need Ball Groups? Why are they allowed to exploit us with all these gotchas and gimmicks. Its ethically wrong and morally bankrupt to put unskilled players over the skilled solos in this manner just because they have repetition and a couple exploitable sets to abuse other players with.
Fixing ball groups is going to bring some pain but if you don't do it and do so, in a patient and thoughtful manner, no one is really going to care much about PvPing with them. It'll be like New World with exclusive companies 'hand-picking' those they consider above everyone else. I've experienced this, despite my skills and gear in that game, it is a horrible thing. It's awful and I'll have no part in it and I'd highly suggest ESO get away from Ball Groups. Note that I consider Organized Groups and Ball Groups to not necessarily be the same difference, PUGs/Casuals/Solos/PvE types, all of these can have an Organized Group for example w/ comms.
But the best thing for the game, let alone any server, is to bring these Ball Groups down a couple pegs so we can oince again have healthy competition in PvP and not repeat mistakes made by other games and learn from the current mistakes and atrophy that has led to Ball Groups ever becoming this un-appropriately powerful to begin with. Groups couldn't have been intended to work this way, and you guys have to realize that even though it's so frustrating to see how many are comfortable with the way things are now.
In that case, ya'll should be asking ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking in groups. Not advocating for no skill dumbed down vengeance trash.
Why hasn't ZOS even tried to limit heal and shield stacking yet? ...I mean, just as a test or anything?
Many of us have asked for that again and again and again...and again...
I've ran lead in ball groups, ran as healers, dps, main puller, etc for many years and EVEN I AM ASKING FOR THIS.
There can be a middle ground where we have a bad to the bone PvP with minimal lag, tons of players, build diversity, and less OP ball groups. It is not an either or situation. They CAN create an experience where players of all play styles get to play and people who dislike ball groups have a shot at killing them (no.. random 10 pugs with zero comp or coms shouldn't be able to kill a ball group and if thats your opinion... well sorry you're opinion is wrong
).
Again, it's not a this or that. It's more of a... will they put in the effort to find the middle ground or are they going to just say screw it... 500 players, no skill.. zerg fest.. go.
thats fine if they want to do that.. but you're going to lose a lot of players who have been here for 5 or more years who spend a ton of money (yes... us PvP only people buy content.. just look at my Amex bill over the years. I'm thousands of dollars deep in this game and so are many of the people I play with who only pvp).LadyGP/xCatGuy
PC/NA
Having network issues? Discconects? DM me and I will help you troubleshoot with PingPlotter to figure out what is going on.1 -
Radiate77✭✭✭That said, even sets like Wretched Vitality do play the game for you, as you are no longer having to manage your resources… a core part of combat in a game with costs tagged to every skill.
I use wretched vitality a lot at the moment because I have issues managing resources, I'm sure a good number of others do too. Maybe it's because I left for years and still have to work out how to manage skill use better (and I have no mythics atm to give a damage boost either, currently just levelled the skill line and trying to get my first.)
It definitely doesn't play the game for me though. If I spam certain skills/don't concentrate on what I'm doing enough I'll still run out quickly. If I no longer had to check how much magicka or stamina I had and I could just mash whatever buttons I wanted without ever running low on either then I'd agree that'd be an issue but it's definitely not the case.
Wretched only has one line of damage too so it means I'm lacking compared to others that are using double damage sets along with damage focused mythics, monster sets, fully infused weapon/spell damage jewelry, etc, then if I choose to focus a bit more on defence my damage goes down even further. Adding a sustain mundus isn't really an option either because then my damage/pen suffers even more, so it does come with a cost.
Hey, don’t take what I said as derogatory. While I would love to go back to a time where sets didn’t remove core parts of the gameplay, and ESO felt more like a fighting game than a FPS in terms of time-to-kill, using what’s at your disposal isn’t wrong, and if a set like Wretched Vitality helps you cover an area you’re weak in then more power to you.
At least you know sustain is your issue. For most players, they struggle to isolate what their biggest problems are, and run cookie cutter builds and end up folded up like lawn chairs, wondering why.
One bit of advice I can give from a decade of experience, turn on percentages in your options and pay close attention to what your needs are… being roll dodge, cc break, and a burst heal.1 -
StihlReign✭✭✭✭✭
In that case, ya'll should be asking ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking in groups. Not advocating for no skill dumbed down vengeance trash.
Why hasn't ZOS even tried to limit heal and shield stacking yet? ...I mean, just as a test or anything?
That was Vengeance test 1. This test, Vengeance Test 2 tested heal stacking. Zos has now loaded Vengeance Test 3 on the PTS.
"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy!
Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.” – Ch. VI, v. 8-9. — Master Sun Tzu
"You haven't beaten me you've sacrificed sure footing for a killing stroke." — Ra's al Ghul
He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious — Master Sun Tzu
LoS0 -
RobZha✭✭✭Hey, don’t take what I said as derogatory. While I would love to go back to a time where sets didn’t remove core parts of the gameplay, and ESO felt more like a fighting game than a FPS in terms of time-to-kill, using what’s at your disposal isn’t wrong, and if a set like Wretched Vitality helps you cover an area you’re weak in then more power to you.
At least you know sustain is your issue. For most players, they struggle to isolate what their biggest problems are, and run cookie cutter builds and end up folded up like lawn chairs, wondering why.
One bit of advice I can give from a decade of experience, turn on percentages in your options and pay close attention to what your needs are… being roll dodge, cc break, and a burst heal.
No offence taken and yeah sustain is often the issue even though other things can hit at times depending on who I'm fighting against (and if there's lag or not.) I don't think I've tried the percentages option either so will give that a go too, thanks!
1 -
Arrow312✭✭✭✭✭ForumBully wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Major_Mangle wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »LesserCircle wrote: »
No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.
ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)
Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.
[edited to remove quote]
As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.
SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.
In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.
NAILED IT!
They can remove procs, skills, sets, etc and the camp will be dead in 3 months - I'd put money on it.
Vengance is fun for the first day or two. Yes, it's easier for PvE people to come in and have fun for a night but they are not going to carry the campaign. IF this is the running mindset in the studio right now... you're going to have another dead camp just like no-proc. Guaranteed. You can have a lower barrier to entry while still making it a skilled/diverse game with creative combat.
@YandereGirlfriend
@LadyGP
People are tired of ball groups. That's why we're there.
It has nothing to do really with proc sets or removing things, that's just something that happened. The ball groups weren't there and demonstrating a skill-based approach to PvP was a challenge that lots of us enjoyed.
Ball Groups are killing PvP in Cyrodiil by themselves and driving people away.
But really what it's about, what people are looking for, is a return to form from ESO PvP back years ago. This is what drew people into this game to start with but now, things like ball Groups are out of control, and they've demonstrated two things, a) The people defending them don't want to learn to fight Solo or be considered pugs like the rest of us and b) The people in Ball Groups care NOTHING for the Camp, the goals, the faction, they don't care. It's so painfully obvious and people know this. I don't completely agree with what they did to Ravenwatch, no. It was a lively place before the change. And I don't know what might happen with Vengeance in the future. With that said, ZOS, if you're reading this and you'd like my advice, work in Vengeance as an event similar to Midyears. I think that would best. That way everyone can take a break from the norm.
Having played Vengeance I and II extensively, and being a solo player for many years, yes I am personally biased towards the things I enjoy but anyone who advocates for Ball Groups remaining at their current power level in current form is perhaps not thinking about what's best for PvP itself. They're thinking about them and they have the power, but its power they should not have in this way. In Vengeance, many of us who were previously continuously exploited by Ball Groups, proved that were are already powerful and strong without them. I mean, lots of us have skills, haven't we proven that already? If this is true, why do we need Ball Groups? Why are they allowed to exploit us with all these gotchas and gimmicks. Its ethically wrong and morally bankrupt to put unskilled players over the skilled solos in this manner just because they have repetition and a couple exploitable sets to abuse other players with.
Fixing ball groups is going to bring some pain but if you don't do it and do so, in a patient and thoughtful manner, no one is really going to care much about PvPing with them. It'll be like New World with exclusive companies 'hand-picking' those they consider above everyone else. I've experienced this, despite my skills and gear in that game, it is a horrible thing. It's awful and I'll have no part in it and I'd highly suggest ESO get away from Ball Groups. Note that I consider Organized Groups and Ball Groups to not necessarily be the same difference, PUGs/Casuals/Solos/PvE types, all of these can have an Organized Group for example w/ comms.
But the best thing for the game, let alone any server, is to bring these Ball Groups down a couple pegs so we can oince again have healthy competition in PvP and not repeat mistakes made by other games and learn from the current mistakes and atrophy that has led to Ball Groups ever becoming this un-appropriately powerful to begin with. Groups couldn't have been intended to work this way, and you guys have to realize that even though it's so frustrating to see how many are comfortable with the way things are now.
In that case, ya'll should be asking ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking in groups. Not advocating for no skill dumbed down vengeance trash.
Why hasn't ZOS even tried to limit heal and shield stacking yet? ...I mean, just as a test or anything?
Many of us have asked for that again and again and again...and again...
IMO this is the real problem. You cant get those groups down when the incoming healing is higher then any damage they get. I would say 2-3 HoTs with your own burstheal is higher then any Burstdamage you can put on.PC EU X'ing, Small Scale PvP
Arr0w3120 -
loosej✭✭✭✭✭@Vulkunne
I agree. We are essentially reduced to arguing over a campaign that lags, bugs, is run rampant by ball groups that aren't even working to the actual objectives of Cyro, unkillable tanks, and a max alliance player count of, what, 50?
Versus
Minimal lag, zero combat bug (although I will admit there were a few bug issues still with siege and getting stuck in walls), no ball groups, playing Cyro as it is intended; an alliance WAR, no unkillables and a player count of more than 300 people at a fight with battles lasting 2 hours and hardly anyone lags or disconnects.
Why is there so much fight against PvP becoming something playable by a larger number of people? This iteration of Vengeance won't be the end all be all. Anyone with common sense can see they are actively creating a NEW PvP experience from semi-ground up. They will have the issues to address from this round, and just like last round they will make the necessary adjustments to proceed to the next level of testing. I just do no understand why there is such dramatic response to ZoS actually fixing PvP. This isn't a "wave a magic wand" type of thing to fix.
If smaller scale is what you are into, there is both IC and Battlegrounds. Cyro is meant for large groups working together to conquer the map. That is why score is based on territory/scrolls obtained and not just kill count.
I've pretty much stopped fighting against it, but this is why I don't think Vengeance (current or future expanded form) is a good solution.
For context, I first discovered the Elder Scrolls franchise with the release of TES 3: Morrowind. Before playing eso, my experience with mmo's was limited to the early days of WoW (up until cataclysm iirc).
The thing that got me curious enough to try eso was the fact that it's Elder Scrolls. But the thing that got me invested in the game was Cyrodiil. The first time I experienced it was during mym some years ago, at a time when pop caps were still high enough to have multiple epic battles all over the map.
By the end of last year I got frustrated enough with the declining pop caps, ball group lag, and overall bad decisions made by zos that I decided to look around and see if the grass was greener somewhere else. I ended up giving guild wars 2 a try, and so far haven't been disappointed.
I'm well aware that I look at it through rose tinted glasses, compared to the brownish tint that colors my view on eso, but here's some of the things I'm getting out of it: Far better storyline and voice acting, to the point where I actually follow along instead of hitting the "skip" button. Far better open world experience, with multiple choices of world events to join at any given time. No server downtime, just a notification that I should restart the game because there's a new build of the client available. Stable technology, having seen 2 disconnects total. A cash store that allows to buy their version of crowns for gold directly through the ui. Proper customer support and care for customer satisfaction (due to a Steam connection issue, I was once locked out of the expansions I bought for the better part of a day - as a compensation I received their monetary equivalent of 400 crowns).
But most of all: in World v. World (their version of Cyrodiil) I get 50 ms pings. Consistently. No lag spikes.
And yet, I miss Cyrodiil. Combat in gw2 is fun, but it's not as fast-paced as it is in eso, with skills having cooldowns and cast times. There are keeps, strategic points, and siege to take down the defenses, but siege is a slow process. Gear is all stat based, with limited options to try fun or niche builds like you can with all the sets in eso. Buffs are all named, with a limit to how high they stack, which helps to keep the power potential of organized groups in check (a good thing). But it also means every zerg turns into a ballgroup, in that they will usually have every buff maxed out due to their large number, which means zerg surfing is usually the optimal play. So far I personally find it a boring experience, feeling like my only contribution is adding +1 to the zerg, but at this point that could still be a skill issue on my end.
Vengeance includes all the things I just described. It may be turning Cyrodiil in something playable by a larger number of people, but it's also removing everything that made it unique. Zenimax isn't creating a new pvp experience from semi-ground up, they're creating an experience that already exists in other games.
What I want is the promise of Cyrodiil that has been sold to us for years. Huge battles, proper network infrastructure, and the build flexibility eso offers. Or used to offer before multiclassing at least.Consistency: It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup (source: despair.com)1 -
marius_buys✭✭✭✭✭
✭sleepy_worm wrote: »marius_buys wrote: »Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol
You do understand that 10 of those edits were removing a nested quote of the one actual post removed, right?
o hell, yes indeed, my bad
Golden Clover AD PvP on PC EU (since 2017) Guildex https://eso.guildex.org/view-guild/17669 Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1312113207951960 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vengeance(test1) is everything PvP should be, in any game: Fair, equal, accessible, about player skill, and without immortal players roaming around. Basing PvP off of gear has been ESO's entire problem with all the available PvP modes.5 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭I'm not so sure nerfs is way to get ball groups toned down to more reasonable sizes. Isn't one of the many reasons which some players might join an XL ball group, something like they're feeling weaker, less impactful, and such alone or in a small group when they join Cyrodiil? If they continuously get nerfed aren't they going to feel weaker and gravitate more towards larger and larger groups and maybe even skip PvP all together?
I do believe it should be based on skill however, we wouldn't want it to become excessively bland either. There must be a middle point most pvpers could be happy with.
If the campaign is meant to become larger and emp requires taking keeps. Why can't there now be requirements for a certain amount of players of that faction to physically continue occupying those keeps within a certain amount of meters, similar to guard duty.
Could maybe having multiple simultanious and AP attractive objectives active across the map help to separate players a bit instead of the hammer and whatever nonsense to stack up on? I'm willing to bet the most active PvPers have way better ideas than this too.Edited by Arrodisia on July 26, 2025 4:30PM1 -
marius_buys✭✭✭✭✭
✭One simple solution to ball groups, is to increase the bonus damage of proximity detonation to nearby enemy by 500%Golden Clover AD PvP on PC EU (since 2017) Guildex https://eso.guildex.org/view-guild/17669 Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1312113207951960 -
Navaac223✭✭✭✭marius_buys wrote: »One simple solution to ball groups, is to increase the bonus damage of proximity detonation to nearby enemy by 500%
Dear god, anything but that. Haven't all the sets meant to counter ball groups by bombing them backfire horribly (rush lf agony, vicious death, dark convergence and others being used by ball groups to kill pugs) ?0 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭marius_buys wrote: »One simple solution to ball groups, is to increase the bonus damage of proximity detonation to nearby enemy by 500%
Dear god, anything but that. Haven't all the sets meant to counter ball groups by bombing them backfire horribly (rush lf agony, vicious death, dark convergence and others being used by ball groups to kill pugs) ?
(evil laugh).
Yup!
Easiest way to start tuning down ball groups is try to balance the stacked hots and stacked shields.
Make ball groups squishier, not tyring to make sets that put more dmg on them. We will jsut use the sets against the zerg.LadyGP/xCatGuy
PC/NA
Having network issues? Discconects? DM me and I will help you troubleshoot with PingPlotter to figure out what is going on.0
