Population shrinking, please BRING CROSSPLAY QUICK

xylena_lazarow · June 15

Vengeance will revitalize PvP. It had 600 players on at once for the test. That's the direction the devs are going.

fizzybeef · June 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vengeance will revitalize PvP. It had 600 players on at once for the test. That's the direction the devs are going.

Vengeance is the nail in the coffin if this ever goes live.
And i doubt on Ps Eu are 600 players in total left.

No way there are gonna be 600 in pvp unless crossplay / cross server happens

xylena_lazarow · June 15

fizzybeef wrote: »

No way there are gonna be 600 in pvp

Were you there for the test? There were definitely hundreds on at once, more than I've seen since launch, and exceeding launch numbers according to the dev post. The promise of "fair" PvP is popular, players new and old came out in force for the test, even if the forums are vocal about preserving an irreversibly broken build system.

AngryPenguin · June 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vengeance will revitalize PvP. It had 600 players on at once for the test. That's the direction the devs are going.

A mandated vengeance mode will be the death nail for ESO PvP.

As a primary PvP player yourself it baffles me how you've come to the conclusions you have regarding vengeance mode. Vengeance mode was just supposed to be a test anyway, so ZOS could gather information to improve their actual PvP mode. If it becomes more than that then ZOS wasn't being honest with us in the first place.

fizzybeef · June 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

No way there are gonna be 600 in pvp

Were you there for the test? There were definitely hundreds on at once, more than I've seen since launch, and exceeding launch numbers according to the dev post. The promise of "fair" PvP is popular, players new and old came out in force for the test, even if the forums are vocal about preserving an irreversibly broken build system.

Im speaking about PS EU mate.

fizzybeef · June 15

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vengeance will revitalize PvP. It had 600 players on at once for the test. That's the direction the devs are going.

A mandated vengeance mode will be the death nail for ESO PvP.

As a primary PvP player yourself it baffles me how you've come to the conclusions you have regarding vengeance mode. Vengeance mode was just supposed to be a test anyway, so ZOS could gather information to improve their actual PvP mode. If it becomes more than that then ZOS wasn't being honest with us in the first place.

Agree, if this is a no choice thing, instead of an extra vengence campaign, it will be a RIP.

And again on PS EU there arent even enough people to fill GREYHOST.
I know on PC EU greyhost and blackreach have queues.

The game is so incredible dead on PS EU its just sad

AngryPenguin · June 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

No way there are gonna be 600 in pvp

Were you there for the test? There were definitely hundreds on at once, more than I've seen since launch, and exceeding launch numbers according to the dev post. The promise of "fair" PvP is popular, players new and old came out in force for the test, even if the forums are vocal about preserving an irreversibly broken build system.

Read the "press release" from the vengeance test again. The numbers they compared the test to were the numbers the week prior to the test, not in relation to what the population caps were originally. There is a tremendous amount of wordsmithing going on in that "press release".

If you think the current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken now you haven't seen anything yet compared to what a mandated vengeance mode would be. Just for starters, vengeance mode would completely disconnect PvP from PvE content. There would be no reason to PvE anymore if a vengeance mode was mandated. What effect do you think that will/would have on the game overall? And the only thing that mattered in vengeance mode was which zerg was bigger. There was virtually zero skill gap between players. Vengeance mode makes the floor and the ceiling the same thing.

xylena_lazarow · June 15

fizzybeef wrote: »

The game is so incredible dead on PS EU its just sad

It's not much better on PC/NA, prime time is its last life support. I was skeptical of Vengeance and really hated it at first. But it brought players into PvP from out of nowhere like nothing I've ever seen in this game, and I have to admit the concept is a solid foundation, the skill lines they added on PTS are already a huge improvement.

xylena_lazarow · June 15

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If you think the current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken now

Do you disagree?

AngryPenguin · June 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If you think the current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken now

Do you disagree?

How can anyone agree with the statement "...current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken...." when ZOS still has done nothing to fix RoA or heal and shield stacking?

We've been begging for changes to RoA since it's inception and for heal and shield stacking limitations for more than 5 years now. You yourself have made numerous posts making these requests.

So how can anyone agree that the current live ESO is "irreversibly broken" when zos has made, apparently, pretty close to zero effort into fixing it?

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 16

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If you think the current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken now

Do you disagree?

How can anyone agree with the statement "...current live ESO PvP system is irreversibly broken...." when ZOS still has done nothing to fix RoA or heal and shield stacking?

We've been begging for changes to RoA since it's inception and for heal and shield stacking limitations for more than 5 years now. You yourself have made numerous posts making these requests.

So how can anyone agree that the current live ESO is "irreversibly broken" when zos has made, apparently, pretty close to zero effort into fixing it?

Not to forget about 50k hp nb ´s and wardens who still deal tons of damage, almost 60k hp one bar wardens in swift. I rather bomb 10 ball groups then fighting these unkillable tower runners

barney2525 · June 16

I think part of it could be switching to Account wide achievements. If you wanted to have specific skills on your additional characters, you had to level them up. Takes a lot of time and play. That's a lot of play time that is no longer required.

mrreow · June 16

I don’t see how PvP can be fair at this point without complete balance separation from PvE

But… if PvE and PvP are isolated like this then the game suffers as some players will never participate in another mode when they will have no gear or familiar abilities, very little similarities between two parts. They just will have zero interest if their skills and knowledge differ so much.

They could have separated them for 10 years and ease burden of balancing but they never did so it is important apparently to keep them relatively seamless. Maybe maintaining two games at once also isn’t optimal

Cerbolt · June 16

I doubt vengeance is going to save a whole server. People from other servers really struggle to understand how dead PSEU really is. I have a PC account as well that I like to hop between NA and EU, it's insane how much more populated they are compared to PSEU.

xylena_lazarow · June 16

Cerbolt wrote: »

I doubt vengeance is going to save a whole server.

Sadly the console versions will likely die either way unless they're able to implement Crossplay.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

So how can anyone agree that the current live ESO is "irreversibly broken" when zos has made, apparently, pretty close to zero effort into fixing it?

They've been playing whack-a-mole with balance problems for a decade, while every new update piles on more problems than they can possibly keep up with. Their PvE/PvP combined model will just keep introducing more Relequens and Rushing Agonies and Null Arcas and double spectral bows and exponentially more power for comp groups. The only "effort" that makes sense is to radically change their PvP design philosophy from the ground up. Hence, Vengeance.

reazea · June 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Cerbolt wrote: »

I doubt vengeance is going to save a whole server.

Sadly the console versions will likely die either way unless they're able to implement Crossplay.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

So how can anyone agree that the current live ESO is "irreversibly broken" when zos has made, apparently, pretty close to zero effort into fixing it?

They've been playing whack-a-mole with balance problems for a decade, while every new update piles on more problems than they can possibly keep up with. Their PvE/PvP combined model will just keep introducing more Relequens and Rushing Agonies and Null Arcas and double spectral bows and exponentially more power for comp groups. The only "effort" that makes sense is to radically change their PvP design philosophy from the ground up. Hence, Vengeance.

Playing whack a mole? What changes has ZOS even made to PvP in the last 5 years other than stackable siege and some minor rewards changes? They haven't made any notable changes to their PvP in years, so I'm not understanding what you're talking about.

xylena_lazarow · June 16

reazea wrote: »

What changes has ZOS even made to PvP in the last 5 years other than stackable siege and some minor rewards changes?

I take this to mean your personal experience hasn't changed much. That's the result of the whack-a-mole, such as with broken proc sets, which get nerfed, only to be replaced by an even more busted version of the same thing, like when they nerfed Dark Convergence only to push Rushing Agony on us. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

fizzybeef · June 17

PvP needs no Vengeance, pvp needs a new map and propper rewards

reazea · June 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

What changes has ZOS even made to PvP in the last 5 years other than stackable siege and some minor rewards changes?

I take this to mean your personal experience hasn't changed much. That's the result of the whack-a-mole, such as with broken proc sets, which get nerfed, only to be replaced by an even more busted version of the same thing, like when they nerfed Dark Convergence only to push Rushing Agony on us. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You claimed PvP was DOA in it's current state, while at the same time being fully aware that improvements you yourself have suggested numerous times have not been even attempted. Namely the problems with RoA and heal/shield stacking.

In other words, the problem is less the current state of Cyrodiil PvP and more a problem with ZOS' lack of implementing changes essentially the entire PvP community, including yourself, have been begging for.

moderatelyfatman · June 17

@AngryPenguin

I'm a but confused by your logic that separating PvE and PVP would mean that 'there would be no reason to PvE anymore if Vengeance mode was mandated'? Having a separate PvE and PvP skills is present in MMOs such as Guild Wars 2 and Black Desert Online and there are no complaints there. If anything, it has made the PvE and PvP communities happier as their builds tend to be more balanced.

If the issue is Vengeance mode itself, it's in its early days and can always be fine tune.

Tandor · June 17

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Part of the issue is a core aspect of the games design and that being that zones scale to level making older zones nearly as valuable as new zones for replay.

One one hand, this is a smart thing to do as it makes sure older content is still somewhat relevant.
On the other hand, it spreads out the player base more and more as the game gets larger making it harder for casual players to get warband quests done or anything that may require multiple players. It a double negative effect in that also makes the world feel dead wherever you are playing.

ESO has a lot of good things going for it, but it also has old design decisions that do not work so well for the game. Development over the past 10 years always feels to me like they have to work around past design decisions. It's always feels like "fake it till you make it" or "thow things at a wall and see what sticks". That is the impression I get anyway.

Making zones scale to level has enabled players to continue content after they would otherwise have out-levelled it, and also enables players to help out other players because they still get benefit from repeating content. If you don't scale to level then players do the content once and then move on, leaving newer players alone in deserted zones that everyone else has moved on from. That was the problem with the original Craglorn content, new players couldn't solo it and the experienced players had already moved on so there was no-one to group with.

moderatelyfatman · June 17

fizzybeef wrote: »

PvP needs no Vengeance, pvp needs a new map and propper rewards

You mean like what they did with BGs?
I'd prefer it if ZOS made what we had work properly first.

xylena_lazarow · June 17

reazea wrote: »

In other words, the problem is less the current state of Cyrodiil PvP and more a problem with ZOS' lack of implementing changes essentially the entire PvP community, including yourself, have been begging for.

They changed Vamp 3, Tarnished Nightmare, and Hardened Ward after player feedback that I myself was very involved in. Those were all improvements to the meta for sure, but there's still just so many things that are broken, unbalanced, unfun, etc. I spent weeks on the PTS digging through the build system (again) and while nuking Rushing Agony would be an improvement, there would still be a million other broken sets and mechanics still driving players away.

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

In other words, the problem is less the current state of Cyrodiil PvP and more a problem with ZOS' lack of implementing changes essentially the entire PvP community, including yourself, have been begging for.

They changed Vamp 3, Tarnished Nightmare, and Hardened Ward after player feedback that I myself was very involved in. Those were all improvements to the meta for sure, but there's still just so many things that are broken, unbalanced, unfun, etc. I spent weeks on the PTS digging through the build system (again) and while nuking Rushing Agony would be an improvement, there would still be a million other broken sets and mechanics still driving players away.

They also ignored all the feedback regarding subclassing in the PTS

xylena_lazarow · June 18

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

They also ignored all the feedback regarding subclassing in the PTS

TBF most of said feedback was "Baww! I hate change!" so I have no idea how the devs would've parsed anything meaningful from it, not like they were gonna suddenly go back on their plans. We were pretty clear about Assassination being grossly overpowered and Rushing Agony still needing to be gone, so no surprise PvP continues to fail.

sarahthes · June 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

They also ignored all the feedback regarding subclassing in the PTS

TBF most of said feedback was "Baww! I hate change!" so I have no idea how the devs would've parsed anything meaningful from it, not like they were gonna suddenly go back on their plans. We were pretty clear about Assassination being grossly overpowered and Rushing Agony still needing to be gone, so no surprise PvP continues to fail.

I don't think fixing PvP was part of their goal with this pts at all. They seem kind of averse to touching it until they're finished their vengeance tests. Which sort of makes sense I guess but tweaking one set wouldn't render their testing useless so I'm not sure why they don't remove that particular set in the short term.

Pixiepumpkin · June 18

Tandor wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Part of the issue is a core aspect of the games design and that being that zones scale to level making older zones nearly as valuable as new zones for replay.

One one hand, this is a smart thing to do as it makes sure older content is still somewhat relevant.
On the other hand, it spreads out the player base more and more as the game gets larger making it harder for casual players to get warband quests done or anything that may require multiple players. It a double negative effect in that also makes the world feel dead wherever you are playing.

ESO has a lot of good things going for it, but it also has old design decisions that do not work so well for the game. Development over the past 10 years always feels to me like they have to work around past design decisions. It's always feels like "fake it till you make it" or "thow things at a wall and see what sticks". That is the impression I get anyway.

Making zones scale to level has enabled players to continue content after they would otherwise have out-levelled it, and also enables players to help out other players because they still get benefit from repeating content. If you don't scale to level then players do the content once and then move on, leaving newer players alone in deserted zones that everyone else has moved on from. That was the problem with the original Craglorn content, new players couldn't solo it and the experienced players had already moved on so there was no-one to group with.

1. Already aware, what you asserted I already covered under "....as it makes sure older content is still somewhat relevent."
2. WoW has been dealing with that forever, and yet still has a population well exceeding ESO. Not really a major problem there, would not be a problem here.
3. My point is still relevant. "On the other hand, it spreads out the player base more and more as the game gets larger making it harder for casual players to get warband quests done or anything that may require multiple players. It a double negative effect in that also makes the world feel dead wherever you are playing. "

MISTFORMBZZZ · June 19

Honestly, crossplay is one of the few major solutions that could breathe new life into ESO, especially for PvP and veteran content. Right now, the community feels split and stagnant. When players say zones are empty or PvP feels dead, it's not just a content issue—it's a population distribution issue. Crossplay would help consolidate fragmented player bases, giving more opportunity for grouping, faster queue times, and healthier economies.

I get that there are tech and policy hurdles—different platforms, certification processes, even balancing concerns. But other MMOs have made it work, and in ESO’s case, the benefits outweigh the downsides at this point.

And for anyone worried about PvP imbalance from different input methods (like controller vs. keyboard/mouse), give players the option to toggle crossplay in PvP instances, like different campaigns. There are solutions—what's missing is commitment from ZOS to prioritize it.

Population shrinkage isn't going away on its own, and without bold steps like crossplay, we’re just patching holes instead of fixing the ship.

Cooperharley · June 19

I imagine cross play will be a temporary bandaid over a bullet hole. ZOS will still have to fix underlying core game issues and player retention afterwards.

ThetaSigma · June 19

End game no longer exists, try to find a prog group for anything hard especially trials and it’s difficult. This was before the latest update and there’s been no improvement since. I cancel subscription I think because it’s just fallen apart.