Subclassing: Level up skill trees on main vs alt?

CahirMawrDyffryn · April 16

I don't have access to the PTS so I'm asking here.

1) At what rate to subclasses on your main character level up vs on alt characters of the respective class? I know they said it would be slower.

2) Are class tree levels now fully account shared? Or only after reaching lvl 50? I'm wondering whether I should level up my alts to 50 or just leave them at level 20-30ish, to pick up where I left off on my main.

Wereswan · April 16

CahirMawrDyffryn wrote: »

I don't have access to the PTS so I'm asking here.

1) At what rate to subclasses on your main character level up vs on alt characters of the respective class? I know they said it would be slower.

Half the speed of your "native" skill lines. They also require twice as many skill points.

2) Are class tree levels now fully account shared? Or only after reaching lvl 50? I'm wondering whether I should level up my alts to 50 or just leave them at level 20-30ish, to pick up where I left off on my main.

Progress is account-wide, so if you have, say, Animal Companions levelled to 25 on one alt, that's where your progress would start on another.

ZOS_GregoryV · April 16

Greetings,

As this thread is in regards to the PTS, we have moved it to a more appropriate category.

Regards,
-Greg-

Erickson9610 · April 17

Subclassed skill lines share accountwide progress, while skill lines belonging to the character's base class are not accountwide.

You still need to level your own base skill lines to 50 on each character, but you only need to level subclass skill lines to 50 once per account. Be sure to switch to another character and level the subclass skill lines of the first character, since you can never level subclass skill lines for a class that you already are.

Wereswan · April 17

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Subclassed skill lines share accountwide progress, while skill lines belonging to the character's base class are not accountwide.

You still need to level your own base skill lines to 50 on each character, but you only need to level subclass skill lines to 50 once per account. Be sure to switch to another character and level the subclass skill lines of the first character, since you can never level subclass skill lines for a class that you already are.

Well, there goes any lingering chance of me trying this. Already did 20 alts of that, not doing it 21 more times.

madmufffin · April 17

Wereswan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Subclassed skill lines share accountwide progress, while skill lines belonging to the character's base class are not accountwide.

You still need to level your own base skill lines to 50 on each character, but you only need to level subclass skill lines to 50 once per account. Be sure to switch to another character and level the subclass skill lines of the first character, since you can never level subclass skill lines for a class that you already are.

Well, there goes any lingering chance of me trying this. Already did 20 alts of that, not doing it 21 more times.

You only have to do it once on one toon and you'll have the maxed out line available account wide.

Wereswan · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Subclassed skill lines share accountwide progress, while skill lines belonging to the character's base class are not accountwide.

You still need to level your own base skill lines to 50 on each character, but you only need to level subclass skill lines to 50 once per account. Be sure to switch to another character and level the subclass skill lines of the first character, since you can never level subclass skill lines for a class that you already are.

Well, there goes any lingering chance of me trying this. Already did 20 alts of that, not doing it 21 more times.

You only have to do it once on one toon and you'll have the maxed out line available account wide.

That's the point: it's still 21 repetitions of "swap out a skill line, grind a new one, repeat" when the point of levelling all those alts was to be done with that grind for good.

Vylaera · April 17

wait so I'm confused. Leveling a character's class skill lines, getting the class mastery achievement and the achievements for each of their skill lines, does not mean that they start at 50 when you subclass those skill lines on another character? Why would I need to level them again if I already have the mastery achievements?

ForumBully · April 17

Vylaera wrote: »

wait so I'm confused. Leveling a character's class skill lines, getting the class mastery achievement and the achievements for each of their skill lines, does not mean that they start at 50 when you subclass those skill lines on another character? Why would I need to level them again if I already have the mastery achievements?

If you have the skill line leveled on any character, you won't have to level it again when using it at a subclass. If you don't have it leveled, you will and it will be slower.

BattleAxe · April 17

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Could we have some clarity on this topic if I have the skill line fully leveled on an alt will the progress carry to sub classing lines

Example: if I have a max leveled necromancer with all skill lines maxed will their progress carry if I put a line from that class onto another?

Erickson9610 · April 17

Vylaera wrote: »

wait so I'm confused. Leveling a character's class skill lines, getting the class mastery achievement and the achievements for each of their skill lines, does not mean that they start at 50 when you subclass those skill lines on another character? Why would I need to level them again if I already have the mastery achievements?

That is correct. You'd need to level those skill lines on characters of that class to 50 in order to be able to use those skill lines in subclassing, then you have to level those subclassed skill lines on any character which isn't of that subclassed skill line's class.

So it's get skill lines to 50 to unlock those skill lines for subclassing -> get the subclass version of skill lines to 50 -> done

Basically you grind out each class skill line in the game twice — there's the regular version (character-specific) and then the subclass version (account-wide). The subclass version takes longer to level up and costs twice as many skill points for each rank of passive and morph of skill.

ForumBully · April 17

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

wait so I'm confused. Leveling a character's class skill lines, getting the class mastery achievement and the achievements for each of their skill lines, does not mean that they start at 50 when you subclass those skill lines on another character? Why would I need to level them again if I already have the mastery achievements?

That is correct. You'd need to level those skill lines on characters of that class to 50 in order to be able to use those skill lines in subclassing, then you have to level those subclassed skill lines on any character which isn't of that subclassed skill line's class.

So it's get skill lines to 50 to unlock those skill lines for subclassing -> get the subclass version of skill lines to 50 -> done

Basically you grind out each skill line in the game twice — there's the regular version (character-specific) and then the subclass version (account-wide).

You don't need to re level max level skill lines. This is account wide. If you have the skill line leveled on any toons you have the account wide skill line mastery achievement whatever it's called. The skill lines will be added at max level on characters that subclass that skill line.

This is on the PTS this way right now. I made new max level characters specifically to get the class lines fully eveled on a character I wanted to test

Erickson9610 · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

wait so I'm confused. Leveling a character's class skill lines, getting the class mastery achievement and the achievements for each of their skill lines, does not mean that they start at 50 when you subclass those skill lines on another character? Why would I need to level them again if I already have the mastery achievements?

That is correct. You'd need to level those skill lines on characters of that class to 50 in order to be able to use those skill lines in subclassing, then you have to level those subclassed skill lines on any character which isn't of that subclassed skill line's class.

So it's get skill lines to 50 to unlock those skill lines for subclassing -> get the subclass version of skill lines to 50 -> done

Basically you grind out each skill line in the game twice — there's the regular version (character-specific) and then the subclass version (account-wide).

You don't need to re level max level skill lines. This is account wide. If you have the skill line leveled on any toons you have the account wide skill line mastery achievement whatever it's called. The skill lines will be added at max level on characters that subclass that skill line.

This is on the PTS this way right now. I made new max level characters specifically to get the class lines fully eveled on a character I wanted to test

That's what I'm saying.

If you subclass a skill line and you've already gotten the subclass version to rank 50, you'll never need to level the subclass skill line again.

Base skill lines still need to be leveled. You won't begin at rank 50 in your original class skill lines when creating a character; you still need to level your original skill lines up.

The thing about the PTS templates is that the max level template sets all of your subclass skill line ranks to 50, so you skip the grind. Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

There will be an additional grind for everyone when the feature officially releases — even those who have max rank in all skill lines already. Thankfully, it's just an account-wide grind.

ForumBully · April 17

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

Wereswan · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

Erickson9610 · April 17

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

Yes, exactly this.

For instance, "native Aedric Spear" is not the same as "subclass Aedric Spear". You always have to level native Aedric Spear on a new Templar character, but on non-Templar characters, they can pick up subclass Aedric Spear and level it to 50, the progress of which is shared account wide.

That means that a Templar will never get to level up subclass Aedric Spear, because they get to use native Aedric Spear. If you want to level up all subclass skill lines, you need more than one character.

New characters will still need to level up their native skill lines as before, but when subclassing, the subclass skill lines share progress between all characters who are also subclassing those skill lines. Your native skill line progress on any character does not affect your subclass skill line progress in any capacity, and vice versa.

Wereswan · April 17

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

Yes, exactly this.

For instance, "native Aedric Spear" is not the same as "subclass Aedric Spear". You always have to level native Aedric Spear on a new Templar character, but on non-Templar characters, they can pick up subclass Aedric Spear and level it to 50, the progress of which is shared account wide.

That means that a Templar will never get to level up subclass Aedric Spear, because they get to use native Aedric Spear. If you want to level up all subclass skill lines, you need more than one character.

New characters will still need to level up their native skill lines as before, but when subclassing, the subclass skill lines share progress between them. Your native skill line progress does not affect your subclass skill line progress in any capacity.

Honestly, the direction they're going with this seems like it'll eventually be a better system, where all skill progression could be account-wide rather than character-bound. It just doesn't make me any more keen to experience the indefinite period of time between now and "eventually."

CahirMawrDyffryn · April 17

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

Yes, exactly this.

For instance, "native Aedric Spear" is not the same as "subclass Aedric Spear". You always have to level native Aedric Spear on a new Templar character, but on non-Templar characters, they can pick up subclass Aedric Spear and level it to 50, the progress of which is shared account wide.

That means that a Templar will never get to level up subclass Aedric Spear, because they get to use native Aedric Spear. If you want to level up all subclass skill lines, you need more than one character.

New characters will still need to level up their native skill lines as before, but when subclassing, the subclass skill lines share progress between all characters who are also subclassing those skill lines. Your native skill line progress on any character does not affect your subclass skill line progress in any capacity, and vice versa.

Thanks for the helpful info!

So just to clarify—there’s no point in leveling all my alt native skill lines (aka my future subclass skillines) before the update, right? Since we'll be able to unlock all subclasses on our main without needing level 50 alts, doing it now would just mean double the work for little gain?

Also, how long does it usually take to unlock a new class/subclass skill tree if you haven’t already earned Class Mastery on an alt?

And lastly, is the acquisition quest skipped only if I have Class Mastery on another character, or does simply having a character with that skill line at any level already bypass the quest (or whatever the process is)?

a_u_s_t_y · April 17

Guys relax… they obviously will add skill lines to the crown store, no grinding necessary

licenturion · April 17

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

This is completely wrong.

On the PTS the unlock conditions are tied to the class master achievements (this is clearly stated in the PTS help section). You can also see the reward is 'Upgrade: Skill Line Ardent Flame'. Those achievements and unlocks are not present in the current live version.

So when the update goes live there are 2 possibities:
- (Best case) ZOS already granted you server side the achievements when you boot you character for all you level 50 class skills.
- (Not best case) You have to log in and log out with each alt character one time to sync the achievement progress with your class skill levels.

But under no circumstance do you have to level those skills again from zero at half speed if you already have alts that either have already progressed or maxed out the skill line. Those master achievement progress is account wide. The only info missing is the fact if this progress still counts if you deleted alts with maxed out skill lines in the past.

There are no 2 versions of the same class skills.

ForumBully · April 17

Let's try this. Go into the live game and go to Journal->Achievements->Character
Way down near the bottom you'll see the Class subcategory. For each class there are currently 2 Achievements I think, reach level 10 and reach level 50. The level 50 ones are:
Dark Executor (NB)
Dragon Master-at-Arms (DK)
Lights Champion (Templar)
Grand Sorcerer (Sorcerer)
Grand Necromancer (Necromancer)
Champion of the Green (Warden)
Archimage of Apocrypha (Arcanist)

If these achievements are unlocked then you've leveled the respective class on your account and won't have to level those skill lines again when used in Subclassing.

Myself as an example, they are all unlocked except for Arcanist because I never leveled one. I can still use the Arcanist skill lines in Subclassing but if I don't level the lines on a native Arcanist it will take longer to level.
So, it's better for me to level one Arcanist character while waiting for the update so that when Subclassing launches I can use those skill lines without needing to level them then.

One note: Some achievements are changing with the update, so after the update drops log into all characters to make sure the new achievements are registered...I think they're called individual class mastery names and I'm too lazy to go look now.

the1andonlyskwex · April 17

I'm not on PTS so I'm not sure who it is, but someone in this thread is spreading pretty bad misinformation.

licenturion · April 17

This is correct. If you have this achievement you have maxed out the 3 skill lines and get to use them right away.

Example for a templar. Each checkmark confirms you maxed it out for your account

ForumBully · April 17

licenturion wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Let's try this. Go into the live game and go to Journal->Achievements->Character
Way down near the bottom you'll see the Class subcategory. For each class there are currently 2 Achievements I think, reach level 10 and reach level 50. The level 50 ones are:
Dark Executor (NB)
Dragon Master-at-Arms (DK)
Lights Champion (Templar)
Grand Sorcerer (Sorcerer)
Grand Necromancer (Necromancer)
Champion of the Green (Warden)
Archimage of Apocrypha (Arcanist)

If these achievements are unlocked then you've leveled the respective class on your account and won't have to level those skill lines again when used in Subclassing.

Myself as an example, they are all unlocked except for Arcanist because I never leveled one. I can still use the Arcanist skill lines in Subclassing but if I don't level the lines on a native Arcanist it will take longer to level.
So, it's better for me to level one Arcanist character while waiting for the update so that when Subclassing launches I can use those skill lines without needing to level them then.

One note: Some achievements are changing with the update, so after the update drops log into all characters to make sure the new achievements are registered...I think they're called individual class mastery names and I'm too lazy to go look now.

This is not the same.

Those achievements you listed only indicate you levelled your class to 50 but not the skill lines. You could have used 1 class skill line and 2 guild skillines. So you only have unlocked that 1 skill for subclassing.

Those achievements you mention are still present on the PTS but award a title but not a skill line upgrade like that screenshot I posted earlier above.

So if you want to fully prepare you need: an alt of each class with all 3 skill classes on level 50. I don't think the character level of those alts matters.

You only need to be level 50 on a character you want to use subclasses on. The subclass starting quest is locked to level 50

(PTS)

Yes, that's why I put the note about achievements changing at the bottom. This is great clarification and the image helps, thanks. I didn't have the new achievement names at my fingertips, and just made the assumption that if someone had a class to 50 they probably had the skill lines there, which may not be the case.

Anyway, best advice; If you're going to want to use a skill line in subclassing level it on your account before the update so you can use it starting at level 50 when the update is live

licenturion · April 17

I changed my post because upon looking closer, you were right

The best way is indeed maxing out all class skill lines to 50 if you have any alts. I did some dolmen this weekend to finish them. The 2XP event really helps.

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

licenturion wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Normally, you'll have to grind those subclass skill lines to 50 once per account, even if you have a different character of that class who is at rank 50 in those skill lines.

This is the confusing part. If you have it leveled on a different character who is at rank 50 you don't have to level it again.

It reads to me like you're saying the opposite

If I understand this correctly, there are basically two versions of class skills: the "native" ones your character starts with, and the "subclass" versions. Subclass versions are account-wide, but because they are effectively a new and distinct skill line, you have to level that up to 50 again no matter how many of your alts have the "native" version at 50.

Edit to add: it's confusing because the subclass skills are all named the same things as the "native" skill lines they duplicate, and contain all the same abilities and passives, but as far as the game engine is concerned, it's a new account-wide skill.

This is completely wrong.

On the PTS the unlock conditions are tied to the class master achievements (this is clearly stated in the PTS help section). You can also see the reward is 'Upgrade: Skill Line Ardent Flame'. Those achievements and unlocks are not present in the current live version.

So when the update goes live there are 2 possibities:
- (Best case) ZOS already granted you server side the achievements when you boot you character for all you level 50 class skills.
- (Not best case) You have to log in and log out with each alt character one time to sync the achievement progress with your class skill levels.

But under no circumstance do you have to level those skills again from zero at half speed if you already have alts that either have already progressed or maxed out the skill line. Those master achievement progress is account wide. The only info missing is the fact if this progress still counts if you deleted alts with maxed out skill lines in the past.

There are no 2 versions of the same class skills.

@licenturion Question, let's say I've got a fully maxed out warden and I roll a new warden alt. Would the warden skills on the new warden be fully maxed out at 50 like if I was subclassing? I know this isn't subclassing since it's the same class but this should logically be a possibility and a way to not have to fully level a new alt of the same class - i.e. basically a max rank token equivalent like we had in SWTOR and WOW.

licenturion · April 17

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

@licenturion Question, let's say I've got a fully maxed out warden and I roll a new warden alt. Would the warden skills on the new warden be fully maxed out at 50 like if I was subclassing? I know this isn't subclassing since it's the same class but this should logically be a possibility and a way to not have to fully level a new alt of the same class - i.e. basically a max rank token equivalent like we had in SWTOR and WOW.

No the progress available is only when you subclass and only for those other class skill lines.

When you roll a new character, you basically start those 3 skill lines for your own class from 1 again. Which is normal cause otherwise role-players would be up in arms if they started a character partially maxed out.

On the PTS they added this to make it clear this is for you own character only

So for your own class skills

For a subclass it looks like this

Ragnarok0130 · April 17

licenturion wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

@licenturion Question, let's say I've got a fully maxed out warden and I roll a new warden alt. Would the warden skills on the new warden be fully maxed out at 50 like if I was subclassing? I know this isn't subclassing since it's the same class but this should logically be a possibility and a way to not have to fully level a new alt of the same class - i.e. basically a max rank token equivalent like we had in SWTOR and WOW.

No the progress available is only when you subclass and only for those other class skill lines.

When you roll a new character, you basically start those 3 skill lines for your own class from 1 again. Which is normal cause otherwise role-players would be up in arms if they started a character partially maxed out.

On the PTS they added this to make it clear this is for you own character only

So for your own class skills

For a subclass it looks like this

Thank you for the explanation, it's what I expected but not what I hoped for since a max rank token or equivalent would be very helpful for end game.

Regarding role players I not sure how max skill ranks would be a negative for them since they don't really interact with the combat system, at least not beyond overland. A simple "do you wish to upgrade these skill lines" notification/choice would be a solid solution to please both sides of this equation.

licenturion · April 17

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Thank you for the explanation, it's what I expected but not what I hoped for since a max rank token or equivalent would be very helpful for end game.

Regarding role players I not sure how max skill ranks would be a negative for them since they don't really interact with the combat system, at least not beyond overland. A simple "do you wish to upgrade these skill lines" notification/choice would be a solid solution to please both sides of this equation.

Yeah, when you maxed out a character + it's class skill lines it would be cool to have those LVL50 PTS templates on live as well instead of 10 hours doing dolmen.

But that is probably not interesting for engagement and financial numbers

katorga · April 17

We should not have to "re-level" the trees if we already have a class at level 50 with the skill trees maxed. Which most players probably do at this point.

ExtraPenguin · April 17

On PTS, the class mastery achievements don’t show up until you’ve logged in with a character of that class. Is this a bug?

I also was not expecting to re-level a skill like from 1 if it’s already at 50 on a character of that class. As others have said, we shouldn’t have to. The PTS definitely shows skills at 1 when I have the achievement for that skill line.

Edit: Screenshots