PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

xencthlu · April 21

Arthtur wrote: »

So... in which world 60% nerf to a sustain passive seems fine? Because thats insane. All those sustain nerfs make DK dead for solo content. You just arent sustaining those expensive skills. Small damage buff wont make it up at all.

Like currently you get on average 250 stamina and magicka per second from combustion. After nerfs it drops to around 100....
If u removed CD on that, it would be fine. But with the CD? Thats a good joke.
Battle Roar drops from 50 per ultimate to 37. Thats 25% nerf. Where all the problems with this passives come from... Pillager. Which basically doubles your ultimate regen in trials. And minor heroism potions that are rly expensive... In solo play you have nothing that makes this passive broken.
Change to flat cost reduction jewelry enchants? A nail in the coffin. Even if it makes sense, that was one of things that made sustain on DK okay.

On live i have good sustain. Just good. I run out of magicka in prolonged combat but its fine. But if those changes go live?
Unplayable. Literally. Even wearing 5p sustain set wont make up for all those nerfs. And im not kidding. Wretched Vitality isnt strong enough to make up for those nerfs.

But everyone will say "its fine". You know why?
Because Undaunted Command passive outperforms Combustion in trials if there is enough synergies.
Because Pillager and Minor Heroisom potions make Battle Roar go crazy.
Because Minor Magickasteal and all sustain buffs from healers are all they need.

You could literally remove all class sustain passives and trial groups would still be fine sustain wise.
Why in the world are you nuking solo players for ungodly power creep in group play?
Want worse sustain in trials? Nuke Undaunted Command. Nuke Sustain Synergies. Implement some mechs that make sustain worse. Maybe then healers will go back to wearing sustain sets. But class sustain passives? You can remove them and trial groups would still be fine. At worst they would need to run regen food...

Like... DK has the most expensive semispammable in tha game while at the same time having the worst sustain in the game. Where is the logic...

Honestly? Im just tired. And please, just dont bother saying "Just change skill lines to get better sustain" because that just not nice.

I just tanked my first veteran fang lair on my dragon knight. When these changes go live, I'm never going to be able to do that again on that character. While I am excited about multiclassing, I'm not going that route on my DK. It was obvious while we were fighting Thurvokun that our success and failure hugely hinged on my ability to manage my stamina and magicka. I think Art here is understating the problem - I'm not going to be using my DK in 4 man content when these changes go live. (Not that I'll be any happier about running her in solo content, either.)

Please reconsider. I'm really struggling to understand how DK sustain as it is would threaten general balance once multiclass goes live.

sans-culottes · April 21

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Can Blighted Blastbones receive this treatment please?

Blighted Blastbones can be:
-CCed after spawning and if the CC is long enough, be completely disabled until the skill becomes available to use again(the game won't allow you to recast the skill if the Skeleton is still ''active'', even if it is stuck in a CC which it can't break), thus ''wasting the skill cast''
-Affected by Silence Ground AoEs(and end up completely disabled until the AoE ends or BB timer runs out), even though it is a ''Stamina Skill'' and even if casted outside the AoE effect. I assume this happens because the Skeleton is treated as an NPC and is Stunned instead of Silenced(BB can't use break free)
-Unable to reach the target under certain conditions like for example if the target teleports to an unreachable location(Sarydil in Coral Aerie), or the target ''phases out''(Darkshard in Bedlam Veil). The main issue with this is that unlike most skills that would simply ''fail'' in this scenario, the Skeleton will just stay there doing nothing until the duration of the skill runs out and most of the time won't attempt to pick a new target.

Changing this skill into a ''visual effect that completes the attack'' similar to something like Scorch from Wardens would imo greatly improve the skill and make its usage in combat scenarios smoother and more reliable. There is no scenario in where this particular skill being a ''summoned entity with AI'' ends up being better than a ''visual effect that completes the attack'' gameplay wise.

I don't like this suggestion; blastbones is a pet and is useful in PvP as a way to intercept enemy attacks, your suggested change would make it not a pet and not block any attacks in PvP.

Calling this a “pet” has always been a bit of a stretch of the term. It lasts for a few seconds. Why even bother?

Because it benefits from pet sets like Unleashed Ritualist and Hunt Leader.

@randconfig, I should clarify that I meant mechanically. You’re absolutely right that the game treats these summons as pets, especially in terms of set interactions like Unleashed Ritualist and Hunt Leader. My point is more about how awkward and unreliable the implementation of Necromancer minions has always felt. “Pet” is accurate by system logic, but it’s a stretch when the thing barely lasts a few seconds and often fails to execute as intended.

ZhuJiuyin · April 21

Daedric Summoning Rework

In TES, permanent summons are often considered the ultimate skill, but in ESO it is the opposite, taking up a lot of Sorc's skill slots and making the pet system less interesting.
If ZOS really wants to make Subclassing work for Sorc (either pet or non-pet), it needs to work harder.

Here are my suggestions for Daedric Summoning (if the developers really insist that Daedric Summoning must be the only primary identity for a Sorc, and not Dark Magic or Stormcaster):
Summon Familiar: Summons a Familiar that lasts for 30 seconds. The Familiar attacks every two seconds and has a higher chance of causing Concussed.
Summon Clannfear: Summons a Clannfear that lasts for 30 seconds. The Clannfear attacks every 2 seconds and deals up to 200% damage to enemies below 50% health.

Daedric Prey: Deals damage to the target and surrounding enemies every 5 seconds for 15 seconds. Cursed enemies take 20% increased damage from your pet.
Haunting Curse (changed to Guardian Spell, and moved the original Haunting Curse to Dark Magic): After casting, you and your pet gain Major Vitality, and heal you and your pet every two seconds for 10 seconds.

Twilight Tormentor: Summons a Twilight Tormentor that lasts 30 seconds. It attacks every 2 seconds and each attack bounces to up to 3 nearby targets. The damage is reduced by 10% each time it bounces. This attack has a higher chance to cause Concussed.
Twilight Matriarch: Summons a Twilight Matriarch that lasts 30 seconds, attacks every 2 seconds, and heals you and the ally with the lowest health for 20% of the damage dealt by the attack.

Conjured Ward (with Morphs): Moved to Dark Magic, and moved Daedric Mines in. Also, apply Daedric Refuge's damage shield to all your pets.

Bound Armaments: Summons a weapon that requires charging and lasts for 10 seconds. Each time you perform a light or heavy attack, the weapon will recharge. When the time is up, you can activate the skill again to deal damage equal to the sum of the damage of the light and heavy attacks during the charging period.
Bound Aegis: Honestly, I think this is the least controversial skill at the moment.

Ultimate:
Summon Storm Atronach Senche (this model already exists in the game): Summons a permanent Storm Atronach Senche (need 2bar). The Storm Atronach Senche attacks once every two seconds, causing damage to the target and all enemies within 7 feet. When cast again, the player and nearby allies can activate synergy to gain a Major Berserk that lasts for 10 seconds. This effect can be triggered up to once every 30 seconds. And there is a higher chance of causing Sundered.
Summon Storm Atronach Guar (this model already exists in the game): Summons a permanent Storm Atronach Guar (need 2bar). The Atronach Guar attacks once every two seconds. When cast again, the player and nearby allies can activate synergy to gain a Major Berserk that lasts for 10 seconds. This effect can be triggered up to once every 20 seconds. Guar's attacks have a higher chance to cause Concussed.

Passive:
Rebate: Increases restored Magicka and Stamina, everything else remains the same.
Power Stone: Increases the chance of your pet's attacks inflicting status effects.
Daedric Protection: While you have a pet, reduces the damage you take by 6%. When your pet is hit by a fatal attack, it will be automatically resummoned. This effect will be activated every 60 seconds.
Expert Summoner: Increases the direct damage you and your Sorc pet deal.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 21

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Can Blighted Blastbones receive this treatment please?

Blighted Blastbones can be:
-CCed after spawning and if the CC is long enough, be completely disabled until the skill becomes available to use again(the game won't allow you to recast the skill if the Skeleton is still ''active'', even if it is stuck in a CC which it can't break), thus ''wasting the skill cast''
-Affected by Silence Ground AoEs(and end up completely disabled until the AoE ends or BB timer runs out), even though it is a ''Stamina Skill'' and even if casted outside the AoE effect. I assume this happens because the Skeleton is treated as an NPC and is Stunned instead of Silenced(BB can't use break free)
-Unable to reach the target under certain conditions like for example if the target teleports to an unreachable location(Sarydil in Coral Aerie), or the target ''phases out''(Darkshard in Bedlam Veil). The main issue with this is that unlike most skills that would simply ''fail'' in this scenario, the Skeleton will just stay there doing nothing until the duration of the skill runs out and most of the time won't attempt to pick a new target.

Changing this skill into a ''visual effect that completes the attack'' similar to something like Scorch from Wardens would imo greatly improve the skill and make its usage in combat scenarios smoother and more reliable. There is no scenario in where this particular skill being a ''summoned entity with AI'' ends up being better than a ''visual effect that completes the attack'' gameplay wise.

I don't like this suggestion; blastbones is a pet and is useful in PvP as a way to intercept enemy attacks, your suggested change would make it not a pet and not block any attacks in PvP.

Calling this a “pet” has always been a bit of a stretch of the term. It lasts for a few seconds. Why even bother?

Because it benefits from pet sets like Unleashed Ritualist and Hunt Leader.

@randconfig, I should clarify that I meant mechanically. You’re absolutely right that the game treats these summons as pets, especially in terms of set interactions like Unleashed Ritualist and Hunt Leader. My point is more about how awkward and unreliable the implementation of Necromancer minions has always felt. “Pet” is accurate by system logic, but it’s a stretch when the thing barely lasts a few seconds and often fails to execute as intended.

I'll be real - Blastbones (from the skill at least) isn't nearly as unreliable or clunky as people say it is these days. It hasn't been egregiously unreliable since they added the 28m leap range to it, at least in most content outside of Zerg V Zergs.

The real answer as to why it's nice that it's a pet is that it soaks up a lot of damage for Necro since it appears directly in front of the necro. Your Blastbones takes a ton of gap closer, incaps, frags, bow procs, etc etc just because it sorta instantly appears right in front of your hitbox.

That being said, I wouldn't lose sleep over not having this damage mitigation. While Blastbones isn't terribly unreliable, there are still times when it gets drunk, gets stunned, immobilized, etc. Not nearly as often as it used to, but often enough to ruin combos from time to time.

xylena_lazarow · April 21

Rushing Agony still not nerfed, still more broken in PvP than anything Subclassing does. Players are gonna be excited about Subclassing in PvP for about a day before they forget it even exists and go back to complaining about Rushing Agony procs automating ball group strats, and how broken the new double spectral bow skill on NB is.

LukosCreyden · April 21

Still waiting for the devs to change Gravelord Sacrifice into something that isn't a hideous abomination. At the very least, they could give it a proper animation.

Dreadwar · April 21

Dragonknight
Elder Dragon Passive: As suggested by another, please make it provide magic/health/stamina regen. Reduce the amount per ability slotted if need be.

katorga · April 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Rushing Agony still not nerfed, still more broken in PvP than anything Subclassing does. Players are gonna be excited about Subclassing in PvP for about a day before they forget it even exists and go back to complaining about Rushing Agony procs automating ball group strats, and how broken the new double spectral bow skill on NB is.

Sub-classing is going to turbo charge Rush of Agony. Classes that were sub optimal for RoA builds can subclass into being optimal or better.

xylena_lazarow · April 21

katorga wrote: »

Sub-classing is going to turbo charge

Can't break what's already broken. Can't kill what's already dead.

Rushing Agony will determine what skills get used, not the other way around.

Maggusemm · April 21

sorcerer seems pretty weak as damage dealer as it seems. No damage, no cleave.

SaintJohnHM · April 21

Maggusemm wrote: »

sorcerer seems pretty weak as damage dealer as it seems. No damage, no cleave.

They really gutted sorc for tanking. They don't seem to understand that a lot of people don't want to have to subclass to have the same relative power they had before.

xylena_lazarow · April 21

So they looked at Grim Focus but didn't change anything about double cast spectral bow in PvP. That's gonna cause problems, can't wait for all the casuals getting double bow two shotted on live to automatically assume it's a hack.

ForumBully · April 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So they looked at Grim Focus but didn't change anything about double cast spectral bow in PvP. That's gonna cause problems, can't wait for all the casuals getting double bow two shotted on live to automatically assume it's a hack.

Yep...I guess this is one of those "let's just see how it goes for a couple of years" changes that they're going to keep an eye on.

Yudo · April 21

TY for including non-pet option again for sorcs https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794/pts-patch-notes-v11-0-1

ZhuJiuyin · April 21

Although it's only the second week, based on past experience I'm not expecting any major balance changes. But I think Expert Summoner is the right first step, and expect the developers to have a basic rework of Sorc done by June.

suggestion(according to v11.0.1):
1. Swap Bound Armaments with Daedric Mines, and change the passive ability of Bound Armaments to While slotted, your Max Stamina&Magic is increased by 5%(or 3% crit damage).
2. Change Lightning Splash to the same level as Spear Shards, increase damage, and allow own synergy.
3. Exchange Power Stone with Persistence to turn all Daedric Summoning abilities except pets into tank abilities.
4. Suppression Field has been reworked, leaving the silencing effect to Absorption Field, and greatly increasing the damage of Suppression Field, and giving Major Brittle to the damaged target, making it competitive with Atronach.
5. Reworked Endless Fury, removed the execution effect, and provided more damage, making it a spam skill for sorc.
6. Reworked Power Surge and changed it to a sticky dot similar to Degeneration.
7. Buff Shattering Spines, so that it gives a 10-second sticky dot and a 4-second delayed burst of direct damage, making it a qualified damage skill.
8. Defensive Rune has been reworked to have an effect similar to Solar Barrage, dealing direct damage every 5 seconds centered on itself, and increasing the damage the target receives from the black magic skill line.
9.Unholy Knowledge should be moved to Persistence and merged with it, and a new passive ability be added to Unholy Knowledge: When you deal damage with a Sorc class skill, increase the damage your target takes by 3/6% for 10 seconds. This effect will be triggered every 10 seconds.

Additionally, We should have more passives like Sorc's Expert Mage: "Increases your Damage by X for each classes ability slotted." instead of just "With a X ability slotted" or unconditional "Increases your Crit against enemies you are flanking by 1487". This would reward pure classes and put some restrictions on subclassing. This prevents unlimited power increase and forces the player to choose a main class from the beginning, since you can't have two of the same subclassing.

For example, change Unholy Knowledge (which moves the original effect to Persistence) to: "Increase your direct damage by X for each Dark Magic (or sorc class) ability slotted"

In this way, even if the developers strengthen the active ability of Dark Magic & Storm Calling, it will not lead to an uncontrollable increase in power compared to other classes, because although Dark Magic & Storm Calling provides more attractive options for players, it requires the use of the abilities of this line or class, which forces players to make adjustments within the limited skill grid.
Think about Pokémon. Although each Pokémon can only use a maximum of 4 skills, even the same Pokémon can make a variety of effective combinations.
By readjusting the passive abilities of all classes according to this rule, we may be able to achieve a certain balance for all subclassing before June.

Howda · April 21

- DKs Battle Roar passive does not interact with Power Overload ultimate from the sorc.
- Luminous shard from the Templar does not drop the synergy to be used by ourselves as intended.
-

Vaqual · April 21

Dreadwar wrote: »

Dragonknight
Elder Dragon Passive: As suggested by another, please make it provide magic/health/stamina regen. Reduce the amount per ability slotted if need be.

I do actually like that it provides an otherwise hard to find stat even though it is often looked down upon. If the health recovery would be lowered to accommodate stam and mag that would be a bit regrettable.
I think the general idea in the past was that resource management has to be the built-in performance limiter for DK, but that has not been the case for several years now due to battle roar and combustion. It is completely ok to compensate for the sustain loss on the gear, especially since raw power was added to ardent flame with the warmth buff.

TaxiDriver2116 · April 21

I’m very nervous what subclassing will mean for the balance of pure classes. In week one, nightblade received some nice buffs for their skill lines, but of course assassination turned out to be too strong when subclassing and using merciless resolve completely passively, so you took it back a notch, but many people still believe assassination passives are too strong for subclassing. If these balance changes become a pattern, I’m worried pure nightblades will end up worse off than before.

One idea is to change merciless resolve to gain stacks from casting nightblade abilities, rather than light attacks. This would limit it as a passive ability.
Another idea is to make the passive weapon damage from merciless resolve apply only to direct damage. Or you could make some of the assassination passives only apply to direct damage. This would limit its use in some of the most powerful subclassing builds without taking much away from pure class nightblades.

Please consider these kinds of changes before plain numerical nerfs.

I know some people may be confused why I’m worried when the changes have been buffs so far, but I think we’ve all seen times where something turns out unintentionally powerful and gets destroyed.

Vaqual · April 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So they looked at Grim Focus but didn't change anything about double cast spectral bow in PvP. That's gonna cause problems, can't wait for all the casuals getting double bow two shotted on live to automatically assume it's a hack.

At least they acted quickly on the passive WD, I am glad that it did not go live with the 60 per stack.

React · April 21

Great adjustment to polar wind. Even stronger for the PVE tanks that need it for self healing, but much less strong as a cross heal in PVP to be abused by high HP impossible-to-kill healers.

xylena_lazarow · April 21

React wrote: »

Great adjustment to polar wind. Even stronger for the PVE tanks that need it for self healing, but much less strong as a cross heal in PVP to be abused by high HP impossible-to-kill healers.

I'm likewise very happy with the Polar change for PvP, thanks devs for listening on this.

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 21

xencthlu wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

So... in which world 60% nerf to a sustain passive seems fine? Because thats insane. All those sustain nerfs make DK dead for solo content. You just arent sustaining those expensive skills. Small damage buff wont make it up at all.

Like currently you get on average 250 stamina and magicka per second from combustion. After nerfs it drops to around 100....
If u removed CD on that, it would be fine. But with the CD? Thats a good joke.
Battle Roar drops from 50 per ultimate to 37. Thats 25% nerf. Where all the problems with this passives come from... Pillager. Which basically doubles your ultimate regen in trials. And minor heroism potions that are rly expensive... In solo play you have nothing that makes this passive broken.
Change to flat cost reduction jewelry enchants? A nail in the coffin. Even if it makes sense, that was one of things that made sustain on DK okay.

On live i have good sustain. Just good. I run out of magicka in prolonged combat but its fine. But if those changes go live?
Unplayable. Literally. Even wearing 5p sustain set wont make up for all those nerfs. And im not kidding. Wretched Vitality isnt strong enough to make up for those nerfs.

But everyone will say "its fine". You know why?
Because Undaunted Command passive outperforms Combustion in trials if there is enough synergies.
Because Pillager and Minor Heroisom potions make Battle Roar go crazy.
Because Minor Magickasteal and all sustain buffs from healers are all they need.

You could literally remove all class sustain passives and trial groups would still be fine sustain wise.
Why in the world are you nuking solo players for ungodly power creep in group play?
Want worse sustain in trials? Nuke Undaunted Command. Nuke Sustain Synergies. Implement some mechs that make sustain worse. Maybe then healers will go back to wearing sustain sets. But class sustain passives? You can remove them and trial groups would still be fine. At worst they would need to run regen food...

Like... DK has the most expensive semispammable in tha game while at the same time having the worst sustain in the game. Where is the logic...

Honestly? Im just tired. And please, just dont bother saying "Just change skill lines to get better sustain" because that just not nice.

I just tanked my first veteran fang lair on my dragon knight. When these changes go live, I'm never going to be able to do that again on that character. While I am excited about multiclassing, I'm not going that route on my DK. It was obvious while we were fighting Thurvokun that our success and failure hugely hinged on my ability to manage my stamina and magicka. I think Art here is understating the problem - I'm not going to be using my DK in 4 man content when these changes go live. (Not that I'll be any happier about running her in solo content, either.)

Please reconsider. I'm really struggling to understand how DK sustain as it is would threaten general balance once multiclass goes live.

I would say that, practically speaking, subclassing will provide tools to fix that. Siphoning skill line from Nightblade gives a really good sustain tool for example.

I wish that DK tanks had some benefit for remaining primarily DKs, but your tank can still work with some adaptation

Trejgon · April 21

I'd like to make a comment on todays patch notes comment:

Based on a lot of the initial feedback we’ve seen, there were some very good cases about how walking this passive back to a pet-build hurt those who don't want to subclass. While we are still going to keep Daedric Summoning focused on what the name implies, we do realize we can still account for the fact not every ability in this skill line is about summoning. In this case, the passive will be slightly less dense than something like Magicka Flood while offering a potential advantage if you lean further into the skill line. This exact solution isn't something we can apply everywhere (largely because this split can lead to a significant amount of performance drain), but it is something that works in this case where we are gaining something both for players and the servers.

Firstly, it is not about using skill line without summoning anything. Bound armor/aegis/armanent still conjure things, just not permanent combat pets. Conjured ward still, is something summoned - just not a pet. Meanwhile the comment seems to imply that pets are only things one can summon within that skill line.

Secondly, the issue with nerf is not just with people whom do not want to subclass (even tho it was sizeable chunk of people unhappy with it) anyone, whom grew any sort of dislike to pet-play of sorc, whom wanted to keep the skill line for the non-pet summoning stuff in it, was also being negatively impacted.

Thirdly, when it comes to server impact - if split mechanic of pet/nopet are this straining on the server, why are you sticking so hard to having pet presence checks in the first place? passive could be just something always active. If encouragment of using pets was aim it could also include something that would be mechanically always present but would buff up the pets.

And lastly which would be reiteration of my last weeks feedback - if daedric summoning is supposed to be a pet skill line (in the less imaginative take that summoning == pets) How about actually make active skills reflect that and make it proper daedric pet skill line, in line with how animan companion skill line is? I think alot of people would appreciate if variety of daedric pets you see around is more than just scamp/twilight, with very ocasional clanfear.

katorga · April 21

Vaqual wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So they looked at Grim Focus but didn't change anything about double cast spectral bow in PvP. That's gonna cause problems, can't wait for all the casuals getting double bow two shotted on live to automatically assume it's a hack.

At least they acted quickly on the passive WD, I am glad that it did not go live with the 60 per stack.

40 per stack is still huge, and the skill is way too overloaded. With as much damage as it does especially if you can double shot it, it should not have ANY secondary effects. Assassination still nets me 400dmg, a little mag regen, 15.5% crit rate and 10% un-named crit damage buff and 10 ult every kill assuming I decide to back bar Soul Harvest on top of some enormous, ranged burst.

To be honest it makes zero sense why they nerfed bound armaments at all, especially when they wrecked Daedric Summoning out of fear people might subclass with necro/warden pets. And that made no sense either, Blastbones used to do up 50% more damage based on distance, back before the turned it into a self buff....Deadric Prey would have made BB useful again. The necro archer pet has always been totally useless.

Dino-Jr · April 21

Looks like adjustments were made to the Sorcs Passives already?

Wow, all I can say is thank you Zos. The latest developer comments about performance considerations make a tone of sense. That was about as immediate of a reaction to feedback as I have ever seen from a forum like this. Genuinely impressed and grateful.

SaintJohnHM · April 21

Dino-Jr wrote: »

Looks like adjustments were made to the Sorcs Passives already?

Wow, all I can say is thank you Zos. The latest developer comments about performance considerations make a tone of sense. That was about as immediate of a reaction to feedback as I have ever seen from a forum like this. Genuinely impressed and grateful.

Not really. It's a super minor adjustment and is still a nerf from where it was before subclassing ruined it.

The need to have a big rethink on the sorc skills to keep it fun.

sans-culottes · April 21

Dino-Jr wrote: »

Looks like adjustments were made to the Sorcs Passives already?

Wow, all I can say is thank you Zos. The latest developer comments about performance considerations make a tone of sense. That was about as immediate of a reaction to feedback as I have ever seen from a forum like this. Genuinely impressed and grateful.

It’s too bad that despite years of feedback from Necromancer players, the Necromancer class never got that same level of attention.

moo_2021 · April 21

React wrote: »

Great adjustment to polar wind. Even stronger for the PVE tanks that need it for self healing, but much less strong as a cross heal in PVP to be abused by high HP impossible-to-kill healers.

except self healers. I'll slot polar wind on all my characters. It will be awesome with Goliath

Hymzir · April 21

Right... So year 11 of beta continues...

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The game is class-based. Embrace it, double down on it. Make class identity more meaningful. This sub-classing thing is going to homogenize everything even more and is gonna be a total 'swear word show' and make the game even more toxic. Both in PVP and end-game META circles. Class change tokens would've been so much better solution. Wouldn't require changing all the skill lines and cause even more balance issues. Besides, we already have the whole scribing system to add unique touches to your build.

So for once, please listen to us and rethink this thing through. I know you won't, but remember... We're the ones who get to tell you: "We told you so."

As for specifics, while I play every class (except Arc, no char slots for that. Maybe if slots go on sale, I'll finally roll up one.) I mainly play Templar and Sorc, with some low-stress Nightblade thievery in PVE for LOLs, so my comments will only cover those, and I don't really have much to say about Nightblades. Except that double spectral from sneak in PVP sounds like a horrible idea.

Templar changes look all right for the most part. Some truly welcome buffs there, and the jabs rework sounds fine. It won't fundamentally change how I play my Temps. The only issue is Jesus beam. We've done this rodeo before. Making it dodge-able nixes any reason to use it in PVP. It is already pretty weak in the heal happy ultra tanky PVP environment and can be readily blocked. It is not a death sentence in any way or form. Honestly, with these changes and the subclass nonsense, I think I'll just ditch the whole skill line and replace it with something actually useful for PVP.

On the other hand, on PVE it changes nothing. The extra damage is nice, and glory healing more is useful, and there wasn't much point in starting exec until around 35% health anyway. The damage ramped up pretty slowly until that point. My experience has been that it is better to keep doing regular dam rot until the target is at 35% health before switching to beam spamming.

The longer duration means less clicking at that point since, after switching to ray-gun mode, you have zero reason to do anything else. You can currently weave light attacks between casts, but compared to the exec damage, that is not a huge deal. As an added bonus, with a tick-based cost instead of upfront, if you need to stop the channel to block or something, you won't lose the whole cost of the cast.

So for PVE the change is kinda whatever, but for PVP, the skill is now meaningless. If you want to continue to beam spam, just sub to arcanist and use its beam equivalent. It's pretty broken as a skill anyway. And the passives and other skills in the tree sound, at least on paper, a lot better than anything Dawn's Wrath has to offer, so subbing into that might be the META move anyway. But since I have 0 XP as playing as an arcanist, don't quote me on that. But it is something I def will test at some point and see how it swings.

As for sorcs... I know sorcs are PITA to deal with in PVP and need a bit of a smackdown, but this is not the way to do it. And forcing non pet sorcs to subclass out of a core identity skill tree is... Well, there is no nice way to describe that idea. It's that bad.

To top it off, the class is a mess even without the changes. It still relies heavily on non-class skills (except for zoo builds) to make it work, and now you have to sub out just to be borderline viable? Not a good move.

These changes are absolute trash. I'd use stronger words to describe my feelings about the issue if the forums allowed them. But please, for the love of all that is good and beautiful in the world, let non-pet sorcs be a viable thing. As sorcs, not as some weird frankensteined mess of looted bits from other classes.

If this goes live, I'll just switch back to the no-brains lazy-sorc oakensoul zoo build until you guys get the next glorious idea that completely changes everything about the game. The sorta thing that seems to happen every other year or so.

Seriously, though, you need to get past this whole 'pets are necessary for sorcs' fixation you have over there. Loads of people want to play non-pet sorcs.

Varana · April 21

Patch Notes 11.0.1 wrote:

This exact solution isn't something we can apply everywhere (largely because this split can lead to a significant amount of performance drain)

May I suggest a solution that is both simple and includes all play styles that might want to use this skill line?

Just don't do it.

Scrap that whole idea of "when you have a pet active" and rework the passives so they are useful whether you want to use a pet or not. And I mean useful - the current rebalance of Expert Summoner is the blandest weaksauce, and doesn't help anyone.
Because, as you yourself noted in the Developer Notes, Daedric Summoning is not just about pets.
If you want to restrict it to a pet skill line, then make sure that all abilities there are purely pet-based (and that means no Daedric Prey either).
If that skill line includes non-pet abilities, then it must be possible to take the skill line for those abilities and still profit from it in the same meaningful way.

And I can't stress this enough:
Your balancing target with Daedric Summoning is: it should be as strong as taking Herald of the Tome, Assassination, or Gravelord, or any of the other lines-du-jour.
You want to make it so I can take the skill line and synergise with others to buff them all. That means its passives need to be applicable outside of the skill line itself, even with no skill slotted - or they need to be strong enough to be worth sacrificing two slots.

I can't help myself but doubt whether you really realised what mess this multiclassing is going to be.