Werewolves don't use weapons, why would they get a bonus from something they don't use?

I would think that if the game would finally add an "unarmed" skill line that gave some basic w/s damage/crit buffs that would also be something that would apply to werewolves because they are also "unarmed"

Jestir wrote: »

Werewolves don't use weapons, why would they get a bonus from something they don't use?

I would think that if the game would finally add an "unarmed" skill line that gave some basic w/s damage/crit buffs that would also be something that would apply to werewolves because they are also "unarmed"

They don't use armor, either, yet they get armor passives. You might say that a player using cosmetics to visually hide their armor should still get armor passives solely because it's still equipped.

Weapons are just a weird exception to this rule. I know the light/heavy attacks while transformed are different for werewolves than for other weapon types, but it still grants us access to the weapon enchantments and poisons equipped on that bar, as well as the inherent armor and damage from having a shield or weapon equipped — it's not the same as being completely unarmed.

Yeah I will be bug reporting this as a bug and making a post until they either ban me or allow werewolves access to weapon passives. (Im a founding subscriber) I want an official to message me personally explaining why they dont have access. Literally no one in the game plays werewolf, the dps is abyssal. Ill be making a post soon about suggested fixes

I would love to get weapon passives would definitely make running as a wolf in content easier. (Not that the current state has stopped me from doing that. )

Darkness734 wrote: »

I thinkits crazy you get weapon damage and even the trait of the weapon and enchantment but you dont get the weapon passive. Like this would even the playing field and even promote build diversity

It would help for sure. Werewolf would still have a long way to go, but dang would this be helpful.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The 3 things I'd like to see changed with werewolf would be:
1. Give them access to weapon passives, would be a nice buff without making it too broken. There has been bugs in the past where certain passives did work and it did make werewolf more competitive.
2. Reduce the cost of their heal. The heal itself (mainly Hircines Fortitude) is funny enough one of the strongest burst heals in the game (48% of your max HP), problem is that it's too expensive in my opinion.
4. Get rid of the double activation on pounce, it just makes the skill so clunky.

Bonus: Maybe give werewolf some scribing specific tools to work with, could be interesting.

Even with those changes, (they are good changes) Werewolf would not be OP. It would be playable.

I really dislike the double use of pounce. The idea of a skill flipping to a new one after use is great but they haven’t managed to make it work smoothly so just get rid of it.

Instead I would really like it if you could still build ultimate in wolf form and then your transform button changes to a new skill that is cheap to use like the warden Bear ultimate. I’m sure there’s an easy way they could add to cancel wolf form.

Darkness734 wrote: »

This forum will live on until I and the 5 other werewolf players are heard! Hopefully they'll spend an hour and change the skills to resurrect a whole WW community

Numbers have dwindled but there are still a lot of werewolf players around. If it was improved, there might be a chance to bring some back to the game.

The update to Werewolf Roar pushed a lot of people way. Sure, it got a taunt and a mitigation modifier on one morph, but the nerf to damage(which is already low) was 100% unnecessary.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon passives tend to work off one or to specific requirements. Sometimes they work on specific weapons or even skills, while others require a skill or weapons of that line to be slotted on the active bar. In other words, neither is likely to be the case when in WW form. As such this is not likely to happen and should not.

The weapon is slotted. Not all of the passives would make sense since some are based on a specific skill. That's fine. The ones that do make sense (ie. Penetration bonus from a mace, aoe damage from a 2h heavy attack, critical chance from DW daggers) should absolutely work.

Some might argue that the weapon is not animated in your hands.
Here's why that shouldnt matter: Templar uses their beam and their weapon disappears, Arcanist uses their beam and the weapon disappears, Nightblade casts concealed weapon and their weapon disappears, Necromancer uses scythe and their weapon disappears, Dragonknight uses their flame whip and their weapon disappears sorcerer casts crystal fragments and the weapon disappears. All of these classes still get the weapon passives without a weapon being in their hands.

The Templar beam is a fabulous example. The weapon is on the active bar, the bar the Radiant Destruction is slotted on. Because they are both on the same bar, any related passives to the skill would share. The bar does not change. The same goes for the other classes and skills used.

With WW, a third bar, the WW bar, is used. As such, the weapons do not remain.

Games are designed on logic, I have described the logic in play, explaining why the weapon passives do not and should not persist while in WW form. I expect we can discuss it to great lengths, but it all comes back to this as this is a foundation of the game's design.

Back when you could learn weapon passives in Werewolf form, you only got the weapon passives for the bar you transformed on. In other words, the Werewolf bar isn't a third ability bar — it's a temporary replacement for whatever ability bar you activate Werewolf Transformation from.

Yes, not all weapon passives actually worked, but the important ones did and they contributed to a lot of Werewolf's DPS. It's a shame that ZOS deems that to be a bug.

The WW bar is a third bar. It is not the same as either of the other two bars and bears no resemblance to them.

I also think one important fact is that if Zenimax decided to allow the weapon passives to persist while in WW form, they would rebalance the skills accordingly. Just being realistic.

Werewolf replaces the ability bar you're currently on. Take these screenshots, for instance:

In the top screenshot, I am on ability bar 1. In the second, I am on ability bar 2.

If I could use Basalt-Blooded Warrior, I'd get the Primary Weapon bonus in the top screenshot, and the Secondary Weapon bonus in the bottom screenshot.

Let's just make it clear that the Werewolf bar does NOT put you on a third ability bar, but rather it replaces the ability bar you are currently on. You draw shield/weapon enchantments and poisons, WD/SD, and so on from the weapons you activate Werewolf Transformation with. You even still get Hasty Retreat from having a Bow equipped because ZOS hasn't patched that out yet.


And I stand firm with my position that Werewolf should get applicable Weapon passives, without being nerfed to compensate. It doesn't make sense that Werewolf gets Armor passives without the ability to use Armor abilities, or Class passives without the ability to use Class abilities. What makes an Imperial Werewolf heal for less resources than an Orc Werewolf, who heals by dealing damage?

None of the passives really make sense, yet they work in Werewolf form — just, for some reason, ZOS explicitly disabled Weapon passives from working, when a bug showed us precisely which ones would've worked.

Class Passives ARE Disabled. At least on Nightblades.

Darkness734 wrote: »

Yeah I will be bug reporting this as a bug and making a post until they either ban me or allow werewolves access to weapon passives. (Im a founding subscriber) I want an official to message me personally explaining why they dont have access. Literally no one in the game plays werewolf, the dps is abyssal. Ill be making a post soon about suggested fixes

On new characters, the werewolf dps far surpasses what they can do. Then factor in the skills and...
Yeah.
New Toon gets 10 times dps out of berserker werewolf than their own kit. And more defense.
Yeah, the heal is expensive, but it heals about the same as a rookie heal, sometimes more.

For instance, I just made a Warden on PC.
Cutting Dive and Soothing Spores.
I get more damage and healing out of Werewolf, acquired from NPCs.
Got all the passives except for bloodmoon.
Got all the skills, half morphed.
First time going berserker and I am loving it past pack leader. Solo in a dungeon, I can maintain it all the way to the final boss.
That was fun.

But I know that weapon perks USED to be usable, and every werewolf would run twohanded to get area attacks.
Because of that, they disabled weapon perks. Made all weapons then play pretty much the same.
The Werewolves then played as intended, only a specific morph having area attacks under a specific condition, and the other portion of said morph not becoming OP.

Back to my Warden:
Light Attack 2.8k
Heavy Attack 5.5k
Cutting Dive 5k with bleed (stamina)
Soothing Spores 5k (stamina)
35k stamina (Stamden)

Werewolf: Berserker
Light Attack 5.5k with bleed
Heavy Attack over 8k, over 11k crit, and hits area.
Claws for conal dot, can't morph yet
Pounce for bleed (Carnage), just morphed it to the area version but haven't gotten to try it out yet
Howl for 33% faster heavy attacks
Heal not morphed
I barely use the piercing howl, unless I'm fighting a boss, but even then it deals pretty much the same damage as my light attack and bosses are immune to terrified. Ads die so fast that I'd rather conserve my stamina for Pounces and howls and claws, and the occasional dodge. However, it might be useful in a tougher dungeon. Toughest this toon's done is the one in Deshaan, solo. Level 26. Can't wait to vet him. No sets, just training traits.
Actually, is Arx Corinium tougher? I've done that one too. It was pretty easy.

I plan on using the bloodmoon set on him, help spread the bleed faster.
Maybe the Blooddrinker too.

I remember the time when you could equip a twohanded to turn all werewolf light attacks into area. I remember them calling it OP and then disabling all weapon passives in WW form in response.
But if we still could, I'd do that instead of bloodmoon, simply to apply bleed to the whole group of foes faster.
Eh, I still might use bloodmoon anyways, who doesn't like more dps? Faster attacks, faster dps.

What do y'all think?

autocookies wrote: »

@KaironBlackbard

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8030199#Comment_8030199




As you level up, the Werewolf passives decrease. I'm not exactly sure which one it is, since I haven't leveled a toon in years, but I know one of the passives does decrease.

So if you're going to enjoy Werewolf, it's best to do it while leveling—just like you're doing now. It is still fun at max level but feels weaker then being in human form.

Also since your a warden adding an ice damage enchantment to a weapon will give you the warden passive from the ice tree. +8% damage if your below the health requirement.

Literally just the one you showed. None of the true passives decrease. Not yet anyways. And according to Eso-Hub, the passive effects have the same value between my level and max level from which they took it. So passives don't scale.
Abilities scale. Passives don't.
Forgive me if that sounds rude, that wasn't my intention, I'm not good with words.

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

show previous quotes

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon passives tend to work off one or to specific requirements. Sometimes they work on specific weapons or even skills, while others require a skill or weapons of that line to be slotted on the active bar. In other words, neither is likely to be the case when in WW form. As such this is not likely to happen and should not.

The weapon is slotted. Not all of the passives would make sense since some are based on a specific skill. That's fine. The ones that do make sense (ie. Penetration bonus from a mace, aoe damage from a 2h heavy attack, critical chance from DW daggers) should absolutely work.

Some might argue that the weapon is not animated in your hands.
Here's why that shouldnt matter: Templar uses their beam and their weapon disappears, Arcanist uses their beam and the weapon disappears, Nightblade casts concealed weapon and their weapon disappears, Necromancer uses scythe and their weapon disappears, Dragonknight uses their flame whip and their weapon disappears sorcerer casts crystal fragments and the weapon disappears. All of these classes still get the weapon passives without a weapon being in their hands.

The Templar beam is a fabulous example. The weapon is on the active bar, the bar the Radiant Destruction is slotted on. Because they are both on the same bar, any related passives to the skill would share. The bar does not change. The same goes for the other classes and skills used.

With WW, a third bar, the WW bar, is used. As such, the weapons do not remain.

Games are designed on logic, I have described the logic in play, explaining why the weapon passives do not and should not persist while in WW form. I expect we can discuss it to great lengths, but it all comes back to this as this is a foundation of the game's design.

Back when you could learn weapon passives in Werewolf form, you only got the weapon passives for the bar you transformed on. In other words, the Werewolf bar isn't a third ability bar — it's a temporary replacement for whatever ability bar you activate Werewolf Transformation from.

Yes, not all weapon passives actually worked, but the important ones did and they contributed to a lot of Werewolf's DPS. It's a shame that ZOS deems that to be a bug.

The WW bar is a third bar. It is not the same as either of the other two bars and bears no resemblance to them.

I also think one important fact is that if Zenimax decided to allow the weapon passives to persist while in WW form, they would rebalance the skills accordingly. Just being realistic.

Werewolf replaces the ability bar you're currently on. Take these screenshots, for instance:

In the top screenshot, I am on ability bar 1. In the second, I am on ability bar 2.

If I could use Basalt-Blooded Warrior, I'd get the Primary Weapon bonus in the top screenshot, and the Secondary Weapon bonus in the bottom screenshot.

Let's just make it clear that the Werewolf bar does NOT put you on a third ability bar, but rather it replaces the ability bar you are currently on. You draw shield/weapon enchantments and poisons, WD/SD, and so on from the weapons you activate Werewolf Transformation with. You even still get Hasty Retreat from having a Bow equipped because ZOS hasn't patched that out yet.


And I stand firm with my position that Werewolf should get applicable Weapon passives, without being nerfed to compensate. It doesn't make sense that Werewolf gets Armor passives without the ability to use Armor abilities, or Class passives without the ability to use Class abilities. What makes an Imperial Werewolf heal for less resources than an Orc Werewolf, who heals by dealing damage?

None of the passives really make sense, yet they work in Werewolf form — just, for some reason, ZOS explicitly disabled Weapon passives from working, when a bug showed us precisely which ones would've worked.

Class Passives ARE Disabled. At least on Nightblades.

Assassination gets Master Assassin (minus the bonus for the stun from sneak, since werewolves can't sneak) and Executioner.
Shadow gets Refreshing Shadows.
Siphoning effectively gets nothing, but if werewolves could generate Ultimate while transformed, then Catalyst would work.

Nobody is going to convince me that having area damage from a 2h passive makes werewolf OP. I remember playing with it when it worked and it wasn't even close to OP.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

It is amazing to me that these aren't already available, and as I read through each of them I wonder how Werewolf is even remotely playable without them when compared to human form. Here are the passives that should work while in Werewolf form, as they are not tied to using a particular weapon skill.

Bow:
Vinedusk Training, Accuracy, Hasty Retreat.

Destruction Staff:
Tri-focus, Elemental Force, Ancient knowledge.

Dual Wield:
Dual Wield Expert, Ruffian, Twin Blade and Blunt

One Hand and Shield:
Fortress, Sword and Board, Deadly Bash, Deflected Bolts, Battlefield Mobility.

Restoration Staff:
Essence Drain, Restoration Expert, Cycle of Life, Absorb.

Two Handed:
Forceful, Heavy Weapons, Battle Rush

The build diversity that these would open up would be so good for werewolf players. In PVP they could finally break away from the one and only competitive build that relies entirely on proc sets. In PVE, tanks would be more viable, dps would be slightly higher, and the possibility of a werewolf healer could be an option.

Werewolf doesn't have other healing abilities, and the heavy attack from resto is so weak that you can't really call it a healer skill, more of a support skill.

--
I know why Tri-Focus doesn't work.
Lightning splash damage from claws? Not realistic.
Fire burn from claws? not realistic.
And though the damage shield would be fun, it would grant too much incentive of ice over the other destros.

Elemental Force and Ancient Knowledge could work though.

However, if they do allow the Ice Staff to apply Damage Shield via Tri Focus, then a portion of Destruction Expert could be usable, allowing Werewolf to gain magicka once every 10 seconds by absorbing damage with the Tri Resto Damage Shield.
Again, too much incentive of ice over the other destros. Would help them self heal more often. Or block more since their block uses magicka due to Ice Staff Ancient Knowledge. Hmm... Perhaps the Ancient Knowledge would double as a disincentive to use Ice Staff due to magic block on a stam build... Eh. Some would probably still use it though.
But, if it is least used compared to Fire or Lightning without the Tri-Focus, then Ice could get TriFocus+DestructionExpert as an undisincentive.
--
Bow
Makes sense.
--
Dual Wield
Would improve DPSers. I'd think acceptable.
--
Shield
Fortress+Board = Ice Ancient Knowledge + 5% damage buff, but with shield they have less damage so the 5% is to make up for lost damage.
Bash
Bolts
Brace
I'd think acceptable too. Though some might see as too many passives compared to other weapon trees.
--
Resto
Mending with heal, but they based it off the final hit not off the full damage, so 50% of the final hit would be only about 25%-35% of a normal heavy, but when under Empower it can be closer to 47% of total because empower only bolsters the final hit. The balancing here would be wonky. Plus how would it register on a Berserker? If it heals for every target hit, then perhaps a Berserker Werewolf could be an ok healer while also being a massive dps.
Resto Expert: Could buff self heal, does it apply to the heal from Essence Drain?
Absorb would help cast self heal more often. Or benefit a Werewolf who uses Stormweaver's Cavort.
--
Two Handed
The reason why they don't want Forceful to proc is because the Werewolf is supposed to be a single target dps, not a hoard clearer. At least, not passively. Pair that with Berserker and people were applying bleed to more than the devs intended at once. The only passive AoE was supposed to be Berserker Heavy, not all werewolves using two handed. I do feel disabling ALL weapon passives was Overkill though.

Heavy Weapons and Battle Rush would be nice though. Or do they deem the 30% stam recovery boost from Battle Rush to be too powerful to stack with other Werewolf effects?
--

Werewolves need sneak though.
And a reveal howl.
--
Maybe a way to aid others, or at least fellow werewolves, with a morph of the Self Heal?
Convert the regen buff morph to base and add its effects to the offensive morph, then turn the other into an area, that way the morphs are A: Damage Morph, B: Area Morph, that way it's DPS or Healer Wolf based on morph. DPS gets the berserk when cast at full health, other morph has no additional self effect but becomes area healing nearby allies when cast. All versions apply the minor endurance and intellect.
That would be a good minor buff for Werewolf AND allow healer wolves.