Here is what I don't understand

SeaGtGruff · May 7

SMG_Spytock wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I feel like the whole overland difficulty issue is a player-created issue.

A lot of players— I’m tempted to say “the average player,” but I’m not sure if that would be accurate— look for the most powerful weapons and strongest armor, not to mention the most useful spells, to make it as easy as possible to withstand attacks and kill enemies as quickly as possible.

Not everyone plays that way. When I watch streamers play a single-player CRPG, a lot of them will deliberately create a specific type of character and limit themselves to specific types of armor and weapons and spells, even if those aren’t the ones which will make the game much easier to complete.

But a lot of players do play that way.

Overland content is going to be trivial if the players do everything in their power to make it trivial. And it is their right to do so, if that’s what they want to do.

I don’t know how the increase to overland difficulty is going to work, but I think I can safely predict that players who opt into it are going to do everything in their power to make it trivial to burn through. Subclassing will inevitably be part of that, but they would still approach the game the same way even if subclassing were cancelled, because finding every possible way to make content as trivial as possible— be it in overland, in vet trials, or in PvP— is how they like to play the game.

I think you overthink it. My wife and i stopped playing because the game get so boring from level 1, naked, *** weapons and armor, you just 2 shot everything.

There are alot of quests chains that have really awesome story buildup, then you get get to fight the bad guy that killed all the guards, burned every building down and fear only the devil himself. You manage to kill him with 2 lightning bolts.

It isn't just the gear that makes players so awesome, which is why you can still melt through dangerous foes while naked and using low-level "trash" weapons. It's also the passive abilities and active abilities.

But you're missing my point, which is "that players who opt into it ["vet" overland] are going to do everything in their power to make it trivial to burn through. Subclassing will inevitably be part of that, but they would still approach the game the same way even if subclassing were cancelled."

moderatelyfatman · May 7

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The subclassing will cause massive nerfs which result in harder overland whether you like it or not and especially if you don’t use subclassing. My prediction.

Harder overland being worked on currently is a separate thing entirely.

It's already happened, just see SkinnyCheek's latest video: nerfs to Pillagers to counter the crazy level of new ulti gen and a host of other ones.
If you play your regular set up in patch 46, you'll be slapping like a pillow.

Pixiepumpkin · May 7

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The subclassing will cause massive nerfs which result in harder overland whether you like it or not and especially if you don’t use subclassing. My prediction.

Harder overland being worked on currently is a separate thing entirely.

It's already happened, just see SkinnyCheek's latest video: nerfs to Pillagers to counter the crazy level of new ulti gen and a host of other ones.
If you play your regular set up in patch 46, you'll be slapping like a pillow.

Yep, people on the PTS are already exclaiming how much they were promoting subclassing and now how much they hate it.

Its a seachange that affects WAY to many aspects of the game and does so in a way that will make it cost prohibitive to balance.

Many people here, including the devs seem to have forgotten what it is like to gear in this game as a new player. Its MASSIVELY confusing. It took me literal years before I could put a reasonable set together and even today I fail at the minor nuances of set building.

Subclassing takes this to a level never before seen. The strong will get stronger, the weak will become weaker as normal casual players try to build a set and see it go nowhere.

I think its going to cause a lot of people to leave the game because they will not be able to measure up to what will eventually become the norm in damage throughput, survivability, etc.

old_scopie1945 · May 7

This whole rigmarole is making me more depressed with the game each day. I now find myself playing other games more and more each day. I have not been confident with the decision makers at ZOS for some time, but this takes the biscuit. Now I see the game I had loved going into a very dark place.

SilverBride · May 7

I am feeling very down about this, too. I'm not playing any other games but I am playing this one less and less every day.

I've always been one of the first to shoot down doomsday posts but this time I do see this game going down a very bad path, and I worry for its future. Subclassing is the main reason, although there are others.

If they increase base overland difficulty with whatever their plans are that will be it for me.

Phen0meenal · May 7

SilverBride wrote: »

I've always been one of the first to shoot down doomsday posts

Not just doomsday posts, but any suggestions. I think I recall you shooting down someone asking for something as small as the addition of an arachnophobia mode? Something about the game not needing to change for that person alone?
or in the past when people have brought up the potential addition of overland difficulty options and you shot them down saying smth like "ZOS has the data. We don't need this." and now you don't trust ZOS and their data?

SilverBride wrote: »

I do see this game going down a very bad path, and I worry for its future. Subclassing is the main reason, although there are others.

I'd say it's going down a very good path now. As someone who's played on and off since the beta, the overland difficulty changes and opening up the classes so that the gameplay atleast feels a LITTLE more like it does in the other TES games is very exciting. I always had an issue with the classes being so extremely rigid and locked down, but I kept that to myself.

SilverBride · May 7

Phen0meenal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I've always been one of the first to shoot down doomsday posts

Not just doomsday posts, but any suggestions. I think I recall you shooting down someone asking for something as small as the addition of an arachnophobia mode? Something about the game not needing to change for that person alone?
or in the past when people have brought up the potential addition of overland difficulty options and you shot them down saying smth like "ZOS has the data. We don't need this." and now you don't trust ZOS and their data?

My concern in this thread is about subclassing and increased overland difficulty and how they will work together. I foresee nothing good coming from this and am also feeling down about these changes as another poster had expressed.

Rungar · May 7

i really dont think they can do overland difficulty without modifying the combat system. It will be too hard for anyone that is new and still too easy for vets. When there's 10 lightyears in between the floor and ceiling it kinda puts zos in a pickle in terms of implementing content.

DenverRalphy · May 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

<snip>
Many people here, including the devs seem to have forgotten what it is like to gear in this game as a new player. Its MASSIVELY confusing. It took me literal years before I could put a reasonable set together and even today I fail at the minor nuances of set building.
<snip>

This right here is what bugs me the most over the past few updates and now subclassing.

I look at the changes and can't help but think that the "Workshopping" phase prior to development was done through the eyes of employees/devs/etc.. who have unlimited access to resources, gear, CP, armory slots, ESO+ and Crown Store exclusives, etc.. and thus don't think twice about having to rebuild their characters or lose sweat equity. Because they have instant and unfettered access to all of it. Forgetting that their ideas need to work for players who don't have instant access to all of that, don't look forward to being forced to grind it out all over again, and have actually built attachments to their character after a ton of sweat and time invested.

Ragnarok0130 · May 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The subclassing will cause massive nerfs which result in harder overland whether you like it or not and especially if you don’t use subclassing. My prediction.

Harder overland being worked on currently is a separate thing entirely.

It's already happened, just see SkinnyCheek's latest video: nerfs to Pillagers to counter the crazy level of new ulti gen and a host of other ones.
If you play your regular set up in patch 46, you'll be slapping like a pillow.

Yep, people on the PTS are already exclaiming how much they were promoting subclassing and now how much they hate it.

Its a seachange that affects WAY to many aspects of the game and does so in a way that will make it cost prohibitive to balance.

Many people here, including the devs seem to have forgotten what it is like to gear in this game as a new player. Its MASSIVELY confusing. It took me literal years before I could put a reasonable set together and even today I fail at the minor nuances of set building.

Subclassing takes this to a level never before seen. The strong will get stronger, the weak will become weaker as normal casual players try to build a set and see it go nowhere.

I think its going to cause a lot of people to leave the game because they will not be able to measure up to what will eventually become the norm in damage throughput, survivability, etc.

This is really sounding like U35 where the devs promised to “raise the floor and lower the ceiling” when what really happened was the ceiling was able to recover a lot of our effectivness since we either understand builds really well and can compensate via changes (or know those who do to adjust our builds) while the floor was now in the basement. Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus since many people are tired of ZOS randomly shaking up the etcha sketch with sweeping changes for no reason at all.

SilverBride · May 7

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

Erickson9610 · May 7

SilverBride wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

I keep seeing players eager to return because of Subclassing. Update 35's combat changes didn't inspire people to return like Update 46's combat changes will.

SilverBride · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

I keep seeing players eager to return because of Subclassing. Update 35's combat changes didn't inspire people to return like Update 46's combat changes will.

Well the PTS posts aren't encouraging.

DenverRalphy · May 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

I keep seeing players eager to return because of Subclassing. Update 35's combat changes didn't inspire people to return like Update 46's combat changes will.

Can you point me in the direction so I can see that for myself? Forgive me for being skeptical, but I honestly can't fathom it. I would honestly like to be shown otherwise though.

BagOfBadgers · May 7

@SilverBride Maybe get on the PTS, see for yourself and add to the posts on the "Offical" U46 threads. Kevin has acknowledged that there are things to be done when players are not subclasssing and that ZOS will address that in U47, take that with a pinch/shovel of salt.

If you want to be seen by ZOS, get facts and go to the PTS threads. Threads on here will get lost in the noise.

You are now feeling what many have due to U35, AWA, Class nerfs, weapon nerfs, shrinking player base, 14 day selling limit, etc, etc.

Personally this update is great for me as my mag/stam Templars and stam Warden will be viable again + my Pet Sorc has more damage. Group wise it seems that DK Tanking is going to be more difficult and the power creep for high PDS seems to have been lessened.

I fear that you will not find much sympathy on here for your plight due to previous statements and posts you have made, where you have dismissive of others. I wish it was not true but alas, you are maybe in the “reap what you sow”, stages.

Is ESO and us players going away, nope. Is your experiences and enjoyment of ESO going to change, probably. Only you can change that and how you feel about it.

SilverBride · May 7

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride Maybe get on the PTS, see for yourself and add to the posts on the "Offical" U46 threads. Kevin has acknowledged that there are things to be done when players are not subclasssing and that ZOS will address that in U47, take that with a pinch/shovel of salt.

If you want to be seen by ZOS, get facts and go to the PTS threads. Threads on here will get lost in the noise.

You are now feeling what many have due to U35, AWA, Class nerfs, weapon nerfs, shrinking player base, 14 day selling limit, etc, etc.

Personally this update is great for me as my mag/stam Templars and stam Warden will be viable again + my Pet Sorc has more damage. Group wise it seems that DK Tanking is going to be more difficult and the power creep for high PDS seems to have been lessened.

I fear that you will not find much sympathy on here for your plight due to previous statements and posts you have made, where you have dismissive of others. I wish it was not true but alas, you are maybe in the “reap what you sow”, stages.

Is ESO and us players going away, nope. Is your experiences and enjoyment of ESO going to change, probably. Only you can change that and how you feel about it.

I have not been dismissive of others' experiences just by relating my own feedback on how changes did or did not affect me personally.

And I am not looking for sympathy, but rather just giving my feedback to ZoS.

Pixiepumpkin · May 7

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

I fear that you will not find much sympathy on here for your plight due to previous statements and posts you have made, where you have dismissive of others. I wish it was not true but alas, you are maybe in the “reap what you sow”, stages.

Only the stubborn and foolhearty would base opinions on their feelings of a person, not the subject matter.

@SilverBride and I have pretty much agreed on nothing. We have argued back and forth countless times so much that I know her name and I assume she knows mine. And yet, I 100% agree with just about, if not every statement she has made about Subclassing and how it is runing playstyles for a massive chunk of the playerbase.

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Is ESO and us players going away, nope.

That remains to be seen.I have met a fair number of players who are not interested in subclassing and afraid for what it will do to the game. ZOS does not have a good track record with the implentation of these types of things and their balance passes have always been met with frustration and for good reason. I am reminded of when arcanists were nerfed last year due to stam arcanist massively overperforming...meanwhile magicka arcanist were middle of the road, literally. And yet the measures taken by the dev team were to nerf the arcanist in way that it affected both stam and magicka, pushing mag toons farther down the list to darn near uselessness....and mag has STILL not recovered from that.

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Is your experiences and enjoyment of ESO going to change, probably. Only you can change that and how you feel about it.

Experiences will change, enjoyment will change and not for the better. The only option pure class players have if they want to play a class effectively will be to look elswhere for their gaming entertainment desires. Which is in contrast to your assertion that players are not going away.

SilverBride · May 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

@SilverBride and I have pretty much agreed on nothing. We have argued back and forth countless times so much that I know her name and I assume she knows mine. And yet, I 100% agree with just about, if not every statement she has made about Subclassing and how it is runing playstyles for a massive chunk of the playerbase.

This is true. And I completely agree with almost everything @Pixiepumpkin has said on this subject, too.

zaria · May 7

Rungar wrote: »

i really dont think they can do overland difficulty without modifying the combat system. It will be too hard for anyone that is new and still too easy for vets. When there's 10 lightyears in between the floor and ceiling it kinda puts zos in a pickle in terms of implementing content.

Overland difficulty would be optional, I assume with more xp and better rewards.

Daoin · May 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

I fear that you will not find much sympathy on here for your plight due to previous statements and posts you have made, where you have dismissive of others. I wish it was not true but alas, you are maybe in the “reap what you sow”, stages.

Only the stubborn and foolhearty would base opinions on their feelings of a person, not the subject matter.

@SilverBride and I have pretty much agreed on nothing. We have argued back and forth countless times so much that I know her name and I assume she knows mine. And yet, I 100% agree with just about, if not every statement she has made about Subclassing and how it is runing playstyles for a massive chunk of the playerbase.

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Is ESO and us players going away, nope.

That remains to be seen.I have met a fair number of players who are not interested in subclassing and afraid for what it will do to the game. ZOS does not have a good track record with the implentation of these types of things and their balance passes have always been met with frustration and for good reason. I am reminded of when arcanists were nerfed last year due to stam arcanist massively overperforming...meanwhile magicka arcanist were middle of the road, literally. And yet the measures taken by the dev team were to nerf the arcanist in way that it affected both stam and magicka, pushing mag toons farther down the list to darn near uselessness....and mag has STILL not recovered from that.

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Is your experiences and enjoyment of ESO going to change, probably. Only you can change that and how you feel about it.

Experiences will change, enjoyment will change and not for the better. The only option pure class players have if they want to play a class effectively will be to look elswhere for their gaming entertainment desires. Which is in contrast to your assertion that players are not going away.

yet even when the crowd were adding mag and stam before every class i had no problem keeping the basic attributes i enjoyed playing on my characters even if they supposedly effected dps in a big way..until now, where not only am i hearing theres another update to needlessly changing the way my characters operate but infact playing them exactly as i did before (again) means they will be weaker overall anyway. while some were weaker than others anyway (which i thought was a good thing) apparently due to the need of adding subclassing to overcomplicating things further (again) my chars became no longer even unique. but most of all the question i have been asking and getting no reply except what subclassing will be doing to an already dwindling population, is what exactly is this doing to make eso lively again and make new players want to join. so far i am seeing no evidence that this is a good change for numbers, infact other than an innitial boost to actaully see it in action the games in just the same boat as before. and even the forums are just a repeat of the same tone in a different language. i will say though 'i used to be a plar' sounds better than 'i am a plar' but i must repeat although i look forward to this update being a success for anyone that enjoys it, i paid for my classes and through good or bad thats what i personally want them to be, what i paid for and not a mix of everthing. its also probably plain to see i did not surf the web for somene to tell me which race to chose for my characters but why not subrace them too while subclassing, i think it would be nice for the theme of things

Imza · May 7

Rungar wrote: »

i really dont think they can do overland difficulty without modifying the combat system. It will be too hard for anyone that is new and still too easy for vets. When there's 10 lightyears in between the floor and ceiling it kinda puts zos in a pickle in terms of implementing content.

All they have to do is undo Tamriel Unlimited..... Bring back the difficulty levels like what they had before One Tamriel - now that would be an AWESOME change

Imza · May 8

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride Maybe get on the PTS, see for yourself and add to the posts on the "Offical" U46 threads. Kevin has acknowledged that there are things to be done when players are not subclasssing and that ZOS will address that in U47, take that with a pinch/shovel of salt.

If you want to be seen by ZOS, get facts and go to the PTS threads. Threads on here will get lost in the noise.

You are now feeling what many have due to U35, AWA, Class nerfs, weapon nerfs, shrinking player base, 14 day selling limit, etc, etc.

Personally this update is great for me as my mag/stam Templars and stam Warden will be viable again + my Pet Sorc has more damage. Group wise it seems that DK Tanking is going to be more difficult and the power creep for high PDS seems to have been lessened.

I fear that you will not find much sympathy on here for your plight due to previous statements and posts you have made, where you have dismissive of others. I wish it was not true but alas, you are maybe in the “reap what you sow”, stages.

Is ESO and us players going away, nope. Is your experiences and enjoyment of ESO going to change, probably. Only you can change that and how you feel about it.

people change over time - and opinions give way to new ones or become entrenched - this game is now 10 yrs old and many people who play have also changed IRL

Please try not to pick on someone because of what they may have said in the past.

Edit: Try to keep it based on the subject at hand/being discussed...

BagOfBadgers · May 8

@SilverBride OK my feed back is for me it's good and my non subclassed Sorc has gained DPS and I now parse 95K (so about67-70K in boss fights) while using the sets and skills I run in content (not dummy humping gear!)

@Pixiepumpkin I have previously said for me it's good BUT I would stop it as I don't want anyone to feel like I did with U35 and other things ZOS has been tone death with.

I'm hearing and seeing a lot more people being positive and having fun with builds.

I'm neither stubborn or fool hearty, thank you for that assumption.

@Imza

Silver does not need defending as they stand by their comments.

I'm going to ask ZOS to close this thread as it has run it's course.

SilverBride · May 8

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

I'm going to ask ZOS to close this thread as it has run it's course.

As the OP of this thread I do not wish for it to be closed. There has been some good discussion and I feel there is more that can be discussed.

SilverBride · May 8

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride OK my feed back is for me it's good and my non subclassed Sorc has gained DPS and I now parse 95K (so about67-70K in boss fights) while using the sets and skills I run in content (not dummy humping gear!)

Is your Sorcerer Pet or No Pet?

My oldest and most loved Character is a Sorcerer that has been no pet for a very long time now. I am most worried about what this will do to her.

Gilvoth · May 8

Phen0meenal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I've always been one of the first to shoot down doomsday posts

Not just doomsday posts, but any suggestions. I think I recall you shooting down someone asking for something as small as the addition of an arachnophobia mode? Something about the game not needing to change for that person alone?
or in the past when people have brought up the potential addition of overland difficulty options and you shot them down saying smth like "ZOS has the data. We don't need this." and now you don't trust ZOS and their data?

SilverBride wrote: »

I do see this game going down a very bad path, and I worry for its future. Subclassing is the main reason, although there are others.

I'd say it's going down a very good path now. As someone who's played on and off since the beta, the overland difficulty changes and opening up the classes so that the gameplay atleast feels a LITTLE more like it does in the other TES games is very exciting. I always had an issue with the classes being so extremely rigid and locked down, but I kept that to myself.

you are among Many Many people who felt and did the exact same as you and just accepted the horrible rigid setups and we now see a relaxing of the rules a bit enough for us to reach out and expand on what elderscrolls character design can actually stand out in among all other games and now mmo's

Gilvoth · May 8

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Like U35 I fully expect another end game exodus...

I expect to see an exodus of all types of players.

I keep seeing players eager to return because of Subclassing. Update 35's combat changes didn't inspire people to return like Update 46's combat changes will.

Can you point me in the direction so I can see that for myself? Forgive me for being skeptical, but I honestly can't fathom it. I would honestly like to be shown otherwise though.

im one of those people who is returning because of subclassing.

BasP · May 8

SilverBride wrote: »

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride OK my feed back is for me it's good and my non subclassed Sorc has gained DPS and I now parse 95K (so about67-70K in boss fights) while using the sets and skills I run in content (not dummy humping gear!)

Is your Sorcerer Pet or No Pet?

My oldest and most loved Character is a Sorcerer that has been no pet for a very long time now. I am most worried about what this will do to her.

The Bound Armaments nerf has been reverted on the PTS this week as well and you can activate Lightning Flood's synergy yourself now (which can be considered a small buff). So as it stands, your non-pet Sorc will only have 5% less Magicka and Stamina, which isn't much.

I hoped for more changes myself, but even if nothing else gets buffed before subclassing goes live your old character will do just fine.

Al_Ex_Andre · May 8

SilverBride wrote: »

One of the things being developed this year is an increase to general overland difficulty because some players find it too easy. Another is subclassing, that from what I am reading will increase player damage significantly.

Won't these just cancel each other out? At least as far as overland is concerned?

This.
There are the optimistic people of course you say the contrary though.

Just to get a clue, in WoW in every new xpac, former gear becomes useless, classes are completly refounded, and it's a new beginning. So there's no power creep.

In ESO there is pretty much power creep every xpac, and everything become easier where it shouldn't.

ESO devs know that. So they nerf with U35, now overland, and now the skills and passives, because of subclassing.

IMO subclassing will be mandatory, ie my main is nerfed right now if I don't subclass.

I am not against subclassing per se, because it's fresh air, though.

But yeah, they nerf the new power creep, that's the intent. It's no surprise.

Devs: stop nerfing jabs though (single target jabs is now weak, you know there are boss/Tho'at in IA? Or what about overland boss?) or buff their other spells that were nerfed in U35, I gave you a chance I spend money for your upcoming content, and I still want to play my Templar. TY

SilverBride · May 8

BasP wrote: »

The Bound Armaments nerf has been reverted on the PTS this week as well and you can activate Lightning Flood's synergy yourself now (which can be considered a small buff). So as it stands, your non-pet Sorc will only have 5% less Magicka and Stamina, which isn't much.

I hoped for more changes myself, but even if nothing else gets buffed before subclassing goes live your old character will do just fine.

Thank you.