How are we feeling about Subclassing?

Bobargus · April 12

Other: There shouldn't have been classes in the first place. All spells should individually be usable at the same time.

I say no to class identity and limitations. Let us learn and use everything at the same time.

ChaoticWings3 · April 12

Good: Lets players play how they want to play and reduces the amount of class locked features that could make or break certain builds.

Bad: Pvp side is a bit worrying since I can think of a couple of a couple of class combinations and passives that would make battles really not fun.

Thysbe · April 12

Still need time to get accustomed to the idea and I am convinced this is U35 all over again, dooming ESO to be more of a fancy social / RP game and nothing to be taken serious on a MMO PVE endgame perspective. But fine, there are other games that already cover that way better than ESO and there is not much left after the u35 exodus anyways.

So it might not even be a bad outcome having a clearer vision than balancing those 2 player groups.

It´s a chance I can play my main char (NB DD) in a Dungeon Trifecta grp, maybe even raid again since I am an average/decent player but not good enough to bridge the immense gap between low performing NB and easy cleave Arcanist. I wished for doing that with playing my class and not borrowing OP skill lines, but well it´s time to lay the hope for class balancing to a rest since classes are gone.

Don´t really see why they introduce artificial barriers to the concept like take only one, can´t use class sets.... does that really make any difference? Why not open the possibility to combine skill lines the way you want and leave the old classes as templates you might use but dont really have any relevance.

Pixiepumpkin · April 12

There is no arguing this point, sub-classes will decimate/destroy/erradicate class identity which for many of us is a MASSIVE part/appeal of the game. I already hate weapon skill lines and their requirments for back bar buffing.

The second you see a templar shooting the green jesus beam 2.0 it's going to ruin all forms of immersion.

The more I think about sub classes, the more idiotic I think the concept is.

Ohh well, wow has housing coming out at the end of the year, I might have to get my housing fixes there. At least they have identifiable classes.

The fact is, this is all an illusion of choice. In order to get into any meaningful vet trail or vet dungeon (where you actually get rewards) we will all be force to run FOTM cheese build. This happens now, but at least there is some semblance of class identity.

Tinkerhorn · April 12

It's always been a discussion that comes up here and there about whether ESO is more MMO or more like the mainline ES games and I think for the most part the devs have walked an awkward tightrope fairly effectively between the two, contrary to all the criticisms I could make.
This is a move which hugely knocks out part of the MMO side of the game and will bring with it all kinds of problems.
If it was to change one skill line then perhaps it would be a lot more digestable but two is genuinely revolutionary for the game and imo not in a good way but then I'm approaching the game as an MMO not a RPG sandbox. Also it's not really a sub class system either, it's a pick'n'mix class system. If youre 1/3 Templar a 2/3rds other classes then you're not really a templar. Being a templar will simply be an arbitrary limitation placed on you at character select and nothing more.
Further by the nature of what is being put forward balancing cannot be done in a class by class approach which'll further decimate class identity.
The game also will be more inaccessible ad the grind will be hugely increased to get the acceptable builds. Honestly I am not even sure where to scratch at the surface of the amount of problems this will create.
Though the people I play with are mostly of like mind and interested in the same activities, so far I would say there's about a 75% which see this as the end of the game for them. Unlike U35 where there was an atmosphere of big push back and annoyance I would say the atmosphere now is just one of solemn defeat and waiting to see. I think, myself included that I will stick around to see how it turns out with low expectations but hoping I am being a doomer, and a preparedness to walk away from the game. I'm certainly not waiting a year to watch classes get gutted, a more limiting and stale homogenous meta take hold, and hard hitting balance changes to attempt to put the cat back in the bag.

AvalonRanger · April 12

How are we feeling about Subclassing?

I'm tired of power inflation game. Please no more "building competition" contents.
Have we just been playing "bullet sponge game" through this 10years for the 100K damage?

I have extremely negative impression against this direction.

It's time to rethink "common sense of ESO".

According to current group contents (2023-2025 dungeon and trial), dev team
did great effort to make nonsense bullet sponge combat more natural exciting battle.
I have quite positive impression for that. But bring back dark-age again !? No thanks.

ForumBully · April 12

The game should have launched this way. Everyone would have called it the better class system if it were what they are used to. How does it make any sense that a mage of any kind can only learn one particular kind of magic? It seems as though "class" is genetic and were biologically incapable of understanding frost magic if we're born fire mages. That's nuts.
This makes for more complexity for theory crafters, and more fun. Sure some things will be out of balance, as always, but going forward if ZoS needs to make a change the change isn't targeting a class, but a skill. No more "Necromancer got buffed" (said no one in a long time) but instead only a skill that everyone could access got better.

exoib · April 12

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm genuinely worried. Players may equate this to being more like the The Elder Scrolls series was originally built to be. But fail to realize that The Elder Scrolls series was a single player game, and the mechanics from single player games doesn't translate well to multiplayer group focused games.

This is the only comment in all subclassing threads which HAS a point.

DeadlySerious · April 12

I'm not understanding the need for subclassing. So now every class is the same and no reason to even choose a class when creating a toon?

Cooperharley · April 12

More build freedom? Sounds amazing.

Cambion2401 · April 12

I'm super hyped. I only play solo PvE and I'm super excited to go mix and match. It makes sense from a roleplay perspective too. Why would my evil powerhungry mage limit itself to necromancy only, but refuse to summon daedra?

GW1 had the option to have 2 classes, and having odd combos was great. Being a ranger x necromancer was awesome. TES by nature isn't a class locked franchise, but a yolo do whatever one (as the original Arena manual so greatly explains, altrough that is technically about storylines. But it's the same vibe.). I understood that not working in an MMO the same way it does in single player games, but I'm excited we get it in a way.

That being said, I can imagine for PvE players it might get troublesome due to balancing issues. But for me personally, I can't wait! And on the other hand, me with my casual PvE characters already die in no time when I get into PvP. It's not even fun to try. So people min/max'ing is already an issue there without subclasses.

Also, regarding skills colours. I don't think this is an thing that comes from subclasses, altrough it may be amplifying it. For example: I play by the rule of cool. My skills all match in looks. My arcanist uses green, and so I avoided weapon abilities simply because they don't match. My basic attacks not being green already bothers me, so I hope on a future option there too. Once those skill colours got in the game, I went out of my way to unlock green magelight because now it can match. And I don't even really use the skill 😅.

Ratzkifal · April 12

Cardhwion wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

I just hope it's limited to one bonus skill line, otherwise why even have classes. What the hell are people talking about classless being closer to traditional TES? Every single TES game had classes until Skyrim.

ESO should not have classes to begin with, it simply does not fit with the Elder Scrolls vibe overall. Classes were a pandering to the traditional MMO trope, nothing more.

As for all the people whimpering about the "META": As far as I can see it, no one is hindering you, to work out the optimum setup for Trials and PVP and run with that. The rest of us can play as we like, it does not impact you.

Cardhwion wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the fuss and fearmongering is for. It's a great direction for the game, even if there will be a few bugs and needs for balance adjustments.

I'm hyped for it!

You know we were accused of "fearmongering" when we raised issues about U35 and we were proven correct at every turn. Historically ZoS has proven that they can't balance this game, heck the combat team prattled on ad nauseum about their "combat vision" but was wholly unable to articulate just what that vision was to the point where they canceled the U35 townhall that they came up with to address the concerns when it became apparent that we wanted actual answers and not just marketing speak thrown at us. But now we're expected to accept that this same combat team will be able to balance a much more complicated multi-class version of the game despite their repeated failures in this very area?

It is fearmongering. The majority of players does not even participate in high end group activities were the META will be seriously affected. So why should the Devs tailor stuff to a small percentage of the playerbase?

Cardhwion wrote: »

I have been thinking about all that was said here, and sadly my conclusion is, that there fearmongerers are the people who want to tell others how they "should" play the game.

Because: - subclassing does not affect Trial/PVP groups, they can set up their skills for optimum effectiveness, and do their stuff just fine. They do not lose anything, with subclassing, they even gain the option to be a bit more varied in their team setups.

There is some irony in here.
Firstly, "the rest of us" cannot play as we like in PvP, because even if you do not wish to participate in chasing the meta, you are still being subjected to it by other players who do, which forces you to compete with it regardless. It's a similar situation in raiding in PvE, because this change will cause a dps increase, which inevitably results in nerfs - these nerfs will hit you even if you didn't participate in chasing the meta. How will people who did not chase the meta cope with those nerfs? By being forced into following the new meta. So it does impact everyone in one way or another. The same thing already happened with hybrids. People were saying "you don't have to be hybrid to compete", until the nerfs hit and now everyone kind of has to be hybrid to some degree.
Secondly, I think it's funny you'd say that it's only a small percentage of the playerbase that cares about the meta, why should the minority get to dictate. Well, simply because the argument works the otherway around too. If most people don't care what the meta is, why does the meta need to be changed to cater toward them? Hot take: Matters concerning the meta should only take the opinions of players concerned with the meta into account. Does that sound unfair to you? If yes, why? I thought the meta doesn't matter to you. Furthermore, following your logic, if the minority opinion does not matter, because it's the minority, should content for the minority not exist? We could remove trials, PvP, tales of tribute and housing from the game. Probably veteran dungeons too, certainly the hardmodes. All of these individually are "just the minority", so why should their opinions matter? Why should there be content made for them if their opinions don't matter? And yet here you are, saying that things should be done the way YOU prefer it, the opinion of others be damned, they are just "fearmongering" and none of their concerns are valid, (despite previous precedents to these same concerns being validated time and time again to the detriment of the raiding and PvP playerbase).

What do people lose if subclassing is being added you ask? Build diversity. The paradox of choice we experience in this game, or really in any comparable ecosystem, is that introducing more options leads to less diversity, because one will end up being definitively better than the other. And where it previously didn't matter if a Necromancer dealt less damage than an Arcanist, because the group needed the Necromancer's debuffs, next patch perhaps Arcanist with Necro subclass will average 20k dps more than the Necro with Arcanist subclass while having access to the same debuff. In this example, before, both the Necro mains and Arcanist mains were happy. Next patch one of them will be unhappy. Are you going to be the one to tell those Necro mains to suck it up because they are the minority? I hope so, because that is what you are arguing for.

Ultimately, this is an MMO. We are all playing this game. People are entitled to their opinion and we need to be respectful of others, including but not limited to PvPers, raiders and roleplayers. If someone thinks the opinions of others don't matter, then that someone should be playing singleplayer games instead.

DenverRalphy · April 12

I just started contemplating which weapon skills will still be slotted that don't have a better alternative should you have access to all class skills. Aside from passives, I don't know that weapon skills lines will be important for anything beyond those passives and resource/ult generation.

Thinking on it even more, guild skills will likely lose prominence as well.

Dunno how I feel about that.

Ryori729 · April 12

Can we quit calling it subclassing and call it what it is. Character soup. Changing out 2/3rds of a class isn’t subclassing. Not saying the plan is good or bad, just the what they are calling it doesn’t make sense.

Personally I think it sounds like they gave up on balance and just said screw it. “Let’s jump as many sharks as we can in one year.”

kevkj · April 12

I'm pretty neutral about where the 'meta' is going because I don't have a clue.

What I'm not looking forward to is how it won't "Just Work TM" as evidenced by the months of toil it apparently required for them to 'rework' necromancer (Have they changed the name of the pet from Stalking Blastbones yet?) and this thread about all the inconsistent interactions between skills/passives, pets and visions/verses. And now they want to let you summon blastbones while also having the Daedric Summoning skill line?

Castagere · April 12

So we have to level up twice as long with any skill line we switch from one class to another, right? They all start as rank 1, right?

Jestir · April 12

Castagere wrote: »

So we have to level up twice as long with any skill line we switch from one class to another, right? They all start as rank 1, right?

I believe maxed lines are account wide by the way of achievements but if you don't that then yes they start at rank 1

DeadlySerious · April 12

Very, very, very skeptical. ZOS has fumbled the ball with most of their major changes like this. I'm worried.

Maximus_Mordred · April 12

This will be the final nail in the coffin for build diversity in endgame content. Prepare for greenbeam 100-35, jesus beam 35-0 , elder beams online

ADarklore · April 12

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

Castagere · April 12

Jestir wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

So we have to level up twice as long with any skill line we switch from one class to another, right? They all start as rank 1, right?

I believe maxed lines are account wide by the way of achievements but if you don't that then yes they start at rank 1

So, do your maxed-out skills and morphs go to the new class?

Dino-Jr · April 12

Hyped. Reminds me of this:

Only thing I am concerned about is seeing to many 'flying sorc pets' in towns.

Evil_Rurouni · April 12

The biggest concern I have isn't about swapping out the skills themselves.

It's passives.

The dlc classes all follow the same design template:
1 skill line containing all the classes DPS skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes healing skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes tanking skills and passives.

I can see a lot of 1 role speciallised characters switching out to 3 trees that focus on just that 1 role.
If passives are included in the swap then thats a lotta power creep.

We got any solid info on how passives are handled?

Ratzkifal · April 13

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

The biggest concern I have isn't about swapping out the skills themselves.

It's passives.

The dlc classes all follow the same design template:
1 skill line containing all the classes DPS skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes healing skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes tanking skills and passives.

I can see a lot of 1 role speciallised characters switching out to 3 trees that focus on just that 1 role.
If passives are included in the swap then thats a lotta power creep.

We got any solid info on how passives are handled?

Yes, in the post-reveal stream they said that passives are included and that they even interact with your other skills from other classes. As I understand it, passives that say "class abilities" will work on subclass abilities. The assumption being that skills that say "with an Aedric Spear ability" will continue to only work with skills from that skill line, unless ZOS also changes the wording on these.

ForumBully · April 13

ADarklore wrote: »

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

This will be the 50th time ZOS has killed build diversity, balance and class identity, and they have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Ratzkifal · April 13

ADarklore wrote: »

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

@ADarklore Out of curiousity, do you PvP or raid in veteran trials?

ForumBully · April 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I find it interesting that the same complaint, same argument, same fears come up each and every time any change takes place in ESO. Mainly "oh no, the meta is going to change" or "build diversity will suffer". Well, build diversity has suffered for years, and people will always follow the FOTM BiS no matter what. So IMO, there is really nothing changing... the same people that complain about build diversity are usually the same ones chasing the BiS FOTM builds. I am beginning to believe they complain just to complain; they say they hate it, yet they do it.

I think perhaps ZOS has realized that they are never going to please all the people, which is about time, and have decided to just let players have fun, be crazy. It's honestly what brought Diablo IV back from the dead, to just let players create wild builds and stop worrying about balance and limiting players 'fun'.

@ADarklore Out of curiousity, do you PvP or raid in veteran trials?

I love this setup...get ready for the hammer

AvalonRanger · April 13

10 years form 2014. Still clinging "my building is ultimate!" game?
Oh boy....No thanks for "subclass" idea.

Don't escalate power inflation game anymore seriously.
Character based game easily expire contents resource, and become just stupid
damage boasting.

Imagine this.

<Situation-A>
The gunship try to kill your team. It has tremendous amount of health.
You need to shoot much thousand of bullet and rocket launcher.
So you need to build super canon character build and target dummy technique
for the 100K damage. (This mindset is usual in the 80's pixel retro game.)
Basically, this type of game is called "bullet sponge game", and it's a typical image of
"boring game" in today.

<Situation-B>
The gunship try to kill your team. You need to hit RPG rocket "only 3 times", but
you and your team must survive though harsh machinegun rain and rocket attack from above.
Use level structure and multiple evading gimmick for surviving. "Only 3 times", but
without excellent maneuver and good team work, you can't do even just one single hit.
This type of game needs excellent level design and more complex environment based game
structure, and it's not depend on only character building.

If the game has situation-B quality, then there're no difference between 24K and 100K damage.

Is CP400 player really weak? I don't think so, just can't fill up basic champion buff.
It doesn't mean inferior player. I've seen CP over 1500 teammate made "lonely tank"
at the "normal mode" last boss of Exiled Redoubt so many times. They just couldn't survive
within 30 second. And almost zero damage work.

The game design is same as cooking. Importance is "relative value parameter",
NOT absolute parameter. If dev team put wrong amount of ratio of spice in the
cooked meal, then game become just too much sour. Major people reject such a
bullet sponge combat game in 2025. It's a idea of 80's, but we're living 2025 now.
Consider it. Please stop power inflation game.

Player want good "tension and exciting moment", but not redundancy, not unreasonable.

Come on ZOS, you just change direction of ESO by latest group dungeon and trial.
I felt very positive impression from those "change". Why you want to make the game
back to the dark age again? Because Mannimarco coming back? (LoL)

Evil_Rurouni · April 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

The biggest concern I have isn't about swapping out the skills themselves.

It's passives.

The dlc classes all follow the same design template:
1 skill line containing all the classes DPS skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes healing skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes tanking skills and passives.

I can see a lot of 1 role speciallised characters switching out to 3 trees that focus on just that 1 role.
If passives are included in the swap then thats a lotta power creep.

We got any solid info on how passives are handled?

Yes, in the post-reveal stream they said that passives are included and that they even interact with your other skills from other classes. As I understand it, passives that say "class abilities" will work on subclass abilities. The assumption being that skills that say "with an Aedric Spear ability" will continue to only work with skills from that skill line, unless ZOS also changes the wording on these.

Ruh-Roh.

*points at DK*
*Points at necromancer DoT passives*

ForumBully · April 13

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

The biggest concern I have isn't about swapping out the skills themselves.

It's passives.

The dlc classes all follow the same design template:
1 skill line containing all the classes DPS skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes healing skills and passives.
1 skill line containing all the classes tanking skills and passives.

I can see a lot of 1 role speciallised characters switching out to 3 trees that focus on just that 1 role.
If passives are included in the swap then thats a lotta power creep.

We got any solid info on how passives are handled?

Yes, in the post-reveal stream they said that passives are included and that they even interact with your other skills from other classes. As I understand it, passives that say "class abilities" will work on subclass abilities. The assumption being that skills that say "with an Aedric Spear ability" will continue to only work with skills from that skill line, unless ZOS also changes the wording on these.

Ruh-Roh.

*points at DK*
*Points at necromancer DoT passives*

Lots of ruh rohs...but you can also point at some pretty effective class counters that used to be exclusive. And that's the fun being added.
Certainly more fun than another in a long line of sets that will destroy our delicate balance