How are we feeling about Subclassing?

Ragnarok0130 · April 11

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm genuinely worried. Players may equate this to being more like the The Elder Scrolls series was originally built to be. But fail to realize that The Elder Scrolls series was a single player game, and the mechanics from single player games doesn't translate well to multiplayer group focused games.

I totally agree. Since BETA there's been a battle between people who play this game because it's an Elder Scrolls MMO and Skyrim players who cannot fathom why it doesn't play like a TES single player game.

Ragnarok0130 · April 11

SilverBride wrote: »

This is basically a class change token without being a class change token.

I honestly would have preferred a class change token rather than this.

sans-culottes · April 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Worried about balance. Really worried.

Sure, it'd be fun for overland and RP, and I'm totally gonna set up some of my alts with skills that would make sense according to their lore. But nobody cares about balance in overland or in a normal.

But vet content? PvP? When competition is involved, then balance needs to as well. And ESO has not historically been great on that front...

Seriously, there are already so many "people aren't letting me bring my heavy attack build into trials!" threads. We really expect that this is going to make people admit more? "Play as you want" is a great thought... so long at the other 11 people in the group also think that. But if the group wants to be meta, then they're gonna be really exclusionary if you're not.

It was the same with hybridization - the idea (good) was that you could slot any skills without having to worry that some were not powerful because it was mag instead of stam. What happened? Every Class then got the "objectively better option" and the "I'm nerfing myself" option - so why would you take the worse one unless you were nerfing yourself? RP? Sure, try to explain to a group lead that you can't pull your weight in the group because it doesn't fit with your RP.
Now think of that, but homogenizing all the classes.

That will also make PvE less diverse as well. A lot of current groups like to bring a Templar because of their excellent execute power. Now if everyone can do that, why do we need a primary Templar when that slot could be another Arcanist with banner and Class Mastery? Why have healers if all the DPS can just run Matriarchs? Why have two tanks if one can just be in Magma 100% of the time and just not take damage ever? And then, all those support slots you don't need anymore can go to more DPS!

Also PvP - you thought the Polar Wind spamming Wardens was bad, now wait for them to also be able to cast Magma on cooldown to restore their resources as well. Or just wait for the gankblade bombers who can use Mages Wrath to get a second explosion out of Rush of Agony and then streak away unscathed. I guess it's a good thing people want a meta shift, because it's coming.

Finally, the thing that disappoints me most is that I really really want a new Class. I've been dreaming of a Dwemer Artificer for ages now, but this system makes it look like we'll never get a new Class again. After all, now instead of being balanced against 7 other Classes, it'd be three lines balanced against each other and 21 other lines individually.

Arcanist's release was some of the most fun I've had with this game. I love the new character setup process and getting to play with new skills and how they interact. Now, my options are to... make another version of a character I already have, until I finish the levelling to get them enough skill points to... make them into a hybrid of other characters because nobody has their own identity anymore. That's super depressing actually.

Imagine - we're at a state where literally the only Class identity we have anymore is the fashion of the Class set. "Sure you can use all the other skills from another class, but don't you dare wear a facemask! That's for OG NBs only!"

@tomofhyrule, great post. As someone who has been endlessly disappointed with ZOS’s (lack of) direction for the Necromancer class, this increases my concerns about their willingness to invest time in addressing core class imbalances. At this point, it’d probably make more sense for “classes” to be nothing more than a preset group of active and passive skills players could then mix and match.

All this to say, I’m concerned it’s also a tacit admission that the developers aren’t focused on fixing structural issues with class design. The Necromancer class’s core toolkit is still a buggy mess—this despite assurances from @ZOS_Kevin indicating that the team was keeping a close eye on things like Grave Lord’s Sacrifice. What a shame.

manukartofanu · April 11

So far, I see that now people will have one less reason to create alts. Previously, players had to make alts of different classes to access certain builds, but now everything can be done on a single character.
And yeah, it doesn't seem like releasing a new class makes any sense with this system. When the Arcanist was released, many had to create one because it was meta. In the current system, it's enough to simply take its skill lines.

SerafinaWaterstar · April 11

manukartofanu wrote: »

So far, I see that now people will have one less reason to create alts. Previously, players had to make alts of different classes to access certain builds, but now everything can be done on a single character.
And yeah, it doesn't seem like releasing a new class makes any sense with this system. When the Arcanist was released, many had to create one because it was meta. In the current system, it's enough to simply take its skill lines.

Think you might have to unlock the class skills first so will need alts.

And it means I can play around with my alts! My 5 nbs are pretty similar but now I can take them in wonderful new directions - a ranger, a more sorc one, one with dk/temp skills, oooh just thinking about the possibilities!

Melivar · April 11

What I am most excited for with the subclass system is the potential options that can be added down the road. There has always been lots of talk about a bard or tinker class or whatever you can imagine. While an entire class based on these things might not work, they can now add a single class line that anyone can add to pick up that fantasy.

A single line of skills for a bard line with songs and things allowing buffs or some new kind of damage.

Monk class with bare hands or staff may still be complicated but perhaps this opens it up as more of a possibility.

I think for the majority of players this is going to be confusing as heck at first but also a tone of fun once you start to tinker. Will get things closer to a skyrim feel where you can make tweaks to be almost anything.

The 1% on the PVE and PVP side will figure out the best this and the best that. As it is to be on that level of play your almost always going to be playing what the group leader wants or needs you to play anyways with certain sets on certain classes etc etc.

Vet trials can be cleared with any range of options but hard modes dictate more planning and working with your group to hit optimal marks. Maybe now some of those classes that get excluded for whatever reason will be able to find homes in these groups.

SerasWhip · April 11

As someone who isn't running alts, I've been waiting for class change tokens for years. This is good enough for me.

zombievalen · April 11

I wrote this on another forum and I'll repeat it with your permission: As always, one combination will be too powerful, and everyone will use the same one. DKs will probably use the Arcanist Ray, ha ha.

Seriously, it's time for Arcanists to stop being 90% of the roster (https://es.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS), and, at the other extreme, Guardians aren't DPS (in serious content).

I think the developers have finally realized that they need to make it so that all classes can, at least without too many differences, REALLY play all roles, and I applaud that.

Ratzkifal · April 11

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

So far, I see that now people will have one less reason to create alts. Previously, players had to make alts of different classes to access certain builds, but now everything can be done on a single character.
And yeah, it doesn't seem like releasing a new class makes any sense with this system. When the Arcanist was released, many had to create one because it was meta. In the current system, it's enough to simply take its skill lines.

Think you might have to unlock the class skills first so will need alts.

And it means I can play around with my alts! My 5 nbs are pretty similar but now I can take them in wonderful new directions - a ranger, a more sorc one, one with dk/temp skills, oooh just thinking about the possibilities!

ZOS said you won't need to make alts. Alts will make you unlock the skills faster if you already had them, but you can level up the other class lines just as you normally would at 50% of the speed.

SerafinaWaterstar · April 11

@Ratzkifal
Fair enough - gave up on post stream when they has tech issues.

Still not a reason not to make alts though!

randconfig · April 11

I honestly can't wait, I just wish we could see a demonstration to know all the specific rules for how it will work.

From my understanding it's currently:

Minimum of one skill tree must be your class
Scribing class mastery scripts will continue to be based on your class
Can have no more than one skill tree from a given subclass
Can have any number of skill trees for your own class
The skill tree swaps includes passives, active ability, and ulitmate abilities

My main questions now:

Would a damage focused skill tree, like Necromancer Grave Lord, be exchangeable with a support focused skill tree, like Warden Green Balance? Or would you have to swap damage focused skill tree for another damage focused skill tree? Also how would that work for a class like Sorcerer where all three skill trees could be considered damage focused?
Would abilities/passives that mention "class ability" include subclass abilities, or apply strictly for the original class?

Melivar · April 11

randconfig wrote: »

I honestly can't wait, I just wish we could see a demonstration to know all the specific rules for how it will work.

From my understanding it's currently:
Minimum of one skill tree must be your class

Scribing class mastery scripts will continue to be based on your class

Can have no more than one skill tree from a given subclass

Can have any number of skill trees for your own class

The skill tree swaps includes passives, active ability, and ulitmate abilities

My main questions now:
Would a damage focused skill tree, like Necromancer Grave Lord, be exchangeable with a support focused skill tree, like Warden Green Balance? Or would you have to swap damage focused skill tree for another damage focused skill tree? Also how would that work for a class like Sorcerer where all three skill trees could be considered damage focused?

Would abilities/passives that mention "class ability" include subclass abilities, or apply strictly for the original class?

Your question #2 is interesting and I would assume it would but we shall have to see. Losing some passives to give up an entire skill line is one of the draw backs and might make things mor interesting than you would think

Ratzkifal · April 11

randconfig wrote: »

I honestly can't wait, I just wish we could see a demonstration to know all the specific rules for how it will work.

From my understanding it's currently:
Minimum of one skill tree must be your class

Scribing class mastery scripts will continue to be based on your class

Can have no more than one skill tree from a given subclass

Can have any number of skill trees for your own class

The skill tree swaps includes passives, active ability, and ulitmate abilities

My main questions now:
Would a damage focused skill tree, like Necromancer Grave Lord, be exchangeable with a support focused skill tree, like Warden Green Balance? Or would you have to swap damage focused skill tree for another damage focused skill tree? Also how would that work for a class like Sorcerer where all three skill trees could be considered damage focused?

Would abilities/passives that mention "class ability" include subclass abilities, or apply strictly for the original class?

1# Absolutely. Older classes don't have that clear separation, so it would make little sense if they arbitrarily decided that Daedric Summoning is the tanking line now even though it has the Sorc healer's Matriarch pet. As I understand it, you will be able to pick up to 3 tanking skill lines from the classes of your choosing.
2# The way it sounded on stream "class ability" includes subclasses. Whether that includes skills that specifically tie to a skill line "when dealing damage with a Dark magic ability" for example is unknown. I am guessing whenever it says "class ability", it will work on subclasses. When it says "Aedric Spear", perhaps it won't.

manukartofanu · April 11

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

@Ratzkifal
Fair enough - gave up on post stream when they has tech issues.

Still not a reason not to make alts though!

Not a reason for RPs, but a reason for those who has to make another tank/dps/healer to have that 1 skill/build my group needs. And these are active players. Who else would spend dozens of hours on something like this? Now they won't.

aetherix8 · April 11

This is so awesome, finally I will be able to get rid of whatever it is that spawns on my main's back everytime I need major resolve (spiked armor). Straight away I will be swapping it for my fav sorc skill, lightning form. Resolve and Expedition, much better, and much prettier.

PvP will be mess tho, imho.

Nerhesi · April 11

Why are people upset or concerned? This is what the game is about!

Play the way you want? Hybridize everything! No cooldowns! No Crowd Control! No static/finite resources! Everyone's resources reset every 4 seconds... This is the direction that has been chosen and championed by the loud minority.. or near majority!

Please lay in your bed. You shunned away from actual roles, crowd control, cooldowns, health/magic/stamina pools that dont rubberband in a few seconds. This is the MMO-light approach many have championed! This next step is only logical and of course, necessary.

Elephant42 · April 11

ESO as it currently stands is:
1.Overly complicated allowing many esoteric exploits that the devs struggle to understand let alone control.
2. Massively unbalanced.
3. Has a gap between the floor and the ceiling that is enormous.

IMO the changes announced in the recent stream will make ESO:
1. Even more complicated.
2. Even more unbalanced.
3. Have a gap between floor and ceiling that is gargantuan.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · April 11

Melivar wrote: »

What I am most excited for with the subclass system is the potential options that can be added down the road. There has always been lots of talk about a bard or tinker class or whatever you can imagine. While an entire class based on these things might not work, they can now add a single class line that anyone can add to pick up that fantasy.

A single line of skills for a bard line with songs and things allowing buffs or some new kind of damage.

Monk class with bare hands or staff may still be complicated but perhaps this opens it up as more of a possibility.

I don’t think they need subclasses for that, they could do something like they did with the existing Psijic skill line or the Alliance War lines.

Joy_Division · April 11

You know ZOS is going to go crazy with the nerfhammer once certain combinations are found and basically ruin the game for those of us who *gasp* just want to be a Templar.

ADarklore · April 11

In all honesty, I wasn't ever planning to come back to ESO. I didn't like many of the changes and hadn't played for several months now. However, this new subclass system is going to bring me back.

Amottica · April 11

randconfig wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the fuss and fearmongering is for. It's a great direction for the game, even if there will be a few bugs and needs for balance adjustments.

I'm hyped for it!

First, people fear change.

Second, more choices lead to fewer choices for those interested in peak performance. This statement is supported by the similar builds of the top-performing players. Players with competitive PvE raid groups are not told what their build must be. They are only told what their DPS or healing/tanking effectiveness must be. That tends to mean the best-performing skills, which minimizes differences between builds.

It is similar for those players interested in class flavor, since more choice outside class means less class flavor.

Granted, it is great and fun for the more casual player, who is the majority of the player base and essentially the bread and butter of ESO revenue.

Someone's thoughts and opinions on this greatly depend on the type of player they are.

I will add my thoughts on this. We should be able to replace only one skill line. That would help keep some of the limited class flavor we currently have. From what I understand, I know this is not how it will be. Hopefully, we cannot change on a whim.

Vaqual · April 11

Can't wait for it.
Planning out the changes I am going to make in U46 is literally more fun than playing the live version.

shadyjane62 · April 12

"We" hate it. Will just leave me further behind to the point I will not even understand how to play the game. Never been into theory crafting. This will dominate everything till the ones that are totally overpowered are nerfed. Cannot see any good side to this new way of doing things.

Cardhwion · April 12

I absolutely love that they lean more into the TES "no classes" vibe with this. It feels more like the other Elder Scrolls games.

Cardhwion · April 12

amig186 wrote: »

I just hope it's limited to one bonus skill line, otherwise why even have classes. What the hell are people talking about classless being closer to traditional TES? Every single TES game had classes until Skyrim.

ESO should not have classes to begin with, it simply does not fit with the Elder Scrolls vibe overall. Classes were a pandering to the traditional MMO trope, nothing more.

As for all the people whimpering about the "META": As far as I can see it, no one is hindering you, to work out the optimum setup for Trials and PVP and run with that. The rest of us can play as we like, it does not impact you.

EnerG · April 12

Personally as somebody who pvps and tries to push their tanks/dps to the best meta for trials with my mates, I don't see this becoming a huge power jump outside of minmaxing a few extra percents. Which is too say I see it being a small impact on endgame, and a larger impact for players at large.

I see the ardent flame and templar dps skill trees being something "meta" but not more than a few %higher on other classes then just playing a DK or temp normally. Whereas your baby newbie might benefit alot from having an extra dps skill tree to pull from and learn with.

Cardhwion · April 12

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the fuss and fearmongering is for. It's a great direction for the game, even if there will be a few bugs and needs for balance adjustments.

I'm hyped for it!

You know we were accused of "fearmongering" when we raised issues about U35 and we were proven correct at every turn. Historically ZoS has proven that they can't balance this game, heck the combat team prattled on ad nauseum about their "combat vision" but was wholly unable to articulate just what that vision was to the point where they canceled the U35 townhall that they came up with to address the concerns when it became apparent that we wanted actual answers and not just marketing speak thrown at us. But now we're expected to accept that this same combat team will be able to balance a much more complicated multi-class version of the game despite their repeated failures in this very area?

It is fearmongering. The majority of players does not even participate in high end group activities were the META will be seriously affected. So why should the Devs tailor stuff to a small percentage of the playerbase?

Cardhwion · April 12

Amottica wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the fuss and fearmongering is for. It's a great direction for the game, even if there will be a few bugs and needs for balance adjustments.

I'm hyped for it!

First, people fear change.

Second, more choices lead to fewer choices for those interested in peak performance. This statement is supported by the similar builds of the top-performing players. Players with competitive PvE raid groups are not told what their build must be. They are only told what their DPS or healing/tanking effectiveness must be. That tends to mean the best-performing skills, which minimizes differences between builds.

It is similar for those players interested in class flavor, since more choice outside class means less class flavor.

Granted, it is great and fun for the more casual player, who is the majority of the player base and essentially the bread and butter of ESO revenue.

Someone's thoughts and opinions on this greatly depend on the type of player they are.

I will add my thoughts on this. We should be able to replace only one skill line. That would help keep some of the limited class flavor we currently have. From what I understand, I know this is not how it will be. Hopefully, we cannot change on a whim.

And the players interested in peak performance are a small percentage of the playerbase. The Devs probably have those metrics. The majority just plays, plays however feels good for them. Hence the persistence of Heavy Attack Builds. And honestly, for those wanting "peak performance" there is the option to have one build saved that is optimized for Trial&/PVP whatever, which they can use for those activities. And outside of that? They could also play like they want, if they dared to go into the overland with a non-optimized build. Warning: they might discover fun there.

Cardhwion · April 12

I have been thinking about all that was said here, and sadly my conclusion is, that there fearmongerers are the people who want to tell others how they "should" play the game.

Because: - subclassing does not affect Trial/PVP groups, they can set up their skills for optimum effectiveness, and do their stuff just fine. They do not lose anything, with subclassing, they even gain the option to be a bit more varied in their team setups.

Xarc · April 12

What I think, hum.

It could be great, but I'm a little worried about what players will do with it. It's always the same: the basic idea is often good, but without certain limits, players do whatever they want, and with too many limits, players get frustrated.
So let's wait and see.