Can/will they improve the character creator?

Estin · March 13

I'm almost certain that every race shares the same body with different caps when it comes to sliders, but the head type is usually rather unique between the races to make them distinct enough from one another. You can still get wildly different body types though. I quickly made 2 different khajiits and they look nothing like each other in more than one way. The first one definitely doesn't look gaunt/thin/svelte.

If NPCs all look the same, it's likely because not much time was put into making them unique. If it's players, it can be the same reason, or because nobody necessarily wants to look chubby/thick due it it affecting what armor looks like.

If anything, body models (not face) could get an update to not make them look too polygonal, especially the chest, but that's still a very dangerous game to play because you can end up making something that once looked good to someone look bad. Just look at what happened to pokemon go when they updated their character models. It'll make a lot of people really upset.

TheMajority · March 13

Toanis wrote: »

Here is how another MMO that is totally not using Hero Engine recently modernized their characters.

Next time you meet someone again after 10-20 years, just tell them they look very detailed now

detailed? looks old to me, they ruined that character

NotaDaedraWorshipper · March 13

TheMajority wrote: »

show previous quotes

Toanis wrote: »

Here is how another MMO that is totally not using Hero Engine recently modernized their characters.

Next time you meet someone again after 10-20 years, just tell them they look very detailed now

detailed? looks old to me, they ruined that character

I'm pretty sure that's Toanis point.

ImmortalCX · March 13

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

There should be a couple default race specific personalities that can be replaced with paid ones.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

All I see in the game are barbie doll mannequins. If you want to understand the truth of what I'm saying, the majority of the playerbase hides their character's face with their helm. If the character creator were expressive, people would be proud of their character's face, but they all end up looking pretty much the same by race.

Reading the comments in the section, I think a large part of the playerbase is into the house collecting and barbie doll aspects of the game. I would rather have diversity in the game and be able to instantly recognize races, even when covered in armor. I don't care if an Orc has comically large shoulders, or if an elf even on the fattest setting is always skinnier than a human.

I'm just telling you what I'm seeing after returning to the game after five years. Which is unfortunately what anyone else who tries out ESO will see when they first install it.

ImmortalCX · March 13

Estin wrote: »

I'm almost certain that every race shares the same body with different caps when it comes to sliders, but the head type is usually rather unique between the races to make them distinct enough from one another. You can still get wildly different body types though. I quickly made 2 different khajiits and they look nothing like each other in more than one way. The first one definitely doesn't look gaunt/thin/svelte.

If NPCs all look the same, it's likely because not much time was put into making them unique. If it's players, it can be the same reason, or because nobody necessarily wants to look chubby/thick due it it affecting what armor looks like.

If anything, body models (not face) could get an update to not make them look too polygonal, especially the chest, but that's still a very dangerous game to play because you can end up making something that once looked good to someone look bad. Just look at what happened to pokemon go when they updated their character models. It'll make a lot of people really upset.

The thinnest and fattest settings are still within the middle 70% of what a real person would look like. This is a fantasy game. If I want my warrior to have arms the size of tree trunks I should be able to do that.

TaSheen · March 13

I very seldom see helms on characters, except if fighting in Cyro. None of mine display helms.... I love to look at their faces....

Credible_Joe · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

Estin wrote: »

I'm almost certain that every race shares the same body with different caps when it comes to sliders, but the head type is usually rather unique between the races to make them distinct enough from one another. You can still get wildly different body types though. I quickly made 2 different khajiits and they look nothing like each other in more than one way. The first one definitely doesn't look gaunt/thin/svelte.

If NPCs all look the same, it's likely because not much time was put into making them unique. If it's players, it can be the same reason, or because nobody necessarily wants to look chubby/thick due it it affecting what armor looks like.

If anything, body models (not face) could get an update to not make them look too polygonal, especially the chest, but that's still a very dangerous game to play because you can end up making something that once looked good to someone look bad. Just look at what happened to pokemon go when they updated their character models. It'll make a lot of people really upset.

The thinnest and fattest settings are still within the middle 70% of what a real person would look like. This is a fantasy game. If I want my warrior to have arms the size of tree trunks I should be able to do that.

I've suggested an update for ranges like this in the past, but I didn't convey the initial pitch correctly and people thought I was suggesting NO limits on body slides, allowing for pixie or giant sized characters.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/634648/request-expand-racial-body-slide-constraints#latest

I do think stout / lanky musculature and thin / corpulent body shape should NOT be limited to specific races. Thin, short orcs should be allowed. As well as tall, corpulent bosmer. The default should be set within a range, but an extra unlock button next to each slider should allow for the upper limits set by the max of the most extreme race for that slider.

Estin · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

Estin wrote: »

I'm almost certain that every race shares the same body with different caps when it comes to sliders, but the head type is usually rather unique between the races to make them distinct enough from one another. You can still get wildly different body types though. I quickly made 2 different khajiits and they look nothing like each other in more than one way. The first one definitely doesn't look gaunt/thin/svelte.

If NPCs all look the same, it's likely because not much time was put into making them unique. If it's players, it can be the same reason, or because nobody necessarily wants to look chubby/thick due it it affecting what armor looks like.

If anything, body models (not face) could get an update to not make them look too polygonal, especially the chest, but that's still a very dangerous game to play because you can end up making something that once looked good to someone look bad. Just look at what happened to pokemon go when they updated their character models. It'll make a lot of people really upset.

The thinnest and fattest settings are still within the middle 70% of what a real person would look like. This is a fantasy game. If I want my warrior to have arms the size of tree trunks I should be able to do that.

Not all fantasy games are the same. It depends on the art direction from the beginning. Elder Scrolls has usually always been on the side of realism when it came to how the races are portrayed compared to something like WoW where everyone has massive shoulders and arms.

tomofhyrule · March 13

The racial thing is always a bit of a touchy subject. Frankly, I liked the Oblivion/Morrowind scheme of some races being naturally gifted at certain things (like Orc warriors vs magey Altmer), but I also love people being able to play against stereotypes as well.

The new-DnD-esque “everyone has the same attributes and is functionally the same from the beginning” loses some RP aspects in its strive to remove any hint of racial disparity, but that runs into the issue where a world that is too utopian feel almost… fake in a way. Again, I liked how in TES3/4 all races could get to the same endgame spot regardless, but having racial dispositions and stereotypes (and yes, some horrible characters hurling insults) almost made everything feel more real. The real world is messy after all.

And I love to tell stories with my characters, especially if it involves them having a conflict with their racial- or cultural nature. For example, my main is a short (but absolutely jacked) Orc raised by Nords, so he’s much closer to a Nord mentally and doesn’t really know much about Orc life… but he also had to deal with Nords not liking his tusks unless he was behind the forge, and the DC invasions also make things awkward for him since he’s the only Orc he knows who isn’t hostile to Skyrim. My secondary and tertiary are both Skaal brothers - one went full wolf mode and loves it, even though he knows it’s wrong; and his brother is a former shaman of the Skaal who has to deal with being kidnapped by a Black Book and needs to use Mora’s own perverse power against him. The shaman is also super smart and has a photographic memory, but his brother is a bit more stereotypical in that Rigurt is a genius compared to him. I also have a young hotheaded Reachman who may have some secret Daedric power inside him, an escaped slave of the Telvanni who could give Mortal Kombat ideas on how to end people, a half-Altmer born to a Kinlady who slept with (scandal!) a Breton farmer so she grew up Breton, and a Maormer who was betrayed by his own people because he likes Altmer a little too much… which led to his last girlfriend stabbing him in the back, almost literally. And I do have another character begging me to start writing his backstory, so I need a new class ASAP so I can patch a few holes to get him started.

ZOS_Kevin · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

One thing that would really invigorate the game is updating the character creator and character models to look better. Ten years ago, ESO looked great compared to other MMO. Skyrim character creator was state of the art and ESO gave similar results.

Today, there isn't enough diversity in character models. My opinion is that characters all look gaunt and skinny, and its hard to differentiate different races. Even if you max the sliders, your character stills looks pretty svelte.

Has there been any talk of this? I think this would go farther than any other upgrade. NPCs could all use the old models, but player characters deserve special treatment.

Hi All, thanks for the question. So this can be answered in two different ways.
Can they improve the character creator? Yes, there is always room to improve things. Though that comes with the caveat that several folks have mentioned already, is that it would likely impact existing characters to some degree as well. But that is something for the team to figure out and solve.

Will they improve the character creator? Right now the focus is on bringing some of the most requested features and addressing the most requested bugs and pain points that players have mentioned in the existing thread on that topic. Updates to the character creator is something can definitely be addressed down the line, but we would like to knock out some of the feature pain points first before adding anything else to the equation.

Hollyniss · March 13

I'd love more options for character creation (even an overhaul if possible) but without changing current characters for those who like the way they look. At least add more options and better textures. A lot of the current textures and shapes are rather rough; visible neck seams, polygons, jagged edges, ect. As long as they don't do what SWTOR did and make characters appear older, for some reason they thought better skin textures=wrinkles...How they thought that was a good idea is beyond me...Especially when there is no current way to revert it and it's going to carry over to ALL races (even after people complained on the test servers). So, I hope that if ESO does update the textures and character creation they do it RIGHT. Do it right or not at all. Have it tested sufficiently on test servers first and actually listen to the feedback before making any major changes to the game.

ImmortalCX · March 13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

One thing that would really invigorate the game is updating the character creator and character models to look better. Ten years ago, ESO looked great compared to other MMO. Skyrim character creator was state of the art and ESO gave similar results.

Today, there isn't enough diversity in character models. My opinion is that characters all look gaunt and skinny, and its hard to differentiate different races. Even if you max the sliders, your character stills looks pretty svelte.

Has there been any talk of this? I think this would go farther than any other upgrade. NPCs could all use the old models, but player characters deserve special treatment.

Hi All, thanks for the question. So this can be answered in two different ways.
Can they improve the character creator? Yes, there is always room to improve things. Though that comes with the caveat that several folks have mentioned already, is that it would likely impact existing characters to some degree as well. But that is something for the team to figure out and solve.

Will they improve the character creator? Right now the focus is on bringing some of the most requested features and addressing the most requested bugs and pain points that players have mentioned in the existing thread on that topic. Updates to the character creator is something can definitely be addressed down the line, but we would like to knock out some of the feature pain points first before adding anything else to the equation.

Its hard for developers to see things with fresh eyes, after all they have been working with it every day.

I'm just trying to communicate what an average (experienced) gamer sees when he loads the game for the first time. And character creation in a RPG is the thing that draws a person in.

I know its probably an impossible task with current development resources.

Also I think the people playing "barbie dollhouse" don't want to see freakish looking characters that would threaten the equilibrium.

But if you want to grow the player base, this is where you should be looking. The game has tons of great content, great systems, the graphics are respectable, etc. But the character models and character creator make the game look like a legacy product.

McMasterx · March 13

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

Lmfao, I feel called out XD

NotaDaedraWorshipper · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

There should be a couple default race specific personalities that can be replaced with paid ones.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

This would be awful. Like how would it fit a bosmer to have some stiff posture the same way as dunmer and altmer? Why would some Colovian imperial soldier swagger and bounce? Why would an orc be scratching themselves and fussing with clothes? Are you suggesting they have lice? Khajiit are a proud spiritual people, not actual cats going to pounce on the nearest bug. Would absolutely ruin all of my characters appearances and look unimmersive and tacky.

Races shouldn't have some default idles. Even less so ones you would need to pay money for to change.

We just need more personalities, especially ones obtainable in the game, and no they should not be race restricted.

emilyhyoyeon · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

ImmortalCX · March 13

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

I'm sorry but I'm not up on the ESO lore, even having several thousand hours. Part of the problem is that despite having 2500 hours, all the different races, including NPCs have the same general appearance, expecially when covered with a helm. The only time I have ever gotten a feel for a race was when an actor in an NPC quest chain gave a good performance. Except Lyris, she did not have any Nord mannerisms or inflection in her voice.

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins.

The people playing Barbie seem to be in control. The default for every race is a mannequin with sliders that fall well within the bounds of normal human expression. Most people who are buying cosmetics seem to be creating barbie dolls.

disky · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

But if you want to grow the player base, this is where you should be looking. The game has tons of great content, great systems, the graphics are respectable, etc. But the character models and character creator make the game look like a legacy product.

I really don't think the character creator is bad at all. The models and textures could do with more detail and maybe some of the sliders could use a bit of extra range, but I've really enjoyed creating characters in this game. It's not Black Desert Online, Dragon's Dogma 2 or Crusader Kings 3, but I feel like it's far above average, especially for MMOs. I've always had fun with it and this is coming from someone who takes great pride in his characters, to the point of deleting and recreating multiple times until I get it right.

Actually, if there were one single change I'd like to make, it would be the ability to save a look in order to come back to it later, in case I want to keep working on a look, delete and recreate, or duplicate it to another character.

Estin · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

I'm sorry but I'm not up on the ESO lore, even having several thousand hours. Part of the problem is that despite having 2500 hours, all the different races, including NPCs have the same general appearance, expecially when covered with a helm. The only time I have ever gotten a feel for a race was when an actor in an NPC quest chain gave a good performance. Except Lyris, she did not have any Nord mannerisms or inflection in her voice.

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins.

The people playing Barbie seem to be in control. The default for every race is a mannequin with sliders that fall well within the bounds of normal human expression. Most people who are buying cosmetics seem to be creating barbie dolls.

You have strange fixation with saying barbie dolls to anyone who is disagreeing. I go back to what I said before. Elder Scrolls, not just ESO specifically, but Elder Scrolls in general, has usually always been on the side of realisim. There hasn't been any freakish, overly proportionate anatomy in any of the games outside of non daedric races that don't take the appearance of mortals. ESO, and even Elder Scrolls in general, is not the same type of fantasy as WoW, and it does not need to be either to be enjoyable. To solve the stiff, upright posture as the default look, ZOS can just provide more normalized personalities that are earnable outside of events, purchase, or hard achievements. I think there's only 4 personalities that are always available.

ImmortalCX · March 13

Estin wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

I'm sorry but I'm not up on the ESO lore, even having several thousand hours. Part of the problem is that despite having 2500 hours, all the different races, including NPCs have the same general appearance, expecially when covered with a helm. The only time I have ever gotten a feel for a race was when an actor in an NPC quest chain gave a good performance. Except Lyris, she did not have any Nord mannerisms or inflection in her voice.

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins.

The people playing Barbie seem to be in control. The default for every race is a mannequin with sliders that fall well within the bounds of normal human expression. Most people who are buying cosmetics seem to be creating barbie dolls.

You have strange fixation with saying barbie dolls to anyone who is disagreeing. I go back to what I said before. Elder Scrolls, not just ESO specifically, but Elder Scrolls in general, has usually always been on the side of realisim. There hasn't been any freakish, overly proportionate anatomy in any of the games outside of non daedric races that don't take the appearance of mortals. ESO, and even Elder Scrolls in general, is not the same type of fantasy as WoW, and it does not need to be either to be enjoyable. To solve the stiff, upright posture as the default look, ZOS can just provide more normalized personalities that are earnable outside of events, purchase, or hard achievements. I think there's only 4 personalities that are always available.

The microtransactions are the root of the problem. This is why I'm calling to "playing barbie". People are not paying for customizations that make their characters ugly. Let me quote myself, as it encapsulates the problem:

"Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins."

If WOW made an undead race hunched over and with wormy skin, players would just apply the duchess personality and a golden skin and it would look just like any other endgame human/elf/orc.

The housing/cosmetics/barbie aspect of ESO is stronger than the PVP/trials/endgame aspects. I remember now why I quit five years ago.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll.

Orcs should not have hulking shoulders. Not only does it look awful, but also Orsimer are not Warcraft orcs.

It's funny you say WoW did it right, because I used to play WoW for many years and me and a big, loud majority absolutely hated how all male orcs, tauren, trolls, and undead suffered from extreme kyphosis. Something their female counterparts didn't, or at least not even close to the same digree. Many npcs of those races with unique models, such as Thrall didn't have it either. Another thing that was hated was how undead were missing flesh on big chunks of their elbows, knees and spines, which even affected their clothes/armour (which doesn't make any sense). Think it's only recently that is now an option to change and have flesh-filled joints.

Edit: Adding further to this. I know WoW has racial idle animations, and that too I know so many people was bothered by. Especially for some races, like how female night elves regularly does this annoying cheerful bouncing, that does not match the lore and charactersation of that race at all.

Frankly it's starting to sound you want ESO to be WoW, which is something it isn't, and if that's what you want WoW exist for you to play.

thejadefalcon · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I remember now why I quit five years ago.

This is part of the problem with this thread. If someone came to a game you enjoyed after having not played for half a decade and demanded changes that don't make any objective sense, and are frankly kind of offensively shallow and questionable, how would you feel? Would you welcome their feedback? I doubt it.

I've never played WoW. They should get rid of the long ears on elves. They look ridiculous, who could possibly play a game that looks like that?

ESO_player123 · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

Estin wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

I'm sorry but I'm not up on the ESO lore, even having several thousand hours. Part of the problem is that despite having 2500 hours, all the different races, including NPCs have the same general appearance, expecially when covered with a helm. The only time I have ever gotten a feel for a race was when an actor in an NPC quest chain gave a good performance. Except Lyris, she did not have any Nord mannerisms or inflection in her voice.

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins.

The people playing Barbie seem to be in control. The default for every race is a mannequin with sliders that fall well within the bounds of normal human expression. Most people who are buying cosmetics seem to be creating barbie dolls.

You have strange fixation with saying barbie dolls to anyone who is disagreeing. I go back to what I said before. Elder Scrolls, not just ESO specifically, but Elder Scrolls in general, has usually always been on the side of realisim. There hasn't been any freakish, overly proportionate anatomy in any of the games outside of non daedric races that don't take the appearance of mortals. ESO, and even Elder Scrolls in general, is not the same type of fantasy as WoW, and it does not need to be either to be enjoyable. To solve the stiff, upright posture as the default look, ZOS can just provide more normalized personalities that are earnable outside of events, purchase, or hard achievements. I think there's only 4 personalities that are always available.

The microtransactions are the root of the problem. This is why I'm calling to "playing barbie". People are not paying for customizations that make their characters ugly. Let me quote myself, as it encapsulates the problem:

"Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins."

If WOW made an undead race hunched over and with wormy skin, players would just apply the duchess personality and a golden skin and it would look just like any other endgame human/elf/orc.

The housing/cosmetics/barbie aspect of ESO is stronger than the PVP/trials/endgame aspects. I remember now why I quit five years ago.

What do PVP/trials/endgame aspects have to do with the topic of your thread which is essentially about cosmetics?

As another poster above mentioned, the changes that you proposed for Orcs and Khajiit (scratching and crouching for pouncing) do not represent the aforementioned races in the Elder Scrolls universe. So, it would look even worse for many people than the duchess personality you seem to have issues with.

ImmortalCX · March 13

thejadefalcon wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I remember now why I quit five years ago.

This is part of the problem with this thread. If someone came to a game you enjoyed after having not played for half a decade and demanded changes that don't make any objective sense, and are frankly kind of offensively shallow and questionable, how would you feel? Would you welcome their feedback? I doubt it.

I've never played WoW. They should get rid of the long ears on elves. They look ridiculous, who could possibly play a game that looks like that?

I represent a fresh set of eyes, but also have history with the game so understand why it is. The game has fallen behind in the character creator, which really diminishes the initial impression new players will have.

But I also understand that the game is completely microtransaction/cosmetics driven. I had forgotten this about ESO in my excitement to check it out again. This is the ultimate problem. Progression is mostly horizontal and paid cosmetic rewards are better than anything you can achieve in game.

I think the situation they are in is that they can't replace an outdated cosmetics system when it has been their bread and butter these past years. It wasn't this way in 2016-18 iirc. But by 2019 it certainly had gone that direction.

People who don't want it improved are hoping for it to remain their same old barbie dollhouse simulator in perpetuity. I think the game systems and volume of content deserves better. There are players who theorycraft and respect the systems. Then there are the people deep into the housing and cosmetics. I think ESO found its niche with the latter group and let PVP players migrate to New World or other systems. Raiders are going to be playing WOW revival. ESO is a microtransaction cosmetics game built upon what once was some good systems.

ImmortalCX · March 13

ESO_player123 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that it would be helpful for the OP to give examples of the range of options they want, because (as this thread already shows) a lot of people think you can get very different looking characters from the current character creator, so this sounds like a redundant request.

(Also bear in mind ESO is intended to look more realistic than many MMOs so you're not going to get big exaggerated cartoon features here.)

I also agree that if more options are added it needs to be in a way that doesn't change existing characters, because I'm not adverse to new options but I like how my current characters look and don't want them all changed, even if someone else considers it an "upgrade".

Each race should have its own passive movements and mannerisms. An orc with " duchess" emote is not an orc. Its a duchess. An orc without a personality is just a generic humanoid with weird teeth. Each race should have default mannerisms.

I don't get this. Not every individual of a race necessarily grows up in the same culture, location, etc.

I get that a default isn't necessarily implying that every character is like that, but an orc with the duchess personality is definitely still an orc, and I don't want the game to put mannerisms on my character by default if I'm not given other free options. I would rather them be default blank.

I have many altmer characters and they all were raised in different provinces and cultures and have different mannerisms.
I have a khajiit character that was raised in imperial and argonian culture. I have an argonian who was raised in imperial culture. I have an altmer that was raised in dunmer culture.

I'm all for making a pack of 5 or so basic personalities (as in the cosmetic) be free to players though so there's fewer barbie-standing people everywhere.

But I'd rather have 5 neutral barbie-standing altmer than 5 haughty and prideful (I guess?) standing altmer when none, maybe one, of my altmer even have that personality.

A khajit should always be crouched and a little closer to the ground like they are ready to pounce.

And Orc should have bold and direct movements and always be scratching and fussing with his clothes.

Argonians need a personality where their tail is a big part of their body language.

Humans should have some swagger and bounce.

Elves are the ones who fit the stiff barbie doll posture everyone is given by default.

Eh, you lost me here, especially with the implied lumping of bosmer with altmer lol

I'm sorry but I'm not up on the ESO lore, even having several thousand hours. Part of the problem is that despite having 2500 hours, all the different races, including NPCs have the same general appearance, expecially when covered with a helm. The only time I have ever gotten a feel for a race was when an actor in an NPC quest chain gave a good performance. Except Lyris, she did not have any Nord mannerisms or inflection in her voice.

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins.

The people playing Barbie seem to be in control. The default for every race is a mannequin with sliders that fall well within the bounds of normal human expression. Most people who are buying cosmetics seem to be creating barbie dolls.

You have strange fixation with saying barbie dolls to anyone who is disagreeing. I go back to what I said before. Elder Scrolls, not just ESO specifically, but Elder Scrolls in general, has usually always been on the side of realisim. There hasn't been any freakish, overly proportionate anatomy in any of the games outside of non daedric races that don't take the appearance of mortals. ESO, and even Elder Scrolls in general, is not the same type of fantasy as WoW, and it does not need to be either to be enjoyable. To solve the stiff, upright posture as the default look, ZOS can just provide more normalized personalities that are earnable outside of events, purchase, or hard achievements. I think there's only 4 personalities that are always available.

The microtransactions are the root of the problem. This is why I'm calling to "playing barbie". People are not paying for customizations that make their characters ugly. Let me quote myself, as it encapsulates the problem:

"Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll. Then someone would apply the duchess or seductress personality to them and they would look like every other character running those personality with the same paid skins."

If WOW made an undead race hunched over and with wormy skin, players would just apply the duchess personality and a golden skin and it would look just like any other endgame human/elf/orc.

The housing/cosmetics/barbie aspect of ESO is stronger than the PVP/trials/endgame aspects. I remember now why I quit five years ago.

What do PVP/trials/endgame aspects have to do with the topic of your thread which is essentially about cosmetics?

Because the game has migrated away from systems and towards cosmetics. If the game was based around systems (trials, PVP campaigns) and was primarily played by those groups, then it would be easier to update the character creator.

But once people have spent hundreds/thousands of dollars tweaking their characters, they can't disrupt that system. This is a side effect of it being a microtransaction cosmetics game.

ImmortalCX · March 13

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

show previous quotes

ImmortalCX wrote: »

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll.

Orcs should not have hulking shoulders. Not only does it look awful, but also Orsimer are not Warcraft orcs.

It's funny you say WoW did it right, because I used to play WoW for many years and me and a big, loud majority absolutely hated how all male orcs, tauren, trolls, and undead suffered from extreme kyphosis. Something their female counterparts didn't, or at least not even close to the same digree. Many npcs of those races with unique models, such as Thrall didn't have it either. Another thing that was hated was how undead were missing flesh on big chunks of their elbows, knees and spines, which even affected their clothes/armour (which doesn't make any sense). Think it's only recently that is now an option to change and have flesh-filled joints.

Edit: Adding further to this. I know WoW has racial idle animations, and that too I know so many people was bothered by. Especially for some races, like how female night elves regularly does this annoying cheerful bouncing, that does not match the lore and charactersation of that race at all.

Frankly it's starting to sound you want ESO to be WoW, which is something it isn't, and if that's what you want WoW exist for you to play.

When you were playing WOW, you could instantly look at another player and know what race they were. That's not possible in ESO, which is the problem.

If you think ESO has done it right, and is better than WOW, then I guess you are in the right place. But subscription numbers would tell us their art team achieved something spectacular.

I love ESO but kinda loathe what it has become. At its core it is a microtransaction game which caters to certain kinds of content.

Danikat · March 13

You say you have a history with the game, but admit you don't know about the lore, in spite of declaring yourself the arbiter of what appearence and poses are appropriate for each race. You dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as "playing barbie dress up" and not being real 'experienced' gamers like you, but you're only able to articulate your point as "make it look like WoW because that's what I'm used to".

Honestly you'd be more likely to get support for your idea if you weren't so condescending about it, and tried to understand that different art styles and especially lore are valid and different people will genuinely like different things. At the moment it comes across as if you have very little experience with MMOs or RPGs outside the one game and you're getting thrown off by things being different.

Edit: Also if you're experience with ESO is from when it launched you might remember that the races and character creator were the same before the game had any microtransactions, and the decision on the art style was made when they were intending to make a 100% subscription based game with no microtransactions or additional costs, before they discovered there wasn't enough demand for that. I know "it sucks because of monetisation" seems like a safe, easy win when complaining about any game, but in this case it makes no sense which makes it a pretty weak argument.

thejadefalcon · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

When you were playing WOW, you could instantly look at another player and know what race they were. That's not possible in ESO, which is the problem.

Then you're simply not paying attention. You yourself have admitted that you don't know the races well enough. As someone who does, you can tell all of them apart, even the different humans.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

When you were playing WOW, you could instantly look at another player and know what race they were. That's not possible in ESO, which is the problem.

That sounds like a skill issue. I'm perfectly capable of telling what the races are in ESO by looking at them, more so than in any other Elder Scrolls game.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

If you think ESO has done it right, and is better than WOW, then I guess you are in the right place. But subscription numbers would tell us their art team achieved something spectacular.

I'm not saying either is done right, I'm saying they are different games with different styles and different setting/lore. That's how it should be and remain. People subscribing less has nothing to do with races...crouching slightly as an idle, or whatever.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I love ESO but kinda loathe what it has become. At its core it is a microtransaction game which caters to certain kinds of content.

You say you love ESO and say you have all this history with it, but previously you also said you don't know the lore. So far you only come across as condescending and ignorant of this game you supposedly have so much time with and love for.

Estin · March 13

ImmortalCX wrote: »

show previous quotes

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

My point was that I would rather have things that differentiate the different races, including hulking shoulders on Orcs, visible mannerisms and tics, than the current system where everyone is stiff as a board.

Look at WOW, they did it right. For instance, their undead race has human models who are hunched over so they look more corpse like and reanimated. If ESO tried to do an undead race, they would all be upright, stiff as a board, and have the same body dimensions as a human, but with different skin textures, that players would eventually cover with skins they purchased so they didn't look undead, but instead like a barbie doll.

Orcs should not have hulking shoulders. Not only does it look awful, but also Orsimer are not Warcraft orcs.

It's funny you say WoW did it right, because I used to play WoW for many years and me and a big, loud majority absolutely hated how all male orcs, tauren, trolls, and undead suffered from extreme kyphosis. Something their female counterparts didn't, or at least not even close to the same digree. Many npcs of those races with unique models, such as Thrall didn't have it either. Another thing that was hated was how undead were missing flesh on big chunks of their elbows, knees and spines, which even affected their clothes/armour (which doesn't make any sense). Think it's only recently that is now an option to change and have flesh-filled joints.

Edit: Adding further to this. I know WoW has racial idle animations, and that too I know so many people was bothered by. Especially for some races, like how female night elves regularly does this annoying cheerful bouncing, that does not match the lore and charactersation of that race at all.

Frankly it's starting to sound you want ESO to be WoW, which is something it isn't, and if that's what you want WoW exist for you to play.

When you were playing WOW, you could instantly look at another player and know what race they were. That's not possible in ESO, which is the problem.

If you think ESO has done it right, and is better than WOW, then I guess you are in the right place. But subscription numbers would tell us their art team achieved something spectacular.

I love ESO but kinda loathe what it has become. At its core it is a microtransaction game which caters to certain kinds of content.

The only races that are hard to tell apart are Breton and Imperial because they're the only two purely humanoid looking races. At a glance, you can throw in Nord as well, but Nords are still rather distinguishable due to being bulkier and ragged hair styles. Redguards only real giveaway are their skin color which is easily recognizable.

It's easy to spot if someone is a Khajiit or Argonian. Look at their backside. Do they have a tail? If yes, then they're a beast race. Is their tail thin or thick? If it's thin, it's Khajiit, if it's thick, it's Argonian. Both easy to spot instantly.

Between elves, Altmer are the tallest race in the game. If you see someone if is very tall, 9/10 they're an Altmer. Their gold skin is the other way to distinguish them. Bosmer are the smallest race in the game, even at max slider height. Seeing anyone that is smaller than your character by a considerable amount, 9/10 they're a Bosmer. The only other way to know is by their black eyes. Dunmer are regular human sized, and their only real giveaway are their skin color which is also easily recognizable.

Orcs are very muscular, and it's easy to see that they're green or have tusk teeth.

When covered in armor and a helmet, only Breton, Imperial, Nord, Redguard, Dunmer, and Orc are hard to distinguish from one another, but if you do the same IRL, it would also be hard to distinguish one race from another. ES has always tried to have a realistic art style, even as far back as arena. It was never meant to be cartoonish like WoW or.

If you look at the other popular MMO available, FF14, you can see that game has the same "problem" as ESO. The humanoid races look similar to one another. The only outliers are the beast races and lalafel

Also, I highly doubt art direction has anything to do with subscription numbers. If it did, games like OSRS would never have had any players.

Credible_Joe · March 13

I've been skimming the discourse and I see two camps here.

People that want to set their characters appearance (mostly) irrespective of race
People that want to be able to easily identify any character's race by distinctive silhouette

Now, I don't wanna get too controversial, but, uh... Just exaggerate both of these sentiments. See which one taken far enough becomes problematic.

I get that a lot of us here see.. particular dynamics in other MMOs as definitive of the genre. But at their core, those dynamics are vectors of division and can lead to pretty toxic behavior.

Personally, I'm glad the game launched with cross-alliance races. That was a good decision. Butting heads with your fellow players based on alliance is often done in decent enough spirit. It can get out of hand at times, especially since it's only really relevant in PvP, and that can spiral into toxic reall quick, let me tell you.

But I'm imagining right now how much worse it would be if races were unilaterally locked by alliance, and hoo boy. I am glad today for what we've got.

I say let us blur the lines. We shouldn't have to constrain our characters based on limits set by averages according to lore. Some bosmer are freakishly tall, just like some people. Some orcs are scrawny, just like some people. Limiting how we define our characters is diametrically opposed to what Elder Scrolls is all about.