How are we feeling about Subclassing?

amig186 · April 11

I just hope it's limited to one bonus skill line, otherwise why even have classes. What the hell are people talking about classless being closer to traditional TES? Every single TES game had classes until Skyrim.

Zodiarkslayer · April 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Worried about balance. Really worried.

Sure, it'd be fun for overland and RP, and I'm totally gonna set up some of my alts with skills that would make sense according to their lore. But nobody cares about balance in overland or in a normal.

But vet content? PvP? When competition is involved, then balance needs to as well. And ESO has not historically been great on that front...

Seriously, there are already so many "people aren't letting me bring my heavy attack build into trials!" threads. We really expect that this is going to make people admit more? "Play as you want" is a great thought... so long at the other 11 people in the group also think that. But if the group wants to be meta, then they're gonna be really exclusionary if you're not.

It was the same with hybridization - the idea (good) was that you could slot any skills without having to worry that some were not powerful because it was mag instead of stam. What happened? Every Class then got the "objectively better option" and the "I'm nerfing myself" option - so why would you take the worse one unless you were nerfing yourself? RP? Sure, try to explain to a group lead that you can't pull your weight in the group because it doesn't fit with your RP.
Now think of that, but homogenizing all the classes.

That will also make PvE less diverse as well. A lot of current groups like to bring a Templar because of their excellent execute power. Now if everyone can do that, why do we need a primary Templar when that slot could be another Arcanist with banner and Class Mastery? Why have healers if all the DPS can just run Matriarchs? Why have two tanks if one can just be in Magma 100% of the time and just not take damage ever? And then, all those support slots you don't need anymore can go to more DPS!

Also PvP - you thought the Polar Wind spamming Wardens was bad, now wait for them to also be able to cast Magma on cooldown to restore their resources as well. Or just wait for the gankblade bombers who can use Mages Wrath to get a second explosion out of Rush of Agony and then streak away unscathed. I guess it's a good thing people want a meta shift, because it's coming.

Finally, the thing that disappoints me most is that I really really want a new Class. I've been dreaming of a Dwemer Artificer for ages now, but this system makes it look like we'll never get a new Class again. After all, now instead of being balanced against 7 other Classes, it'd be three lines balanced against each other and 21 other lines individually.

Arcanist's release was some of the most fun I've had with this game. I love the new character setup process and getting to play with new skills and how they interact. Now, my options are to... make another version of a character I already have, until I finish the levelling to get them enough skill points to... make them into a hybrid of other characters because nobody has their own identity anymore. That's super depressing actually.

Imagine - we're at a state where literally the only Class identity we have anymore is the fashion of the Class set. "Sure you can use all the other skills from another class, but don't you dare wear a facemask! That's for OG NBs only!"

Ah c'mon. That is such a selective dooms day view on the matter! Have a little faith in the devs. Do you really think they do not know that?

Will subclasses have impact on PvE combat balance? For sure. But it is a good thing! Because the META has been the same for at least 2 years. The same OP sets on the same OP classes. And at least 3 classes have been pidgenholed tightly into a specific role or they can bugger off.

And I won't elaborate on PvP, because I don't want to play the current PvP.
But why is it a bad thing to get away from the current PvP META?
You get nothing to do because there are only unkillable trolls, giant ball groups or only 5 other players on the entire map? And that is not even considering the abysmal performance.
PvP atm is so incredibly frustrating and just a big time killer, because the so called rewards are just not rewarding.
How can you even want to keep that?

Btw., Vengeance showed the way PvP should be in this game. Fast, engaging, big battles with no performance issues ... And think about how much better Vengeance could be, if you factor in subclasses?

Toanis · April 11

amig186 wrote: »

I just hope it's limited to one bonus skill line, otherwise why even have classes. What the hell are people talking about classless being closer to traditional TES? Every single TES game had classes until Skyrim.

It's not a bonus, but an replacement. You can swap one or two class skill lines for skill lines from other classes, but can take only one skill line from each additional class. So only a Necro can have Bone Tyrant + Grave Lord + Shadow, while the combination of Storm Calling + Ardent Flame + Winter's Embrace is available to DK, Sorcerer and Warden.

Also, only Arena had classes with fixed abilities, from Daggerfall forward, the class choice mainly determined the skills you have an easier time excelling in. (In Daggerfall it was actually advantageous to have primary skills you barely used, since once a primary skill was trained to 100, everything else was capped at 95)

Taraezor · April 11

It is tempting to say that everyone will build a character the same.

If that was true then players would be doing that right now. If anything, the massive extent of hybridisation means that it will take forever to min/max the perfect build and before we're halfway analysing combinations, the next patch will be out and we'll have to start again lol.

It will however destroy class identity. The skills that solely define a class will no longer solely define that class. That's very disappointing.

But it will add to the fun.I wanna build a zoo keeper. That will now be possible in ESO! I'll also do a build with one or two main pet tanks and with myself focused on support/heals. For soloing content of course - I'm a solo player. Fun times ahead.

As most of my builds are solo and they mostly use non-class skills (stamina builds do use class shields/heals on the back bar) then I won't really be impacted much, except for any novelty builds I'll try on new characters.

In terms of PvP where my understanding is in Cyrodiil we will get most of our skills washed away and graphically neutered, not sure how that will work. I don't do PvP so I'm all about surviving a sudden burst and escaping - love to do that in Cyrodiil. The more they chase me the more I know I won the battle lol.

amig186 · April 11

Toanis wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

I just hope it's limited to one bonus skill line, otherwise why even have classes. What the hell are people talking about classless being closer to traditional TES? Every single TES game had classes until Skyrim.

It's not a bonus, but an replacement. You can swap one or two class skill lines for skill lines from other classes, but can take only one skill line from each additional class. So only a Necro can have Bone Tyrant + Grave Lord + Shadow, while the combination of Storm Calling + Ardent Flame + Winter's Embrace is available to DK, Sorcerer and Warden.

I don't like that at all. Imo you should be able to combine no more than 2 classes, otherwise it'll be like everyone is saying, there'll be one top combination that everyone will use. There won't even be a point in having more than one character.

Also, only Arena had classes with fixed abilities, from Daggerfall forward, the class choice mainly determined the skills you have an easier time excelling in. (In Daggerfall it was actually advantageous to have primary skills you barely used, since once a primary skill was trained to 100, everything else was capped at 95)

Yeah but that's some metagaming, not how they were meant to be played. It's near impossible to do anything in the early game in Daggerfall and Morrowind with non-class skills unless, in the latter case, you know about Creeper and exploit him to be able to spend thousands on training.

Major_Mangle · April 11

From a PvP perspective there is another aspect to subclasses that makes counterplay a nightmare. In the current environment I somewhat know what to expect when going up against certain classes. What damage combos to expect, defensive nature of certain classes and what their strengths/weaknesses are etc etc. You basically use previous knowledge/experience and semi "predict" what can occur.

With subclasses this "prediction game" becomes more or less impossible due to the amount of variations there can be. Also can't wait for all the cheating allegations from players saying how a class is using another classes skills, will be entertaining for the first month or so lol.

licenturion · April 11

I really like it. I made some alts in the past during 2XP events to feel how each class felt but I never wanted to commit because I want to play with my 1 main character that I want to complete all the content with.

So this new feature is amazing. Also the fact that the class skill line progress is now going to be account wide is super great.

I am now levelling those alts their few skill lines that are not yet 50 during the event so when subclassing launches I have everything ready and unlocked on my account for my main and all the alts can be stripped and be mules for banking space.

moo_2021 · April 11

Castagere wrote: »

I just want to know how the abilities will work. Will a character with all his points in stamina be able to really use magic skills from other classes? Magic runs out really quickly if zero points in it.

bi-recovery drinks

frogthroat · April 11

Of course we need to see it in action, so before PTS I don't have any concrete opinion on this.

But my preliminary thoughts:

DnD enjoyers: multiclass is here, rejoice!

Role players: more options, rejoice!

PVE: I'm afraid this might lead to one class with one subclass combination being the meta and it narrows down the meta from the current few options to one.

PVP: can't wait to see the crazy, game breaking things PVP players come up with.

GloatingSwine · April 11

I think the worst of its impact will be the behaviour of (not-as-good-as-they-think) players when they meet people who are running the "wrong" skill lines.

My hope is they put in some itemisation that supports interesting cross-classing so it's not just "do the same thing as before, except take one skill line for some buffs your class didn't get".

olsborg · April 11

PvP balance, woops.

Arthtur · April 11

I mean im really worried because i remember how it went with U35.
Like, sustain will become infinite because ppl will be able to take more sustain passives. So there is a good chance ZOS will nerf sustain making pure classes miserable. Just how pure stamina/magicka have bassicaly no sustain right now.
Tanks will have no diversity at all. They will have access (and will be expected to) to all good buffs and debuffs from all classes. And they self healing will be a lot better too.
Healers? Well nobody will need Warden now for Major Resolve and Minor Toughness, because every class will have access to it. Diversity huh. Well unless tanks run it anyway resulting in healers having nothing to provide.
I rly expect pure classes to suffer for all sins of subclassing.

And PvP... just the thought of how busted ball groups will become, invisible DK bombers and NB gankers with corrosive... yeah im not touching that. And thats just the tip of an iceberg.

kind_hero · April 11

Tariq9898 wrote: »

I’m completely torn.

My biggest worries are class identity and balance.

What if a certain combination proves to be so effective that they end up nerfing both of the classes? Like potentially the pairing of Templar and Arcanist.

Because knowing ZOS’s pattern, they’ll just nerf the Templar and Arcanist to where their combo isn’t as broken. Which could lead to playing solely just the Templar or Arcanist not as effective as it used to be.

That said though, the roleplaying aspect is limitless. This may be why ZOS added skill colors few months back. Just imagine, pairing the blue fires of DK with the Necro to create a seamless identity of the “death knight.”

Or the red skill colors of Necro with Nightblade to create a death assassin.

Why are you worried about two things that were never specific to the Elder Scrolls games?
1) Classes - ES games started with some generic templates created around the story you chose for your character, less in the latest iterations. So, there were no classes. ESO changed this mantra, forcing players into certain classes that never really felt like classes, as in other RPG games (Diablo comes to mind, or DnD), since you can use so many generic guild/weapon abilities.
2) balance - ES games always had some sort of powercreep, and were famous for their cheese builds. It is certainly something we don't want in a MMO, but all MMOs have this issue, some classes being very strong after a patch until a fix/nerf.

In my case, subclassing makes me happy because of the possibilities I get for my solo or casual play with friends. For this, when none will question my builds and choices, I will have lots of fun with my 10+ year old main and other old and retired characters. Paired with scribing, one can never get bored of combinations.

However, I am sure there will be a lot of problems in PvP and dungeons, especially veteran and trials. Probably, PvP will be the most frustrating. My hope is to have a different PvP game, more in the line of the Vengeance campaign approach, with given builds, where people can focus more on objectives, and game play, instead of finding ways to cheese the system, or abuse proc sets etc. I haven't had so much fun with the Vengeance campaign since the early days of ESO, when such epic battles were possible.

Ah, and regarding class identity. Even if this is a classles universe (Elder Scrolls), what I miss is to really have the option to make a class I want, for example, a true martial warrior, with as little "magicky" abilities as possible. Right now, most martial abilities are too similar with spells. But who knows what scribing will bring.

licenturion · April 11

olsborg wrote: »

PvP balance, woops.

Seeing how excited they where in the second stream about the results and engagement of Vengeance I think this will be the road they are on.

I see them doing something like Hearthstone did (the card game) and also other games do sometimes:

- Vengeance 2.0: the competitive curated PvP experience where everything is balanced and with some restrictions and performance concerns. They will balance around this mode and will rotate sets and skills on a seasonal basis to keep things fresh and shift the meta.

- Arcade / Wild mode: the same as today 'anything goes mode' but with all the issues as well and that is not the main focus for balance

We will see how it goes. I was 100 percent right in all my predictions about the season pass and dungeons. Lets see how this post will age. lol

Icy_Waffles · April 11

I’m not happy about it. I have 16 characters and I like what makes them unique- I feel like now what’s the point of having maybe 4-5.

I personally may just retire- it’s been an interesting 10 years but I like the diversity of the characters. I was hoping for MORE classes-

I get the appeal, makes it more like an Elder Scrolls game having more options but being a MMORPG it will make it so all roles have a clearly defined class/subclass for each role, with less classes needed:

For me it makes the characters I’ve invested in feel like a waste- now everyone can basically do everything in a way- just not my personal preference

ganzaeso · April 11

I think it has promise. There are concerns I have about PvP.

I think they should modify the application of it slightly to how Thrones and Liberty currently does it.

In essence they would decouple class from the character's creation and make it adaptive to what skill lines are used together.

For example if someone chose the skill lines Ardent Flame, Shadow, Curative Runeforms their class identity would change to something like Shadow Dragon Rune Mage.

It will definitely get extremely confusing considering the possible combinations are 7 classes x 3 Skill Lines

ForumBully · April 11

I haven't played for over a year and here I am looking into it....so I guess I'm a little excited.

ThoraxtheDark · April 11

Yet another thing that should of have been implemented much earlier in this games life. Like scribing and companions and jewelry crafting.

I personally think it's too late. I'm very indifferent and will most likely not play beyond June

tohopka_eso · April 11

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I am hyped about subclassing, the furnishing vault, and optional overland difficulty. The subclassing is going to make the game feel much more Elder Scrolls, I think. And I really look forward to being add things to my characters. I'm actually going to level my abandoned Necro to 50 out of anticipation of this. Subclassing is one of the things that I think is going to keep me in this game despite my unhappiness about the price increase.

I'm looking forward to it also. Not only will it feel more like Elder Scrolls game but being an old DND player will give me ideas to my own builds now.
Oh, and can't wait for the furnishing vault.
(You should know my stance on overland from the thread 😌)

As for the whole class identity issue, I can tell it might worry some. I didn't mind the class lock in but I tried to approach ESO as an elder scrolls game and not a MMO which is were IMHO is people might get stuck in the identity part. But, I'm just speculating on it.
Yes, I was against class change tokens but was hoping this would happen instead.

Thysbe · April 11

It´s a clever move - erase class identity and get rid of beeing bothered with class balancing in all the game modes.

Given the experience with such major change in the past - the PTS feedback about tuning and broken combos will not be considered to keep announced deadlines. Resulting in an immense power creep since the community finds out about combos devs didn´t have the chance to evaluate.

I might take a few days off during U46 launch and get a load of trifectas others worked months and years for a low skill/low effort basis before the nerf hammer hits.

It might be time ESO decides if their vision is offering interesting and competitive group content or beeing a social plattform RP game focused on cosmetics and creating your own disco ball set up.

huskandhunger · April 11

I didn't think I would be, but I am actually excited about subclassing because certain skill lines on my templar have long felt lack luster and now I can augment my character for a more roleplay specific feel in any way I would like so I think it's more true to the Elder Scrolls play as you want philosophy. It sounds fun ☺️

huskandhunger · April 11

I also feel it can free up ZoS to do something super cool in the future. They could begin to release interchangeable class-type skill lines you can swap in to your base character to further enhance it thematically. I actually think this is the beginning of something really amazing for ZOS and the players.

tohopka_eso · April 11

That's how I felt with my Warden. I have something like 5 wardens I kept trying something but felt like it was missing.

Muizer · April 11

So what is this going to mean for something like shield stacking? Will be interesting to see on PTS. But something like that alone could be game breaking it seems to me.

SilverBride · April 11

This is basically a class change token without being a class change token.

darvaria · April 11

Just something else that will further break the game. More lag for Cyro, more combat bugs, more imbalance. Thankfully, I play so little now days it will not affect me.

Reginald_leBlem · April 11

Deeply concerned that "balance" will just be a heavy nerf hammer to the best skills on each class until they are completely watered down

DenverRalphy · April 11

SilverBride wrote: »

This is basically a class change token without being a class change token.

They pretty much said just that in the livestream.

Estin · April 11

I think it's a terrible idea. I wasn't given any confidence in the idea when the developer on the stream didn't sound confident when explaining how it will be enabled in PvP and how they'll be keeping a close eye on it. It's like they know it's going to be a bad decision but are still going through with it anyway because the character fantasy playerbase will enjoy it.

It doesn't matter if there's 1000s of possible combinations. It was the same case with scribing, but only about 10 combos have been used since its release. There's only going to be a small handful of setups figured out within the first week and it's not going to change until skills are nerfed. Class will mean nothing since everyone will be using the same 3 skill lines. And then for anyone who is a class purist, they're going become really upset when their skills are nerfed just because it's over powered when combined with other class skill lines. I can already see radiant oppression getting nerfed to 200% because it's too strong when paired with necro passives. What about the purists who aren't using necro passives? You just gutted them and they are now forced to use them to get back any sense of power back to it.

Sandboxy elements are fine in overland where balance doesn't matter, but sandboxy elements have no place where gameplay and balance matters. I'm really against the play how you want mantra being used to overstep boundaries when it was never meant to do so. It leads to so many contradictions.

Ragnarok0130 · April 11

randconfig wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the fuss and fearmongering is for. It's a great direction for the game, even if there will be a few bugs and needs for balance adjustments.

I'm hyped for it!

You know we were accused of "fearmongering" when we raised issues about U35 and we were proven correct at every turn. Historically ZoS has proven that they can't balance this game, heck the combat team prattled on ad nauseum about their "combat vision" but was wholly unable to articulate just what that vision was to the point where they canceled the U35 townhall that they came up with to address the concerns when it became apparent that we wanted actual answers and not just marketing speak thrown at us. But now we're expected to accept that this same combat team will be able to balance a much more complicated multi-class version of the game despite their repeated failures in this very area?