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So Excited for Subclassing!!
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ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
Nothing?
If they can do it now, and they stay the same, they can still do it.
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.
It will affect any future content and players expectations.
Haven't you noticed that newer content tends to be harder because of power creep?
Yep, and I have noticed my theme builds and other player's theme builds in my guids compensating and working harder, while also staying on theme. It definitely makes it more fulfilling.
A lot of the new stuff is harder because of mechanics rather than DPS. There are very few DPS checks in newer content (though there are some). If you learn the mechanics (which imo is actually quite fun!) you can beat the content while doing fairly pedestrian DPS. Just look at Exiled Redoubt for an example!Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 10:48AM0 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
yes but in a way people have been correct it is coming anyway so time to accept and prepare accordingly, why i asked was because i love my arca and whats already been posted about it wont put me off personally. although if things were to be made better for arca class there would be no complaints here. also on athe other topic, so sorry for that but just find a nicer guild. in alot of guilds one of the first rules you'll find is harrasment will not be tolerated. thats why discord voice chat is important too even just to listen and see if people are talking your languageEdited by Daoin on May 2, 2025 11:23AM0 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 11:39AM4 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
The irony here is that you’re accusing others of hyperbole while constructing an entire argument around a cartoon version of their position.
No one—certainly not @Pixiepumpkin—is advocating for “naked players punching with fists” to be equal to fully built characters. What’s actually being said is that designing systems that disproportionately widen the gap between top and bottom performers creates structural imbalance. This isn’t solved by vague appeals to “balance.” It is the imbalance.
When a system like subclassing further inflates the ceiling without meaningful adjustments to the floor, you aren’t creating challenge. You’re creating stratification. And when challenge becomes synonymous with elitism, players disengage. This is not because they fear change, but because the game no longer values their participation.
You’re not defending balance. You’re defending a system that rewards optimization for its own sake and dressing it up as design integrity.Edited by sans-culottes on May 2, 2025 12:03PM8 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
The irony here is that you’re accusing others of hyperbole while constructing an entire argument around a cartoon version of their position.
No one—certainly not @Pixiepumpkin—is advocating for “naked players punching with fists” to be equal to fully built characters. What’s actually being said is that designing systems that disproportionately widen the gap between top and bottom performers creates structural imbalance. This isn’t solved by vague appeals to “balance.” It is the imbalance.
When a system like subclassing further inflates the ceiling without meaningful adjustments to the floor, you aren’t creating challenge. You’re creating stratification. And when challenge becomes synonymous with elitism, players disengage. This is not because they fear change, but because the game no longer values their participation.
You’re not defending balance. You’re defending a system that rewards optimization for its own sake and dressing it up as design integrity.
No, I am saying the "floor" is pretty far down there, and so what people are actually saying has nothing to do with the floor and everything to do with "it widens the gap between the top and my characters" rather than some abstract notion of "the floor".
And I think that is both self-evident (a character who is not adapted to change gets left behind by those who do, subclassing or not), and not really relevant to my overall argument (that efficiency maximization/optimization is a choice, one that is purely voluntary and unforced).
I do not contest that the system is very rewarding for people who enjoy the process of optimization. But it is also rewarding for people who like not being constrained to classes.
It only seems punishing to people who don't want to change while still remaining optimized, which is pretty much true of any change ever made (subclassing or not).
I also don't buy that this will result in some kind of inevitable stratification. It isn't hiding things behind mechanics the way weaving was. It isn't hard to figure out 3dps lines does more DPS than one DPS, one tank, and one healer skill line when mixed on a character. I think the only people hurt by this are people who don't want to change and want to be optimized still, or people who want to have a theme build and want to be optimized - and I think theme and non-adaption are either unrelated to optimization at best or are actively unoptimized at worst, so it's sort of like asking for the Moon(s).
I don't think pixie and silverbride are bad players, doomed to uselessness by this change that makes it impossible to keep up with the top-end players. I just think it is asking for too much to want to keep unchangingly to a theme or current-day build and also be a top-end player for the entire future.Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 12:25PM3 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on May 2, 2025 12:53PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes5 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭either way just keep complaints and defence up about it just makes me want to see for myself but not on PTS, the final release. and no doubt just like when a break from eso is needed and the never logging in again feeling seeps in but i log in for a few hours and play again for months its just going to be more of the same with subclassing0
-
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 2:45PM1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the customers who purchased ESO for its class centric design and whom have happily and without restraint suppored the devs and their livelihoods for a decade.
Edited by Pixiepumpkin on May 2, 2025 3:10PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes6 -
Maggusemm✭✭✭Nearly everyone is thrilled about subclassing and the possibilities.
There are the tinkerers who will have endless possibilities. There are players who really want to adjust to bosses, mechanics and enemies. There are players who like their main char and now use also other skills which are useful for the content. For example playing with beam with a sorcerer in Lucent Citadel hardmode. So many people just love the proposed changes.
There is however a smaller playerbase who have concerns, e.g. with regards to class identity. I am sure there will be some compensation, e.g. a buff when you use all three lines of one class. It will not be the META, but having class identity would contradict playing META anyhow.
So far no real argument was written why subclassing is not a full enrichment of the game. I can understand the concerns and some anxious comments. But it will be fine, that will be sure. And players will adapt to it.Edited by Maggusemm on May 2, 2025 3:13PM3 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nearly everyone is thrilled about subclassing and the possibilities.
There are the tinkerers who will have endless possibilities. There are players who really want to adjust to bosses, mechanics and enemies. There are players who like their main char. So many people just love the proposed changes.
There is however a smaller playerbase who have concerns, e.g. with regards to class identity. I am sure there will be some compensation, e.g. a buff when you use all three lines of one class. It will not be the META, but having class identity would contradict playing META anyhow.
So far no real argument was written why subclassing is not a full enrichment of the game. I can understand the concerns and some anxious comments. But it will be fine, that will be sure. And players will adapt to it.
Because it completely strips away class identity. People, MANY people if not MOST people purchase ESO for its RPG aspects.
Class identity goes two ways. Its something you play and something you observe.
This argument is all that is necessary for anyone displeased with this cheesy update."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes6 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Fear of new and drastic changes can be rather daunting to many, that is quite natural. On the other hand one has the Undaunted
1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?Edited by SilverBride on May 2, 2025 3:40PMPCNA4 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 3:47PM2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Not even remotely the same.
MMORPGS are well known to be "Forever games". Meaning the game will have ongoing development for as long as it makes money. No business is going to shut down a cash cow.
When I spend money on ESO, especially when I spend a year in advance for ESO+, I am investing into theg game for my leisure time.
When a change comes around that is LITERALLY game breaking for many players, its my right as a customer to stand up and voice my disapproval, and that is what I am doing here.
So, none of your back and forth "I need to win this argument" commentary has any validity whatsoever. Because not a SINGLE person yet has addressed the issue of the removal of class identity and how it impacts those players whom this is important to. And this is not a "wait and see if you like it" scenario, I can see fully RIGHT NOW what it has done to class identity and pure classes.
I am STATING as a long time paying customer both with ESO+ for every minute I have played the game and massive amounts of crowns purchased that I VEHEMENTLY DISLIKE the idea and implemenation of Subclassing. It has no appeal and destroys why I bought the game in the first place so many years ago.
I feel like I have beem mislead, I feel like I have been lied to and I feel like my value as a customer who has supported this project for an extremely long time has ZERO meaning to ZOS."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.PCNA3 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
Ya, I don't think they understand this part and I am having a hard time conveying why this is important, because to me its blazingly obvious why."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭
ESO is not being shut down, and is being actively developed. I understand you think paying a subscription once means every change must meet with your approval, but that's not how it works. Don't like a change, stop paying.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Not even remotely the same.
MMORPGS are well known to be "Forever games". Meaning the game will have ongoing development for as long as it makes money. No business is going to shut down a cash cow.
I fail to see how it is game-*breaking*. That has not been sufficiently illustrated to me.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »When I spend money on ESO, especially when I spend a year in advance for ESO+, I am investing into theg game for my leisure time.
When a change comes around that is LITERALLY game breaking for many players, its my right as a customer to stand up and voice my disapproval, and that is what I am doing here.
All I see is "I don't like it". Which is fair, but not necessarily a defeat of "I DO like it." And you are welcome to say you don't like it, but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying "THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN" which is a statement of fact rather than opinion and typically requires backing up with a "because".
I have addressed it, repeatedly. I do not value class identity, and I see you do. Why is class identity valuable? We already had this discussion and I didn't actually see a convincing answer (though I did see a *valid* one about nonverbal player communication).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, none of your back and forth "I need to win this argument" commentary has any validity whatsoever. Because not a SINGLE person yet has addressed the issue of the removal of class identity and how it impacts those players whom this is important to. And this is not a "wait and see if you like it" scenario, I can see fully RIGHT NOW what it has done to class identity and pure classes.
I am sorry you feel that way. For what it's worth, I feel the opposite, and perhaps your dislike and disappointment can be tempered for a bit by the enjoyment other people will find, even if you dislike the feature enough to shift games. I don't know what else to say - you aren't wrong for disliking it. Nor are you wrong for stating you dislike it.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I am STATING as a long time paying customer both with ESO+ for every minute I have played the game and massive amounts of crowns purchased that I VEHEMENTLY DISLIKE the idea and implemenation of Subclassing. It has no appeal and destroys why I bought the game in the first place so many years ago.
I feel like I have beem mislead, I feel like I have been lied to and I feel like my value as a customer who has supported this project for an extremely long time has ZERO meaning to ZOS.
Just wrong for saying "it has to stop" just because you don't like it.
I agree, but it wasn't, and now they are fixing that. Can't change the past, sadly.SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
I understand that it should have been there from the beginning. Indeed, I think it was even a terrible oversight that it was not.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
Ya, I don't think they understand this part and I am having a hard time conveying why this is important, because to me its blazingly obvious why.
I do not accept the argument that "it was this way then, therefore it shall be this way forevermore."
People who make mistakes try to fix them, even if the original mistake was years and years ago. They don't just go "well, it was wrong then, guess I should keep being wrong".Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 4:11PM1 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I chose to play a Nightblade because their skills match Vampires, I am not going to subclass into any other class because their skills do not match the theme of a Vampire character.3 -
Thysbe✭✭✭✭✭I have several issues with subclassing:
1) ESO is still the only MMORPG in the ES series - having recognizable set ups based on chosen class or weapon is a fundamental of player interaction - both in PVE and PVP. With subclassing you know actually zero what you are facing in either a PVP encounter or in a raid/group set up.
2) A massive power creep is to be expected - the only answer they obviously have is to nerf skills. Existing encounters will still be not designed for that damage and 90% of the existing PVE content will be reduced to zero challenge. Killing one of the biggest strenghts - ESO content never gets old - of the game. I don´t know what they tune the new content to, the last dungeon pack was pretty easy, having subclass power way to easy and needing only a few tries for a trifecta.
3) Only well informed players will benefit from the real subclassing advantages, widening the gap in playerbase again which they tried to reduce for years. Creating a working and sustainable build was already a challenge. With scribing + subclassing you need a whole interdisciplinary team to create a build. The complexity mutiplied:
650 unique sets
3k subclassing combinations
6 weapon skill lines
13 mundus signs
~3k possible scribing combinations
10 races
90% if the possible combinations will probably be trash but it kind of forces you to use youtube build since there is no way to see though this any more. I know a bit about ESO builds but I already gave up on trying to make something decent with scribing and the horrendous intial experimental costs with the ink ruined all desire for experiment in a second.
This is mainly a minmax issue ofc but if I create a build with the wrong skills it might not be sustainable in encounters, the buffs of the set won´t fit the skills (crit vs direct damage vs dot dmg, magical vs physical.....) resultig in beeing no fun to play at all.
6 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Here is a good argument to have it so if you subclass with Necromancer skills then your sub-classed Necromancer skills should not be as powerful as the skills of a true Necromancer, they are the Master of Necromancy where you are sub-classing into it and are thus only a mere Apprentice of Necromancy
This could be achieved by reducing your weapon and spell power in Sub-Classed skills without nerfing pure classes.5 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
ESO is not being shut down, and is being actively developed. I understand you think paying a subscription once means every change must meet with your approval, but that's not how it works. Don't like a change, stop paying.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Not even remotely the same.
MMORPGS are well known to be "Forever games". Meaning the game will have ongoing development for as long as it makes money. No business is going to shut down a cash cow.
I fail to see how it is game-*breaking*. That has not been sufficiently illustrated to me.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »When I spend money on ESO, especially when I spend a year in advance for ESO+, I am investing into theg game for my leisure time.
When a change comes around that is LITERALLY game breaking for many players, its my right as a customer to stand up and voice my disapproval, and that is what I am doing here.
All I see is "I don't like it". Which is fair, but not necessarily a defeat of "I DO like it." And you are welcome to say you don't like it, but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying "THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN" which is a statement of fact rather than opinion and typically requires backing up with a "because".
I have addressed it, repeatedly. I do not value class identity, and I see you do. Why is class identity valuable? We already had this discussion and I didn't actually see a convincing answer (though I did see a *valid* one about nonverbal player communication).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, none of your back and forth "I need to win this argument" commentary has any validity whatsoever. Because not a SINGLE person yet has addressed the issue of the removal of class identity and how it impacts those players whom this is important to. And this is not a "wait and see if you like it" scenario, I can see fully RIGHT NOW what it has done to class identity and pure classes.
I am sorry you feel that way. For what it's worth, I feel the opposite, and perhaps your dislike and disappointment can be tempered for a bit by the enjoyment other people will find, even if you dislike the feature enough to shift games. I don't know what else to say - you aren't wrong for disliking it. Nor are you wrong for stating you dislike it.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I am STATING as a long time paying customer both with ESO+ for every minute I have played the game and massive amounts of crowns purchased that I VEHEMENTLY DISLIKE the idea and implemenation of Subclassing. It has no appeal and destroys why I bought the game in the first place so many years ago.
I feel like I have beem mislead, I feel like I have been lied to and I feel like my value as a customer who has supported this project for an extremely long time has ZERO meaning to ZOS.
Just wrong for saying "it has to stop" just because you don't like it.
I agree, but it wasn't, and now they are fixing that. Can't change the past, sadly.SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
I understand that it should have been there from the beginning. Indeed, I think it was even a terrible oversight that it was not.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
Ya, I don't think they understand this part and I am having a hard time conveying why this is important, because to me its blazingly obvious why.
I do not accept the argument that "it was this way then, therefore it shall be this way forevermore."
People who make mistakes try to fix them, even if the original mistake was years and years ago. They don't just go "well, it was wrong then, guess I should keep being wrong".
You literally misinterpereted every single point I have made.
You use hyperoble in every argument, always missing the point.
bottom line is simple
I am a customer. I have a right to voice my concern/opinon about subclassing and how it will affect the game and how it affects me.
That is the end of the line."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
ESO is not being shut down, and is being actively developed. I understand you think paying a subscription once means every change must meet with your approval, but that's not how it works. Don't like a change, stop paying.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Not even remotely the same.
MMORPGS are well known to be "Forever games". Meaning the game will have ongoing development for as long as it makes money. No business is going to shut down a cash cow.
I fail to see how it is game-*breaking*. That has not been sufficiently illustrated to me.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »When I spend money on ESO, especially when I spend a year in advance for ESO+, I am investing into theg game for my leisure time.
When a change comes around that is LITERALLY game breaking for many players, its my right as a customer to stand up and voice my disapproval, and that is what I am doing here.
All I see is "I don't like it". Which is fair, but not necessarily a defeat of "I DO like it." And you are welcome to say you don't like it, but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying "THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN" which is a statement of fact rather than opinion and typically requires backing up with a "because".
I have addressed it, repeatedly. I do not value class identity, and I see you do. Why is class identity valuable? We already had this discussion and I didn't actually see a convincing answer (though I did see a *valid* one about nonverbal player communication).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, none of your back and forth "I need to win this argument" commentary has any validity whatsoever. Because not a SINGLE person yet has addressed the issue of the removal of class identity and how it impacts those players whom this is important to. And this is not a "wait and see if you like it" scenario, I can see fully RIGHT NOW what it has done to class identity and pure classes.
I am sorry you feel that way. For what it's worth, I feel the opposite, and perhaps your dislike and disappointment can be tempered for a bit by the enjoyment other people will find, even if you dislike the feature enough to shift games. I don't know what else to say - you aren't wrong for disliking it. Nor are you wrong for stating you dislike it.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I am STATING as a long time paying customer both with ESO+ for every minute I have played the game and massive amounts of crowns purchased that I VEHEMENTLY DISLIKE the idea and implemenation of Subclassing. It has no appeal and destroys why I bought the game in the first place so many years ago.
I feel like I have beem mislead, I feel like I have been lied to and I feel like my value as a customer who has supported this project for an extremely long time has ZERO meaning to ZOS.
Just wrong for saying "it has to stop" just because you don't like it.
I agree, but it wasn't, and now they are fixing that. Can't change the past, sadly.SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
I understand that it should have been there from the beginning. Indeed, I think it was even a terrible oversight that it was not.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
Ya, I don't think they understand this part and I am having a hard time conveying why this is important, because to me its blazingly obvious why.
I do not accept the argument that "it was this way then, therefore it shall be this way forevermore."
People who make mistakes try to fix them, even if the original mistake was years and years ago. They don't just go "well, it was wrong then, guess I should keep being wrong".
You literally misinterpereted every single point I have made.
You use hyperoble in every argument, always missing the point.
bottom line is simple
I am a customer. I have a right to voice my concern/opinon about subclassing and how it will affect the game and how it affects me.
That is the end of the line.
No one is denying you the right to be upset. All I am saying is calling for a feature I am really looking forward to to be removed/stopped/killed is something I do not appreciate, and justifying it solely with "I don't like it" isn't sufficient, because that's just putting your own likes and preferences above my own.
The only reasons (outlined above that I have seen) for removing subclassing is "class identity" (which is a nebulously defined concept with only somewhat evident objective virtues at best, and an utterly spurious notion that unreasonably constrains playstyles at worst) and the nonverbal interplayer communication, which *is* a good point. Just not important enough to me to override the goodness of subclassing, in my opinion.Edited by ragnarok6644b14_ESO on May 2, 2025 4:43PM2 -
ragnarok6644b14_ESO✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Here is a good argument to have it so if you subclass with Necromancer skills then your sub-classed Necromancer skills should not be as powerful as the skills of a true Necromancer, they are the Master of Necromancy where you are sub-classing into it and are thus only a mere Apprentice of Necromancy
This could be achieved by reducing your weapon and spell power in Sub-Classed skills without nerfing pure classes.
I don't necessarily want to get into this again, but effectively this is already how it works. The master of necromancy puts in less effort (skill points) for the same return than the subclassed necromancer.
However, the difference between what you said and the above is the subclass necromancer can still become a master if they put in the additional effort (as well they should).0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
ESO is not being shut down, and is being actively developed. I understand you think paying a subscription once means every change must meet with your approval, but that's not how it works. Don't like a change, stop paying.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
I was just responding to the question (what if other numbers get bigger and yours stay the same).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »
Someone else getting biggerer numbers doesn't affect that.It's always interesting when people come back with the argument of reducing options, when this is how the game has ALWAYS BEEN. Every time a new update nerfs or buffs classes, suddenly everyone is on the train to the newest meta, the shiny new build... until the next cycle. So exactly HOW is subclassing going to be any different? I've played this game long enough to see classes destroyed and return from the grave sometimes 'years' later... it's the same cycle in all MMOs. I've seen people leave- myself included- because the game became so stale after playing every class for years. Same skills, same rotations, same weapons... BORING. At least now with subclassing, any time I get bored I can swap a class line or two... it will keep people interested for much longer than maintaining classes that have grown completely stale IMO.
As someone else said, every time we have a major shakeup- all we hear are "the sky is falling" and usually followed up with, "I think this time I'm done for good" and yet they're still here for the next round of "the sky is falling".
The problem is, it drastically increases the gap between optimal and less optimal choices.
Opzimized builds nowadays can push 130k+, but non-optimal ones can still hit 100k. So you can still participate in group content and do most things just fine.
But what will happen when dps ceiling goes up by 40-50k and less optimal builds stay the same?
@SilverBride is right and you are completely incorrect. The average psychology behind any given damage dealing player is that the other players around them should be doing the same DPS. This has been EXTREMELY evident and observable for LITERAL DECADES now.
anyone who does not measure up gets harassed/bullied (smack given in dungeon/trials etc) and in many cases kicked from the group.
Increasing the damage gap between a non subclass player vs a subclass player is not a good thing. It might be for the ego of the people who think doing top damage means somehing in the real world, but its not a good thing.
Secondly, the people doing the same damage now, contrary to your assertion, WILL NOT be doing the same damage going forward as pure classes are being nerfed pretty much across the board. You can visit the PTS and witness this yourself.
If bullying an harassment is this bad, I am surprised anyone plays. I can't say I hit the top numbers now with my DPS but haven't been bullied on the dungeons I do.
That said, my main is a tank so I don't DPS religiously, and it's possible the bullying happens in whispers. I hope the report/ignore button works though as I am a firm believer that people shouldn't be harassed for playing their theme (provided they have put decent effort into making the theme work). That's true regardless of subclassing.
Unless you are top DPS in the game *right now*, not much will change. Their numbers get bigger, yours will not, but you already were getting bullied and harassed (if it is truly the case that this is a major problem) for not being the top anyways. It's not like bullies and harassers measure your distance from the top and increase their awfulness based on the gap.
And yet everything I said is true. Happens now in game and has been since I first started. In fact it's caused my wife and I to quit the game multiple times in the past. She will not even do a non-pug trial due to the harassment.
Widening the gap between a low DPS player and a high DPS player is not a good thing. That is the end of the discussion. There is nothing that comes beneficial in the game by doing so. All it allows for is more ego ego ego.
How do you propose making the game harder for anyone ever (one of the most called-for changes to overland) without widening this gap between a naked person punching with fists and a well-thought-out and carefully-played build?
The floor is pretty floor (reduce the damage in naked dudes punching?) so...
Where did I ever state that a naked player should be doing similar damage to someone who is outfitted in golds?
Hyerbole gets you nowhere. I defer to my previous post.
Your previous posts contain hyperbole, I think.
What you stated is "don't elevate the damage ceiling without elevating the damage floor to keep the gap narrow". In my opinion, the best way to keep that gap narrow is to balance things.
Balance is good. Sometimes balance requires nerfs. To not adapt to the nerfs, and instead cry about change, seems contradictory.
You don't actually *know*, without trying to adapt, how narrow the gap is between the average and the ceiling after subclassing.
You may know that you are below average, and you may not want to change anything, but there seems to be something hypocritical in crooning about how the top numbers are changing if you aren't even concerned with being average.
It starts to feel like a manufactured problem to complain about change, rather than a genuine issue.
Except that subclassing does not balance things at all, in fact it goes in the opposite direction. Creating a wider gap in damage output.
The classes being nerfed will not create "balance" it lowers the damage output of those classes while simultaneously buffs subclass builds, way beyond was is necessary in game.
This design decision by ZOS will force players who choose not to engage in subclassing to do so if they intend on keeping up with the social strucutre of the game regarding damage output thresholds.
And as far as not *knowing* and adapting. I DID NOT PURCHASE AND SPEND THOUSANDS, LITERALLY THOUSANDS of dollars on this game to be forced to "adapt" by subclassing my main and for eschewing class identity.
I hate weapon skill lines. I think guild skill lines are stupid, but I can see their place.
Being able to use a different professions abilities is extremely lame, and destroys all sense of class identity. Because class identity is not just want I play, but what I see being played.
Making changes to a game is one thing, adapting to those changes is one thing and I agree that both must happen. But when a core aspect of the game is rewritten after people have spent thousands of dollars on the game then we the people need to stand up and express to ZOS how utterly bad this decision is if they intend to maintain their current player base.
So do you think game direction should be based on a poll given only to those who spend thousands of dollars on it, or?
Because it would be fascinating if that were a business model (at *any* game company) just as a study of economics.
Currently, that idea for game direction is too radical of a change for me and I will have to think about how I feel about it; certainly it is a larger change to the game's core and unity of design (in the long run) than mere subclassing.
I never asserted that. Those are your words, your deflection.
Subclassing changes the dynamics of the game so severely that its not something that should be done.
It is completely disrespectful to the players who purchased ESO for its class centric design.
Subclassing changes some unfortunate dynamics of the game so completely that it corrects a long oversight in ESO's place in the TES universe.
It is a welcome sign of respect for the players who purchased ESO for its setting, world, lore, and potential.
I am sorry you purchased it because it had classes, but I hope you can understand why I might be happier that it will now not.
Not a good argument.
1. You purchased ESO and have had your fun. It was never promoted that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing". Yet, you had a blast these past 10 years. Now it gets better for you. The value of the money you invested continues on.
2. I purchased ESO and have had my fun. It was never promoited that "in 10 years we are going to release subclassing destroying class identity". The game is now, no longer appealing to me. The value of the money I invested no longer has any meaning except that I feel like I was mislead.
That is the difference. I should not have to point this out.
I think this gets to a deeper opinion on games as services: is money spent in the past intended for enjoyment in the past, or for enjoyment in the future?
If I buy a movie ticket, enjoy the film, and then complain when they stop showing it in theaters, is that reasonable? That's not a very good analogy but it is thought provoking.
Let's look at another service instead: if you pay for, say, the drink subscription at Panera and enjoy it several times, and then they change the flavor of drinks they offered some decade down the road to a flavor you do not like, did Panera lie to you for that whole decade? Has it made the enjoyment of those last 10 years less worthwhile somehow?
In the ESO case, if you buy a monthly subscription, enjoy it for a month, and then discontinue it, did you get your money's worth?
If you do not feel like you got your money's worth in those 10 years, that is a problem unrelated to subclassing. I certainly understand if you think you won't get your money's worth in the future, but you also haven't paid that money yet.
Not even remotely the same.
MMORPGS are well known to be "Forever games". Meaning the game will have ongoing development for as long as it makes money. No business is going to shut down a cash cow.
I fail to see how it is game-*breaking*. That has not been sufficiently illustrated to me.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »When I spend money on ESO, especially when I spend a year in advance for ESO+, I am investing into theg game for my leisure time.
When a change comes around that is LITERALLY game breaking for many players, its my right as a customer to stand up and voice my disapproval, and that is what I am doing here.
All I see is "I don't like it". Which is fair, but not necessarily a defeat of "I DO like it." And you are welcome to say you don't like it, but that isn't what you are saying. You are saying "THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN" which is a statement of fact rather than opinion and typically requires backing up with a "because".
I have addressed it, repeatedly. I do not value class identity, and I see you do. Why is class identity valuable? We already had this discussion and I didn't actually see a convincing answer (though I did see a *valid* one about nonverbal player communication).Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, none of your back and forth "I need to win this argument" commentary has any validity whatsoever. Because not a SINGLE person yet has addressed the issue of the removal of class identity and how it impacts those players whom this is important to. And this is not a "wait and see if you like it" scenario, I can see fully RIGHT NOW what it has done to class identity and pure classes.
I am sorry you feel that way. For what it's worth, I feel the opposite, and perhaps your dislike and disappointment can be tempered for a bit by the enjoyment other people will find, even if you dislike the feature enough to shift games. I don't know what else to say - you aren't wrong for disliking it. Nor are you wrong for stating you dislike it.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »I am STATING as a long time paying customer both with ESO+ for every minute I have played the game and massive amounts of crowns purchased that I VEHEMENTLY DISLIKE the idea and implemenation of Subclassing. It has no appeal and destroys why I bought the game in the first place so many years ago.
I feel like I have beem mislead, I feel like I have been lied to and I feel like my value as a customer who has supported this project for an extremely long time has ZERO meaning to ZOS.
Just wrong for saying "it has to stop" just because you don't like it.
I agree, but it wasn't, and now they are fixing that. Can't change the past, sadly.SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
I understand that it should have been there from the beginning. Indeed, I think it was even a terrible oversight that it was not.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It's not fear. It's disappointment that such a huge drastic change is being made that completely changes the way we have played for the past 11 years.
All players ever asked for was a class change token. So why this instead?
Because this is more in tune with the universe ESO is set in than a class change token...
Then it should have been that way from the beginning rather than after we have invested 11 years into our characters.
Ya, I don't think they understand this part and I am having a hard time conveying why this is important, because to me its blazingly obvious why.
I do not accept the argument that "it was this way then, therefore it shall be this way forevermore."
People who make mistakes try to fix them, even if the original mistake was years and years ago. They don't just go "well, it was wrong then, guess I should keep being wrong".
You literally misinterpereted every single point I have made.
You use hyperoble in every argument, always missing the point.
bottom line is simple
I am a customer. I have a right to voice my concern/opinon about subclassing and how it will affect the game and how it affects me.
That is the end of the line.
No one is denying you the right to be upset. All I am saying is calling for a feature I am really looking forward to to be removed is something I do not appreciate, and justifying it solely with "I don't like it" isn't sufficient, because that's just putting your own likes and preferences above my own.
The only reasons (outlined above that I have seen) for removing subclassing is "class identity" (which is a nebulously defined concept with non evident objective virtues at best, and an utterly spurious notion that unreasonably constrains playstyles at worst) and the nonverbal interplayer communication, which *is* a good point. Just not important enough to me to override the goodness of subclassing, in my opinion.
I never asked for it to be removed. AGAIN, you are putting words into my mouth I did not say.
BUT even if I did it's irrelevant to you. I am not concerend with your opinion. I only care about expressing mine and that is I do not like the idea nor the implementaiton of subclassing.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes6 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone's feedback is their own likes and preferences. That's what feedback is.PCNA5