Lamp Knight's Art makes no sense.

VixxVexx · March 14

This is from a pvp perspective

The downside shouldn't even be a damage reduction. At best you do double damage which then gets cut in half.
Do damage but don't do damage, it's bad design.

It should be something like enemies have zero armour but you also have zero armour (can be hardcoded -100k pen w/e). This means you have to heavily build into %mitigation but you don't have to worry about pen and armour buffs. So you can drop Major/Minor Reslove slots, Heavy Armour, Defending trait, etc. (Plenty of %mitigation like brp dw, buffer of the swift, evasion, protection, block mitigation, esoteric, ... )

MincMincMinc · March 14

Sluggy wrote: »

calamity192 wrote: »

I've dropped a piece of this set yesterday and was thinking about possible place for it. Have you got any ideas?

After some thinking, the shell I decided to try this set in Status Effects on DK.

The main reason for that is Combustion probably. Almost single-handedly mitigates the drawback of this set with 40% increased damage of your Burning and Poison status effects.

The second thing is Elemental Explosion: Trauma + Assassin's Misery + Off Balance. This should be fun.
After some unintelligent calculation I concluded that if target has more than 19%ish res (depends on the amount of increased damage, the more you have the more res will cut it, your captain) - this set gives more damage. Which I found acceptable...

With that said, here are the numbers that should help to mitigate and push forward:
Set: -46%
Malacath band: 16%, since we want to build around Status Effect, crit damage probably something we could sacrifice (?)
Combustion: 40%,
Ancient Knowledge 2: 12%
Major berserk: 10%, from Chains of Devastation most likely
Fiery Banner: 11%, Flame Damage (6% more DoT damage) + Class Mastery + Minor Berserk (5% more damage)
CP Thaumaturgy: 6%
CP Exploiter: 10%

Burning is applied with Destructive Touch and Poison with Venomous Claw.
The question is what to choose as second set... I was always dreaming of using Serpent's Disdain somewhere... But something like Deadly Strike could be good too. Or maybe something for durability...

I've been running a status effect DK on and off for the last year and I can't say I'd be too excited about this set. Although I have no idea where the decrease rests in the calculation so it's kind hard to say without that knowledge. Multipliers are always weird like that.

The %damage loss is additive with other % damage sources and displayed as such in your stat sheet. Nothing sneaky happening calculation wise. Zos has actually cleaned up a lot of these inconsistencies.

Thumbless_Bot · March 14

It's sort of like, wear this, and give up a five piece on the offhand chance you encounter a tank bot, so you can do mediocre damage to them.

It might be useful if it also ignored block mitigation. This might require increasing the penalty though.

YandereGirlfriend · March 16

Has anyone been successfully using this in their build?

I would be interested in the state of play now that this set has been live for a little while.

Xarc · March 16

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Medium – Lamp Knight’s Art

2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – Gain 100000 Offensive Penetration. Reduce your damage done by 46%.
Can we please think this through for a sec.

No one has enough resistance to counter this.
Just consider that the 5th bonus is: "ignore completely the resistance of the ennemy & reduce your damage done by 46%"

Introducing this type of set into the game puts a brake on the race for resistance, in a way.
Of course, not everyone will use this set, but it may be ZOS's answer to complaints about enemies being too resistant in PvP.

MincMincMinc · March 18

Xarc wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Medium – Lamp Knight’s Art

2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – Gain 100000 Offensive Penetration. Reduce your damage done by 46%.
Can we please think this through for a sec.

No one has enough resistance to counter this.
Just consider that the 5th bonus is: "ignore completely the resistance of the ennemy & reduce your damage done by 46%"

Introducing this type of set into the game puts a brake on the race for resistance, in a way.
Of course, not everyone will use this set, but it may be ZOS's answer to complaints about enemies being too resistant in PvP.

Yes, and as discussed before set performs equivalent to wearing hundings against a ~28k resist enemy. Under that resist value its like you are not wearing a worse hundings and above that value it starts to feel closer to meta damage sets.

Consistency is a bonus of this set, where when fighting a backbar enemy, you will feel just as strong. Which may help to disturb enemies who think they are immortal on their backbar. Granted this set doesn't do anything about blocking which most mid tier players tend to do defensively

olsborg · March 18

I dont think I would use this set even if it also said "also ignores minor and major protection"

Thumbless_Bot · March 18

Xarc wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Medium – Lamp Knight’s Art

2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – Gain 100000 Offensive Penetration. Reduce your damage done by 46%.
Can we please think this through for a sec.

No one has enough resistance to counter this.
Just consider that the 5th bonus is: "ignore completely the resistance of the ennemy & reduce your damage done by 46%"

Introducing this type of set into the game puts a brake on the race for resistance, in a way.
Of course, not everyone will use this set, but it may be ZOS's answer to complaints about enemies being too resistant in PvP.

No one complains about people being to resistant. They complain about people being too tanky and heals being broken.

This set needs A LOT more to be viable in combating tankiness, since that seems to be what it is combating, but then the set would negate defensive build choices and likely be op. It's really hard to think of a way that this set can balance on that knives edge.

It's either going to be too weak, as it is now, or too strong. Pick your poison.

The way to move forward with this set is likely to build purely into either raw damage or crit, and then take the 54% of that. Maybe pair it with clever bb, molag kena, and masters destro, but then your recoveries are dog water. It's meh at best for pvp and worse for pve.

MincMincMinc · March 19

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Medium – Lamp Knight’s Art

2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – Gain 100000 Offensive Penetration. Reduce your damage done by 46%.
Can we please think this through for a sec.

No one has enough resistance to counter this.
Just consider that the 5th bonus is: "ignore completely the resistance of the ennemy & reduce your damage done by 46%"

Introducing this type of set into the game puts a brake on the race for resistance, in a way.
Of course, not everyone will use this set, but it may be ZOS's answer to complaints about enemies being too resistant in PvP.

No one complains about people being to resistant. They complain about people being too tanky and heals being broken.

This set needs A LOT more to be viable in combating tankiness, since that seems to be what it is combating, but then the set would negate defensive build choices and likely be op. It's really hard to think of a way that this set can balance on that knives edge.

It's either going to be too weak, as it is now, or too strong. Pick your poison.

The way to move forward with this set is likely to build purely into either raw damage or crit, and then take the 54% of that. Maybe pair it with clever bb, molag kena, and masters destro, but then your recoveries are dog water. It's meh at best for pvp and worse for pve.

Really this set just is a prime example of something that COULD be an amazing idea, but is sadly on a knife edge of being useless/op because the game lacks standardization. For example of the convolution just look at how resists in pvp are calculated using 660 as the 1% standard...... 0-33k is your 0% to 50%...... Why? Someone did napkin math 10 years ago and nobody shot it down.

Silly that we hear issues of how new players have trouble understanding the game and we need more accessibility sets that play themselves. How about we make the core stats make sense before anything else?

YandereGirlfriend · March 20

I finally saw my first Lamp Knight enjoyer show up in a Cyrodiil log.

But the fact that it took several nights of looking for it should tell you everything that's needed about the current balance of the set.

Would love to see the debuff adjusted to ~30-35% in the next PTS Notes.

MincMincMinc · March 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I finally saw my first Lamp Knight enjoyer show up in a Cyrodiil log.

But the fact that it took several nights of looking for it should tell you everything that's needed about the current balance of the set.

Would love to see the debuff adjusted to ~30-35% in the next PTS Notes.

Shoulda been this pts pass, itd take 5 seconds to change the variable.

Curious what the hangup is whether its

Forum mods not passing the info
Some manager not making a meeting or worse, needing multiple meetings
An employee not changing a variable instead of a 5min coffee break

Thumbless_Bot · March 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I finally saw my first Lamp Knight enjoyer show up in a Cyrodiil log.

But the fact that it took several nights of looking for it should tell you everything that's needed about the current balance of the set.

Would love to see the debuff adjusted to ~30-35% in the next PTS Notes.

Shoulda been this pts pass, itd take 5 seconds to change the variable.

Curious what the hangup is whether its
Forum mods not passing the info

Some manager not making a meeting or worse, needing multiple meetings

An employee not changing a variable instead of a 5min coffee break

It would be nice to understand where 46 came from. I don't know ow what the right number is, but, at some point it goes from a damage nerf to a damage buff. Who knows what the right number is, but, as a new set. One would think it would error on the side of a slight buff to make it attractive. 46 is a nerf. No one wants to nerf themselves.

Zos has to be very careful imho, because this set has the potential to be stupid broken if they overbuff it.

MincMincMinc · March 26

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I finally saw my first Lamp Knight enjoyer show up in a Cyrodiil log.

But the fact that it took several nights of looking for it should tell you everything that's needed about the current balance of the set.

Would love to see the debuff adjusted to ~30-35% in the next PTS Notes.

Shoulda been this pts pass, itd take 5 seconds to change the variable.

Curious what the hangup is whether its
Forum mods not passing the info

Some manager not making a meeting or worse, needing multiple meetings

An employee not changing a variable instead of a 5min coffee break

It would be nice to understand where 46 came from. I don't know ow what the right number is, but, at some point it goes from a damage nerf to a damage buff. Who knows what the right number is, but, as a new set. One would think it would error on the side of a slight buff to make it attractive. 46 is a nerf. No one wants to nerf themselves.

Zos has to be very careful imho, because this set has the potential to be stupid broken if they overbuff it.

They probably just said 30k resists is 46% mit and sounds about right.

Without factoring in that 90% players are only at 22-28k(33%-42%) and have major/minor breach applied at all times (19.5%-28.5%) worth of pen. Factor in Maul and Sharp 6250(29%-38%) Then factor in a bar slot ~6%(35%-42%) of worth and -46% negative. When most sets have no negative and give 10-15% of damage done worth. In reality lamp falls short 26%-19% damage done. Again proving the negative should have been somewhere around -25%. Not to mention the 2-3 piece stam lines are useless in today's game.

Estin · March 28

Am I correct in my understanding that % damage done modifies are additive to this? If that is true, would this be a somewhat decent set for a stamden? Here's what I'm thinking

Essence Thief - 10% Damage Done
Merciless Charge - ~12% Direct Damage Done (Needs 6666 W/S damage for 12%)
Piercing Cold - 8% Damage Done (Need to be less than 30k HP)
Major Berserk - 10% Damage Done (Wrecking Blow, Saint & Seducer, Sea-Serpent's Coil)
Minor Berserk - 5% Damage Done (Bird of Prey)

Altogether this comes out to 45% damage done. Toss in Minor Vulnerability for -5% damage taken (Swarm) and this should completely counteract the 46% reduced damage, right? This way you can build completely into weapon damage, not nerf your crit damage with malacath (Wardens also get crit damage done with their animal companion passive which can help mitigate the crit damage loss when combined with a battleaxe if using malacath), and have everyone be treated as if they're wearing nothing, or is that wishful thinking?

Thumbless_Bot · March 28

Estin wrote: »

Am I correct in my understanding that % damage done modifies are additive to this? If that is true, would this be a somewhat decent set for a stamden? Here's what I'm thinking

Essence Thief - 10% Damage Done
Merciless Charge - ~12% Direct Damage Done (Needs 6666 W/S damage for 12%)
Piercing Cold - 8% Damage Done (Need to be less than 30k HP)
Major Berserk - 10% Damage Done (Wrecking Blow, Saint & Seducer, Sea-Serpent's Coil)
Minor Berserk - 5% Damage Done (Bird of Prey)

Altogether this comes out to 45% damage done. Toss in Minor Vulnerability for -5% damage taken (Swarm) and this should completely counteract the 46% reduced damage, right? This way you can build completely into weapon damage, not nerf your crit damage with malacath (Wardens also get crit damage done with their animal companion passive which can help mitigate the crit damage loss when combined with a battleaxe if using malacath), and have everyone be treated as if they're wearing nothing, or is that wishful thinking?

Yeah, but it's 45% of the 54% or 23.4% more damage or 77.4%. Keep in mind if you wear this and essence you are getting 77.4% of not a lot.

Essence is 10% of not much if you don't pair it with something that provides damage, like clever. Two lines of stamina from essence isn't going to cut a wet paper sack.

You won't get 12% from merciless.

You will be under 30k health so you will effectively be a glass cannon that shoots frozen green peas.

You can't run dizzy so no off balance. You are left with ssc with that snare that requires you to run two swift negating about half of the major courage provided. Or a one in five chance with s&s and no weapon damage.

Bottom line, 77.4 percent of about 3k weapon damage hits like a wet noodle. It doesn't work, even if you can get all of these things to proc at the same time, like essence and s&s and .major berserk.

Even if you throw in Molag Kena it's still meh. And incredibly difficult to line all of the above up. And get two consecutive light attacks in. Same goes for masters destro... meh.

File this set into the category of extremely underwhelming.

MincMincMinc · March 28

Estin wrote: »

Am I correct in my understanding that % damage done modifies are additive to this? If that is true, would this be a somewhat decent set for a stamden? Here's what I'm thinking

Essence Thief - 10% Damage Done
Merciless Charge - ~12% Direct Damage Done (Needs 6666 W/S damage for 12%)
Piercing Cold - 8% Damage Done (Need to be less than 30k HP)
Major Berserk - 10% Damage Done (Wrecking Blow, Saint & Seducer, Sea-Serpent's Coil)
Minor Berserk - 5% Damage Done (Bird of Prey)

Altogether this comes out to 45% damage done. Toss in Minor Vulnerability for -5% damage taken (Swarm) and this should completely counteract the 46% reduced damage, right? This way you can build completely into weapon damage, not nerf your crit damage with malacath (Wardens also get crit damage done with their animal companion passive which can help mitigate the crit damage loss when combined with a battleaxe if using malacath), and have everyone be treated as if they're wearing nothing, or is that wishful thinking?

There is no cancelling it out. You have to compare two builds side by side. The go to build right now for 2h stam classes is
Stuhns frontbar
Rallying, PA, or selfish set backbar like clever alch powered Ice staff
Bloodspawn or if you are a warden balorgh
Then your choice of mythic (DDF, markyn, SnS)

How does lamp perform, well it would fall into replace stuhns. You cant go and count any buff that also applies to the stuhns build....because you would have it already.

My go to for comparison is with my own spreadsheet that encompasses different stat efficiencies. However a similar tool would be to use the EUSP editor. For an example take this Stamden setup which is top tier for bgs. Then make a copy and replace stuhn with lamp. Then compare the effective power listed on the right.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=653997

Lamp really only works on a class like stamsorc or templar anyways where its hard to keep breach on people.

MincMincMinc · March 28

To go a step further using my UESP for a current meta 2h stamsorc. I can get an effective power of 13027 against a 28k resist player.

For lamp to match this I had to edit the damage done from -46 to -36% damage done
For lamp to match a 22k resist enemy I had to edit it from -46 to -26% damage done

So it seems the middleground I proposed of 30% was pretty spot on. Glad to see the math work out. The only thing this doesnt take into account is being able to drop ele sus for another skill. However stamsorc doesnt have access to another %damage skill so you would likely do a defensive skill or utility.

Urzigurumash · March 29

I think it's best compared against Night Mother's Gaze, in other words it's best viewed as an alternative to NMG

MincMincMinc · March 31

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think it's best compared against Night Mother's Gaze, in other words it's best viewed as an alternative to NMG

yeah and its just as useful as NMG......