Cardhwion wrote: »

I absolutely love that they lean more into the TES "no classes" vibe with this. It feels more like the other Elder Scrolls games.

And therein lies the issue. ESO is an MMO and not a single player TES game with a shared world even if you personally don't participate in the MMO aspects of the game. If you want a TES game with friends there's a mod where you can play Skryim with friends. This frankly feels like a bait and switch. We purchased a game that was an MMO and we like it and spent thousands of hours playing it. Now they're basically erasing classes - one of the foundations of an MMO making a combat team that was already incapable of balancing a class locked game balance a much more complicated class/subclass game. This won't end well and will be a repeat of the Morrowind patch or the U35 patch for end game players.

Cardhwion wrote: »

Because: - subclassing does not affect Trial/PVP groups, they can set up their skills for optimum effectiveness, and do their stuff just fine. They do not lose anything, with subclassing, they even gain the option to be a bit more varied in their team setups.

I'm curious what activities do you play in ESO? If a combination proves that it's the most effective any trial group going for vet HMs will run the meta or close to it to ensure success because we desire success and we respect our group members' time and effort. Being stubborn that you want to run a sub-optimal or solo set up will result in your spot in the raid group being filled by someone else unless you have Godly DPS/HPS numbers and the logs and performance to prove it. Ever since the Rockgrove trial came out trials have had a big difficulty increase at the veteran and veteran hard mode level.

Then there's the issue that if we have to multiclass you first have to have the skill lines unlocked on the other class - but then we need to rank up the skills again once we add them to our trial toon. So now even if you have the other classes maxed like I do we need grind skill progress to get them ready for raiding taking time and focus away.

Regarding PVP I've seen PVPers state that if you see a class you have an idea how to counter play. Now with subclasses you have no idea what they will do effectively preventing you from coming up with a counter. As a long time FPS enjoyer I can say that the inability counter play ruins the experience for one involved in PVP so I believe the PVPers when they say this is a bad thing for PVP.

Next we have the balance dilemma. PVP and PVE are NOT balanced separately like they should be so if a combo is perceived as OP in PVP it will be nerfed and PVE will suffer...and PVPers are very good at finding OP combos. We saw this happen with the radiating rejuvenation skill from the resto staff skill line (I'm a healer). RR was a staple for PVE healers but after it was nerfed due to PVP complaints it was replaced with echoing vigor as our main mobile AOE heal because RR was relegated to niche situations due to loss in effectiveness. This will happen on a much larger level since the combat team doesn't ever balance with scalpels, they just wreck skills and ignore the feedback and data that the PTS guys provide. But hey maybe this will finally get DK nerfed when everyone runs their skill lines and necro will somehow indirectly get buffed by a miracle from Akatosh.

I would be far less worried about this last point if ZoS said they will balance PVE and PVP separately when subclasses debuts. But they haven't said that so this is a moot point and something we must worry about.

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

[removed tag] Out of curiousity, do you PvP or raid in veteran trials?

I love this setup...get ready for the hammer

Here is the essay hammer!
But seriously, I just think it's very telling that the answer is "no". I mainly wanted to know which angle gets the point across better. I'm not an active raider, but I've dipped my toes in it enough to be aware that the raiding community actually took hits and had players quit. The raiding angle is more understandable to most people than the PvP angle of subclassing bringing us back into a tank meta, because for anyone who doesn't PvP, that's not going to be very intuitive how or why that is unfun and bad for the game.
The thing about subclassing is that people will indeed "be crazy" and that might be fun for a while, but when subclassing is making it easy for everyone to become extremely tanky, fights will last forever. PvP is fun when there is risk involved and it isn't 10 minutes of waiting for the person you are fighting to randomly get lag or experience a desync. That's just not fun. But if you haven't experienced that, I don't think you'll get it, because to PvE ears "not dying" sounds like a good thing. Corrosive Armor specifically will turn certain classes absolutely wild. DKs were also never meant to have Streak too. So how does ZOS plan on returning PvP into a playable state? Well by nerfing Streak and/or Corrosive Armor of course! Reframe the proposal of subclassing in your mind as "nerfing Streak and Corrosive Armor" and you'll understand why people are upset. And then PvErs will blame PvPers for these changes when it really was ZOS' idea of adding subclasses that made this necessary.

I can't go into as much detail on why this sucks for raiding because I can't give any current examples, but it's the same principle. DPS goes up, trial mechanics become skippable, ZOS nerfs PvE stuff, people get upset at nerfs - some classes might not be invited to raids anymore because they are unable to deliver the required damage/buffs.

I was fine with hybridization for the most part. Some changes, especially transitional stages, were just plain stupid, but we eventually got to a point where things were fine again - YEARS later. But classes are a bit more personal. I don't know any "dual wield mains" or "stamina mains", do you? I know plenty of Sorcerer mains though. If this change goes through as is, we are running the risk of certain classes being uninvited from trials again because they can only pick up 2 of the 3 requires dps skill lines or something. It might not get that extreme, but 10 years ago that's what raiding was actually like, so it's not like it's impossible either.

Implying that "people just want to complain" when this stuff is making people quit the game is very reductive. Sure, people are dramatic over a lot of things and many people who say they quit end up not quitting. But it does happen, and for every tank that quits, 11 other players don't get to raid. This stuff matters more than people realize.

Also try explaining to a new player what the class choice in character creation actually means. You'll sound like a crazy person, because it begs the question why classes are even still a thing. "Oh yeah, your class determines what your class mastery script does and also you'll be stuck with one of these three skill lines, but you can get rid of the other two and pick from the other classes."

Tl;dr: Subclassing is short term gain, for long term loss and ZOS has a terrible track record when it comes to getting massive changes right on the first try, which in ESO terms translates to "the next 6 months at least, the game will suck".

I am hoping for change but no dilution.

I think of SUBclassing of bringing minor skills to a class

It is not Multi Classing

Scribing seems like sub classing light

Subclassing seems to be taking the existing skill line and offering more flexibility.

Ie.
Healing Templar - more flex on heals - more people affected, greater healing done by expending more resources
Guardian Templar - defensive, Biting jabs increases armor or reduces damage of foe
Death Templar - heals do damage, higher dps
Diety Templar - the god your worship defines the skill

I do worry about there being only 1 class, and then the only difference is race.

However, I want to see this thru....and tweaked.

Just my 0.02 gold pieces

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

[removed tag] Out of curiousity, do you PvP or raid in veteran trials?

I love this setup...get ready for the hammer

Here is the essay hammer!
But seriously, I just think it's very telling that the answer is "no". I mainly wanted to know which angle gets the point across better. I'm not an active raider, but I've dipped my toes in it enough to be aware that the raiding community actually took hits and had players quit. The raiding angle is more understandable to most people than the PvP angle of subclassing bringing us back into a tank meta, because for anyone who doesn't PvP, that's not going to be very intuitive how or why that is unfun and bad for the game.
The thing about subclassing is that people will indeed "be crazy" and that might be fun for a while, but when subclassing is making it easy for everyone to become extremely tanky, fights will last forever. PvP is fun when there is risk involved and it isn't 10 minutes of waiting for the person you are fighting to randomly get lag or experience a desync. That's just not fun. But if you haven't experienced that, I don't think you'll get it, because to PvE ears "not dying" sounds like a good thing. Corrosive Armor specifically will turn certain classes absolutely wild. DKs were also never meant to have Streak too. So how does ZOS plan on returning PvP into a playable state? Well by nerfing Streak and/or Corrosive Armor of course! Reframe the proposal of subclassing in your mind as "nerfing Streak and Corrosive Armor" and you'll understand why people are upset. And then PvErs will blame PvPers for these changes when it really was ZOS' idea of adding subclasses that made this necessary.

I can't go into as much detail on why this sucks for raiding because I can't give any current examples, but it's the same principle. DPS goes up, trial mechanics become skippable, ZOS nerfs PvE stuff, people get upset at nerfs - some classes might not be invited to raids anymore because they are unable to deliver the required damage/buffs.

I was fine with hybridization for the most part. Some changes, especially transitional stages, were just plain stupid, but we eventually got to a point where things were fine again - YEARS later. But classes are a bit more personal. I don't know any "dual wield mains" or "stamina mains", do you? I know plenty of Sorcerer mains though. If this change goes through as is, we are running the risk of certain classes being uninvited from trials again because they can only pick up 2 of the 3 requires dps skill lines or something. It might not get that extreme, but 10 years ago that's what raiding was actually like, so it's not like it's impossible either.

Implying that "people just want to complain" when this stuff is making people quit the game is very reductive. Sure, people are dramatic over a lot of things and many people who say they quit end up not quitting. But it does happen, and for every tank that quits, 11 other players don't get to raid. This stuff matters more than people realize.

Also try explaining to a new player what the class choice in character creation actually means. You'll sound like a crazy person, because it begs the question why classes are even still a thing. "Oh yeah, your class determines what your class mastery script does and also you'll be stuck with one of these three skill lines, but you can get rid of the other two and pick from the other classes."

Tl;dr: Subclassing is short term gain, for long term loss and ZOS has a terrible track record when it comes to getting massive changes right on the first try, which in ESO terms translates to "the next 6 months at least, the game will suck".

Well my easy answer is neither. I played since launch and left a couple of years ago due to countless sacrifices in the altar of balance that never ever happened. Not for a single update. I almost exclusively Pvped, solo, zerg, ballgroup, small group, bombing, tanking, brawling, ganking, battlefields...some trials but I only when I need something out of them for PvP.
I've seen so many ideas nerfed and watered down before they ever got out of PTS because people worried about that balance that never actually existed. Or worried about homogeny, or everyone playing the same thing, or a set that would ruin everything or a nerf or a buff that would create total chaos and spell the end of the game.

None of those happened. Every single update has a meta that no everyone ran...in PvP and PvE. Every update had broken combos and not a single update ever had balance.

I'm not coming back for a continuation of that formula, that's for sure.

Well, I'm afraid balance won't be happening after subclassing is introduced either. We'll only get more pointless nerfs later and a return to having some abilities be completely dead again because another class' version is superior to both morphs thanks to subclassing. Only this time there won't be a passionate group of mains of that class anymore pushing for buffs, because their problem already has a solution.
Remember how excited people got during Elsweyr when abilities that were previously unusable suddenly became sidegrades to some of the best abilities in the game? This is doing the opposite.
The only scenario where that's not happening is if ZOS can magically create a decent state of balance for Update 46, and if they can do that with a crazy update like this, possibly the craziest we've ever had, then I'm really going to wonder why they weren't able to do that with hybridization changes or the many times when they rolled back the things that people were telling them were bad changes 3 months later. That doesn't sound like the ZOS we know.
Subclassing is a change for ESO2 in my opinion. It would have been fine if we had it 11 years ago. It would be fine if the entirety of combat got reworked along with it, but giving us only subclassing and making us wait for months if not years for the changes that would make subclassing fine 11 years into the game's life is not cool.

Agree with, I think, all of that. I don't expect balance, ever. I stopped expecting it around year...4 maybe. I expected from this update, a broken sets, nightblade buffs, 3% changes to things that don't matter or effect anyone except that the spreadsheet mandates it, and couple of chairs that were functional would be fixed. I expected existing sets that suck like RoA would be ignored again, I expected Templars jabs to still be horrible...and I expected maybe a companion that I wouldn't care about.
Some of that may still happen, but balance won't. At least the nerfs and buffs won't mean that, if I play again, I have to put a few of my toons on a shelf because they're worthless in everything.
What I hope happens is that subclasses launches exactly as it's been described. No watered down version, no half steps out of worry about upsetting the established and just plain boring and tired status quo.
I also hope Vengeance PvP ramps up quick. I don't want to come back for exactly what I left.

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

The biggest concern I have isn't about swapping out the skills themselves.

It's passives.


The dlc classes all follow the same design template:
1 skill line containing all the classes DPS skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes healing skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes tanking skills and passives.

I can see a lot of 1 role speciallised characters switching out to 3 trees that focus on just that 1 role.
If passives are included in the swap then thats a lotta power creep.

We got any solid info on how passives are handled?

Yes, in the post-reveal stream they said that passives are included and that they even interact with your other skills from other classes. As I understand it, passives that say "class abilities" will work on subclass abilities. The assumption being that skills that say "with an Aedric Spear ability" will continue to only work with skills from that skill line, unless ZOS also changes the wording on these.

Ruh-Roh.

*points at DK*
*Points at necromancer DoT passives*

As a Templar main, it's thrilling to see all the people drooling over the thought of [ab]using Radiant Oppression. It'll be so much fun to catch another nerf because of what people on other classes are doing with one of our class skills.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What you're showing in the pictures looks nothing like this

Was just a reference to how in Morrowind you basically selected some major and minor skills up front that effected how fast skills would level but you could learn/level anything through use once you started playing.

Dino-Jr wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What you're showing in the pictures looks nothing like this

Was just a reference to how in Morrowind you basically selected some major and minor skills up front that effected how fast skills would level but you could learn/level anything through use once you started playing.

I meant that choosing a few traits in the single-player TES games is nothing like choosing full skill lines with active, themed abilities. When people say it's close to the single-player TES experience, they're really far from the truth.

ModernSilver1 wrote: »

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Ruh-Roh.

*points at DK*
*Points at necromancer DoT passives*

Dear god. XD As a zenkosh DK, I might have to try that. Don't forget about the crit passive from the same skill line, imagine nightblade with that passive.

Now if only Zos can give us the old stalking blastbones back... Would mesh well with a DKmancer.

but new stalking blastbones and necro passive is free 25% more dps in arc and dk..

Renato90085 wrote: »

but new stalking blastbones and necro passive is free 25% more dps in arc and dk..

While I'd prefer not to call it "new stalking blastbones", you are correct. DK will probably benefit more from GLS than from stalking/blighted blastbones. DK and Arc will propably gain more from the skill than necro itself does. Could be wrong though, I don't touch GLS with a five meter pole, this'll probably be the update to change that.

A lot of these comments remind me of what was said when Scribing was first announced, but somehow we survived Scribing and I think we’ll survive Subclassing too.

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

A lot of these comments remind me of what was said when Scribing was first announced, but somehow we survived Scribing and I think we’ll survive Subclassing too.

I still have Scribing PTSD from the first day last year when I attempted to cross the "bugged" chasm on the last quest. I finished that and never once did I use scribing. I did make a lot of gold selling all my inks.

Love the entire questline but (as with spellcrafting in the other games), no use for scribing....

Every concern and worry can also be said about the current indefensible state of the game's metas.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Every concern and worry can also be said about the current indefensible state of the game's metas.

That's just not true. The current state of Corrosive Armor, as an example, is completely fine. It's strong, but fine. Subclassing will give Corrosive Armor to classes that can get a lot more mileage out of it, which will make it completely overpowered again. So it will get a big nerf (or ZOS will leave us in an unfun game state for months again).
That is just one example of many. This is not something that "can be said about the current state of the meta" and it'll be an unfair change to anyone who wants to be a DK purist.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean we might as well make things worse.

That's an interpretation. Another is that this change will finally put PvP on another path. One where skills are balanced rather than classes against each other. One where if a "class defining" skill is made useless there is an alternative to simply benching one or several characters that have been rendered inadequate or unplayable. One where class skills buffed beyond reason can be used by any class to level the playing field, at least as far as skill selection goes.
I don't think continuing unbalanced classes forever is an appealing road and I'm excited to see where changing directions can lead

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Every concern and worry can also be said about the current indefensible state of the game's metas.

That's just not true. The current state of Corrosive Armor, as an example, is completely fine. It's strong, but fine. Subclassing will give Corrosive Armor to classes that can get a lot more mileage out of it, which will make it completely overpowered again. So it will get a big nerf (or ZOS will leave us in an unfun game state for months again).
That is just one example of many. This is not something that "can be said about the current state of the meta" and it'll be an unfair change to anyone who wants to be a DK purist.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean we might as well make things worse.

That's an interpretation. Another is that this change will finally put PvP on another path. One where skills are balanced rather than classes against each other. One where if a "class defining" skill is made useless there is an alternative to simply benching one or several characters that have been rendered inadequate or unplayable. One where class skills buffed beyond reason can be used by any class to level the playing field, at least as far as skill selection goes.
I don't think continuing unbalanced classes forever is an appealing road and I'm excited to see where changing directions can lead

That's the thing. Because ZOS had to face the reality that having to "bench a character" is unacceptable, they were actually forced to make balance changes in the first place. Now if something isn't seeing much use, they can just lean back and ignore it, just like 90% of item sets in this game are getting ignored and how the majority of skills in the game were ignored before Elsweyr.

And again, just because every class has access to the same overpowered tool doesn't make things "okay". The Scalebreaker patch was in a fair state of balance, but it was also rather unfun because dots were so much more powerful than spammables. This is something that will have to be addressed, and that's what makes heavy nerfs inevitable.

We'll end up in a state were all skills will be very comparable. Especially skills that can "set up" a kill will take heavy nerfs, because those can be stacked from multiple classes to increase the kill potential. I'm willing to bet that Shalks, Curse and Blastbones will be turned into dots instead, so that they are "comparable" and "balanced". But that also makes combat as boring as it was in Scalebreaker. That is, assuming we aren't entering a tank meta due to Corrosive and whatever Warden skills will allow.

A lot of what you're describing is, in my opinion, where "class balance" has gotten us. I think class balancing has resulted in an atmosphere where developers are worried about disrupting spreadsheet numbers, and the result of that has been watered down boring single percentage point changes to skills.
Developers can't just take a single skill and make it do something fun because that will disrupt class balance. I hope subclassing puts an end to all that.

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Every concern and worry can also be said about the current indefensible state of the game's metas.

That's just not true. The current state of Corrosive Armor, as an example, is completely fine. It's strong, but fine. Subclassing will give Corrosive Armor to classes that can get a lot more mileage out of it, which will make it completely overpowered again. So it will get a big nerf (or ZOS will leave us in an unfun game state for months again).
That is just one example of many. This is not something that "can be said about the current state of the meta" and it'll be an unfair change to anyone who wants to be a DK purist.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because things are bad, doesn't mean we might as well make things worse.

That's an interpretation. Another is that this change will finally put PvP on another path. One where skills are balanced rather than classes against each other. One where if a "class defining" skill is made useless there is an alternative to simply benching one or several characters that have been rendered inadequate or unplayable. One where class skills buffed beyond reason can be used by any class to level the playing field, at least as far as skill selection goes.
I don't think continuing unbalanced classes forever is an appealing road and I'm excited to see where changing directions can lead

That's the thing. Because ZOS had to face the reality that having to "bench a character" is unacceptable, they were actually forced to make balance changes in the first place. Now if something isn't seeing much use, they can just lean back and ignore it, just like 90% of item sets in this game are getting ignored and how the majority of skills in the game were ignored before Elsweyr.

And again, just because every class has access to the same overpowered tool doesn't make things "okay". The Scalebreaker patch was in a fair state of balance, but it was also rather unfun because dots were so much more powerful than spammables. This is something that will have to be addressed, and that's what makes heavy nerfs inevitable.

We'll end up in a state were all skills will be very comparable. Especially skills that can "set up" a kill will take heavy nerfs, because those can be stacked from multiple classes to increase the kill potential. I'm willing to bet that Shalks, Curse and Blastbones will be turned into dots instead, so that they are "comparable" and "balanced". But that also makes combat as boring as it was in Scalebreaker. That is, assuming we aren't entering a tank meta due to Corrosive and whatever Warden skills will allow.

A lot of what you're describing is, in my opinion, where "class balance" has gotten us. I think class balancing has resulted in an atmosphere where developers are worried about disrupting spreadsheet numbers, and the result of that has been watered down boring single percentage point changes to skills.
Developers can't just take a single skill and make it do something fun because that will disrupt class balance. I hope subclassing puts an end to all that.

Yeah, but that's because of the insistence of having spreadsheet numbers in the first place. What you are describing is bringing back a state where crazy, fun and unique abilities are balanced by the opportunity cost of running them. One of the only remaining opportunity costs we have are morphs. Nightblade Cloak has the opportunity cost attached that the strong self heal of the other morph will be unavailable if you choose the invisibility and vice versa. That's why the Nightblades that go invisible aren't as tough as the Nightblades that aren't. It's a trade-off. There used to be more trade-offs, like the choice of being stamina or magicka. Now ZOS is lowering the trade-offs of choosing a particular class and that will make spreadsheets more important, not less. ZOS homogenized skills so they could implement hybridization. Vigor is as strong on magicka characters now as on stamina character. Soon we'll see them homogenize everything even more as a result of "skills being balanced" rather than classes.