Subclasses Will Lead to a Homogenous Game as Evidenced by Hybridization

ForumBully · April 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

1000% Only this time it'll be due to character skills instead of some stupid set everyone has to farm

You will still need the right sets and mythics to unlock a builds potential. Probabaly farm all over again if you want to have a themed build doing halfway decent damage. Like buff your zoo or get something decent out of your 10 elementalist DOT´s.

Sure, but my point was this change isn't more disruptive to balance than the nonstop flow of sets has been. There's always disruption and a meta always emerges. The difference here is that there will not be sets that favor a particular class anymore. There will not be skill changes that only effect a particular class anymore. This is better for balance, and I hope leads to more interesting skill changes in the future now that its a game of balancing skills rather than balancing classes against each other

That’s a fair point, but I’m not convinced this system will be better for balance. In theory, it sounds promising: balance the skills themselves rather than juggle class kits. But in practice, that assumes ZOS will consistently tune individual skills and interactions with surgical precision. That has not always been the case.

And while it’s true that sets often disrupt balance, subclassing introduces a new layer of complexity. Now, every potent passive or active in a formerly isolated tree becomes part of a vast mixing pool. That is not just a new meta forming; it is several metas collapsing into one dominant pattern. Saying “there won’t be class-specific skill changes anymore” might sound freeing, but it also means power outliers become game-wide problems instead of class-specific ones.

I think creating game wide problems rather than class specific problems IS better for balance overall. So many changes I've seen over the years have made one class dominant or another class pointless for months on end. I think the possibility of a homogenous best build overall in any area is an improvement over a homogenous best build overall that can only be achieved on one class....which is what we've lived with so far.

the1andonlyskwex · April 12

ForumBully wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

The problem is ZoSs original class system. They personified skills trees as classes as though learning a skill is engrained in DNA. A Sorc can't crack a book about necromancy?
Going forward this means that a change to any skill is a change to every player, not just nerfing or buffing a class, but a change to a skill that anyone can access.

Agreed. The current model feels like a design at odds with itself. On one hand, ESO wants to offer flexibility and build freedom. On the other, it still clings to rigid class boundaries that don’t align with the spirit of Elder Scrolls.

Subclassing feels like a correction, but it also exposes the awkwardness of the original system: if class skills are now universally accessible, then were they ever really about identity? And if they were, can identity survive once that exclusivity is gone? Either way, the contradiction was always baked in.

It kind of puts class identity on a spectrum...if you want to be pure DK be pure DK, but you don't have to be. Maybe you want to be a DK who is also interested dark magic. Be that
Saying that a meta will emerge isn't a reason not to do it, that'll always happen, but when a skill needs to have a change it's no longer empowering or weakening just one class. I think this skill tree system as opposed to locked class system allows for better balancing.
How many toons of mine been benched because their class sucks for several updates? No more of that

The problem isn't that a new meta will emerge. It's that the new meta is going to be way more powerful than the old meta, while non-meta builds won't gain any power at all. More choices just result in more overpowered combinations. Other MMOs have tried skill systems like this, and the end result is a balance nightmare, where there are either a small number of builds that are 3x more powerful than anything else (picture 300k DPS, so a current off-meta 80k DPS build will truly be nonviable, instead of just nonpreferable) or all skills get nerfed/homogenized to the point where there aren't any interesting synergies between skills to exploit (which also tends to make all builds feel the same).

I like the idea of having more builds to play with, but my expectation is that most of them won't be viable in comparison to the best few. I predict that there will be some combination of two subclass skill lines that every PvE DD basically has to slot in order to achieve even remotely competitive DPS, with the third skill line depending on original class and having a relatively small impact on performance. In other words, it will just be a supercharged version of the healer meta, where 8/12 skills are currently non-class skills and classes have relatively little impact on how builds play.

Koshka · April 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Perhaps in the score pushing/trifecta trial groups but those are always pretty homogenous. The rest of the game is going open a lot, I think. I think that's especially true if Overland's incoming difficulty ends up being really good. People will have a reason to actually build unique characters. It should be fun.

I don't know about that. Casual players have their own "meta" these days and many people just seem to use the same Oakensoul setup. Nothing against it, but it's not very different from using the same trial setups. It's just that casual players prioritize accessibility and those who do trial hms prioritize performance.

Joy_Division · April 12

If there were any doubt that I had about Vengeance, this announcement basically sealed the deal for me in that Vengeance is the only way I'll PvP and have fun in the game.

Cyrodiil is a mess precisely because ZOS allowed players too much power creep, too many broken combinations, and removed many of the restrictions/weaknesses that are needed so players don;t run around with do everything builds. Subclassing will also work far easier for some classes who don't have core mechanics spread out over their three lines (Arcanist, for example, have to manage Crux generation).

And we all know what will happen the update after once meta PvE and PvP builds emerge: ZOS is going to take the biggest nerfhammer they've ever wielded and come down and utterly smash certain class/skills that are perfectly fine on their own and ruin the experience of players who just want to play a single class. Rich Lambert claims they are fine with some power entering into the game (see above point), but ZOS has spent the past decades giving us updates that are just a list of nerfs, it's how they roll. They are not going to change their ways. In fact, I bet this Monday's PTS are full of nerfs in anticipation of subclasses, preempting players from making the most obvious broken combinations.

ForumBully · April 12

Joy_Division wrote: »

If there were any doubt that I had about Vengeance, this announcement basically sealed the deal for me in that Vengeance is the only way I'll PvP and have fun in the game.

Cyrodiil is a mess precisely because ZOS allowed players too much power creep, too many broken combinations, and removed many of the restrictions/weaknesses that are needed so players don;t run around with do everything builds. Subclassing will also work far easier for some classes who don't have core mechanics spread out over their three lines (Arcanist, for example, have to manage Crux generation).

And we all know what will happen the update after once meta PvE and PvP builds emerge: ZOS is going to take the biggest nerfhammer they've ever wielded and come down and utterly smash certain class/skills that are perfectly fine on their own and ruin the experience of players who just want to play a single class. Rich Lambert claims they are fine with some power entering into the game (see above point), but ZOS has spent the past decades giving us updates that are just a list of nerfs, it's how they roll. They are not going to change their ways. In fact, I bet this Monday's PTS are full of nerfs in anticipation of subclasses, preempting players from making the most obvious broken combinations.

Subclasses will be much more fun in no proc, and even better in a Vengeance-like environment. But that's because the proc sets are ridiculous.

xylena_lazarow · April 12

I'd much prefer power creep be delivered to the buttons I press, rather than the sets I wear.

zombievalen · April 12

I hope we see varied rosters now.

zombievalen · April 12

Stamicka wrote: »

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1

Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

It was necessary, this sucks:

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS

Reginald_leBlem · April 12

I would love to be excited about this, but I suspect Zos is going to "balance" sub classing the way they balance everything..... with huge sweeping nerfs. Rather than go through and make sure EVERY class has competitive strengths on at least 2 skill lines, they are going to nerf arcanist and templar beams into the ground, and then work on the other classes. I'm doing 0 theorycrafting until week 3 of PTS.

Pixiepumpkin · April 12

zombievalen wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1

Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

It was necessary, this sucks:

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS

How do stamina arcanists overperforming lead to the necessity of hybridization?

alpha_synuclein · April 12

zombievalen wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Hybridization was first proposed as a way to shake up the game and allow more build customization than ever. We all know how this turned out. The number of classes got cut in half and the game became more homogenous than ever. In PvP for example, most builds have vigor, ice staff, and dual wield. There's not much build diversity at this point.

I'm not going to get into why I think hybridization was bad for the game, but I've made posts about the topic before:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655483/hybridization-ruined-every-aspect-of-the-game-for-me/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/624313/core-combat-values-the-flaws-of-play-as-you-want/p1

Long story short, hybridization removed the need to compromise which actually leads to less build diversity. For example if Vigor (easily the best HoT) can be slotted and effective on every PvP build, why wouldn't you slot it? It's clearly the best option. The same thing will happen with subclasses. Some remnants of the original game are still in place, so some classes are better in some areas where others aren't. Nightblade has much better burst than a DK for example. I would choose the Nightblades Assassination skill line for my damage skill line on pretty much any class. Warden and Templar have great healing skill lines, so why wouldn't I choose those? I can also fill in some gaps (like the need for a good burst heal) with Scribing.

Hybridization also caused some serious balance issues. Pre-hybridization it wasn't possible to combine Vigor with a spammable burst heal and a secondary Magicka scaling HoT. You either used Vigor and had to wait for your burst heal through Rally, or use a Magicka build with a weaker HoT than Vigor, but a spammable burst heal like Honor the Dead. With hybridization you just use all 3 heals which increases time to kill. Hybridization also made running both Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor possible, which we clearly see is a major problem with ballgroups.

This change will basically cut the number of classes down from 7 (which is already down from 14) to 1 or 2. More customization leads to less build diversity, not more. The need for compromise is what creates new playstyles.

The ball is already rolling with this, but I'm disappointed to see that no lessons were learned from the impact that Hybridization had on the game.

It was necessary, this sucks:

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS

The only thing that will change is instead of seeing arcas and plars we will see half-arcas/half-plars.

Pixiepumpkin · April 12

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

I would love to be excited about this, but I suspect Zos is going to "balance" sub classing the way they balance everything..... with huge sweeping nerfs. Rather than go through and make sure EVERY class has competitive strengths on at least 2 skill lines, they are going to nerf arcanist and templar beams into the ground, and then work on the other classes. I'm doing 0 theorycrafting until week 3 of PTS.

And the worst part is, as they have done in the past, they will nerf a part of the class that affects both stamina and magica (like arcanists). Magicka arcanist was middle of the road back when they nerfed the arcanist class. The nerf affected magicka (which did not need a nerf, if anything a buff).

If I have no faith in the team to balance classes, it does not come out of any form of animosity but rather experinces, observation and collected data chances based on their decisions.

Cooperharley · April 12

Stx wrote: »

This is the classic MMO vs Elder Scrolls debate.

Changes like scribing, hybridization, and subclassing are excellent for players who want a traditional elder scrolls experience and who just want to play casual content and make fun builds and themed characters.

For MMO players mainly interested in endgame, changes like this reduce build variety because performance is what matters most.

In my opinion, subclassing is going to make the game more fun and honestly this game should never have had classes in the first place. As you yourself mentioned, there already isn’t much build diversity at the top of the ladders, so might as well let everyone else have fun.

This is literally exactly what ive been saying to everyone as well. Kudos. All my friends in game feel this way too. META will be META regardless of what happens and not a lot of people at the tip top care about much else other than performance. This change is for pretty much everyone else

Cooperharley · April 12

Juju_beans wrote: »

Realistically there should be no more "fake" tanks or healers then.

But we know that won't happen, even with subclassing

Yea that's not changing. Until they no longer give you the freedom (somehow) to choose any role despite the armor youre wearing, your weapon and what you really are playing as, that's not going to change lol

Gaebriel0410 · April 12

Vaqual wrote: »

It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

This hits the nail on the head perfectly imo, I have seen this a lot.

I agree with quite a few of the things you wrote.
The heavy RPG aspect of ESO is what makes it fun for many, and preferring to pursue that instead of the theorethical "best" seems often associated with a lack of skill or understanding of how the game works.

Opening up the build / player choices with subclasses is the best thing they could have done, and I am completely 100% sold on it.

DeadlySerious · April 12

Why? Who thought of this subclassing system?

Are classes even going to be a thing going forward or is this the lead up to a vengeance version of PvE?

Cooperharley · April 12

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Why? Who thought of this subclassing system?

Are classes even going to be a thing going forward or is this the lead up to a vengeance version of PvE?

A bit hyperbolic.

You still maintain a core class and can have between 1 and 3 of the original skill lines. Im personally pretty excited for it.

Stamicka · April 12

Seems like all the people who like this change are the “anti meta” types, we all know them. I can see how this change would be appealing to those who don’t really engage with PvP or endgame vet content. I guess that’s the vast majority though.

I’m hoping your new builds will make you all feel very special and unique.

I’m no longer interested in what this year has to offer for ESO though.

Cooperharley · April 12

Stamicka wrote: »

Seems like all the people who like this change are the “anti meta” types, we all know them. I can see how this change would be appealing to those who don’t really engage with PvP or endgame vet content. I guess that’s the vast majority though.

I’m hoping your new builds will make you all feel very special and unique.

I’m no longer interested in what this year has to offer for ESO though.

I enjoy the META for veteran content, but for solo content I don't mind experimenting around with different playstyles for fun. I think this does just that. Definitely step away and play a new game for a while and come back when you feel like it. Good to take a break anyways

Stamicka · April 12

Cooperharley wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Seems like all the people who like this change are the “anti meta” types, we all know them. I can see how this change would be appealing to those who don’t really engage with PvP or endgame vet content. I guess that’s the vast majority though.

I’m hoping your new builds will make you all feel very special and unique.

I’m no longer interested in what this year has to offer for ESO though.

I enjoy the META for veteran content, but for solo content I don't mind experimenting around with different playstyles for fun. I think this does just that. Definitely step away and play a new game for a while and come back when you feel like it. Good to take a break anyways

I’ve essentially been on a break for 3 years. I don’t like the game very much as is and don’t play very often anymore. I thought ZOS would finally be headed in the right direction with trying to get population caps back up in Cyrodiil and all of that. As of now there’s still some occasional fun to be had on the game, but changes like the subclass system basically ruin what little there is left. It’s disappointing but expected after a very steady downward trajectory for 8 years.

Lags · April 12

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

ForumBully · April 12

Stamicka wrote: »

Seems like all the people who like this change are the “anti meta” types, we all know them. I can see how this change would be appealing to those who don’t really engage with PvP or endgame vet content. I guess that’s the vast majority though.

I’m hoping your new builds will make you all feel very special and unique.

I’m no longer interested in what this year has to offer for ESO though.

Pvped since launch and left a a couple years ago because it's stale as @#$& waiting for the next broken sets to farm.
I might come back because this change is actually interesting.

ADarklore · April 12

People have been begging for a class change token for years so they can chase the FOTM, and now they're given even better options, and they're complaining about build diversity. I think people just love to complain and fear monger no matter what ZOS does. Personally, I'm SUPER excited for subclassing... now I can create my OWN class and play how I want to play.

Vaqual · April 12

Lags wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

People are scared that there will be few high performing outlier builds, when we literally already have that?

We don't want the problem to get worse than it already is... This change will make the balance much worse, that's kind of the point of this thread. I'm acknowledging that hybridization has put the game in a rough spot and this change will make it worse.

I simply do not agree with this. I personally feel that the overall direction of combat changes has steadily improved the gameplay. What has been and is making PvP miserable for years are constant massive outlier performances and design flaws that are pretty much obvious to anyone who is playing the game. I can imagine what horror scenarious you are picturing, but personally, I find them preferable to what we have. This will provide a good basis for doing away with the weird class-wide power budgeting and looking at abilities in a fair and direct manner.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

It takes only a grain of mathematical understanding to be able to predict where the problems are going to lie and it will be just as easy to fix these problems in sensible ways.*

Oh? Where are these problems going to lie and what "easy" fixes do you propose?

I posted two examples under the asterisk. I don't think this is the right thread to expand on this. The fundamental logic for these fixes has to be those class specific stack&burst, delayed burst and stat multipliers that carry the current power budget for the existing classes, are becoming in some way mutually exclusive. I.e. it should be fine for a Sorc to use Spec Bow, but a Spec Bow + Bound Armaments burst must not be possible, etc. This can be achieved by attaching a named tag to the existing stacks, so that the ability usage wipes all such stacks at once. Or in the example with the delayed burst: A "trauma"-like debuff could prevent excessive stacking of such abilities and the resulting mega combos. These abilities would still be usable and combinable with the generic kit, but not amongst each other. Of course heal/mitigation/sustain/ulti-gen synergies contribute to more optimized builds, but they will not immediately affect the maximum damage burst potential. And for the cases like Catalyst + Transfer + Corrosive: Is the synergy the issue or Corrosive? Just make Corrosive more expensive when used on a subclass. Small penalties based on subclassing should be possible and can use the same identfier that class sets use to discriminate usage.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Only because we have extra restrictions now we don't automatically have better PvP.

But extra restrictions do result in better PvP. The game was in a better place when people couldn't stack radiating regeneration with echoing vigor. So much of what is wrong with PvP today couldn't have existed in the past due to the fact that the game used to limit what you could do with your builds. You can run any combination of weapons you want, slot any skill, wear and combine any sets in any weight, and dump as many points in health as you want. The current state of ballgroups are the best example of where such few restrictions on builds gets us.

No, disagree again. From my perspective, all classes impose (in parts) flavour and gameplay that I find in some way undesirable for build A, but then maybe highly appropriate for build B. The ability to swap out these elements without crippling myself is most welcome to me. Regarding the stacking of heals, I agree. This is one fundamental design flaw. But this has very little to do with whats to come. It is a consequence of hybridisation, but at the same time it would be trivially easy to fix, if there was a will to do so (can't make a statement regarding the performance impact of the possible fixes). Conflating the "tank meta" (among the only valid countermeasures to "one shot metas") and ball groups in general is pretty much derailing the conversation. Subclasses or not, if a player insists on running 4-5 heals, that is already possible. There was nothing inherently great about the pre-hybridisation PvP and the issues those times were plagued by just aren't so prevalent in peoples minds.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

"Bro, don't go to the buffet, the a la carte menu has way more cost effective meals. They all come with disgusting sides, but I have lowered my expectations enough to accept them".

I truly have no idea what you're trying to say with this example. Both buffets and a la carte menus tend to have a lot of choices... and since when did a la carte stuff come with sides? What's going on here?

Not all choices are equal.
Basically a metaphor to illustrate the point above. There are significant parts of the class kits that I straight up do not like for some of characters. One example: I strongly dislike the NB Assassination line for one of my characters for multiple reasons. Have you tried balancing a good NB build without utilizing anything from that line? It is a near crippling hit to the overall performance of such a build. But it isn't enough reason to reroll, as I very much like the rest of the kit for that character. Having the option to swap out this skill line is nothing but a blessing for me. I can enjoy the aspects of the class that I like on any given character and complement them appropriately.
So if I am stuck between choosing "Steak with dry rice" or "Cardboard with french fries", I'd be glad to try out the buffet and get the things that I actually want without leaving half of my plate empty.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Why worry about the Meta? Why worry about what other players think?
Take pride in winning with non-Meta builds. Make your skill count. Ignore the try-hards or make it your mission to wreck them. At least you can access now, more than ever, the tools necessary to deal with the stuff that annoys you most - or the abilities that you envy the most. And that without re-rolling the FotM.

Everyone will have the tools to be whatever they want... including the min maxers. You're still going to lose to people who utilize the tools better. When you give people the ability to customize their builds more, it's the min maxers who will get the most out of it. This stuff won't benefit the people you think it will benefit, it's the opposite actually.

Yes, but still only 3 skill lines with 5 abilities each. I am not afraid of the minmaxers, there is no arcane knowledge that they have that I won't have. I can read, test and equip everything they can - if I want to. If they play better, so be it. If they are willing to abuse all available cheese, so be it. Do you think I am concerned with the well being of the meek and downtrodden? Then you are misunderstanding me. This is not a plea to be lifted up. For me it is immersion and roleplay-coherence first, PvP second. The feelings of other players aren't really on my bucket list. I am convinced that anyone can do well in any meta, but the immersion is only good if the immersion is actually good. You can win in any game, but the game has to be worth your while.
It is really a common fallacy that I see here, that rejection of the meta is always associated with a lack of ambition or ability.

Stamicka wrote: »

More customization leads to the power gaps, knowledge gaps, and lack of build diversity that so many people have a problem with. All those things will get worse. The new PvPers will lose worse than they ever have, the new PvErs will be further behind in damage than ever. This stuff isn't good for the game and we have seen it time and time again.

Knowledge gaps are fine, leaves room for players to explore and grow. Being a slave to the meta or ones own desire to beat any stranger in a 10 year old video game is something that feels entirely foreign to me. Making the effort to use the available resources to improve and staying true to ones own RPG experience are two things that everyone has to balance for themselves. Everyone can reach a point where they can make an informed decison as to what they value more. Players who can't find out how to play a video game successfully in this day and age simply didn't bother and certainly do not deserve to have a game trivialized to meet their needs. Players who choose not to engage with certain cookie cutter strategies can make this choice consciously and be at peace with the performance they are getting out of their setups. The gold standard would be if performance and RPG experience go hand in hand, and this is something that this update is promising, simply by merit of the current RPG experience being bad. And honestly, players who can't handle the ability texts are copying builds now and they will be copying builds then. The realistic differences for meta setups between classes are already not really worth mentioning.

The most glaring power gaps will have to be adressed, but again, that is why I provided the examples. Most power spikes will come from stat stacking and burst combo expansion in conunction with wide access to high performing unvoidable CCs. It is self evident which passives and actives will be affected and it isn't really a big deal to come up with a fair ruleset that dampens the impact of these new combinations without harming the basegame experience (examples above). If ZOS delivers on that remains to be seen, but even if not, I still prefer that reality to what we have currently. It may be a subjective thing, but to me, the current classes in ESO are pretty much the worst thing the game has to offer - and this update promises to alleviate 90 % of my current gripes with all classes at once. This is such a profound improvement, that I am already entirely sold on the concept.

If you think the combat changes they have made over the last few years have been good then you have not been paying attention. Or you're playing a different game. Combat feels more clunky and slower than ever. And if you like that then fine but thats not why most people, who play eso for the combat, play the game. Animation cancel changes were terrible. Cast times on ults were terrible. Changing certain animations was poorly received. Now combat feels worse than it ever has when dealing with lag/delay.

Many combat changes in update 35 were terrible, and chased away countless veteran players from the game. Dot time changes have been absolutely terrible for the game. The amount of damage that zos has done to this game, in their crusade to dumb down everything, has been immeasurable. This is supposed to be an mmorpg, not skyrim online. The direction was good for the first few years, the okay for the next few, and then awful. And while not every bad change was a combat change, most combat changes were bad.

Even the hybrid changes were bad for the overall health of the game. This sub class thing wouldnt be as bad if hybrid wasnt a thing, but it would still be very sketchy. Many things used to have more meaning in this game, class identity being one of them. But hybrid killed that. Why play a stam dk or a stam nb, or whatever, when you can simply have no restriction on what skills you use, and just use what is best for mag or stam in one.

They want to make more everyone, especially casual players, but every way they do it destroys balance. The stupid sets theyve added in over the years. Hybrid changes. And now this. Im sorry but how can you trust a company that has refused to make good balance changes in the past? A company that has let things in cyrodiil deteriorate to such an abysmal level, when all they had to do was address a few glaring balance issues? Yes performance has always been the biggest issue, but if they addressed healing, or ball groups, maybe cyro wouldnt be in such a terrible place.

Maybe now things will improve a bit since they are seemingly going to balance cyrodiil a bit separate from the rest of the game. Which is something they should have been doing for years. But im sorry, to say zos has made good combat changes is just not true. And this game has suffered for it. An mmorpg does not thrive on a revolving door of causals. Maybe they can make money but the game suffers for it. And unfortunately zos has never understood that, and here we are. The game feels like a shell of its former self in game, on social media, on the forums, and in general. And their target audience is none the wiser. Until the time comes when they want to do more than quest or RP, then maybe they see it.

It is absolutely fair to have those opinions about all of these detail points, but it is a bit of a cheap out to say that the people who like the overall trajectory of combat changes are not playing PvP, or at least not properly. The last few patches before U35 hit were pressure nightmare with nearly complete stamina build domination and, for all the faults that the later updates had, just an outdated and restrictive version of ESO PvP with different problems. Even through rose tinted glasses, there is nothing from that time that I miss or that wouldn't still be somewhat viable. You can tell yourself that everyone who doesn't yearn for Jabs spam, Dizzy spam, Savage WW bowsorc and CP1.0 is a filthy casual, but that is probably not enough to make these opinions go away.

PvP in the past had its own distinct shortcomings and just less options. But I am at least a bit amused, that half of the doomsaying is always "Noobs will get stomped when this goes live", while the other half claims "everything will be dumbed down and casual". If, for example, I had to decide right now between 2021 PvP and 2025 PvP, I would never pick the 2021 version. Yes, some things were better and some new things blow hard, but overall it is just lame compared to the options we have now. I think it will be especially fun to keep your opponent guessing as to what skill lines you are bringing in the new update. Sounds fun to me at least.

As far as performance goes, I agree, but I think everyone is wishing it would be better.

SeaGtGruff · April 12

Stx wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

SalamanNZ wrote: »

If done right this will be a real elderscrolls game finally. I personally can not wait

I assume you mean free form and without classes, so you mean Skyrim.

Not sure why everyone likes to forget how hardcoded and important classes were to all the other ES games?

Uh what? You could learn any skill in the game on any class in Morrowind and oblivion. The only requirements were attribute points.

Yes, but Arena was much, much different. Daggerfall added a ton of learnable skills, the various schools of magic, and the ability to create custom classes, but didn’t have the different armor skill lines yet and still had some limitations and benefits to each class.

Dino-Jr · April 12

For PVP I imagine there will be a set of pretty specific builds this will settle into. That seems guaranteed. For all we know Cyrodil might not be allowing players to use this system though in the future. So its basically Imperial City and Battlegrounds where that will be applicable.

For PVE the game and vet content is not difficult enough for the differences in build quality above a certain threshold to matter that much in practice. Feeling self imposed pressure to use certain set ups for PVE and pressure from a small % of Trial groups is possible I guess. Either way I imagine there are going to be an enormous # of builds that are absolutely strong enough for all the PVE content in the game and any group running through it. I can't imagine the gap between the very best builds and the now wider set of very ok builds being all that material given how easy all PVE content tends to be. Most significant impact on PVE to me is this will probably make soloing Dungeons, IA, other Arenas, World Bosses, and some Vet Content slightly easier.

CaptainVenom · April 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

This is totally fair. No one’s going to subclass as a Necromancer. 😬

Considering Blighted Blastbones AND Daedric Prey on the same character, I am lol

the1andonlyskwex · April 13

ADarklore wrote: »

People have been begging for a class change token for years so they can chase the FOTM, and now they're given even better options, and they're complaining about build diversity. I think people just love to complain and fear monger no matter what ZOS does. Personally, I'm SUPER excited for subclassing... now I can create my OWN class and play how I want to play.

It's almost like different people have conflicting opinions.

SalamanNZ · April 13

Will the skill line passives also work. Meaning a dk with the sorc skill line with extra physical and shock damage work?

SeaGtGruff · April 13

SalamanNZ wrote: »

Will the skill line passives also work. Meaning a dk with the sorc skill line with extra physical and shock damage work?

They said yes, but only for the given skill line and only if any requirements are met, such as how some passives only work if one or more of the active skills are slotted on the active skill bar.