Maybe a new mythic to balance subclassing?
Nemesis7884
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Like if you only use 1 class +20% damage, if you only use 2 classes +10%... values are just random...but something like that might help with balancing?
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Maggusemm✭✭✭that can be a very good idea for players who want to stay on a "pure class".
However, this item would need probably be in the meta setup, at least it should be better than the mythic which is used in a meta with subclassing with 3 classes.0 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Or subclassed skill effectiveness should only be a fraction of their pure class counterparts.
I have no idea why they didn't just go that route.
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tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That also means that you won’t be able to wear a full setup of gear either, or another mythic. Would this be better than what people currently wear?
Something like this should be added as a passive skill or CP or something rather than trying to jury rig a way for current builds (that will already lose a lot of power to upcoming nerfs) to try to catch up to the ridiculous power offerred by Subclassing.4 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anything that gives you an advantage should also come with a cost. I cited the example of banner bearer adding a penalty to recovery in another thread.
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Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »Anything that gives you an advantage should also come with a cost. I cited the example of banner bearer adding a penalty to recovery in another thread.
yeah, that makes things also more interesting... you could for example say that skills from sub classes cost 20% more to use or something along the lines or passives are 20% less effective etc...
Not sure whats the best thing to balance but I do think it will be easier to balance if you keep the existing class balance and add a bonus/malus system in depending if (or not) you use sub classes; rather than trying to balance all skills in all skill lines for all eventualities which seems extremely difficult and probably take another 1-2 years until we are back in a good spot...1 -
Erickson9610✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think Subclassing is fine as it is. All abilities need to be adjusted as if every Class skill line was a modular toolkit — that way they're equally powerful and you'd want to pick the skill lines that fit the build you're making, both thematically and also in terms of what type or kind of abilities you use.
Class skill lines should be adjusted to fit the damage dealer, healer, and tank roles more clearly, rather than being organized by theme.
It then makes sense that someone wanting to specialize in damage dealing should drop their healing and tanking lines, and so on to specialize in the other two roles. You'd always want some mix of the three roles when building for PvP, so it becomes a matter of how you wish to play.PC/NA — Lone Werewolf, the EP Templar Werewolf
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katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »Anything that gives you an advantage should also come with a cost. I cited the example of banner bearer adding a penalty to recovery in another thread.
yeah, that makes things also more interesting... you could for example say that skills from sub classes cost 20% more to use or something along the lines or passives are 20% less effective etc...
Not sure whats the best thing to balance but I do think it will be easier to balance if you keep the existing class balance and add a bonus/malus system in depending if (or not) you use sub classes; rather than trying to balance all skills in all skill lines for all eventualities which seems extremely difficult and probably take another 1-2 years until we are back in a good spot...
I would vote for the non-class skills (not the original class skills) to be reduced in damage instead, or something like that.
It’s not your inherent class so the argument would be that you aren’t as proficient with them. Jack of all trades, master of none.
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gc0018✭✭✭Sound great, yet I am afraid the ZOS won't make it out before U47 or U48 when the U35-like cataclysm already takes places.Images not allowed, sad1 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭Or they could just buff the class sets a LOT and make them to only work on "pure" class setups.Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....1
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cyclonus11✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We need mythic weapons. Perhaps we can have a class-specific set of weapons that can only be acquired by completing a set of challenging quests and tasks, similar to old epic weapons of games like Everquest. However, you can only complete the epic weapon quest and equip the weapon if you have a pure class build (no subclassing).2 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭While I’d prefer that the developers focus on properly balancing classes and skill lines, their general approach to both balance and build diversity remains disappointingly blunt: “throw a mythic at it.” Rather than untangling the increasingly incoherent class kits they’ve built up over the years, they now appear to be doubling down. Hence the incoming “subclassing” system.
To be fair, the idea of multiclassing in ESO could make sense if it followed the structure of traditional Elder Scrolls magic and skill systems. For instance, the single-player TES games had schools of magic rather than rigid class-based spells: illusion, conjuration, restoration, destruction, and so on. That was a framework flexible enough to support creativity without collapsing into chaos. If subclassing had been grounded in that structure, then it might have provided a thematic and mechanical throughline. Instead, what we have is an awkward compromise—a system that tries to please both players who value strong class identities and those who want complete mechanical freedom, while satisfying neither.
We have ended up with the worst of both worlds.
Scribing is a perfect case study. Players expected something like custom spell creation, as seen in Morrowind or Oblivion. What we got instead was Torchbearer and Trample: abilities that feel more like novelties from a forgotten card game than tools of a powerful mage. Whistling for your animal companion to run over your enemies, or waving a torch in wide circles, may have sounded clever on paper. In practice, they betray a lack of confidence in the source material and a refusal to take the fantasy seriously.Edited by sans-culottes on April 30, 2025 11:36AM1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The problem with this idea is that in order for a new mythic to boost my pure class character back up, I'd then lose the benefits of the mythic I'm currently wearing. Making the whole thing a wash. And if it boosted the proposed mythic to compensate for sacrificing your current mythic, then every pure class toon would be a slave to that one specific mythic item.
I wouldn't be happy with that.
Edited by DenverRalphy on April 30, 2025 12:23PM6 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »That also means that you won’t be able to wear a full setup of gear either, or another mythic. Would this be better than what people currently wear?
Something like this should be added as a passive skill or CP or something rather than trying to jury rig a way for current builds (that will already lose a lot of power to upcoming nerfs) to try to catch up to the ridiculous power offerred by Subclassing.
A passive CP is something that I’ve not thought about. A very interesting solution.0 -
Heronisan✭✭✭I still think Separating the abilities is the best solution.
If a skilltree is overperforming in subclass, then all nerfs done to it only apply to the subclassed version.
This way they can swing the hammer as much they want to nerf and change skills to work however they want, while leaving pure classes competetive.1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I still think Separating the abilities is the best solution.
If a skilltree is overperforming in subclass, then all nerfs done to it only apply to the subclassed version.
This way they can swing the hammer as much they want to nerf and change skills to work however they want, while leaving pure classes competetive.
Even easier still.. Just don't nerf the skills at all, and give a blanket 25% reduction to the effectiveness of any slotted subclassed skill. (note that I just picked 25% at random, it could be any appropriate value)
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El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »I think Subclassing is fine as it is. All abilities need to be adjusted as if every Class skill line was a modular toolkit — that way they're equally powerful and you'd want to pick the skill lines that fit the build you're making, both thematically and also in terms of what type or kind of abilities you use.
Class skill lines should be adjusted to fit the damage dealer, healer, and tank roles more clearly, rather than being organized by theme.
It then makes sense that someone wanting to specialize in damage dealing should drop their healing and tanking lines, and so on to specialize in the other two roles. You'd always want some mix of the three roles when building for PvP, so it becomes a matter of how you wish to play.
So make everything purely cosmetic. Pass.0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »I still think Separating the abilities is the best solution.
If a skilltree is overperforming in subclass, then all nerfs done to it only apply to the subclassed version.
This way they can swing the hammer as much they want to nerf and change skills to work however they want, while leaving pure classes competetive.
Even easier still.. Just don't nerf the skills at all, and give a blanket 25% reduction to the effectiveness of any slotted subclassed skill. (note that I just picked 25% at random, it could be any appropriate value)
That, and I would even go further. You would only be able to swap out a similar skill line. You couldn’t have three dps skill lines and would have to have a healer and tank skill line equivalent like newer pure classes have. No restrictions on those is insanely overpowered compared to pure classes. It’s like no thought was given to any consequences of this change and it’s a free for all. I have only been reading here and didn’t watch the reveal or whatever they called it, but are there are rules other than you have to keep one skill line? It’s just mind-boggling.
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randconfig✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »Or subclassed skill effectiveness should only be a fraction of their pure class counterparts.
I have no idea why they didn't just go that route.
Because why would you punish players for wanting to make their own creative/thematic builds? That completely defeats the purpose of the system...3 -
BasP✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I still think Separating the abilities is the best solution.
If a skilltree is overperforming in subclass, then all nerfs done to it only apply to the subclassed version.
This way they can swing the hammer as much they want to nerf and change skills to work however they want, while leaving pure classes competetive.
Even easier still.. Just don't nerf the skills at all, and give a blanket 25% reduction to the effectiveness of any slotted subclassed skill. (note that I just picked 25% at random, it could be any appropriate value)
That, and I would even go further. You would only be able to swap out a similar skill line. You couldn’t have three dps skill lines and would have to have a healer and tank skill line equivalent like newer pure classes have. No restrictions on those is insanely overpowered compared to pure classes. It’s like no thought was given to any consequences of this change and it’s a free for all. I have only been reading here and didn’t watch the reveal or whatever they called it, but are there are rules other than you have to keep one skill line? It’s just mind-boggling.
The thing is, not every class has such clearly defined skill lines. What's the Sorcerer's tanking line, for example? I suppose it'd be Daedric Summoning, seeing as that skill line contains Ward and Bound Aegis. But the skill line also contains the pets, which make up a large part of a regular Sorcerer's damage, as well as staple non-pet Sorc skills such as Haunting Curse and Bound Armaments.
In my opinion, in an ideal world ZOS would just bring the underperforming skill lines with weak skills and/or passives up to par. Doing so would buff pure classes and it'd make more subclass combinations viable, because there's like a 40K DPS gap between (for example) a Herald of the Tome + Assassination + Grave Lord setup and a Winter's Embrace + Storm Calling + Ardent Flame setup.0 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
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It wouldn't be punishing anyone. Subclassing is allowing for more powerful builds while lowering the power of pure classes. By leaving the pure skill lines alone and reducing the effectiveness of the subclassed skill lines, you'd get to maintain the same power level across both Pure and Subclass builds.randconfig wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »Or subclassed skill effectiveness should only be a fraction of their pure class counterparts.
I have no idea why they didn't just go that route.
Because why would you punish players for wanting to make their own creative/thematic builds? That completely defeats the purpose of the system...
As it is now, pure classes are getting punished while subclasses are reaping superior benefits.
There's one nonsensical requirement that if you swap 2 skill lines, they can't both come from the same class. But that's flawed, because suppose a NB wanted to take 2 DK skill lines, the system wouldn't allow it due to the rule that you can't take 2 from the same class. Nevermind the fact that that NB need only roll up a DK and take 1 NB skill line and get the result they were looking for to begin with.katanagirl1 wrote: »I have only been reading here and didn’t watch the reveal or whatever they called it, but are there are rules other than you have to keep one skill line? It’s just mind-boggling.Edited by DenverRalphy on April 30, 2025 11:37PM1 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭Champion point is probably a better option than a mythic.
I don't think you're going to be able to balance it otherwise, even if the trees became more pure "dps tree", "tank tree", and "healing tree" as there are too many objects in the game that can mitigate not having a tank or healing tree equipped. (scribing, assault skills, guild skills, oakensoul)Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....0 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »
It wouldn't be punishing anyone. Subclassing is allowing for more powerful builds while lowering the power of pure classes. By leaving the pure skill lines alone and reducing the effectiveness of the subclassed skill lines, you'd get to maintain the same power level across both Pure and Subclass builds.randconfig wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »Or subclassed skill effectiveness should only be a fraction of their pure class counterparts.
I have no idea why they didn't just go that route.
Because why would you punish players for wanting to make their own creative/thematic builds? That completely defeats the purpose of the system...
As it is now, pure classes are getting punished while subclasses are reaping superior benefits.
There's one nonsensical requirement that if you swap 2 skill lines, they can't both come from the same class. But that's flawed, because suppose a NB wanted to take 2 DK skill lines, the system wouldn't allow it due to the rule that you can't take 2 from the same class. Nevermind the fact that that NB need only roll up a DK and take 1 NB skill line and get the result they were looking for to begin with.katanagirl1 wrote: »I have only been reading here and didn’t watch the reveal or whatever they called it, but are there are rules other than you have to keep one skill line? It’s just mind-boggling.
I Imagine this is to appease the players that have rolled characters in all classes so that there is still some worth in having one of every class maxed out.
Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....0 -
Tariq9898✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »The problem with this idea is that in order for a new mythic to boost my pure class character back up, I'd then lose the benefits of the mythic I'm currently wearing. Making the whole thing a wash. And if it boosted the proposed mythic to compensate for sacrificing your current mythic, then every pure class toon would be a slave to that one specific mythic item.
I wouldn't be happy with that.
Could not have said it better. I don’t want to have to swap out Ring of the Pale Order just to have my pure class be competitive with this “new mythic” when soloing world bosses, doing vet arenas, doing veteran overland when it comes out, and even soloing dungeons.
This doesn’t just apply to ROPO. But any mythic.
The best way would probably be to “nerf” subclassing. They could do this by decreasing the effectiveness of skill passives when combined with other skill lines.
Or alternatively, they could buff the effectiveness of abilities and passives only when you’re on a pure class.
Either way, I don’t want to have to rely on one mythic to solve this.
Edited by Tariq9898 on May 1, 2025 2:01AM0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »I still think Separating the abilities is the best solution.
If a skilltree is overperforming in subclass, then all nerfs done to it only apply to the subclassed version.
This way they can swing the hammer as much they want to nerf and change skills to work however they want, while leaving pure classes competetive.
Even easier still.. Just don't nerf the skills at all, and give a blanket 25% reduction to the effectiveness of any slotted subclassed skill. (note that I just picked 25% at random, it could be any appropriate value)
That, and I would even go further. You would only be able to swap out a similar skill line. You couldn’t have three dps skill lines and would have to have a healer and tank skill line equivalent like newer pure classes have. No restrictions on those is insanely overpowered compared to pure classes. It’s like no thought was given to any consequences of this change and it’s a free for all. I have only been reading here and didn’t watch the reveal or whatever they called it, but are there are rules other than you have to keep one skill line? It’s just mind-boggling.
The thing is, not every class has such clearly defined skill lines. What's the Sorcerer's tanking line, for example? I suppose it'd be Daedric Summoning, seeing as that skill line contains Ward and Bound Aegis. But the skill line also contains the pets, which make up a large part of a regular Sorcerer's damage, as well as staple non-pet Sorc skills such as Haunting Curse and Bound Armaments.
In my opinion, in an ideal world ZOS would just bring the underperforming skill lines with weak skills and/or passives up to par. Doing so would buff pure classes and it'd make more subclass combinations viable, because there's like a 40K DPS gap between (for example) a Herald of the Tome + Assassination + Grave Lord setup and a Winter's Embrace + Storm Calling + Ardent Flame setup.
Yeah, I know the older classes are like that. It would work for the new classes cleanly but some other changes would need to be made for the older ones. You get the idea, though. Something needs to be done to at least attempt to balance this new system, but I suspect either the outcome was blissfully ignored or they just decided to throw in the towel completely with regard to balancing with this approach.
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old_scopie1945✭✭✭✭✭The solutions from Heronisan, DenverRalphy and katanagirl1 are, IMO, sound in there own way. Forcing Pure Class fans to actively be inconvenienced to find a solution is unfair. This for something that they didn't want or ask for. It is up to ZOS to sort it without putting the onus on the player.Edited by old_scopie1945 on May 1, 2025 10:25AM2 -
Xarc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭several problems:
- the existence of this kind of mythic therefore admits an imbalance between subclassing and "pure classes".
In this case, it is better to rectify the problem at its root instead of creating a "band-aid"
- mythic=own Greymoor, and therefore it is paid. Pay to be balanced, no thanks@xarcs FR-EU-PC -Please visit my house ingame !
sorry for my english, it's not my native language, I'm french
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sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭several problems:
- the existence of this kind of mythic therefore admits an imbalance between subclassing and "pure classes".
In this case, it is better to rectify the problem at its root instead of creating a "band-aid"
- mythic=own Greymoor, and therefore it is paid. Pay to be balanced, no thanks
Well said. I am in total agreement.0
