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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Battlegrounds: Cycle of Self-Destruction
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Moonspawn✭✭✭✭@Jierdanit
You accused me of wanting 3-sided BGs back so I can ''hide from combat''. You are right in recognizing that the old format was better for that. Do you know who else would recognize it instantly? The newcomers who are queueing into BGs right now in pursuit of those sweet rewards.
You also accused me of being after the ''second place reward''. Right again in recognizing that the new rewards would be easier to come by in 3-sided.
But then you devoted your entire next post to saying that the old format was awful and no one would choose it. Can you explain these contradictions?
Edited by Moonspawn on April 16, 2025 8:41PM2 -
Haki_7✭✭✭Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 72: Waiting 21 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Fuhu8rpVM 0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fun Battlegrounds Chapter 13, featuring a Special Guest: Waiting 2 minutes~ for a fun match! (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://youtu.be/3v7oocld3S4 1 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭You accused me of wanting 3-sided BGs back so I can ''hide from combat''. You are right in recognizing that the old format was better for that. Do you know who else would recognize it instantly? The newcomers who are queueing into BGs right now in pursuit of those sweet rewards.
Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers, because they didn't need to fight and could sneak their way to a win in any mode but Deathmatch (where they could still hide and just try to steal kills from the teams actually fighting).
I have no idea why people would think that is a good thing though.
In a format like that it's barely even PvP.
If you queue for PvP you should be able and willing to actually fight other players.
Also in my opinion the people who just queue in to get their daily rewards once and don't actually want to PvP don't make BGs better at all.You also accused me of being after the ''second place reward''. Right again in recognizing that the new rewards would be easier to come by in 3-sided.
But then you devoted your entire next post to saying that the old format was awful and no one would choose it. Can you explain these contradictions?
The format was awful and most people who actually want to play PvP would rather play the new BGs.
It's absolutely not contradicting.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
I don't think BGs should ever be designed around people who don't actually want to PvP and who won't like either mode though.
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
PvE players in this game are never going to like PvP and ZOS needs to stop trying to pull more of them into PvP. Instead they should just design PvP to be as good for actual PvP players as possible.PC/EU, StamSorc Main6 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭
Yea, he has them all fooled.It's still ridiculous and simply trying to mislead ZOS.
The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.I'm literally 100% sure the results would not be anywhere near what you think.
8v8 is here to stay. Players who enjoy lopsided matches and don't like the challenges of the 3-teams format will keep it alive.8v8 can absolutely be all of those things too.
So all 4 queue options need to be what you want and no one can have the option to play 3-sided BGs ever again. Seems fair.Has absolutely nothing to do with human decency.
I know that I myself and lots of other people i know would rather have all of the current queue options than have 4v4v4 replace one or even 2 of them.
So no thank you
.
Show me then.4v4v4 was also horribly unbalanced and predictable the majority of the time just that in 4v4v4 the weakest team was focused by 2/3rds of the BG instead of half the BG.
''Three-teams BGs were played by staying together, avoiding the sandwich, and focusing the targets by order of squishiness.''
Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Edited by Moonspawn on April 17, 2025 8:59AM0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭You accused me of wanting 3-sided BGs back so I can ''hide from combat''. You are right in recognizing that the old format was better for that. Do you know who else would recognize it instantly? The newcomers who are queueing into BGs right now in pursuit of those sweet rewards.
Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers, because they didn't need to fight and could sneak their way to a win in any mode but Deathmatch (where they could still hide and just try to steal kills from the teams actually fighting).
I have no idea why people would think that is a good thing though.
In a format like that it's barely even PvP.
If you queue for PvP you should be able and willing to actually fight other players.
Also in my opinion the people who just queue in to get their daily rewards once and don't actually want to PvP don't make BGs better at all.You also accused me of being after the ''second place reward''. Right again in recognizing that the new rewards would be easier to come by in 3-sided.
But then you devoted your entire next post to saying that the old format was awful and no one would choose it. Can you explain these contradictions?
The format was awful and most people who actually want to play PvP would rather play the new BGs.
It's absolutely not contradicting.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
I don't think BGs should ever be designed around people who don't actually want to PvP and who won't like either mode though.
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
PvE players in this game are never going to like PvP and ZOS needs to stop trying to pull more of them into PvP. Instead they should just design PvP to be as good for actual PvP players as possible.
These are some nice quotes. There's a lot of content here:
''The format was awful and most people who actually want to play PvP would rather play the new BGs.
It's absolutely not contradicting.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
I don't think BGs should ever be designed around people who don't actually want to PvP and who won't like either mode though.
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
PvE players in this game are never going to like PvP and ZOS needs to stop trying to pull more of them into PvP. Instead they should just design PvP to be as good for actual PvP players as possible.''0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Battlegrounds rewards are not enticing enough to get more people to queue. Style pages and AP are not much incentive for many people. Making the thesis for the white-gold war torte a BG reward was very smart, but the drop rate is so extremely low that most players don't know what it is or where to get it, so it doesn't serve as an effective incentive.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Haki_7 maybe it's just unfun to kill farm a low rank CTR objective game on a busted class.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance2 -
licenturion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am one who doesn't like PvP at all but play daily for the rewards.
2 or 3 format does not matter for rewards seekers. We just adapt.
In 3 format you could play the objective, hide or go after the team second in place to get rewards.
In 2 format I just modified into a speed-stun build with 42K health, healing and I spam fire circle constantly from afar in team fights or objectives. You wont die, and still end up high with many assists and points and if I got a few decent people in the team you win. I have even starting to like it now
1 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea, he has them all fooled.
Luckily I think he doesn't yet or we would be forced to play 4v4v4 again.The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
No I don't.
The newcomers would not chose either.
They just go back to PvE or Cyro zerging no matter if the BGs are 3 teams or 2 teams.8v8 is here to stay. Players who enjoy lopsided matches and don't like the challenges of the 3-teams format will keep it alive.
Still acting like 4v4v4 was more challenging lol.So all 4 queue options need to be what you want and no one can have the option to play 3-sided BGs ever again. Seems fair.
So you would take away 2 queues from the people who want to do it?
Seems fair.
You have absolutely no proof for saying that 3 way BGs would be more popular than any of the 2 team queues.
Neither do I for the opposite.
So stop acting like you know what "the people" want and just say that you (and maybe some people you know) want it, not the majority.Show me then.
''Three-teams BGs were played by staying together, avoiding the sandwich, and focusing the targets by order of squishiness.''
Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
I didn't record any 4v4v4s.
But basically everyone who frequently played them can tell you that happened quite often.PC/EU, StamSorc Main3 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭You accused me of wanting 3-sided BGs back so I can ''hide from combat''. You are right in recognizing that the old format was better for that. Do you know who else would recognize it instantly? The newcomers who are queueing into BGs right now in pursuit of those sweet rewards.
Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers, because they didn't need to fight and could sneak their way to a win in any mode but Deathmatch (where they could still hide and just try to steal kills from the teams actually fighting).
I have no idea why people would think that is a good thing though.
In a format like that it's barely even PvP.
If you queue for PvP you should be able and willing to actually fight other players.
Also in my opinion the people who just queue in to get their daily rewards once and don't actually want to PvP don't make BGs better at all.You also accused me of being after the ''second place reward''. Right again in recognizing that the new rewards would be easier to come by in 3-sided.
But then you devoted your entire next post to saying that the old format was awful and no one would choose it. Can you explain these contradictions?
The format was awful and most people who actually want to play PvP would rather play the new BGs.
It's absolutely not contradicting.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
I don't think BGs should ever be designed around people who don't actually want to PvP and who won't like either mode though.
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
PvE players in this game are never going to like PvP and ZOS needs to stop trying to pull more of them into PvP. Instead they should just design PvP to be as good for actual PvP players as possible.
These are some nice quotes. There's a lot of content here:
''The format was awful and most people who actually want to play PvP would rather play the new BGs.
It's absolutely not contradicting.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
I don't think BGs should ever be designed around people who don't actually want to PvP and who won't like either mode though.
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
PvE players in this game are never going to like PvP and ZOS needs to stop trying to pull more of them into PvP. Instead they should just design PvP to be as good for actual PvP players as possible.''
OK you can quote me all you want. PC/EU, StamSorc Main0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭You:
Me:Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
You:The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
???No I don't.
The newcomers would not chose either.
They just go back to PvE or Cyro zerging no matter if the BGs are 3 teams or 2 teams.
0 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭You:
Me:Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
You:The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
???No I don't.
The newcomers would not chose either.
They just go back to PvE or Cyro zerging no matter if the BGs are 3 teams or 2 teams.The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
Tbh i did misunderstand what you said. I thought you meant "after the daily" as after they completed their daily.
Then i guess on that part we do somewhat agree. Newcomers(PvErs) would rather do 4v4v4 than do 8v8 or 4v4 to complete their daily, because they're more likely to get rewards there.
However, PvP is never going to be popular with PvE players, no matter what the mode is.
They simply don't want to do PvP.
They are never going to stay in BGs after they completed their daily.
Also I think usually people like that make the BGs theyre in considerably worse and BGs would be much better off if there were no people in PvE builds queueing for rewards at all.
In my opinion designing PvP so that PvE players find it more enjoyable is a horrible idea. They are never going to like it.
Instead they should focus on making PvP as fun as possible for people who actually want to fight other players.
For that I think both 8v8 and 4v4 are considerably better than 4v4v4.
PC/EU, StamSorc Main0 -
Haki_7✭✭✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh look, two teams farming the weakest team... who would've thought. Must've been fun being in the purple team, 1 kill 43 deaths.
...sometimes they even managed to win the BG while having a KD of 3-42.
Running to empty flags and dying is fun, isn't it?
...and spare me the "oh, this is how we can fix it" nonsense - you can't. The fundamental problem is that you have a 3rd team that does what it wants, and the smart thing is just farming the easiest targets.
There is a reason every successful PvP game has a team vs team format in its "competitive" PvP, in order to keep it competitive.
You cannot have competitive PvP if on top of the random matchmaking you're now stacking two teams against the weakest team.
But maybe this is a condition some people need to feel successful, having meat shields and distractions to not go 0-7 in the battlegrounds? Team dead, just let the other two teams fight and streak back to base, wait for respawns.
That, or people enjoy getting 1st/2nd place by just running from point A to point B while others are doing what they're supposed to do in a PvP environment: PvP.
In team vs team format, it's a lot easier for players to play towards a win while also PvPing... you're not making your team fight outnumbered if you're 1v4'ing on one flag or between flags, you're creating an imbalance your team can exploit by having a 7v4 advantage against the rest of the enemy team.
In 3-way format you're essentially throwing the game by forcing your team to fight 3v4 against the third team while you're wasting time farming people on one team.
Terrible format for battlegrounds, should stay forever in Cyrodiil/IC.
Also, if people want their daily rewards... just give them a daily box for losing (i.e. participation award) & give the winners a different, better box. Win-win.Edited by Decimus on April 18, 2025 3:44PM7 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.1 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.
A video where the team that's being focused by the other two keeps trying to move together away from the sandwich, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out, but is unable to do so.0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.
A video where the team that's being focused by the other two keeps trying to move together away from the sandwich, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out, but is unable to do so.
How would you expect a bunch of people with 20k health to go anywhere when they get one shot by even one person as they jump down from the base?
I'm not sure if you quite understand the skill/knowledge gaps and BG dynamics in this game.
Even if you got 4 people who just queued in in their PvE builds to get a daily reward box to coordinate like a professional esports team, they wouldn't get anywhere with squishy builds and slow reaction times/incorrect responses to burst/CCs etc.
Even people more experienced at PvP fall victim to this as there's still a huge skill/knowledge gap between them and the top tier PvPers - a certain poster here for example is frequently getting farmed in EU BGs, even in middle of his team as the build/gameplay just aren't at the level required to survive certain players.
It is what it is.
If you want examples, I have around 7 years worth of them on my Youtube channel and probably some saved Twitch VODs as well where people just instantly die the moment they jump down from spawn.2 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.
A video where the team that's being focused by the other two keeps trying to move together away from the sandwich, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out, but is unable to do so.
How would you expect a bunch of people with 20k health to go anywhere when they get one shot by even one person as they jump down from the base?
I'm not sure if you quite understand the skill/knowledge gaps and BG dynamics in this game.
Even if you got 4 people who just queued in in their PvE builds to get a daily reward box to coordinate like a professional esports team, they wouldn't get anywhere with squishy builds and slow reaction times/incorrect responses to burst/CCs etc.
Even people more experienced at PvP fall victim to this as there's still a huge skill/knowledge gap between them and the top tier PvPers - a certain poster here for example is frequently getting farmed in EU BGs, even in middle of his team as the build/gameplay just aren't at the level required to survive certain players.
It is what it is.
If you want examples, I have around 7 years worth of them on my Youtube channel and probably some saved Twitch VODs as well where people just instantly die the moment they jump down from spawn.
No video, then?
0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Legit no clue how to make videos, sorry. Moon and I have talked and agreed that 2s and 3s can coexist. There's no need for you to keep trashing 2s like this, it is not conducive to your stated goal of bringing back 3s, nor does it show why 3s are worthwhile, instead it just makes it look like all BGs are gonna suck no matter how many sides you have.Maybe you can provide the video Moonspawn is asking forPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance2 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭You:
Me:Absolutely the 3 sided BGs were easier for newcomers
The vast majority of PvEers queueing for their dailies didn't like 4v4v4 BGs either, they were just a bit more bearable to them because they had a 66% chance to get rewards instead of the current 50%.
Sure you would probably have more people queueing to get quick rewards in 3 sided than currently, because its easier to get rewards.
You:The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
???No I don't.
The newcomers would not chose either.
They just go back to PvE or Cyro zerging no matter if the BGs are 3 teams or 2 teams.The result would be that newcomers after the daily would choose 3-sided BGs if given the choice. You literally believe the exact same thing.
Tbh i did misunderstand what you said. I thought you meant "after the daily" as after they completed their daily.
Then i guess on that part we do somewhat agree. Newcomers(PvErs) would rather do 4v4v4 than do 8v8 or 4v4 to complete their daily, because they're more likely to get rewards there.
However, PvP is never going to be popular with PvE players, no matter what the mode is.
They simply don't want to do PvP.
They are never going to stay in BGs after they completed their daily.
Also I think usually people like that make the BGs theyre in considerably worse and BGs would be much better off if there were no people in PvE builds queueing for rewards at all.
In my opinion designing PvP so that PvE players find it more enjoyable is a horrible idea. They are never going to like it.
Instead they should focus on making PvP as fun as possible for people who actually want to fight other players.
For that I think both 8v8 and 4v4 are considerably better than 4v4v4.
It seems that the part we disagree on is that you believe that turning the newcomers into BG regulars is impossible, while I believe that it isn't. If I'm wrong we'd lose nothing, and the pesky newcomers wouldn't bother you anymore in your lopsided BGs (which I wholeheartedly agree Zenimax should model to your tastes) because they would all choose 3-sided. If I'm right the BG community would achieve actual sustainable growth, for the first time ever, by converting newcomers. Seems you should be supporting my plan either way. Why aren't you?
Edited by Moonspawn on April 18, 2025 11:15PM0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.
A video where the team that's being focused by the other two keeps trying to move together away from the sandwich, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out, but is unable to do so.
How would you expect a bunch of people with 20k health to go anywhere when they get one shot by even one person as they jump down from the base?
I'm not sure if you quite understand the skill/knowledge gaps and BG dynamics in this game.
Even if you got 4 people who just queued in in their PvE builds to get a daily reward box to coordinate like a professional esports team, they wouldn't get anywhere with squishy builds and slow reaction times/incorrect responses to burst/CCs etc.
Even people more experienced at PvP fall victim to this as there's still a huge skill/knowledge gap between them and the top tier PvPers - a certain poster here for example is frequently getting farmed in EU BGs, even in middle of his team as the build/gameplay just aren't at the level required to survive certain players.
It is what it is.
If you want examples, I have around 7 years worth of them on my Youtube channel and probably some saved Twitch VODs as well where people just instantly die the moment they jump down from spawn.
No video, then?
I actually don't have many boring ones recorded (I may have underestimated myself as a content creator in the earlier statement), but here's one where I literally have no gear equipped (only reason why this BG was even worth saving) and it's not even my team that winds up getting farmed:
https://youtu.be/3GP2zZoXxAQ?si=uwxjpcO3zKvYp1AD
I stopped recording BGs almost entirely for the last year or so of 3-way BGs, it just got monotone and boring and most of them would be 6 or 7 kills, healers in two teams, one team without healer getting farmed by the more experienced PvPers who'd ignore each other apart from the occasional 1v1 somewhere for fun, which would get interrupted by a random sniper from 3rd team that you'd both then focus... and the BG then ending in 4 minutes because people stood on flags.
I have scoreboards of these BGs for various reasons, but there's literally zero reason to upload VODs of them just like there's zero reason to upload VODs of many of the boring BGs right now that happen sometimes.Edited by Decimus on April 18, 2025 9:49PM1 -
RealLoveBVB✭✭✭✭✭
✭
...sometimes they even managed to win the BG while having a KD of 3-42.
Running to empty flags and dying is fun, isn't it?
That, or people enjoy getting 1st/2nd place by just running from point A to point B while others are doing what they're supposed to do in a PvP environment: PvP.
Have in mind, that every player have a different intention why they enter battlegrounds. I know you are one, that just enjoys PvPing, killing others and have a clean sheet in best case.
Then there are those with the winner mentality, who's intention is to win the battleground, while their kd is just secondary.
And here is the 3rd reason, which brings the chaos into battlegrounds and probably the reason why BGs are discussed that much: Rewards locked behind battlegrounds.
- the first daily battleground rewards 100k+ XP. Who needs those XP? Players with a low level, as this helps them to level up very fast per day. There is your first portion of let me call them "unexperienced (pvp)- players". As they urgently need to win their match, then there are your 3-43 kd players running to empty flags.
- Battle tokens. Newly introduced with a mount and some gimmicks connected.
There we have the bunch of players who just wants their daily token, most likely doing the "earn 1000 medal" quest.
Those players are most likely also not pvpers and earning 1000 points doesn't require to win, so it's hard to expect teamplay from them.
- Achievements. I don't need to tell its an MMO and usually you can collect a lot of stuff here. So there we also have achievement hunters. They are also not interested in winning the game or looking for their kd.
For example there is an achievement "kill 100 relic carriers". Players who intent to win the match are usually defending their relic. Now there is that achievement hunter who needs the 100 kills - let the enemy take the relic, just to have a chance for the kill, eventho he risks not to get it, so they gift their enemies points.
There are probably more reasons, but you get my point for sure.
Now match 4 players together, with all the described player types and you will recognise the chaos we have in bgs now. They just don't synergize with each other and this also often leads to toxicity ingame, as everyone wants their personal interest done.
Take your screenshot as example:
Your team got a 37/10 kd and is based on kill stats the best team, yet you still just placed 3rd.
As everyone got similar points and kills, you are probably all category 1 and just had fun pvping and didn't care for the win.
The winner team is exactly the opposite. They don't mind kills, as they just aimed for the win, may it be the XP or something else.
Fun fact: Someone who wants to win, would never ever have you in their team, as you don't play for the objective (except deathmatch) and risking a loss, as you are farming kills randomly on the map.Also, if people want their daily rewards... just give them a daily box for losing (i.e. participation award) & give the winners a different, better box. Win-win.
This sounds for a logical solution at the first thought. But players will just enter the match, stay afk for the whole match and grab their box. Rewarding a losing team will motivate players to (unintentional) throw matches.
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Decimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »
...sometimes they even managed to win the BG while having a KD of 3-42.
Running to empty flags and dying is fun, isn't it?
That, or people enjoy getting 1st/2nd place by just running from point A to point B while others are doing what they're supposed to do in a PvP environment: PvP.
Have in mind, that every player have a different intention why they enter battlegrounds. I know you are one, that just enjoys PvPing, killing others and have a clean sheet in best case.
Then there are those with the winner mentality, who's intention is to win the battleground, while their kd is just secondary.
And here is the 3rd reason, which brings the chaos into battlegrounds and probably the reason why BGs are discussed that much: Rewards locked behind battlegrounds.
- the first daily battleground rewards 100k+ XP. Who needs those XP? Players with a low level, as this helps them to level up very fast per day. There is your first portion of let me call them "unexperienced (pvp)- players". As they urgently need to win their match, then there are your 3-43 kd players running to empty flags.
- Battle tokens. Newly introduced with a mount and some gimmicks connected.
There we have the bunch of players who just wants their daily token, most likely doing the "earn 1000 medal" quest.
Those players are most likely also not pvpers and earning 1000 points doesn't require to win, so it's hard to expect teamplay from them.
- Achievements. I don't need to tell its an MMO and usually you can collect a lot of stuff here. So there we also have achievement hunters. They are also not interested in winning the game or looking for their kd.
For example there is an achievement "kill 100 relic carriers". Players who intent to win the match are usually defending their relic. Now there is that achievement hunter who needs the 100 kills - let the enemy take the relic, just to have a chance for the kill, eventho he risks not to get it, so they gift their enemies points.
There are probably more reasons, but you get my point for sure.
Now match 4 players together, with all the described player types and you will recognise the chaos we have in bgs now. They just don't synergize with each other and this also often leads to toxicity ingame, as everyone wants their personal interest done.
Take your screenshot as example:
Your team got a 37/10 kd and is based on kill stats the best team, yet you still just placed 3rd.
As everyone got similar points and kills, you are probably all category 1 and just had fun pvping and didn't care for the win.
The winner team is exactly the opposite. They don't mind kills, as they just aimed for the win, may it be the XP or something else.
Fun fact: Someone who wants to win, would never ever have you in their team, as you don't play for the objective (except deathmatch) and risking a loss, as you are farming kills randomly on the map.Also, if people want their daily rewards... just give them a daily box for losing (i.e. participation award) & give the winners a different, better box. Win-win.
This sounds for a logical solution at the first thought. But players will just enter the match, stay afk for the whole match and grab their box. Rewarding a losing team will motivate players to (unintentional) throw matches.
That's a bit of a misconception, maybe more true during the 3-way BGs era but even then I'd usually also try to win the BGs & had 57% win rate (with 3 teams) on PvpMeter addon by the time it stopped working.
I recently sacrificed a lot of KDR and specifically pushed for 75% WR without leaving any battlegrounds since I wasn't happy with 73% and here we are:
In the current BGs it is more fun to play objective because it usually involves PvP'ing - fighting for the flags, for the relics... not avoiding fights - and fighting outnumbered gives an advantage to my team, not a disadvantage.3 -
Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭It seems that the part we disagree on is that you believe that turning the newcomers into BG regulars is impossible, while I believe that it isn't. If I'm wrong we'd lose nothing, and the pesky newcomers wouldn't bother you anymore in your lopsided BGs (which I wholeheartedly agree Zenimax should model to your tastes) because they would all choose 3-sided. If I'm right the BG community would achieve actual sustainable growth, for the first time ever, by converting newcomers. Seems you should be supporting my plan either way. Why aren't you?
Because it would still be taking away some form of 4v4 or 8v8 BGs from people who want to do them, just because YOU think that 4v4v4 would be more popular.
It would split up both the already not huge BG playerbase and developer focus between 2 types of BGs.
Also BG didnt have "actual sustainable growth" back when it was 4v4v4 either. Actually i would say that i see considerably more newcomers in the current BGs than in the 3 team version.
I really dont understand what would make you think that 4v4v4 would be super popular now when it was barely played before.Edited by Jierdanit on April 19, 2025 5:22AMPC/EU, StamSorc Main2 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭@xylena_lazarow
hiya
I have not been keeping up with the thread
but if I remember correctly you prefer 2-teams BGs, and kept repeating that 3-teams was 4v8, yes? Maybe you can provide the video @Moonspawn is asking for, then. I'm guessing that the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.Show me a Solo Queue 3-sided BG where the weakest team kept getting focused by the other teams even as they kept trying to retreat together away from the sandwich.
Yes. It's important that ''the team being focused must be at least trying to move together away from the sandwich though, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out.'' Can't be a scoreboard screenshot, or a video where the weakest team is insisting on the wrong and pointless move. @Decimus do you have it?
Do I have what, videos of where the weakest team isn't playing like the weakest team?
I'm not quite sure I follow.
A video where the team that's being focused by the other two keeps trying to move together away from the sandwich, instead of pointlessly attempting to fight their way out, but is unable to do so.
How would you expect a bunch of people with 20k health to go anywhere when they get one shot by even one person as they jump down from the base?
I'm not sure if you quite understand the skill/knowledge gaps and BG dynamics in this game.
Even if you got 4 people who just queued in in their PvE builds to get a daily reward box to coordinate like a professional esports team, they wouldn't get anywhere with squishy builds and slow reaction times/incorrect responses to burst/CCs etc.
Even people more experienced at PvP fall victim to this as there's still a huge skill/knowledge gap between them and the top tier PvPers - a certain poster here for example is frequently getting farmed in EU BGs, even in middle of his team as the build/gameplay just aren't at the level required to survive certain players.
It is what it is.
If you want examples, I have around 7 years worth of them on my Youtube channel and probably some saved Twitch VODs as well where people just instantly die the moment they jump down from spawn.
No video, then?
I actually don't have many boring ones recorded (I may have underestimated myself as a content creator in the earlier statement), but here's one where I literally have no gear equipped (only reason why this BG was even worth saving) and it's not even my team that winds up getting farmed:https://youtu.be/3GP2zZoXxAQ?si=uwxjpcO3zKvYp1AD
I stopped recording BGs almost entirely for the last year or so of 3-way BGs, it just got monotone and boring and most of them would be 6 or 7 kills, healers in two teams, one team without healer getting farmed by the more experienced PvPers who'd ignore each other apart from the occasional 1v1 somewhere for fun, which would get interrupted by a random sniper from 3rd team that you'd both then focus... and the BG then ending in 4 minutes because people stood on flags.
I have scoreboards of these BGs for various reasons, but there's literally zero reason to upload VODs of them just like there's zero reason to upload VODs of many of the boring BGs right now that happen sometimes.
Doesn't look like a 8v4 to me, just a standard 3-sided Domination. Thanks anyway.0 -
Moonspawn✭✭✭✭
You think it would be more popular too:Because it would still be taking away some form of 4v4 or 8v8 BGs from people who want to do them, just because YOU think that 4v4v4 would be more popular.
The preferred format of the newcomers (90% of players in queue) should obviously be made available whether it replaces dead queue options or not.Then i guess on that part we do somewhat agree. Newcomers(PvErs) would rather do 4v4v4 than do 8v8 or 4v4 to complete their daily, because they're more likely to get rewards there.
With no rewards to draw people in and no separate DM queue? How could it?Also BG didnt have "actual sustainable growth" back when it was 4v4v4 either.
Multiplying the amount of transmutation crystals you get from BGs by fifty might have something to do with the increased participation.Actually i would say that i see considerably more newcomers in the current BGs than in the 3 team version.
With the rewards we have right now, and a separate DM queue so players with different objectives aren't forced into the same match? How could it not?I really dont understand what would make you think that 4v4v4 would be super popular now when it was barely played before.
After the return of 3-sided, Zenimax should keep investing in 2-sided until it can compete... or until they understand that it never will.It would split up both the already not huge BG playerbase and developer focus between 2 types of BGs.
It's unfortunate that you've shown some modicum of sincerity by recognizing that the newcomers would choose 3-sided, but then went right back to cartoonishly fighting until your dying breath to deny people the choice.
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This discussion has been closed.