PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

Atharti · April 16

Like, whats the point of giving toys to all, if these toys are not fun anymore?

What is this 6 target cap for Jabs and arc Beam? Do whatever to them please, nerf damage, cost, remove healing, just dont touch the non-target being non-target.

Non-target spammables is the best thing about ESO combat. Its really annoying to click mobs one by one with single skills on overland, especially with heavy attacks on lightning staff since you stole the AoE damage from it. (could leave at least 50 or 25% AoE so it doesnt feel that bad, i know you needed to sell arcanist but still)

So i was super excited when you anounced sub classing, i thought i would finally get some abilities so i can enjoy the game on my warden fully. Until i did read the patchnotes.

You already destoryed templar before and Jabs are not feeling like it was and certainly far from being OP to nerf them again. So please dont take at least the AoE part from them. 6 targets cap would be enough in most of scenarios but in some certain ones it would feel really bad when fighting hordes of enemies like for example Skyreach grind, or Spellscar grind. There is no really a reason to change them at all. Its a nice skill how it is right now, why make it worse? For people not to use it? Why? I see not a single reason to do that besides just to make them no fun anymore. Same applies for a beam, cost increase fine, before arcanists never needed any sustain buff at all and were self sufficient. But target cap on AoE 20m skill? Why would you do that? This 6 target restriction sounds like a some old 2002 game that got limits due to performace limitations of a bad servers. There is a no problem that these abilities "becoming too dominant" as they are good abilities and people want to use them for that reason. Maybe instead of ruining them, re-think other skills that game offer to tune them up for better experience? Can we not have that in 2025 and not take fun from the game? If you still want to nerf them, maybe dont apply the target cap and make every next enemy to take less damage instead? That would be much better than a hardcoded 6 target cap. Please.

Mages Wrath change from 4 sec to 2 sec is not good either. Why if it wasnt a problem for 11 years its supposed to be changed with subclassing? Like what changed to do so?

Warden Piercing cold is a joke really, im playing for 5th year and its changing every year. Now its something okayish really, i thought you will stop changing it. As now it can be proced with frost enchantment for example so it works on any build without a need of frost damage. Current change would be acceptable if you would change Deep Fissure, Screaming Cliff Racer, and mag morph of Fetherflies to do Frost damage instead of Magic, otherwise its a nonsense. Very two very niche skills from Winters Embrace doing frost damage, i dont count the ultimate as its very niche as well, just for pvp and not for all even there. Should be like on DK really, as someone mentioned: passive for Flame\Poison damage = All skills are Flame or Poison, it makes sense. Magic damage on Warden - NO.

Lotus Flower nerf is made up completely, its not that much used as all, expecially to proc with heavy attacks. I really would like to see this skill fully passive cross-panel like NB got their Leeching Strikes right now, as its dead cast is quite weird and anyway cost nothing. Also would give all roles of warden a good way to provide their group with unique class buff which is Minor Toughness, and not just as healer, as other classes do with their unique buffs like Minor Brutality on DK etc.

Frozen Gate, i was really shocked with its distance nerf earlier this year without a reason, and its got nothing in return. I have a question, why it does not taunt the pulled target as other pull abilities? Its still a single target skill.

Icy Aura, restriction for melee makes this passive completely useless for ranged wardens besides the new effect being questionable at all. I dont see any use for that passive.

Other Warden passive changes are good, at least going up not down as usual.

Merciless & Armaments = please dont. NB already can hit with it up to 21k in pvp, so two in a row would be too much really. Those skills are good as they are. Armaments damage nerf is okay as its doing too much pressure on pvp in skilled hands, probably wont change anything for these players.

Daedric Summoning changes are really bad, if you want to keep it like that, maybe shuffle skill line a bit and move Conjured Ward and Bound Aegis into another skill line and exchange it with something useless like Rune Cage and Daedric Mines.

For scribing i would like to see an Off-Balance option for Soul, so it can be used to create 2 bar heavy attacks builds once again.

Thank you and please do not take fun from the game.

Morvan · April 16

With subclassing now being a thing, there are a few changes that came to mind that I think will benefit theory crafting with different builds and now might just be the perfect time to implement them, and also some feedback on skill lines that are way too overpowered, mostly for their passive potential.

Warden
- Winter's Embrace
  - Frost Cloak: One of the morphs for this could be reworked into an offensive skill, similarly to how Bound Armor has an offensive and defensive morph, Winter's Embrace needs some offensive tools of its own, especially now that Piercing Cold only boosts frost damage. Overall I think the whole Winter's Embrace line could get more love.

Nightblade
- Assassination
  - Assassin's Blade: The cost on this skill and morphs should be determined by highest max resource, an archer needs go to melee for Killer's Blade, as they're stamina based, which feels very awkward, they would benefit much more from Impale if that wasn't locked as a magicka skill. The decision between the morphs should be based on if you either want to go melee or ranged, not if you're magicka or stamina.
  - Master Assassin: I feel like 8.8% additional crit chance for flanking is a bit too much, could definitely be toned down and will still be an upgrade from its previous version.

Necromancer
- Grave Lord
  - Sacrificial Bones
    - Grave Lord's Sacrifice: This one was a surprise, unpopular on Necro after its rework, but completely overpowered when combined with Herald of the Tome, it definitely needs to be toned down, either make it scale with the amount of Grave Lord skills you have slotted or affect Grave Lord skills only, either way it deserves the same treatment Daedric Prey got.
    - Death Knell: Similar from above, as much as I love Necromancer, its potential to passively boost damage is too much, 20% critical chance on execute on the same skill line that also boosts all you DoT and Class damage by 15% is crazy, this should be reverted to scale with the amount of Grave Lord skills again or brought back to its original numbers.

Arcanist
- Herald of the Tome
  - Fatecarver: The damage buff on this was really unnecessary. Arcanist by itself has way too much cleave potential, and its popularity isn't just due to it being easy. At the same time, I think the cost nerf should also be reduced — stamina management will be tricky, especially for those using Coral Riptide — but I guess maybe that was the intention.

Kadoozy · April 16

Like others, I think the daedric summoning skill line could use some work. In particular Daedric Prey. It kind of defeats the point of summoning an army if you can't buff them. Especially since you included proc sets as things that are no longer buffed by Prey, when basically everyone knows (and enjoys) you run Maw as a pet sorc because that's about the only time that set is used. Not to mention all the other pet proc sets that people like to run with Prey for fun. I would rather just see a reduction in the overall amount of damage increase that Prey provides and have it apply to all pets. Or have it buff sorcerer pets by say 40% and all other pets by half that to compensate power creep (or whatever percentages are deemed fair). I think most of the other changes to the skill line are fine or manageable to work around.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 16

Firstmep wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I just ran across another thing that could be an issue. I haven't tested it yet, so someone fact check me but:

We may want to make Class abilities/Passives that snare opponents non stackable.

With this bar setup, Dk passive Warmth, Biting jabs snare, and Scribing snare, I can essentially 100% snare you.

Like I said I haven't tested this, but class snares probably shouldn't stack.

Snares are multiplicative, not additive (with i believe the exception of Sea Serpent?), so you wont reach a 100% snare on anyone. That changed a long time ago around Summerset when Templars and Wardens were staring everyone with massive AoEs in PvP.

So, no.
The only way snares interact is that only the strongest one applies. Which is also what makes sea serpent so good.

Yes you are correct, I had kinda forgotten that's how they fixed the problem

FoJul · April 16

Firstmep wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I just ran across another thing that could be an issue. I haven't tested it yet, so someone fact check me but:

We may want to make Class abilities/Passives that snare opponents non stackable.

With this bar setup, Dk passive Warmth, Biting jabs snare, and Scribing snare, I can essentially 100% snare you.

Like I said I haven't tested this, but class snares probably shouldn't stack.

Snares are multiplicative, not additive (with i believe the exception of Sea Serpent?), so you wont reach a 100% snare on anyone. That changed a long time ago around Summerset when Templars and Wardens were staring everyone with massive AoEs in PvP.

So, no.
The only way snares interact is that only the strongest one applies. Which is also what makes sea serpent so good.

When was this, because I swear when i was using SSC, i was still getting hella snared by templar.

PrinceShroob · April 16

The thing is, I wouldn't be as irritated about changes that will negatively impact Sorcerer tanking if subclassing were not an obnoxious slog. Leveling the skill lines from the beginning--again? And it takes twice as much experience and twice as many skill points? I don't care if once they're leveled, they're account-wide--it means spending too much time mindlessly grinding Dragonstar Arena or Spellscar or Black Rose Prison after already doing that to level those same skill lines when they were attached to specific classes.

***

With regard to Daedric Summoning, losing the pet is already punishing enough since you lose access to its ability. And other classes like Nightblade get maximum resource bonuses for merely slotting skills. You aren't locked into making the Expert Summoner passive require having a pet summoned because you can always just change the passive's name, y'know. Hell, it's not like names and icons are indicative of the effect, anyway--half of Sorcerer's skill icons are air-themed skills we never got and Malevolent Offering still looks like vines entangling boots because the icon wasn't edit from when it was Agony.

***

At this point, I'd say that a fair compromise would be to only allow subclassing outside of scored and veteran-difficulty instances--that is, overland, normal dungeons and trials, and dueling, but not veteran dungeons and trials, Infinite Archive, Battlegrounds, and Cyrodiil. That'll make casual players who wouldn't touch group content with a ten-foot pole happy and let PvPers gauge the system's impact using dueling, while letting endgame parsers test the system's impact on damage output. You already don't allow the armory assistant in scored content, so it's not like that'd be too unusual.

Mark my words--you'll do more harm releasing subclassing half-baked and having to furiously reign it in than if you released it in a limited form and expanded it later.

BasP · April 16

Let me preface this by saying that I was looking forward to subclassing and actually like quite a few of the changes that have been made, such as the updates to the Aedric Spear and Assassination skill lines. That said, like many others, I do feel that some skill lines and abilities could still use another look.

Piercing Cold

While I really appreciate that this passive no longer relies on having under 30K Max Health, I find the new buff a bit underwhelming. Unless I'm missing something, there simply aren't enough strong Frost Damage skills in the game to justify building around this passive. Before seeing the patch notes, I was planning to keep the Winter's Embrace skill line on my Magden and maybe swap it out on my Stamden to make those builds more distinct from one another, but with Piercing Cold's current state falling behind so many other skill lines, it's hard to justify keeping it at all.

I believe someone suggested that Piercing Cold should increase both Frost and Bleed Damage by 10%, which I really like, both thematically and mechanically. It would still be weaker than the current generic 8% Damage Done buff on the live server, but at least it would synergize with more of the Warden's kit.

Another idea I thought was clever was having the passive increase Frost Damage by 10% and Critical Chance by 6%, which would make it beneficial for any player wanting to use this skill line on a different class. Crit Chance still fits the Frost theme in my opinion - after all, Minor Brittle increases Crit Damage and can be applied while wielding Frost Staffs.

Winter's Embrace as a whole

On that note, I'd still love to see Arctic Blast revert to healing on cast regardless of whether it hits an enemy. The conditional healing change continues to feel like a nerf aimed at PvP (though didn't actually effect PvP) that mostly hurt PvE builds.

It would also be nice if the skill line had more ways to deal Frost Damage. Someone suggested reworking one of the morphs of Frost Cloak into a damaging ability, which sounds great to me (and perhaps that morph could still give Major Resolve, similar to Hurricane). Or perhaps one of the Frozen Gate morphs could be converted into a 5-10 seconds DoT. Anything that gives the skill line a bit more offensive flexibility would help.

Animal Companions

I definitely appreciate the buff to the passives, but I think that skills like Dive and Growing Swarm could use a buff to make them worth using over other skills that Wardens have access to now.

I mean, the 400 Weapon and Spell Damage that Screaming Cliff Racer gives when you hit an off balance enemy used to be pretty good... but now, players can theoretically just slot Relentless Focus to gain up to 600 Weapon and Spell Damage (though I suppose activating that ability will be more beneficial in most cases). Hence, I think that the skill could use something more to make it worth using. As for the other morph, Cutting Dive, I feel like it could benefit from some sort of stacking mechanic to make it better when it's used as a spammable.

Grave Lord's Sacrifice

I find it a bit ironic that Necromancer players have asked for a rework of Grave Lord’s Sacrifice since its inception because it felt underwhelming. And now, suddenly, it seems like GLS may become meta... just not for pure Necros, but for builds using abilities like Fatecarver and Radiant Destruction.

I’m probably in the minority, but I still think a rework would be the better path. If it were turned into a DoT instead of just a self-buff that boosts DoT damage, for example, it could serve as a more approachable alternative to Blighted Blastbones while also helping balance strong skills like Fatecarver more cleanly.

Lykeion · April 16

Lykeion wrote: »

Please reconsider the changes to Magma Shell, as they will significantly impact the trifectas in Dreadsail Reef. I believe it’s necessary to keep at least one morph that can handle this situation. Magma Shell has effectively been the only viable countermeasure against Reef Guardian for a long time—possibly since the release of High Isle. The adjustments to Magma Shell in U46 PTS will completely overturn the established strategy for this boss

Since the patch notes did not specify the exact reasons for the changes, I assume ZOS is concerned about the potential abuse of Magma Shell through subclassing by other classes. Based on this assumption, I would like to propose a modification solution:

Set Dragonknight Standard to also prevent Ultimate gain during its active duration, but add an effect to any passive in the Ardent Flame skill line that "allows players to gain Ultimate points while an Ultimate ability is active." Since non-DK classes can only acquire one DK skill line at most, they won't be able to both use Magma Shell and gain Ultimate points during its activation. This would largely prevent Magma Shell from being abused by other classes while preserving DK's ability to use this skill tactically in Reef Guardian combats. Finally, to align with changes in previous patches, Corrosive Armor's cost should also be increased moderately.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation. That is why sorcerer can't replace a skill tree without not only sacrificing some essential class skill but also ruining the very core of the build. For instance if one would want to slot a healing skill tree they would inevitably sacrifice a core damage skill and vice versa. Once again, because sorcerer's trees aren't dedicated to any role while those of other classes are. Thus by attempting to change any of build's aspects (say healing/survivability/damage) sorcerer inevitably takes a hit too big to be worth the trouble. And considering all this the class will likely fall behind due to the fact that other classes have received heavy buffs (which is subclassing) while sorc not only is excluded but has received big nerfs as well.

Some changes and moving would be welcome, something similar has been made only recently for nightblade's shadow and assassination skill trees

And yes, I have been testing extensively during these two days. Although there’s honestly no need for testing to state the obvious.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

I say classes in my previous post although classes have effectively been deleted. Because it’s simply inefficient to miss out on other classes’ particularly loaded skill trees and skills like assassination, restoring light, animal companions among most notable for pvp builds.

I am very concerned about how subclassing will obliterate any balance we may have. Because separate classes have been worked on for years and subclassing isn’t balanced nor will it be in the nearest future if ever. It will probably lead to particular skills being nerfed with the fact in mind that they will be used alongside other classes’ loaded skills with no regard to the original class which will likely lead to original classes already fallen behind to become non competitive.

It’s honestly quite surprising and in my opinion uncalled for to say the least to see class identity being rid of in a single update after years of attempts to incentivize it.

FoJul · April 16

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation. That is why sorcerer can't replace a skill tree without not only sacrificing some essential class skill but also ruining the very core of the build. For instance if one would want to slot a healing skill tree they would inevitably sacrifice a core damage skill and vice versa. Once again, because sorcerer's trees aren't dedicated to any role while those of other classes are. Thus by attempting to change any of build's aspects (say healing/survivability/damage) sorcerer inevitably takes a hit too big to be worth the trouble. And considering all this the class will likely fall behind due to the fact that other classes have received heavy buffs (which is subclassing) while sorc not only is excluded but has received big nerfs as well.

Some changes and moving would be welcome, something similar has been made only recently for nightblade's shadow and assassination skill trees

And yes, I have been testing extensively during these two days. Although there’s honestly no need for testing to state the obvious.

I dont really agree with sorc not being able to have a high caliber because of skill allocation in the skill lines. Most builds don't use their class burst heal no more, they use a scribe heal. They also dont even use their class HoTs, they use vigor. Sorc has access to Streak, Crit surge, and Hurricane/Lightning Form on one bar. Thats main damage buff, Mobility, and Armor buff while adding a little AOE dot.

Additionally, The class burst heal hasn't been used in a long time, unless you count the broken ward thats been ramapaging cyrodil from day 1 release of its big burst heal. The passives in storm calling and the skills, actually make it a prime option for a lot of builds out there.

Assuming you are talking about PvP, since your mentioning all 3 roles, which is needed in a PvP build. Sorc has been on top as a PureClass. Minus the nerf to ward, the class by itself is still strong. So correct me if I'm wrong but your stating, that subclassing won't make Sorc stronger, and that is a problem?

Sorc's toolkit is wierd I will admit, but Sorc/Blade is finna be so popular.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

FoJul wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation. That is why sorcerer can't replace a skill tree without not only sacrificing some essential class skill but also ruining the very core of the build. For instance if one would want to slot a healing skill tree they would inevitably sacrifice a core damage skill and vice versa. Once again, because sorcerer's trees aren't dedicated to any role while those of other classes are. Thus by attempting to change any of build's aspects (say healing/survivability/damage) sorcerer inevitably takes a hit too big to be worth the trouble. And considering all this the class will likely fall behind due to the fact that other classes have received heavy buffs (which is subclassing) while sorc not only is excluded but has received big nerfs as well.

Some changes and moving would be welcome, something similar has been made only recently for nightblade's shadow and assassination skill trees

And yes, I have been testing extensively during these two days. Although there’s honestly no need for testing to state the obvious.

I dont really agree with sorc not being able to have a high caliber because of skill allocation in the skill lines. Most builds don't use their class burst heal no more, they use a scribe heal. They also dont even use their class HoTs, they use vigor. Sorc has access to Streak, Crit surge, and Hurricane/Lightning Form on one bar. Thats main damage buff, Mobility, and Armor buff while adding a little AOE dot.

Additionally, The class burst heal hasn't been used in a long time, unless you count the broken ward thats been ramapaging cyrodil from day 1 release of its big burst heal. The passives in storm calling and the skills, actually make it a prime option for a lot of builds out there.

Assuming you are talking about PvP, since your mentioning all 3 roles, which is needed in a PvP build. Sorc has been on top as a PureClass. Minus the nerf to ward, the class by itself is still strong. So correct me if I'm wrong but your stating, that subclassing won't make Sorc stronger, and that is a problem?

Sorc's toolkit is wierd I will admit, but Sorc/Blade is finna be so popular.

The only part relevant to my post’s idea is where you said you don’t agree with skill allocation, the rest is you being glad ward got nerfed.

If you like storm calling then use it, you can do so on any character now.
Classes don’t exist, sorcerer doesn’t exist. There is no reason to wage the class war anymore

FoJul · April 16

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation. That is why sorcerer can't replace a skill tree without not only sacrificing some essential class skill but also ruining the very core of the build. For instance if one would want to slot a healing skill tree they would inevitably sacrifice a core damage skill and vice versa. Once again, because sorcerer's trees aren't dedicated to any role while those of other classes are. Thus by attempting to change any of build's aspects (say healing/survivability/damage) sorcerer inevitably takes a hit too big to be worth the trouble. And considering all this the class will likely fall behind due to the fact that other classes have received heavy buffs (which is subclassing) while sorc not only is excluded but has received big nerfs as well.

Some changes and moving would be welcome, something similar has been made only recently for nightblade's shadow and assassination skill trees

And yes, I have been testing extensively during these two days. Although there’s honestly no need for testing to state the obvious.

I dont really agree with sorc not being able to have a high caliber because of skill allocation in the skill lines. Most builds don't use their class burst heal no more, they use a scribe heal. They also dont even use their class HoTs, they use vigor. Sorc has access to Streak, Crit surge, and Hurricane/Lightning Form on one bar. Thats main damage buff, Mobility, and Armor buff while adding a little AOE dot.

Additionally, The class burst heal hasn't been used in a long time, unless you count the broken ward thats been ramapaging cyrodil from day 1 release of its big burst heal. The passives in storm calling and the skills, actually make it a prime option for a lot of builds out there.

Assuming you are talking about PvP, since your mentioning all 3 roles, which is needed in a PvP build. Sorc has been on top as a PureClass. Minus the nerf to ward, the class by itself is still strong. So correct me if I'm wrong but your stating, that subclassing won't make Sorc stronger, and that is a problem?

Sorc's toolkit is wierd I will admit, but Sorc/Blade is finna be so popular.

The only part relevant to my post’s idea is where you said you don’t agree with skill allocation, the rest is you being glad ward got nerfed.

If you like storm calling then use it, you can do so on any character now.
Classes don’t exist, sorcerer doesn’t exist. There is no reason to wage the class war anymore

The biggest part about getting to play how you want. You can definitely still play a pure class and still do good. If you are comparing yourself to PvE metas and PvP metas, yeah you're going to be behind. Meta is META for a reason.

If you do choose to subclass, and be "classless", whats the issue? Style points? You don't get what you want? You don't feel like a sorc anymore? Then go back no one is forcing us to subclass.

Edit: Ill add some additional Info, For PvP run StormCalling/Assassination/Animal Companions....For PvE do I even need to say? Arc beam lol

Otherwise, maybe consider to hang the coat.

M1SHAAN · April 16

Haven't had the chance to mess around much, but I can say that I don't like the new Templar beam. Balancing issues aside, I hate the longer channel time. I like the arcanist beam, which is a similarly long channel, so I tried to figure out what makes them different for me.

To me, in comparison to arcanist beam, Templar beam simplifies combat to the point of being actively boring because there is nothing you need to think about while doing it. With the arcanist beam, you need to actively aim it, and there is incentive to keep thinking about positioning, trying to aim the beam to hit multiple enemies, etc. The combat is significantly simplified, but there are still active decisions and choice during the channel, even if there aren't AOEs to move out of. You can mindlessly beam if you want, but you can eke out better performance if you're paying attention, which makes it fun (for me).

Templar beam involves no choice or thought at all. You're locked onto a single target, so if there aren't additional mechs forcing you to move there is literally nothing to do during the channel. It is excruciatingly boring. Maybe my attention span is too short, but it sucks that I start to lose focus during parses because I've been beaming so long I start zoning out. If the channel was shorter and I had to re-up it more often, at least I'd be continually engaged by the game, even if there still wasn't much choice involved.

Varana · April 16

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation.

And that is precisely why sorcerers have a hard time multiclassing in PvE.

With one of the newer classes that have skill lines dedicated to one role, the logic goes as follows:
You take your damage skill line.
You shop around other classes' damage skill lines to complement your basic one:
Either by choosing skill lines that buff your main one.
Or by filling gaps with stronger skills (and let's be honest, that means adding Fatecarver to the arsenal).
That way, you end up with three damage-focused skill lines that ideally buff each other in meaningful ways.

The same works essentially for tanks and healers, with some variations.

But if you don't have dedicated skill lines, then that procedure becomes impossible. Instead, you either keep two or three of your class skill lines, and gimp yourself because you can't pick and choose as effectively as other classes. Or you axe two of your skill lines - but then there's not much left to buff by the others, and you better play something else entirely.

Jsmalls · April 17

Speaking strictly as a Sorcerer main.

Hardened ward needed adjustment. You literally reverted it back to a version where it NEEDED a buff.

It's 10% weaker again (lost Max stat passives because "if you don't want to use pets replace the skill line"), and it's virtually once again just another version of light armor Dampen Ward (which no one uses because it's not viable).

You say if you don't like pets then just replace the skill line, but we have Curse, Bound Aegis, and Hardened Ward in that skill line. Three core Sorcerer abilities.

Subclassing sounds awesome, but if you're gonna disregard class to class balancing because of it I'd rather not have it.

Oh and the buff to Grim Focus was laughable. Literally the hardest hitting ability in PvP and you made it better. Insane. Guess everyone will have that skill line in Cyrodiil.

StarOfElyon · April 17

Deimus wrote: »

I was bracing myself for huge out of touch Necromancer nerfs. Simply put this is top tier when it comes to positive Necromancer changes (some buffs but always a couple of nerfs to go along with it), but doesn't really do anything to make the class good. At this point you're delusional if you think Necromancer is ever going to get anything half as good as two Spec Bows in the chamber (Seriously who came up with this is it the person who put a heal on Hardened Ward? And how do I convince them Necromancers are cool?). RoA, Incap, double Spec Bow with a timed delayed burst is the new PvP meta get ready for everyone to become even more tanky or just become gankers.

I encountered the bug where I couldn't cast Blastbones quite a few times, but I could never figure out what caused it so nice to see that being fixed.

Grave Lord
The Skulls corpse clause being added to the base skill is a good change. I'm not a fan of having to slot skill B to activate the full tooltip of skill A. Especially when when only have 10 slots. Venom skull will still be a melee skill since the speed wasn't increased or it made to be an undodgeable skill.

Death Knell is a HUGE nerf if you play heavily into the class kit, but allows you to just run Blastbones and get a much better return now.

Reusable Parts: Anything that helps sustain is needed on a Necro

Dismember: This is a great change could swap my mundus stone out with this extra pen.

Bone Tyrant
Last Gasp is still meh. Funny enough I mentioned before that they could double it and it still wouldn't be good. Give it something else or make it percent based. Next to Maturation this it's still a weak passive, but now compared to Expert Summoner which was cut in half it might fall in line with what they want these sort of passives to hover around.

Health Avarice more healing ok

Empowering Grasp just take a portion of that 1000 damage enhancement and throw it on Skeletal Mage lol while we're at it make it a DoT like the Vengeance version. The magicka version does a shock DoT and stamina version Poison DoT and the minion either refreshes it or hits unaffected enemies nearby. The Major Maim doesn't make the skill worth it, too expensive still and no guarantee to cc. The entire skill has always been a frustrating mini game, but when the skill dealt damage and cc it was bloated enough to justify the risk.

Living Death
Curative Curse ok that's nice now remove the debuff from Resistant Flesh not that anyone is using that skill anymore.

Near-Death Experience why? Necromancers running around with too strong of heals putting Polar Wind to shame? or afraid Warden and Templar healers would become too strong with this passive?

Undead Confederate the one thing me and the Necro gang are always going on about is that we have too much recovery. We can't get rid of all this magicka and stamina fast enough! This is the most baffling change to me if anything this passive should've been doubled as well as Necro recovery is horrid, but at least it cements that Living Death is the skill tree to swap out.

Real. It sucks that after so many people cried out saying that necros needed buffs, ZOS gives us NERFS. It's enough to make a person literally physically sick.

Needed buffs:

My outstanding issues:

Redguards:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

These are some tweaks I would like to see made to the Redguards's passives. Hopefully, they will be seen as reasonable among the devs. They keep in mind the Redguards's reputation for endurance (stamina return) and discipline (reduced ability cost).
"The Redguards of Hammerfell are talented and athletic warriors, born to battle. A desert people, their ancestors migrated to Tamriel from the lost continent of Yokuda. Their culture is based on preserving ancient traditions and defying their harsh environment. They prize honor and dignity above all else, combining a deep reverence for the divine with a suspicion of all things magical. Their capital is the merchant port of Sentinel, but their roots are deep in the sands of the Alik'r Desert. In their youth, Redguards endure a rite of passage in the desolate wastes of Alik'r as a test of endurance and discipline. Only the strongest survive." https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Redguard

PASSIVES:

Wayfarer - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes.

*Martial Training - Reduces the stamina cost of your abilities by 6%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.
Redguards need help as a stamina sustain race. Reduced stamina cost across the board seems fitting.

Conditioning - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

*Adrenaline Rush - Increases your stamina recovery by 130. When you deal or take damage, you restore 248 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.
A big problem with the old version of this passive is that it was way too active, requiring you to spend resources to get resources back. It causes problems when you're not in a position to deal damage. No damage; no sustain. This change makes the "adrenaline rush" passive more "passive" and is still tied to being in combat. This also reinforces their reputation for endurance, "the ability to withstand hardship or adversity."

Necromancer:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

This is an updated version of my Necro ideas thread from 2023 (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/633137/suggestions-for-necromancer-changes) with adjustments accounting for the Update 43 patch notes.

Death Scythe: (both morphs)
Deals more damage based on the enemy's missing health.
- Hungry Scythe: should also apply life steal to all enemies hit, in addition to healing the caster over time.

Shocking Siphon: The AOE should remain on the ground even if the tether breaks early. (Increase the radius size too)
- Mystic Siphon: the increased Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery persists even if the tether breaks early.

Flame Skull:
- Riccochet Skull/Venom Skull: applies burning/poisoned status effects. (Increase travel speed)

Bone Totem: summons an effigy of bones up to 28 meters away. After 1 second, the totem begins fearing nearby enemies every 2 seconds, causing them to cower in place for 4 seconds. (Changed to allow both morphs to be targeted)

Restoring Tether: the effects persist on the player character even if the tether breaks early.

Grave Grasp:
- Empowering Grasp: Summon three patches of skeletal claws from the ground in front of you dealing 898 frost damage. Enemies in the first area are stunned for 3 seconds, immobilized in the second area for 4 seconds, and snared in the final area by 50% for 5 seconds. Each patch applies Minor Maim to enemies hit for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%. Each area applies Minor Maim to enemies, Empower to your allies, and enhances the damage and healing of your summons by 1000. Each effect lasts 10 seconds.

- Ghostly Embrace: Summon three patches of skeletal claws from the ground in front of you, dealing 1742 Frost Damage and an additional 1635 Frost Damage over 5 seconds. The initial hit applies the Chilled status effect. The final area creates a corpse if at least one enemy was hit.

Expunge: reduces the cost of all your abilities by 3% while slotted on either bar.

Bitter Harvest: when slotted on either bar, reduces your damage taken by 3%.

Boneyard increase the radius to 8 meters.

PASSIVES:
Corpse Consumption: When you consume a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds. You also gain Major Savagery and Prophecy for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629.

Undead Confederate: While you have a Sacrificial Bones, Skeletal Mage, or Spirit Mender active, your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200. You also gain Major Brutality and Sorcery for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%.

ULTIMATES:
Frozen Colossus: Unleash a decayed Flesh Colossus to pulverize enemies in the area. The Colossus smashes the ground three times over 3 seconds. Dealing damage applies Major Vulnerability to any enemy hit for 12 seconds.
- Glacial Colossus: does frost damage and stuns enemies on the second hit instead of the third.
- Pestilent Colossus: smashes the ground only once and does disease damage. Afflicts enemies with a pestilence that does damage over time.

Vampires:

These changes are very much needed. The suggested changes are in italics:

Rather than revert the changes to the Undeath passive, I believe it would be better to increase the power of Vampires (while being careful not to passively boost the power of the Nightblade class).

==========
PASSIVES
==========

Strike from the Shadows: When you leave Mist Form or activate Unnatural Movement your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.

=========
SKILLS
=========
:
Vampiric Drain: Siphon away your enemies' vitality, dealing 870 Magic Damage and healing you for 25% of your missing Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. Activating this ability grants you Major Protection and Major Berserk for 10 seconds.

Mesmerize: Subdue enemies in front of you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds if they are facing your direction. This stun cannot be blocked.
- Hypnosis: Subdue enemies around you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds. This stun cannot be blocked. Enemies are no longer required to be facing your direction.

Mist Form: Disperse into a dark mist, causing the next 3 projectiles to deal no damage to you for 1 second while you dash forward and reappear at your target location after a short duration. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka. Activating the skill removes snares and immobilizations.

Snare removal would make mist form a fantastic ability, instead of a frustrating one. It's really a no-brainer.

Blood Frenzy:
Allow your monstrous appetites to take hold, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 60 every 2 seconds, up to 5 times. While toggled on, the Health cost of this ability increases by 360 per stack and you cannot be healed by anyone but yourself, your pets, or your Companions. All damage you deal heals you for 1250 Health, up to once every 1 second.

========
SETS
========
Hopefully ZOS revisits all sets in the game and I have a few proposals for the vampire themed sets here:

Vampire Cloak:
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Adds 171 Weapon and Spell Damage. Removes the penalties of your Vampire stages.

I believe these changes will make this set worth choosing for vampire themed builds over sets that are stronger in general.

Vampire Lord:
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Increases the bonuses of your Vampire Stage, depending on how far you've progressed. Stage 1/2/3/4: 5%/10%/15%/20% reduced Vampire Ability cost.

Vampirism is already punishing enough already.

I want to add to the list of sets that I feel are connected to Vampires (or maybe specifically characters who are Vampire hunters).

Meridia's Blessed Armor:
(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(5 items) Gain Minor Protection at all times. When you Block, you gain Meridia's Blessed Armor for 5 seconds, causing you to dodge all incoming attacks. This effect can occur once every 25 seconds.

Considering the changes I'm proposing for Vampire's Cloak, I think adding the Minor Protection to Meridia's Blessed Armor makes it a suitable replacement. Minor Protection is easy to source but I think it fits the theme of this set being protective.

Stendarr's Embrace:
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) You take 10% less damage from undead enemies, Vampires, and Werewolves. When you heal yourself or an ally, you remove all negative effects from them. This effect can occur once every 30 seconds per target.

ESO_Nightingale · April 17

BasP wrote: »

Let me preface this by saying that I was looking forward to subclassing and actually like quite a few of the changes that have been made, such as the updates to the Aedric Spear and Assassination skill lines. That said, like many others, I do feel that some skill lines and abilities could still use another look.

Piercing Cold
While I really appreciate that this passive no longer relies on having under 30K Max Health, I find the new buff a bit underwhelming. Unless I'm missing something, there simply aren't enough strong Frost Damage skills in the game to justify building around this passive. Before seeing the patch notes, I was planning to keep the Winter's Embrace skill line on my Magden and maybe swap it out on my Stamden to make those builds more distinct from one another, but with Piercing Cold's current state falling behind so many other skill lines, it's hard to justify keeping it at all.

I believe someone suggested that Piercing Cold should increase both Frost and Bleed Damage by 10%, which I really like, both thematically and mechanically. It would still be weaker than the current generic 8% Damage Done buff on the live server, but at least it would synergize with more of the Warden's kit.

Another idea I thought was clever was having the passive increase Frost Damage by 10% and Critical Chance by 6%, which would make it beneficial for any player wanting to use this skill line on a different class. Crit Chance still fits the Frost theme in my opinion - after all, Minor Brittle increases Crit Damage and can be applied while wielding Frost Staffs.

Winter's Embrace as a whole
On that note, I'd still love to see Arctic Blast revert to healing on cast regardless of whether it hits an enemy. The conditional healing change continues to feel like a nerf aimed at PvP (though didn't actually effect PvP) that mostly hurt PvE builds.

It would also be nice if the skill line had more ways to deal Frost Damage. Someone suggested reworking one of the morphs of Frost Cloak into a damaging ability, which sounds great to me (and perhaps that morph could still give Major Resolve, similar to Hurricane). Or perhaps one of the Frozen Gate morphs could be converted into a 5-10 seconds DoT. Anything that gives the skill line a bit more offensive flexibility would help.

Animal Companions
I definitely appreciate the buff to the passives, but I think that skills like Dive and Growing Swarm could use a buff to make them worth using over other skills that Wardens have access to now.

I mean, the 400 Weapon and Spell Damage that Screaming Cliff Racer gives when you hit an off balance enemy used to be pretty good... but now, players can theoretically just slot Relentless Focus to gain up to 600 Weapon and Spell Damage (though I suppose activating that ability will be more beneficial in most cases). Hence, I think that the skill could use something more to make it worth using. As for the other morph, Cutting Dive, I feel like it could benefit from some sort of stacking mechanic to make it better when it's used as a spammable.

Grave Lord's Sacrifice
I find it a bit ironic that Necromancer players have asked for a rework of Grave Lord’s Sacrifice since its inception because it felt underwhelming. And now, suddenly, it seems like GLS may become meta... just not for pure Necros, but for builds using abilities like Fatecarver and Radiant Destruction.

I’m probably in the minority, but I still think a rework would be the better path. If it were turned into a DoT instead of just a self-buff that boosts DoT damage, for example, it could serve as a more approachable alternative to Blighted Blastbones while also helping balance strong skills like Fatecarver more cleanly.

if winter's embrace could use anything for its active skills right now it's some delayed burst damage skill that utilises our existing insanely high chilled proc rate to deal high burst damage. a reworked morph of frozen gate or frost cloak could do this. that's the last thing we desperately need that we lack. tentacular dread isn't going to fill that gap because its terrible and doesn't match the theme visually. and nothing else that is a "delayed burst damage skill" does frost damage.

Here is a rework i came up with quickly (editing eso skillbook html):

silky_soft · April 17

Battlespirit still has the free range buff. Either it's to solve a problem for all skills and all skills get it or it needs to go or it needs to be added to reach passive.

ZhuJiuyin · April 17

Dear @ZOS_Kevin ,considering the developers seem to have a serious lack of understanding of Sorc, here are the Top builds from the LChm log 1st boss.
The red circle is the Daedric Summoning skill, and the blue circle is all skills other than Dark Magic and Storm Calling.

Now tell me, how many damaging skills does Dark Magic and Storm Calling have? There are two skill lines, but they only provide Sorc with about 3 skills, which is only 3/12 of the slots.

The following is a more intuitive presentation. I have blacked out all skills that are not Dark Magic and Storm Calling.

Pretty impressively empty, right? The developers simply told us "Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole." As if Sorc could easily become a non-pet Sorc by just swapping the Daedric Summoning skill line.
NO! This is impossible, and there is not even a reasonable "trade-off" or "choice" because various wrong decisions in the past have made Daedric Summoning the only viable damage option for Sorc. Now you have to significantly buff the damage skills and passives of Dark Magic and Storm Calling to make non-pet Sorc accessible in the next Subclassing.

During this more than one month PTS cycle, at least the following things need to be done to prevent non-pet Sorc, or even pet Sorc, from dying completely due to Subclassing.

1. Adjust the damage of the three Sorc skill lines separately. For example, Daedric Summoning must emphasize the pet alone, rather than having Energized and Amplitude from Storm Calling to get enough damage.

2. Clarify the themes of the three skill lines. For example, Dark Magic emphasizes magical damage and debuffs, while Storm Calling emphasizes Physical and Shock Damage and buffs. This means that those skills with low usage rates must be greatly enhanced or remade, such as Suppression Field, Shattering Spines, Rune Prison, Daedric Mines, Boundless Storm, Endless Fury, Critical Surge, etc. For example, buffing Shattering Spines, removing Major Maim, and increasing its damage, and granting it a 10-second sticky dot and a 4-second delayed burst of direct damage, making it a qualified damage skill.

3. Improve the usefulness of passive abilities. Dark Magic's passive is really bad now and needs to be reworked, and the new changes to Daedric Summoning are meaningless. Furthermore, their passives are severely disconnected from, or even unrelated to, the Active Abilities of the skill line. For example, Dark Magic's passive, except for Exploitation, the others do not affect dps. Especially Persistence, it's just terrible.
Unholy Knowledge should be moved to Persistence and merged with it, and a new passive ability should be added to New Unholy Knowledge: When you deal damage with a Sorc class skill, increase the damage your target takes by 3/6% for 10 seconds. This effect will be triggered every 10 seconds.

I'm not against Subclassing, but if Sorc isn't completely reworked, then non-pet Sorc and even pet Sorc will completely die out in Subclassing.

In addition, the Sorc class sets that are almost forgotten by you, if they are strengthened, they may also provide some benefits to Sorc and allow them to survive in the next Subclassing. Like fixing Beacon of Oblivion's crappy 2-4 piece bonus, or boosting the damage of Monolith Storms.

Soundinfinite · April 17

Dragonknight 5% passive buff to flame damage + 6% flame debuff on enemies = 11% Buff to Flame Damage

Warden 10% buff to Frost Damage

Sorc 5% buff to Shock Damage

The DragonKnight and Warden's 11% to 10% is negligible and balanced, the buffs delivered in 2 different ways to give ample an ample boost to those damage types while engaging in element specific combat. Thus they are on par with each other.

Sorc is HALF as effective...shock damage automatically equals lower DPS out of the gate based on these Passives of the Classes alone.

Thus, a purley flame mage, or frost mage, will hit harder and have higher benchmarks.

And an Elementalist, will always want to favor one of those 2 damage types...leaving shock (And what the Sorc offers to an Elementalist) as the defacto weakest option.

This is even before we break down the effectiveness and what is offered in the lines themselves....

A Sorc and the gutting of non-pet perks of the class, mostly utility skill shock line, and weaker passive buffs to elemental effects makes it pale and underpowered and is the weakest link in an Elementalist or Lightning Mage build.

Shock damage in itself is underpowered compared to its 2 elemental counterparts...and needs a buff.

Fire is optimal DPS with raw skill options, buffs (Further buffed by sets like Behemoth) and the strongest elemental status effect.

Ice has a strong ground in being tanky with crowd control while offering better damage passive buffs in both the wardens raw frost damage buff as well as highetned status effect chance (250% more) and a raw buff to that status effect that can overpower even the Fire Burning effect.

Shock has non of this, with lowest raw buffs, weakest status effect, and a debuff that is on a built in game wide timer from all sources (Exploiter Off Balance) and a Sorc line that is underpowered.

ForumBully · April 17

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

madmufffin · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

ForumBully · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

madmufffin · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

ForumBully · April 17

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

There's so much potential for this system, it's a shame that people are clinging so tightly to the status quo. It's like they have no vision of what can happen in a classless world. Skills can be fun and unique, no class balance worries. Old skills could get their more interesting versions back. Remember when DK wings were amazing? When negates moved? When Blazing Shield could be made effective? So many changes happened because they upset class balance and everyone had the "why can't my class do that?" attitude. We can have fun skills that don't have to be on even power budgets with comparable skills in other lines.

Sorc legit will not be used in its current state. It's just categorically worse across the board.

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

It'll be used in PVP, but I don't see how any of the lines see action in PVE.

Maybe not at first, but if there isn't a use case for the skill lines than those lines can be adjusted later without fear of disrupting class balance

ZhuJiuyin · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

If you don't use all 3 Sorc skill lines in PVE, Sorc will be completely dead.
A large portion of Pet damage is based on the Storm Calling passive ability, and without Dark Magic, Sorc will lose its strongest single target skill and bonus critical. Due to various wrong decisions in the past, Sorc has become what it is today.
I've been testing it on the PTS for over 20 hours now, and I can say with certainty that Subclassing will kill Sorc completely if it's not a complete remake.

madmufffin · April 17

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

If you don't use all 3 Sorc skill lines in PVE, Sorc will be completely dead.
A large portion of Pet damage is based on the Storm Calling passive ability, and without Dark Magic, Sorc will lose its strongest single target skill and bonus critical. Due to various wrong decisions in the past, Sorc has become what it is today.
I've been testing it on the PTS for over 20 hours now, and I can say with certainty that Subclassing will kill Sorc completely if it's not a complete remake.

I've yet to see it slotted in a single build across all my Discords. I thought storm calling may get a few for the free passives, but people seem to just be using aedric spear for it instead. Sorc it just too intertwined and now ultimately just abd.

ForumBully · April 17

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

And yet Sorc skill lines will be. There don't have to be full Sorcs. I'm not going to judge a system where I can pick and choose class trees from anywhere based on what happens if I insist on using the three I'm used to

If you don't use all 3 Sorc skill lines in PVE, Sorc will be completely dead.
A large portion of Pet damage is based on the Storm Calling passive ability, and without Dark Magic, Sorc will lose its strongest single target skill and bonus critical. Due to various wrong decisions in the past, Sorc has become what it is today.
I've been testing it on the PTS for over 20 hours now, and I can say with certainty that Subclassing will kill Sorc completely if it's not a complete remake.

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

ZhuJiuyin · April 17

ForumBully wrote: »

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

This has nothing to do with any class identity or skill trees, this is just a matter of fact. All of Sorc's skill lines are not worth using in Subclassing, which will not only destroy a Class, but also the entire game ecosystem.
If people think today that it is okay for Sorc's entire skill line to be unused, then tomorrow when NB's skill line is nerfed to the ground, people will also think that since there is a precedent, NB's death should also be allowed. Which profession should die next? What will we be left with in the end?