Aggrovious wrote: »

@QB1 There are a couple of factors in play here that I can argue make two bars needed for the game to function.

MMO genre- adds variety of skills and having as many as possible is superb. Having less abilities can hurt.
Sustain/DOTS- standards of PVE and PVP. They use the second bar for more heals or for more damage to apply to a target dummy in trial.
Cloudrest Overload Mechanic - Segregates oakensoul players from doing this trial on veteran difficulty.

At the same time...I can also bring up several points on why one bars are better.

Bar swapping can prove to be useless if you can't swap because the whole server in Cyrodiil's latest ball groups of your 9-5 crowd is on. Its very delayed and well, if your streak is on the opposite bar but you couldn't swap, then you die from the horde.

Playing on an oakensoul (or one bar) build and switching back to a two bar feels clunky. The transition doesn't feel smooth at all.

We can look at games such as Smite OR RPG's such as Shadow of War. What is great about the one bar set ups here is the combat is smooth. Your ult is R or 5 and you don't bar swap. RPG games tend to feel great because you created the build/apply abilities and the character uses X Y R2 etc. ESO has you using 12345 BS 12345. There have been plenty times were its not as receptive as it should be and the delays can throw off timing or cost your life.

One bars can provide less jank and perhaps more resources for better optimization.

This is one of the most balanced takes I’ve seen so far. The Cloudrest trial is a good example of having bar-specific requirements but that is something that could be reworked.

The lag example in Cyrodiil is one that hits home for me. I mainly moved to playing one bar builds to get away from the repetitive buff management on every build, but as a PvP main, it felt terrible not to be able to barswap when you needed to.

I also like your comparisons to those other games. I've been playing a lot of Marvel Rivals lately, and while I know it's not an MMO, even having just 3 skills and an ultimate can be extremely fun and it's very smooth. Every character feels incredibly unique and fun to play.

While I personally would like to see a one bar overhaul (maybe they could give us 7 skills instead of 5), I think just having a one-bar option in the settings instead of having to dedicate a mythic to it would be great too. Give us all the buffs from Oakensoul as an option in the game settings and then we can use a different mythic of our choice on our one bar builds. But as things stand right now, one bar is way behind two in both PvE and PvP.

And again, the point of these ideas is not to force everyone into one-bar. It’s to build toward smoother, more accessible combat for everyone. And maybe open the door for better optimization across the board, like you said.

Appreciate your comment.

Aggrovious wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

itsfatbass wrote: »

Id say this would make the game MORE boring, not less. One bar builds are so bland and unenjoyable to me and you're sacrificing a significant amount of power by doing so. Clearly ZoS doesn't care about power creep with the release of subclassing. I strongly disagree and in my experience, the players who only play with one bar builds lack in the skills necessary to really make it far in ESO.

Again that's the point, I feel builds should be sacrificing some power. I don't like that all builds can do everything, but that's my perspective. Evidently you and others enjoy that.

And yet we have another person who thinks all one bar players are those who only play one button heavy attack builds. I and many others have been playing since release. So we've played more than not with two bar setups in the past. Moved to one bar simply because buff management and just buff skill selection in general is boring, repetitive, and leads to all builds feeling the same. Not because of a perceived lack of skill

There is already sacrifice in nerfs and incoming sub-classes. If one bar was to become the only way, it has to be implemented well. Hybridization has started a downward trend.

completely agree

Trejgon wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

No, that would be horrible for me. Combat already often feels dangerously repetitive on a 2-bar build, while 1-bar is just beyond boring. If anything, I need more slots.

other mmo(gw2?) really have some class in combat cant swap bar, but they class skill is other 6+bar skill...

Soarora wrote: »

Darkness734 wrote: »

Additionally instead of completely getting rid of bar swapping. Simply exclude it from being done in combat so you can switch your main weapon and skills used between fights.

That is Guild Wars 2. Not sure if ESO can do that since GW2 already does. But with only one bar there’s still so much you can do with it in that game like how your class skills are essentially not on your bar, only weapon skills. And a lot of the weapon skills can be pressed more than once for different effects. I play Elementalist and it’s a lot of quickly pressing buttons even with one bar. ESO doesn’t have any of that. GW2 also does not have required skills like ESO does— tanks don’t even need to slot a taunt because I think aggro is based on amount of armor.

Just dropping in here with correction: Guild Wars 2, does have weapon swaps on all but two classes, (and one espec for third class) and the classes/specialisations that are forbidden from in-combat weapon swapping, have alternative mechanic that serves similar purpose.

In Guild Wars 2, your skill bar has 10 slots, with first 5 being dictated by wielded weapon (also known as weapon skills), 6th slot being restricted to self heal skills, 3 slots being utility skills for player to pick, and one elite skill. Swapping weapon swaps weapon skills.
Elementalist is one of the two classes without in combat weapon swap (originally they launched without weapon swap at all, but out of combat option was added for qol), but it's class mechanic is elemental attunement - elementalist can attune to one of 4 elements (and switch attunement on the fly in combat), and active attunement dictates weapon skills ontop of which weapon is chosen. So effectively, elementalist comes with 4 weapon swaps.

As for tanking in GW2 - it only exists in some raid/strike encounters, and the ruleset how it is determined depends on encounter - mechanic is called fixiation, and in some encouters boss fixates on the person with highest toughtness attribute, in some other cases it picks the target based on different ruleset (for example it fixiates in time intervals on the closest player at the time of switch) Outside of that, for dungeons or fractals (special kindof dungeon system) tank as a role does not exist at all.

As for the premise of removing weapon swapping completely from ESO - I disagree with it being a good idea. One-bar builds already exists (not only with oakensoul, Hyperioxes is recently promoting non-oakensoul one-bar builds, where the backbar is filled with "when slotted on either bar get X" skills, which seems to be parsing higher than oakensoul builds, and with subclassing will get even stronger.
If you dislike the concept of weapon swapping, you can already play efficiently without utilizing this mechanic. Please do not try to take away from those of us who actually enjoys the weapon swaps.

One bar builds exist but are way behind two bar builds in PvE and PvP. Hyperioxes has some great one bar HEAVY ATTACK builds for PvE. But there are still issues even with those that I’ve addressed in previous comments here already:

For starters, Hyperioxes build just crams as many buffs as possible, including the ones with effects “while slotted on either bar” so you can put those on your back bar and ignore them and still get the effects. Not saying that in and of itself is a bad thing, I think his most recent build on the PTS is the most by far I’ve ever seen a heavy attack or “one bar” (technically uses two bars) parse. So he absolutely knows what he’s talking about and makes extremely effective builds.

That said, if you’ve read any of the comments on this post the majority are about getting away from players having skill bars full of buffs. So not going to reiterate all of that. And I’ve mentioned several times on this thread that I’m a PvP main and that I don’t play heavy attack builds. So you sharing the most recent heavy attack PvE build isn’t exactly helpful.

Do you think that just because heavy attack PvE builds exist that we should just shut up and be happy?

Not all Oakensoul players want a one-button build. And not all one bar players play heavy attack builds. I play normal one bar builds that light/medium/bash weave, block cast, dodge cast, etc and otherwise play at the same level as two bar builds.

In the end, this post isn’t trying to "take away" anything from anyone. It’s supposed to be exploring the idea of why one bar could be better for the game. You don’t have to agree, that’s okay, but no need to take it as a personal attack.

Im at least glad they finally gave us the option to be somewhat relevant with Oakensoul but I think it needs reverted back to its original state to make it competitive again. Or give us an in game setting to pick between one bar and two bar, and one bar players get all of those buffs naturally instead of having to dedicate a mythic to it.

This sounds like an idea ran through ChatGBT.
No thanks, I like being able to use several abilities. In fact I wish we could slot more abilities.

Leave one bar builds for people who want one bar, and leave two bar builds for people who want two bars.

Trejgon wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

No, that would be horrible for me. Combat already often feels dangerously repetitive on a 2-bar build, while 1-bar is just beyond boring. If anything, I need more slots.

other mmo(gw2?) really have some class in combat cant swap bar, but they class skill is other 6+bar skill...

Soarora wrote: »

Darkness734 wrote: »

Additionally instead of completely getting rid of bar swapping. Simply exclude it from being done in combat so you can switch your main weapon and skills used between fights.

That is Guild Wars 2. Not sure if ESO can do that since GW2 already does. But with only one bar there’s still so much you can do with it in that game like how your class skills are essentially not on your bar, only weapon skills. And a lot of the weapon skills can be pressed more than once for different effects. I play Elementalist and it’s a lot of quickly pressing buttons even with one bar. ESO doesn’t have any of that. GW2 also does not have required skills like ESO does— tanks don’t even need to slot a taunt because I think aggro is based on amount of armor.

Just dropping in here with correction: Guild Wars 2, does have weapon swaps on all but two classes, (and one espec for third class) and the classes/specialisations that are forbidden from in-combat weapon swapping, have alternative mechanic that serves similar purpose.

In Guild Wars 2, your skill bar has 10 slots, with first 5 being dictated by wielded weapon (also known as weapon skills), 6th slot being restricted to self heal skills, 3 slots being utility skills for player to pick, and one elite skill. Swapping weapon swaps weapon skills.
Elementalist is one of the two classes without in combat weapon swap (originally they launched without weapon swap at all, but out of combat option was added for qol), but it's class mechanic is elemental attunement - elementalist can attune to one of 4 elements (and switch attunement on the fly in combat), and active attunement dictates weapon skills ontop of which weapon is chosen. So effectively, elementalist comes with 4 weapon swaps.

As for tanking in GW2 - it only exists in some raid/strike encounters, and the ruleset how it is determined depends on encounter - mechanic is called fixiation, and in some encouters boss fixates on the person with highest toughtness attribute, in some other cases it picks the target based on different ruleset (for example it fixiates in time intervals on the closest player at the time of switch) Outside of that, for dungeons or fractals (special kindof dungeon system) tank as a role does not exist at all.

As for the premise of removing weapon swapping completely from ESO - I disagree with it being a good idea. One-bar builds already exists (not only with oakensoul, Hyperioxes is recently promoting non-oakensoul one-bar builds, where the backbar is filled with "when slotted on either bar get X" skills, which seems to be parsing higher than oakensoul builds, and with subclassing will get even stronger.
If you dislike the concept of weapon swapping, you can already play efficiently without utilizing this mechanic. Please do not try to take away from those of us who actually enjoys the weapon swaps.

Ouhhh, all the classes I've tried didn't let me swap in-combat (to be fair I've only really tried two classes-- the other being ranger). Thanks for the information!

Boring

i dont think they would ever do this but it would change the gameplay...likely for the better..

to balance it you would need:

1) 6th utility slot that takes the place of the weapon swap button

2) one or two passive slots:
one or two permanent passive abilities that you cant click. You can just put any skill in here and benefit from thee "slotted" passive effect.

3) Slot-able heavy and light attacks:
You would also need to be able to slot things in the light and heavy attack buttons. Extended functionality would be added so new more powerful light and heavy attacks could be slotted and both these would be moved over to the gcd. This opens the door for strategic weaving. Each skill has its own condition on use such as while stunned, while off balance, while under x effect, you or the enemy and rather than just mindless busywork these attacks can exploit the enemy strategically. You can set it up for your own playstyle.

4) The chamber slot:
This is a successive slot that you get that can hold up to 3 skills in it. As you use a skill it chambers the next one like a revolver does. At first you get one extra chamber so you can put in two skills witch revolve on use and later you get a third one. Players can decide what skills go there with the limitation that you can only use one at a time and have to cycle all them to use them.

5) Overcharge slot
This slot charges up so gets more powerful the longer you dont use it ( and meet it conditions) and can be set up different of ways. Not all skills can be overcharged.
1) Absorb magic damage to charge 2.75x
2) Absorb melee damage to charge 2.75x
3) Absorb any damage to charge 2.25x
4) Do damage to charge 1.5x
5) absorb status effects damage to charge 3.25X
6) absorb block damage to charge 3.25x
7) shunt ultimate to charge 2x
8) Overhealing to charge 2x

this would simplify some of the controls and make rotations much smaller but also easier so players can focus more on the game than frantically pressing buttons and can all be done without having to switch weapons all the time which, like weaving, looks horrible in gameplay. It also increases the strategy of when to use certain buttons more than just a mindless rotation of dots and buffs to keep up.

it would certainly change the gameplay from not so good buff/dot management frenzy to a more strategic setup. Weapon swap would still exist but as a much slower function on the potion wheel. So you could have two setups running as a qol feature and can switch in combat but not useful for stacking 30 dots and buffs. .

Alot of people dont like eso combat system because its finger punishing busywork to keep buffs up and dots down while you spam/weave light attacks and whatever spammable or skill constantly barswapping to keep all that in motion. Its a bit better nowadays with more options to play single bar than it used to be.

Theres just so much going on that none of it really has impact. its just skillspam. I know many have adapted to it and love it, but its also a primary reason most quit eso after about 6 weeks imo. Once it becomes apparent how to play going forward i think most just move on to simpler games with more strategic skills that require less button frenzy. I would imagine this is about the same time people start using the groupfinder and doing dungeons which is like pouring gas on a fire. So imo the combat system is definitely bad for player retention and also really bad for pvp performance.

which is too bad because eso has some of the greatest systems in any mmo but its tarnished by the combat system. Likely why its always been an underachiever..

it could use an overhaul really but there would be severe blowback i would imagine.

While I understand where this sentiment comes from, and I do sympathize, I think the game is simple enough already. One bar builds work beautifully for those with accessibility issues, but they take away far too much from the rest of those who engage in group play. The entire game would need to be revamped, including all content beyond just overland questing, all sets, and all skills to account for the massive loss of utility in actual content. No one has to use both bars (except in vCR- iykyk), and you always have the personal option to just not equip a secondary weapon.

Eso is by far the easiest and most casual MMO on the market, there is already virtually no real mechanical skill needed to play the game. In my opinion the game should just do a better job of teaching people how the game is actually played instead of people having to use 3rd party guides and tools to even understand what’s happening.

Most of the balance issues this game suffers and the reason a lot of things are so controversial is bcs there is a MASSIVE knowledge gap between the veteran players and everyone else. This is mainly bcs the game itself doesn’t teach you anything so a new player has virtually no chance at figuring out anything on their own.

If no one understands why something is an issue but they only know that it is an issue, that leads to situations where massive blanket changes happen. Which is very common around here unfortunately

QB1 wrote: »

TheImperfect wrote: »

Definitely not for me. I haven't even tried Oakensoul yet as it just doesn't appeal to me. I think bar swapping makes the game more unique and fun to play and adds a level of challenge.

That’s valid. If bar swapping adds fun and challenge for you, I respect that. It looks like a lot of people agree with you! But I know there are a lot of us that feel one-bar builds are more refined and less about cramming as many skills as possible on your bar.

With the current system, players can literally do everything. In PvE, you have healers healing, buffing, and dpsing. You have dps dpsing, buffing, and sometimes healing. You have tanks taunting, buffing, and healing too. In PvP, you’ve got immortal god builds able to deal huge damage, self-heal, shield, buff, and sustain it all for long periods.

Again, it's cool if you guys like things how they are. But I think it’s worth having a conversation about whether the current two-bar system is actually helping or hurting the game. Consolidating to one bar could help define roles and identity more clearly, create tighter and more meaningful choices, and move away from the do-everything builds. Obviously I know it wouldn't be for everyone, but I think it’s a direction worth exploring. That's all

Hey I'd even have a go with 3 bars, maybe it could be an option.