Vengance be like...

marius_buys · July 4

fizzybeef · July 4

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

Okay csb, if you say so it must be true

[edited to remove quote]

LesserCircle · July 4

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

[edited to remove quote]

Abelon · July 4

I can't even tell if the meme is trying to attack the "vengeance tourists" or not, because idk, it doesn't exactly look bad to me. I know OP's stance but still. At least the dog is happy instead of being miserable.

ForumBully · July 4

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

[edited to remove quote]

Major_Mangle · July 4

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully · July 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

[edited to remove quote]

Major_Mangle · July 4

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

A lot of players are skeptical because of how ZOS have handled these kind of performance tests before. Last time they did a series of performance test it lead to Ravenwatch becoming no-proc which essentially killed the campaign (on PCEU Ravenwatch was more popular than Greyhost before it became no-proc). Back then during those tests ZOS clearly said that this isn´t going to become the final product, but then took a 180 degree turn and did it anyway. Regarding these current tests, ZOS still hasn´t denied/confirmed that Vengeance, or whatever version of it it ends up with, won´t be implemented in the future. It´s crazy how people like myself (and others) with valid skepticism gets constantly gaslit into "hurr durr it´s only a test" by people who have 0 memory of how ZOS have handled tests in the past.

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully · July 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

A lot of players are skeptical because of how ZOS have handled these kind of performance tests before. Last time they did a series of performance test it lead to Ravenwatch becoming no-proc which essentially killed the campaign (on PCEU Ravenwatch was more popular than Greyhost before it became no-proc). Back then during those tests ZOS clearly said that this isn´t going to become the final product, but then took a 180 degree turn and did it anyway. Regarding these current tests, ZOS still hasn´t denied/confirmed that Vengeance, or whatever version of it it ends up with, won´t be implemented in the future. It´s crazy how people like myself (and others) with valid skepticism gets constantly gaslit into "hurr durr it´s only a test" by people who have 0 memory of how ZOS have handled tests in the past.

So the solution then is "do nothing because we don't trust you"? Is the vision for ESO PvP supposed to stay ~60 per faction and barely hitting that number except on weekends until it finally dwindles down to not even that on weekends?

[edited to remove quote]

Desiato · July 4

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

No kidding. It's not even a skill thing, but an attitude thing. People into pvp games usually like good competition and I think everyone can agree that hasn't existed for a long time in eso. I would bet most of the players who identify as pvp players in eso wouldn't play if they lost as much as they won.

Don't get me wrong. I like a lot of eso pvp streamers. Like there are some cool dudes. But do you ever see a good fight between decent players? I haven't after watching them for dozens of hours hoping to see that. It's 99% pug stomping and the dudes don't even seem to be having fun playing. People I consider pvp gamers wouldn't enjoy that.

When I briefly put effort into eso pvp a year and a half ago I beat one in an impromptu 1v1 and he was seriously _sad_ about getting beat by a 'pug'! (if only he knew how old I am) Incidentally, I watched the vod and his pov was so different than mine. Normal Cyrodiil is seriously broken.

And then at a group level, I didn't observe any heated rivalries like we'd see between the top guilds 10 years ago. There doesn't seem to be any DiE/Havoc/Haxus/Rage/Fantasia/Venatus/Vehemence/Khole/Decibel/Dracarys/etc type guilds. Guilds like that went at each other hard. I'm forgetting a lot of good guilds. I forget who Crystalized ran with in 2014 for example.

There was no competitive experience anywhere to be found. I took a break from eso then got into trials.

When two decent pvp players find each other on stream, they are more likely to show affection than go at each other. I can't imagine what you guys get out of this.

[edited to remove quote]

Joy_Division · July 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

A lot of players are skeptical because of how ZOS have handled these kind of performance tests before. Last time they did a series of performance test it lead to Ravenwatch becoming no-proc which essentially killed the campaign (on PCEU Ravenwatch was more popular than Greyhost before it became no-proc). Back then during those tests ZOS clearly said that this isn´t going to become the final product, but then took a 180 degree turn and did it anyway. Regarding these current tests, ZOS still hasn´t denied/confirmed that Vengeance, or whatever version of it it ends up with, won´t be implemented in the future. It´s crazy how people like myself (and others) with valid skepticism gets constantly gaslit into "hurr durr it´s only a test" by people who have 0 memory of how ZOS have handled tests in the past.

They did this because it was what the loudest "skillful" players told them.

For years and years, they wouldn't shut up about how proc sets were trash that carried average players. Go back and read the feedback threads from that test where they removed proc sets. It was full of comments saying how much better the game was without them.

ZOS, being in the state it was where they now had no PvP developer, told themselves here was an quick, easy, no resource way to change/improve PvP, so of course they jumped on it.

What ZOS does not understand is what most people really mean when they say "proc" set. They don;t mean subtle, unobtrusive, mostly mediocre stuff like (new) Wizard's Riposte, Ancient Dragonguard, or Bright-Throat's Boast. What they mean are the poorly balanced incentives to get customers to buy the latest Chapter that actively play the game instead of merely providing some stat benefits: (old and really new) Earthgore, (old) tarnished Nightmare, (old) Sload's Sembalance, (old) Mara's Balm, Rush of Agony, etc. They didn't understand is what players meant by saying "I want a no proc campaign" was "there are about 8 broken sets that undermine competitive skill and PvP is more enjoyable without them." They thought they were giving us what we wanted.

That was the only old tests that became semi-permanent (and then only on one campaign). These tests by and large did not dictate the direction ESO PvP went.

[edited to remove quote]

ForumBully · July 4

Joy_Division wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

A lot of players are skeptical because of how ZOS have handled these kind of performance tests before. Last time they did a series of performance test it lead to Ravenwatch becoming no-proc which essentially killed the campaign (on PCEU Ravenwatch was more popular than Greyhost before it became no-proc). Back then during those tests ZOS clearly said that this isn´t going to become the final product, but then took a 180 degree turn and did it anyway. Regarding these current tests, ZOS still hasn´t denied/confirmed that Vengeance, or whatever version of it it ends up with, won´t be implemented in the future. It´s crazy how people like myself (and others) with valid skepticism gets constantly gaslit into "hurr durr it´s only a test" by people who have 0 memory of how ZOS have handled tests in the past.

They did this because it was what the loudest "skillful" players told them.

For years and years, they wouldn't shut up about how proc sets were trash that carried average players. Go back and read the feedback threads from that test where they removed proc sets. It was full of comments saying how much better the game was without them.

ZOS, being in the state it was where they now had no PvP developer, told themselves here was an quick, easy, no resource way to change/improve PvP, so of course they jumped on it.

What ZOS does not understand is what most people really mean when they say "proc" set. They don;t mean subtle, unobtrusive, mostly mediocre stuff like (new) Wizard's Riposte, Ancient Dragonguard, or Bright-Throat's Boast. What they mean are the poorly balanced incentives to get customers to buy the latest Chapter that actively play the game instead of merely providing some stat benefits: (old and really new) Earthgore, (old) tarnished Nightmare, (old) Sload's Sembalance, (old) Mara's Balm, Rush of Agony, etc. They didn't understand is what players meant by saying "I want a no proc campaign" was "there are about 8 broken sets that undermine competitive skill and PvP is more enjoyable without them." They thought they were giving us what we wanted.

That was the only old tests that became semi-permanent (and then only on one campaign). These tests by and large did not dictate the direction ESO PvP went.

Agree completely about procs, there have always been good procs that enable you to do more with your skills, but there is a flood of bad procs that have become the majority of your healing, sustain or damage, essentially playing for you.

[edited to remove quote]

Arrow312 · July 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

A lot of players are skeptical because of how ZOS have handled these kind of performance tests before. Last time they did a series of performance test it lead to Ravenwatch becoming no-proc which essentially killed the campaign (on PCEU Ravenwatch was more popular than Greyhost before it became no-proc). Back then during those tests ZOS clearly said that this isn´t going to become the final product, but then took a 180 degree turn and did it anyway. Regarding these current tests, ZOS still hasn´t denied/confirmed that Vengeance, or whatever version of it it ends up with, won´t be implemented in the future. It´s crazy how people like myself (and others) with valid skepticism gets constantly gaslit into "hurr durr it´s only a test" by people who have 0 memory of how ZOS have handled tests in the past.

First i thought ok just a test give it a go. This test i left because i dont like the limitations and the templates. But i was shocked when i saw the survey. This make me skeptical if vengence is just a test or something they could bring in future. i remember the test where ravenwatch switch the tenor was No Proc with only crossheal in group is good and what they made was a no cp no proc camp.

When i talked about procs with my guild mates we mean sets which give you free damage (e.g. tarnish) or free purge / heals (old mara) sets where you just hit a button to get multiple damage or healing from. As some wrote not sets like ancient dragon guard.

[edited to remove quote]

marius_buys · July 5

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

Desiato · July 5

marius_buys wrote: »

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

The first two years of the Alliance War forum is basically banned now.

RealLoveBVB · July 5

marius_buys wrote: »

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

Pretty much confirms the pvp-toxicity

AngryPenguin · July 5

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

Pretty much confirms the pvp-toxicity

It confirms toxicity, no doubt. It's not coming from the PvP community though.

amiiegee · July 5

AngryPenguin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

Pretty much confirms the pvp-toxicity

It confirms toxicity, no doubt. It's not coming from the PvP community though.

this tbh.

Also seen in other threads.

The loyal pvp community who sticked with this game for years since it drastically went downhill (since greymoor) gets treated like [snip] right now [snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Desiato · July 5

Real pvp players generally have thick skin and couldn't care less about insults anyway.

For the first couple of years in the alliance war forums, ZOS understood that trash talk was part of competitive environments and let so much go. There's probably an old faq from 2014 somewhere that says as much.

Honestly, pvp games can be savage. We call pve players carebears for a reason. You should see zone chat in Rust. Contemporary eso players would call 911 if they saw it.

amiiegee · July 5

Desiato wrote: »

Real pvp players generally have thick skin and couldn't care less about insults anyway.

For the first couple of years in the alliance war forums, ZOS understood that trash talk was part of competitive environments and let so much go. There's probably an old faq from 2014 somewhere that says as much.

Honestly, pvp games can be savage. We call pve players carebears for a reason. You should see zone chat in Rust. Contemporary eso players would call 911 if they saw it.

If the chat in ESO was only slightly like in rust, people would get insta perma banned because of some AI software

Desiato · July 5

amiiegee wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Real pvp players generally have thick skin and couldn't care less about insults anyway.

For the first couple of years in the alliance war forums, ZOS understood that trash talk was part of competitive environments and let so much go. There's probably an old faq from 2014 somewhere that says as much.

Honestly, pvp games can be savage. We call pve players carebears for a reason. You should see zone chat in Rust. Contemporary eso players would call 911 if they saw it.

If the chat in ESO was only slightly like in rust, people would get insta perma banned because of some AI software

Oh definitely.

Jaavaa · July 6

marius_buys wrote: »

Awesome. Thanks for this 😅

YandereGirlfriend · July 6

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

[edited to remove quote]

As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.

SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.

In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.

ForumBully · July 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

LesserCircle wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

[snip]

I see this as an insult to PvP players, everyone plays the way the want, calling the current players "A handful of roleplayers" is disrespectful imo.

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc) to the extend that knowledge on how to make a proper PvP setup makes a huge difference. Even in no-proc what set/build you were using was 85% of your success rate. Vengeance removes the ceiling, or rather it merges it with the floor, but at the same time it removes any type of progression (which isn´t a good thing). A more gently entry curve is fine, but not if it comes at the expense of removing progression or the upper end of the curve. No one would accept PvE having 0 progression or anything to strive for, so why should it be ok for PvP? (more of a rhetorical question, because the answer is that it isn´t ok)

Why does everyone continue to act like the testing iteration we're currently in is the final product? It's just non stop complaining that they don't want something that isn't permanent, permanently. Do they think that ZoS is just stopping here? There is a middle ground between the mess that Cyrodiil is on live and the simplicity that it is during Vengeance.

[edited to remove quote]

As others have said, any pre-2022 Ravenwatch player knows well how "a simple test" can quickly turn into campaign-killing reality based largely upon the hype of players who never mained the campaign to begin with.

SO MANY touted No-Proc in the exact same way that Vengeance is being touted now but none of them ever showed up to actually play in the campaign when the changes became permanent, which left a dead campaign in its wake.

In other words, the touters and hypsters gladly sacrificed someone else's campaign while giving up nothing of their own. That is the fear of basically any GH player these days, that PvE tourists and their hype will induce changes to GH that will destroy it. And then Vengeance will die-off like all flavor of the month things do when PvE tourists are, surprise, surprise, not converted into regular PvP players.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it and all of that.

Ah the fear for Greyhost...what is dead may never die.

ForumBully · July 6

What Greyhost is, isn't drawing players, it's losing them. If it were otherwise we wouldn't be having these discussions. It's rare when a revamp happens to something wildly successful.

Auberon1983 · July 6

@YandereGirlfriend nailed it

While I’m having fun in Vengeance (I’m using it to level two alts), I am really starting to miss GH. I don’t play a RoA/Bomber/Unkillable DK etc. I play a dedicated healer, meaning I don’t have any offensive skills, just heals and buffs. My only proc set is SPC (and Ozezan, if that counts)

Vengeance is fun. It’s neat, and honestly, it makes for a good “set of training wheels” for people curious about PvP, but aren’t quite ready for other campaigns.

However, even I am nervous. I’m nervous that Vengeance will slowly become the rule, rather than the exception. I’d absolutely love if BOTH modes were available. It’s been said many times, let it replace the Under 50 campaign. I can’t speak for all platforms and servers, but on PS/NA, Icereach is effectively dead.

If Vengeance were to phase out “regular” PvP, I’d be done with it. That’s just the long and short of it. I’m no “sweat”, heck I just barely made Colonel, but GH is my PvP home.

It’s not “doom and gloom” for those who are worried. There is precedence for us to be.

sleepy_worm · July 6

marius_buys wrote: »

Oof, when the admin edits 11 out of 12 comments... lol

You do understand that 10 of those edits were removing a nested quote of the one actual post removed, right?

Kartalin · July 6

Auberon1983 wrote: »

My only proc set is SPC (and Ozezan, if that counts)

Tell us you want to be a ball group healer without saying you want to be a ball group healer

Slap on some arena staves and snow boots and you’re good lol

Our group has been enjoying vengeance, it’s a nice diversion from the usual and lets us play with friends that we aren’t usually able to (non-ball groupers). If they can get this nailed down eventually and fix lag without too many drastic changes that allows a decent variety of build diversity then this could be amazing for the game

ArchMikem · July 6

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc)

Back when Julianos was the hot gear set were better days. Oh man, Twice Born Star too.

Radiate77 · July 6

ArchMikem wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

No more so than harping on the "tourists" who aren't "real PvPers".
Anyway, I have to agree that PvP became SetVSet so long ago. After Vengeance ends I suspect, just like me, a lot of former PvP players will leave again rather than suffer through the broken set battle that Live has become.

ESO PvP has always been "set vs set" (even back when you only had access to hundings/agility etc)

Back when Julianos was the hot gear set were better days. Oh man, Twice Born Star too.

You can really tell a lot of these people were never around for that, back when our only viable procs were a Monster Set and Arena Weapon.

Back then you were gear-checked the second you got hit by a Crystal Frag, but your gear certainly didn’t play for you.

Auberon1983 · July 6

Kartalin wrote: »

Auberon1983 wrote: »

My only proc set is SPC (and Ozezan, if that counts)

Tell us you want to be a ball group healer without saying you want to be a ball group healer Slap on some arena staves and snow boots and you’re good lol

Our group has been enjoying vengeance, it’s a nice diversion from the usual and lets us play with friends that we aren’t usually able to (non-ball groupers). If they can get this nailed down eventually and fix lag without too many drastic changes that allows a decent variety of build diversity then this could be amazing for the game

No thanks. I am not a fan of ball groups. I either go in with a small group of guildmates, or just run ad hoc groups with other solo players.

I wouldn’t run in a ball group. Frankly I think they’re a huge source of the lag/latency we’re seeing in GH