Should ball groups violate TOS?

Kiyakotari · March 10

So if we see PvP as a simulation of IRL combat, which it essentially is (albeit with magic added in), your argument is that strategy and organized group tactics should not be allowed in that simulated environment because they give the people using them an advantage over people who don't use them? Soldiers should not be permitted to have a commanding officer giving orders on how to move and where to go, and what attacks to employ, and when? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

SerafinaWaterstar · March 10

Ball groups do not fight fair. Or play the objectives. They are selfish players.

They like to farm lone or unco-ordinated groups of players.
They grab scrolls to just farm AP, not place & give points to their alliance; same with keeps - will get in (sometimes taking advantage of another alliance & their effort sieging) & not take the keep but farm AP.
As soon as the opposition shows they can deal with them, they cut and run, never standing to fight.

I am grateful we don’t have toxic ball groups on AD on PSEU - we play to win the campaign & have fun doing so.

BXR_Lonestar · March 10

@LadyGP

First off, the way we stack heals, mitigation, and synergies isn’t some glitch or exploit. It’s just group coordination, using mechanics that have been in ESO forever. AoE healing and buffs are designed to support teamwork—that’s why they exist. We’re not doing anything the game doesn’t allow; we’re just leaning hard into the systems and practicing a lot to make it work. It’s less about “unintended interactions” and more about understanding how skills can complement each other when you’ve got a tight crew.

People are also forgetting that if they're playing in a large disorganized group and multiple people are running Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor, they are also getting the benefit of heal stacking. They just aren't getting the benefit of any group buffs that could be had it those pugs were grouped together.

As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable. First I would argue that ballgroups die like everyone else when you know what you are doing and how to fight them. but secondly, what makes ballgroups hard to kill is that they typically have more healers than your average pug group (I hear groups have as many as 6, but mine does not run that many, but we still run more than 1 healer). so when you guys are in a position to ulti-dump on the ball group (if you can even coordinate an ultidump amongst a bunch of random players), you don't have enough damage to overwhelm the amount of shields and burst heals (non-hot abilities like combat prayer, hasty prayer, corrupting buds, healthy offering, etc.) to bring them down when all those heals are being cast in one area. And there is nothing exploitive or wrong with that - that is just good healing - just like you would burst heal people in a trial during a burst damage phase.

Vulsahdaal · March 10

Kiyakotari wrote: »

So if we see PvP as a simulation of IRL combat, which it essentially is (albeit with magic added in), your argument is that strategy and organized group tactics should not be allowed in that simulated environment because they give the people using them an advantage over people who don't use them? Soldiers should not be permitted to have a commanding officer giving orders on how to move and where to go, and what attacks to employ, and when? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

Soldiers can have a commanding officer, but I don’t see ball groups as soldiers. They are more like a rogue group with no intention of playing the map, or helping their own faction. They are out for themselves, with their own agenda that benefits them alone, which often ends up hurting their own faction.

LadyGP · March 10

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@LadyGP

First off, the way we stack heals, mitigation, and synergies isn’t some glitch or exploit. It’s just group coordination, using mechanics that have been in ESO forever. AoE healing and buffs are designed to support teamwork—that’s why they exist. We’re not doing anything the game doesn’t allow; we’re just leaning hard into the systems and practicing a lot to make it work. It’s less about “unintended interactions” and more about understanding how skills can complement each other when you’ve got a tight crew.

People are also forgetting that if they're playing in a large disorganized group and multiple people are running Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor, they are also getting the benefit of heal stacking. They just aren't getting the benefit of any group buffs that could be had it those pugs were grouped together.

As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable. First I would argue that ballgroups die like everyone else when you know what you are doing and how to fight them. but secondly, what makes ballgroups hard to kill is that they typically have more healers than your average pug group (I hear groups have as many as 6, but mine does not run that many, but we still run more than 1 healer). so when you guys are in a position to ulti-dump on the ball group (if you can even coordinate an ultidump amongst a bunch of random players), you don't have enough damage to overwhelm the amount of shields and burst heals (non-hot abilities like combat prayer, hasty prayer, corrupting buds, healthy offering, etc.) to bring them down when all those heals are being cast in one area. And there is nothing exploitive or wrong with that - that is just good healing - just like you would burst heal people in a trial during a burst damage phase.

Very good point. When I'm not running in a ball group I run solo and spam heals on people - mainly look for large clusters and burst them when they get almost bombed - and I'm confident those pugs have no idea how they survived lol.

Killing a ball group just comes down to timing and laying dps at the right moment against them. The problem is the pugs/solos just spam dps on them and it's easy to shake it off. A good /yell in chat push on 3... can do the trick if you play it right.

zaria · March 10

JavaRen wrote: »

So your position is that organized teamwork should be prohibited? Just looking for clarification.

This one offer you lots of drinks 😺

Iriidius · March 10

huskandhunger wrote: »

💯

Stridig wrote: »

Erissime wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that - fits exactly that. Baiting being the nr 1 tactic of these groups. Balls do NOT seek fair fights ( if they were they wouldn't be ballgroups to begin with lol) - they only seek to kill and farm ap. The problem with them being that while you THINK you are not disrupting anyone's game, mayhap think again when the cap of an alliance is of about 100 ppl, and at least 20 (or more - sometimes WAY more like half of those!) - are ballgroups - and these groups hinder both the opposite alliances as well as their own! How is that not disruptive of the game? Especially when they absolutely do NOT like being countered, and the moment they as much as sense one or few players capable of disrupting THEM they stoop to 12 vs1 with no problem! Never mind examples of behaviour I have shared above, what with scrolls baiting, keeps baiting, and the like. Are these groups a problem for the more seasoned players? No. As it was already said, there are ways to counter these groups , and plenty of players who know how, for ballgroups do fall just like anyone else indeed. Is this fair for everybody else's game? Well I suppose the rage already displayed around speaks on its own. And believe you me, I am not one to be enraged by ball-groups. Just dissapointed of the levels of round-about ways to beat a system people keep finding, only and only to get a win, even if just a game.

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?

The multitarget sets, heals/shields and buffskills ballgroup members share with their group without splitting the effect so everyone gets full effect more than make up for ballgroups numeric disadvantage. The first quote shows how many stats a ballgroup can get from only 6 sets and they use many more sets giving their effect to whole group and they also share Heals/shields and buffs from skills.
Usually ballgroups end up fighting multiple times their numbers because they farmed lower numbers without trying to end the fight by lit/taking the keep until the whole faction arrives as every other fight they were involved ended before the ballgroup one. If bgs get carried to 5 times their strength by tools random cant use Fighting 3-4 times your number is still unfair and there is guarantee players use this strength to fight outnumbered at all and not overrun outnumbered opponents themselve.
Ballgroups still rarely let soloplayer/smaller groups avoid them.

RaikaNA · March 10

Erissime wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that - fits exactly that. Baiting being the nr 1 tactic of these groups. Balls do NOT seek fair fights ( if they were they wouldn't be ballgroups to begin with lol) - they only seek to kill and farm ap. The problem with them being that while you THINK you are not disrupting anyone's game, mayhap think again when the cap of an alliance is of about 100 ppl, and at least 20 (or more - sometimes WAY more like half of those!) - are ballgroups - and these groups hinder both the opposite alliances as well as their own! How is that not disruptive of the game? Especially when they absolutely do NOT like being countered, and the moment they as much as sense one or few players capable of disrupting THEM they stoop to 12 vs1 with no problem! Never mind examples of behaviour I have shared above, what with scrolls baiting, keeps baiting, and the like. Are these groups a problem for the more seasoned players? No. As it was already said, there are ways to counter these groups , and plenty of players who know how, for ballgroups do fall just like anyone else indeed. Is this fair for everybody else's game? Well I suppose the rage already displayed around speaks on its own. And believe you me, I am not one to be enraged by ball-groups. Just dissapointed of the levels of round-about ways to beat a system people keep finding, only and only to get a win, even if just a game.

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?[/quote]

Rarely do I see ballgroups fighting other ballgroups. It's only pugs that they go after.. How is that a fair fight? Ballgroups also takes scrolls and has no intentions of running the scroll back to their faction's temple... only farming AP with it. I've seen this with my own set of eyes. This is griefing at a high degree.

Nydarisa · March 10

Most if what of what I would say has been said, but i want to respond to the claim that ball groups are all selfish, dont play the map, never play other ball groups, and cannot be killed.

Each and every one of these statements are false.

I am sure there are *some* groups that fit those profiles, but many others so not so please do not paint with such a broad brush.

Since joining a ball group, every raid I am in we have supported faction objectives, engaged in GvG (and sometimes GvGvG), and have passed by small group RSS farmers or other low threat players in favor of large battles.

Do we fight the Zerg who is also trying to take the objective we are on? You betcha.
Do we chase down the hammer? Of course!
Do we go after that small man that wants to gank us, the lone enemy that remains and runs to set up a camp? Absolutely.

And do we die? ohhhh yea. We die. Just like all of the other players we are, in fact, absolutely killable.

WaywardArgonian · March 10

RaikaNA wrote: »

Rarely do I see ballgroups fighting other ballgroups. It's only pugs that they go after.

There are 2 reasons why you don't see ballgroups fight other ballgroups.

The first one is what you might suspect: some ballgroups only fight pugs and do not want to do GvGs, for whatever reason.

The second reason is that there are in fact a lot of ballgroups who fight other ballgroups nearly every run, but they specifically move to a quieter area with level ground away from 'traffic'. This is done both because it reduces lag and because all it takes is one random with a coldfire ballista to ruin an evenly matched GvG.

Ballgroups typically don't push other ballgroups inside keeps either because it can be risky to attack another ballgroup when you have 10 sieges on you from randoms, or because it is considered poor taste to zerg down another ballgroup with your entire alliance behind you. Such actions usually lead to reprecussions.

Now, this may differ per server and per campaign - I have noticed for instance that, on average, NA ballgroups have a lot less decorum than those on EU - but just because you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Most ballgroups go to considerable lengths to avoid their own alliance, to a point where some people mistakenly think their alliance is the only one that doesn't have ballgroups.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable.

It is, though. Try running green vigor on everyone and see what it does to group survivability, even with multiple dedicated healers in the group.

BXR_Lonestar · March 11

Nydarisa wrote: »

Most if what of what I would say has been said, but i want to respond to the claim that ball groups are all selfish, dont play the map, never play other ball groups, and cannot be killed.

Each and every one of these statements are false.

I am sure there are *some* groups that fit those profiles, but many others so not so please do not paint with such a broad brush.

Since joining a ball group, every raid I am in we have supported faction objectives, engaged in GvG (and sometimes GvGvG), and have passed by small group RSS farmers or other low threat players in favor of large battles.

Do we fight the Zerg who is also trying to take the objective we are on? You betcha.
Do we chase down the hammer? Of course!
Do we go after that small man that wants to gank us, the lone enemy that remains and runs to set up a camp? Absolutely.

And do we die? ohhhh yea. We die. Just like all of the other players we are, in fact, absolutely killable.

I'll admit that many times my ballgroup just head hunts. We look for fights, we look for other ballgroups that we like to fight and kill (and are good competition), and we kill basically anything else that gets in our way. But the caveat is that in my home campaign, nobody has been competitive with Red in virtually every campaign for the last year because Red has a 15-30 man night crew that zergs the map when its empty and red holds the map unchallenged for sometimes up to 10-12 hours a night. The campaign is not an achievable objective anymore, so why not just play like a wrecking ball?

The campaigns that we have won in the past year - we were pushing the map and working with other ball groups. But many of those groups have dissipated, broken up, gone to play other campaigns, gone to play other colors, etc.

BXR_Lonestar · March 11

@WaywardArgonian

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »
As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable.

It is, though. Try running green vigor on everyone and see what it does to group survivability, even with multiple dedicated healers in the group.

That is a personal skill choice though. When you run green vigor (selfish) instead of yellow vigor (group heal) you are making the choice to prioritize your own survival over helping other players. Which is fine if you are on a brawler build built to fight 1v1. But then don't get mad when you can't fight a group of twelve.

You could easily switch the morph of the skill at a shrine for 1k gold and then enjoy the benefits of heal stacking in a pug group - assuming that others are doing the same. And if they're not, then that is really the route of the problem: you have a coordinated group vs a group of individuals who aren't really playing together, and then again, in that situation, you can't complain that you can't beat them.

BXR_Lonestar · March 11

LadyGP wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@LadyGP

First off, the way we stack heals, mitigation, and synergies isn’t some glitch or exploit. It’s just group coordination, using mechanics that have been in ESO forever. AoE healing and buffs are designed to support teamwork—that’s why they exist. We’re not doing anything the game doesn’t allow; we’re just leaning hard into the systems and practicing a lot to make it work. It’s less about “unintended interactions” and more about understanding how skills can complement each other when you’ve got a tight crew.

People are also forgetting that if they're playing in a large disorganized group and multiple people are running Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor, they are also getting the benefit of heal stacking. They just aren't getting the benefit of any group buffs that could be had it those pugs were grouped together.

As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable. First I would argue that ballgroups die like everyone else when you know what you are doing and how to fight them. but secondly, what makes ballgroups hard to kill is that they typically have more healers than your average pug group (I hear groups have as many as 6, but mine does not run that many, but we still run more than 1 healer). so when you guys are in a position to ulti-dump on the ball group (if you can even coordinate an ultidump amongst a bunch of random players), you don't have enough damage to overwhelm the amount of shields and burst heals (non-hot abilities like combat prayer, hasty prayer, corrupting buds, healthy offering, etc.) to bring them down when all those heals are being cast in one area. And there is nothing exploitive or wrong with that - that is just good healing - just like you would burst heal people in a trial during a burst damage phase.

Very good point. When I'm not running in a ball group I run solo and spam heals on people - mainly look for large clusters and burst them when they get almost bombed - and I'm confident those pugs have no idea how they survived lol.

Killing a ball group just comes down to timing and laying dps at the right moment against them. The problem is the pugs/solos just spam dps on them and it's easy to shake it off. A good /yell in chat push on 3... can do the trick if you play it right.

When I play solo, I mostly play on a bow gank (and a very poor one at that) or on a variety of different block tanks. Mainly because I like to troll groups of people trying to set up seige and be a distraction. I'm also looking to perfect my tank builds and sometimes I need to find a good ballgroup to test my survivability.

LadyGP · March 11

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

@LadyGP

First off, the way we stack heals, mitigation, and synergies isn’t some glitch or exploit. It’s just group coordination, using mechanics that have been in ESO forever. AoE healing and buffs are designed to support teamwork—that’s why they exist. We’re not doing anything the game doesn’t allow; we’re just leaning hard into the systems and practicing a lot to make it work. It’s less about “unintended interactions” and more about understanding how skills can complement each other when you’ve got a tight crew.

People are also forgetting that if they're playing in a large disorganized group and multiple people are running Radiating Regen and Echoing Vigor, they are also getting the benefit of heal stacking. They just aren't getting the benefit of any group buffs that could be had it those pugs were grouped together.

As a ballgroup healer, I can tell you that the heal stacking is not what makes the ballgroup unkillable. First I would argue that ballgroups die like everyone else when you know what you are doing and how to fight them. but secondly, what makes ballgroups hard to kill is that they typically have more healers than your average pug group (I hear groups have as many as 6, but mine does not run that many, but we still run more than 1 healer). so when you guys are in a position to ulti-dump on the ball group (if you can even coordinate an ultidump amongst a bunch of random players), you don't have enough damage to overwhelm the amount of shields and burst heals (non-hot abilities like combat prayer, hasty prayer, corrupting buds, healthy offering, etc.) to bring them down when all those heals are being cast in one area. And there is nothing exploitive or wrong with that - that is just good healing - just like you would burst heal people in a trial during a burst damage phase.

Very good point. When I'm not running in a ball group I run solo and spam heals on people - mainly look for large clusters and burst them when they get almost bombed - and I'm confident those pugs have no idea how they survived lol.

Killing a ball group just comes down to timing and laying dps at the right moment against them. The problem is the pugs/solos just spam dps on them and it's easy to shake it off. A good /yell in chat push on 3... can do the trick if you play it right.

When I play solo, I mostly play on a bow gank (and a very poor one at that) or on a variety of different block tanks. Mainly because I like to troll groups of people trying to set up seige and be a distraction. I'm also looking to perfect my tank builds and sometimes I need to find a good ballgroup to test my survivability.

ARG! I'm very prone to going around to the back of a keep and lighting it while there is a big fight on the FD. There is always a random ganker that 2 shots me when I get the keep like 5% before lighting. I got my eyes on you!!!!!!

WaywardArgonian · March 11

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

That is a personal skill choice though. When you run green vigor (selfish) instead of yellow vigor (group heal) you are making the choice to prioritize your own survival over helping other players. Which is fine if you are on a brawler build built to fight 1v1. But then don't get mad when you can't fight a group of twelve.

You could easily switch the morph of the skill at a shrine for 1k gold and then enjoy the benefits of heal stacking in a pug group - assuming that others are doing the same. And if they're not, then that is really the route of the problem: you have a coordinated group vs a group of individuals who aren't really playing together, and then again, in that situation, you can't complain that you can't beat them.

It's a hypothetical.

The point is that HoT stacking plays a huge role in ballgroup survivability to such a point where if you would simply force everyone in a ballgroup to run a selfish heal over a stackable group HoT, the survivability would drop by orders of magnitude.

The point is not that Echoing Vigor is exclusively available to ballgroups; rather that 12 people keeping 90%+ uptimes on Echoing Vigor over a 2-hour run (+ other HoTs) is a key part of what makes ballgroups hard to kill. If you just add up the numbers of how much healing Echoing Vigor does by itself, it is like having 3 extra healers in your group.

Wuduwasa13 · March 11

Asdara wrote: »

ZOS has repeatedly stated that fair play and game balance are core principles of ESO. However, the continued presence of organized "ball groups" in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds represents a direct contradiction to these principles and may even violate the game's Terms of Service.

Ball groups exploit unintended interactions between skills, stacking healing, mitigation, and synergy effects in a way that eliminates meaningful counterplay. The result is a gameplay experience that discourages new players, frustrates small-scale PvPers, and leads to significant server performance degradation. In this regard, ball grouping is functionally identical to multiboxing, which ZOS has already classified as a bannable exploit.

Multiboxing is prohibited because it grants an unfair advantage by synchronizing multiple characters to act as a single, unbreakable force, overwhelming normal players through sheer coordination. Ball groups achieve the exact same result ,not through software, but through meticulously organized play that abuses AoE healing, mitigation, and synergy stacking to create an unstoppable, lag-inducing cluster of players. Just as multiboxing removes meaningful counterplay and damages server performance, so too does ball grouping.

ZOS has implemented multiple balance patches aimed at reducing the effectiveness of these groups, proving that they recognize the issue. Yet, the core mechanics enabling them persist. Given the repeated efforts to limit this playstyle, it is reasonable to argue that ball groups are, in essence, exploiting the game.

ESO’s Terms of Service prohibit the use of exploits or game mechanics in unintended ways that give an unfair advantage. If ZOS is serious about this policy, then organized ball grouping must be classified as a violation. Either ZOS needs to implement hard restrictions to eliminate the playstyle or take direct enforcement action against players and groups abusing these mechanics.

It’s time to demand a fairer, more competitive PvP experience that does not rely on server-breaking exploits.

ZOS, we need clear enforcement!! when will you act?!

In the time it took you to write that essay, you could have gotten good 😂

Just joking. I completely disagree with your position here. Coordination is not an exploit, it’s teamwork. If you want to counter that then join a rival team or spec into builds designed to survive initial encounters with them and buy you time to retreat somewhat. Lots of options exist if you’re willing to invest the time researching and implementing what works best for your individual play style via trial & error on the field. The fact you have elected instead to try, rather tenuously, to manipulate zos TOS to enforce your preferences & suit your handicap suggests to me you’re likely not interested in actually working for victory, but want someone else to do it for you.

Asdara · March 12

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

In the time it took you to write that essay, you could have gotten good 😂

Just joking. I completely disagree with your position here. Coordination is not an exploit, it’s teamwork. If you want to counter that then join a rival team or spec into builds designed to survive initial encounters with them and buy you time to retreat somewhat. Lots of options exist if you’re willing to invest the time researching and implementing what works best for your individual play style via trial & error on the field. The fact you have elected instead to try, rather tenuously, to manipulate zos TOS to enforce your preferences & suit your handicap suggests to me you’re likely not interested in actually working for victory, but want someone else to do it for you.

Glad you got a laugh out of it. That said, your response assumes that my issue is simply a lack of skill or adaptation, when in reality, it's about the health of the game itself. Coordination is absolutely a fundamental part of PvP—no argument there. The problem arises when coordination exploits unintended stacking mechanics to create an unbreakable, lag-inducing force that overrides counterplay.

Telling players to 'just adapt' only works when viable counters exist. But when mechanics like AoE healing, mitigation stacking, and synergy effects create a scenario where small groups or solo players have virtually zero impact, that’s not just 'good teamwork'—it’s a fundamental balance issue. ZOS has already introduced several nerfs to limit this playstyle, which means they recognize the problem. The question is, why stop halfway?

You’re right that people can try to build against them, but let’s be honest—most counters involve running away, not actually engaging in meaningful fights. That’s not a competitive or engaging PvP environment. If Cyrodiil and BGs are meant to be balanced, then mechanics that create near-invincible deathballs should be examined more critically. This isn’t about asking ZOS to enforce my 'preferences'—it’s about holding them to their own stated principles of fair play and balance.

Asdara · March 12

Kiyakotari wrote: »

So if we see PvP as a simulation of IRL combat, which it essentially is (albeit with magic added in), your argument is that strategy and organized group tactics should not be allowed in that simulated environment because they give the people using them an advantage over people who don't use them? Soldiers should not be permitted to have a commanding officer giving orders on how to move and where to go, and what attacks to employ, and when? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

I see where you're coming from, but the 'real-world combat' analogy actually works against your argument. In real warfare, no army is invincible—every tactic has a counter. The problem in ESO isn’t organization itself; it’s that ball groups exploit stacking mechanics in a way that removes meaningful counterplay, making them functionally unbreakable in most encounters.

A real-world military unit has logistical weaknesses, supply lines to cut, morale to break, and flanks to expose. In ESO, ball groups bypass those natural limitations through unintended interactions—overlapping AoE heals, mitigation stacking, synergy abuse, and sheer lag generation—turning them into an unkillable force. That’s not strategy; that’s an exploit of game mechanics.

I’m not saying organization should be banned—far from it. What I’m arguing is that PvP should have a balance of power, where coordinated groups can be strong but not unstoppable. ZOS has already acknowledged the issue with past nerfs, which proves that this isn’t just 'good teamwork'—it’s an overpowered meta that needs further adjustment. The fact that the only real counter to ball groups is other ball groups is proof of a balance failure, not a skill gap.

Asdara · March 12

strebor2095 wrote: »

@ OP

Fundamentally, more players should beat fewer players.

RaikaNA wrote: »

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?

Oh the irony

Arrow312 · March 12

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

ZOS has repeatedly stated that fair play and game balance are core principles of ESO. However, the continued presence of organized "ball groups" in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds represents a direct contradiction to these principles and may even violate the game's Terms of Service.

Ball groups exploit unintended interactions between skills, stacking healing, mitigation, and synergy effects in a way that eliminates meaningful counterplay. The result is a gameplay experience that discourages new players, frustrates small-scale PvPers, and leads to significant server performance degradation. In this regard, ball grouping is functionally identical to multiboxing, which ZOS has already classified as a bannable exploit.

Multiboxing is prohibited because it grants an unfair advantage by synchronizing multiple characters to act as a single, unbreakable force, overwhelming normal players through sheer coordination. Ball groups achieve the exact same result ,not through software, but through meticulously organized play that abuses AoE healing, mitigation, and synergy stacking to create an unstoppable, lag-inducing cluster of players. Just as multiboxing removes meaningful counterplay and damages server performance, so too does ball grouping.

ZOS has implemented multiple balance patches aimed at reducing the effectiveness of these groups, proving that they recognize the issue. Yet, the core mechanics enabling them persist. Given the repeated efforts to limit this playstyle, it is reasonable to argue that ball groups are, in essence, exploiting the game.

ESO’s Terms of Service prohibit the use of exploits or game mechanics in unintended ways that give an unfair advantage. If ZOS is serious about this policy, then organized ball grouping must be classified as a violation. Either ZOS needs to implement hard restrictions to eliminate the playstyle or take direct enforcement action against players and groups abusing these mechanics.

It’s time to demand a fairer, more competitive PvP experience that does not rely on server-breaking exploits.

ZOS, we need clear enforcement!! when will you act?!

In the time it took you to write that essay, you could have gotten good 😂

Just joking. I completely disagree with your position here. Coordination is not an exploit, it’s teamwork. If you want to counter that then join a rival team or spec into builds designed to survive initial encounters with them and buy you time to retreat somewhat. Lots of options exist if you’re willing to invest the time researching and implementing what works best for your individual play style via trial & error on the field. The fact you have elected instead to try, rather tenuously, to manipulate zos TOS to enforce your preferences & suit your handicap suggests to me you’re likely not interested in actually working for victory, but want someone else to do it for you.

it is not xbox here.....but as you said coordination is not an exploit or something else. for most players it is easier to complain about those group then do something against them.

How many players who complaining here would join a coordinated group to fight a ball? I bet most wont join a coordinated group because they have to change their builds and skills.

We can talk about sets like RoA and some skills like mage guide shield skill from Scribing but not at the playstyle itself.

Four_Fingers · March 12

This is a good example of a baiting thread meant to cause friction among players.

JanTanhide · March 12

Of course not. People are playing the game as it's designed.

Remathilis · March 12

Trial groups are cheating. You should be paired with 12 random players and attempt to compete vSE.

If that sounds dumb, apply that to PvP.

The_Meathead · March 12

I detest what Ball Groups do to Cyrodiil, but no - it's absolutely not a TOS violation.

They are taking what the game gives them and pushing it to the absolute limit, and it's on ZOS to enforce where those limitations are drawn.

I loathe Ball Groups, not their players but the ludicrous reality that mechanics currently allow, but the ridiculous amplification and stacking mechanics are on ZOS to change and are not a violation in any way.

Ball Groups are so powerful atm they effectively play an entirely different game than everyone else. They're like joining a high school football game and driving your F150 out of the backfield. It's crazy atm, pushes players away, induces lag, and is just a blight on Cyrodiil - but it's also not against the ToS, and it's just players maximizing what's available.

I agree that things need to be changed, it's on ZOS to change how things work, and reporting players is not the way to get there.

necro_the_crafter · March 12

they shouldn't... have that much power.

You can chant whole day about organized play and everything, but power gap between coordinated 12 peoople having every stat min-maxed, stacking all possible buffs, skills and item sets,who train their bomb combo to perfection vs 40+ unorganised people is huge.

I belive this gap runs even deeper than gap between casual quester and hardcore pve'er.
Also there is no way to l2p to fight a ballgroup, you simply cant. As in the other MMOs, even if you play solo you still a threat to an orginised group, since you cant cc/slow/pick-off squishier targets in enemy line, which is impossible in ESO's enviroment.

Slows and CC goes out of window, cause they will use snow treaders, which is mean that thay will also always have stamina to break free, since they are not sprinting, and will always have synergy to pop and restore their resourse. There is no burst that can cut through 40k health + ~15k damage shields, there is no pressure that would cut through 10+k hps.

Even if you manage to separate one player out of bg, game has no offensive purges that would dispell any lingering buffs/shields/hots from that player, wich means that you wont be able to burst him quickly, and snow treaders would easily secure separated player retreat back to the group.

And I want even go into detail about RoA, that allowes bg to performe their combo litteraly anywhere in the map, without the need to lure players into chokepoints.

Yeah, I dont see how "You cant go solo/unorganised vs organised players" arguments against the fact that ball groups have too much power.

Based on that premise you can simply make ball-group just have a passive aura of invulnerability for allies and passive aura of instant death for enemies, if there is really no chanse of taking on them with solo/small-cale/unorginised, and in rare ocassion when bg fights bg - opposing auras would even out and they would have a proper fight.

Turtle_Bot · March 12

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

In the time it took you to write that essay, you could have gotten good 😂

Just joking. I completely disagree with your position here. Coordination is not an exploit, it’s teamwork. If you want to counter that then join a rival team or spec into builds designed to survive initial encounters with them and buy you time to retreat somewhat. Lots of options exist if you’re willing to invest the time researching and implementing what works best for your individual play style via trial & error on the field. The fact you have elected instead to try, rather tenuously, to manipulate zos TOS to enforce your preferences & suit your handicap suggests to me you’re likely not interested in actually working for victory, but want someone else to do it for you.

I always love seeing this deflection from ball group players (or those who support them) whenever a thread pops up about ball groups. /s

News flash for ball group players, PuGs and small scales were doing exactly what is being said here to do, adapting, building and speccing via trial and error with sets such as Azureblight.
And yet what did we see when the PuGs and small scales took this advice and did this? Ball group players, instead of taking their own advice, went and made multiple threads to manipulate ZOS into completely deleting Azureblight from PvP. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And ball group players wonder why they currently have such a bad reputation among the general player base.

WaywardArgonian · March 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

News flash for ball group players, PuGs and small scales were doing exactly what is being said here to do, adapting, building and speccing via trial and error with sets such as Azureblight.
And yet what did we see when the PuGs and small scales took this advice and did this? Ball group players, instead of taking their own advice, went and made multiple threads to manipulate ZOS into completely deleting Azureblight from PvP. Hypocrisy at its finest.

And ball group players wonder why they currently have such a bad reputation among the general player base.

It is important to remember that loud people making threads on forums about whatever issue never represents the entire playerbase. I play in ballgroups and thought the Azureblight nerf was a mistake as it removed valid counterplay from the game. This change is likely one of the reasons that we are seeing so many threads about ballgroups as of late.

There are ways to address the dominance of 12-man ballgroups without hurting the viability of organized group play, but saying that people violate TOS for using the tools given to them by the game is not one of them.

BXR_Lonestar · March 12

@WaywardArgonian

The point is that HoT stacking plays a huge role in ballgroup survivability to such a point where if you would simply force everyone in a ballgroup to run a selfish heal over a stackable group HoT, the survivability would drop by orders of magnitude.

The point is not that Echoing Vigor is exclusively available to ballgroups; rather that 12 people keeping 90%+ uptimes on Echoing Vigor over a 2-hour run (+ other HoTs) is a key part of what makes ballgroups hard to kill. If you just add up the numbers of how much healing Echoing Vigor does by itself, it is like having 3 extra healers in your group.

That's kind of the point of ballgroup though. You play as a unit and discard any selfishness for the betterment of the team. Each ballgroup player is weaker when they're alone because of it, but as a unit, we're formidable. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is just a different style of play. We shouldn't be forced to play someone else's way just to suit their needs and desires.

You know, almost like it is a team game...

crappyjazz1964 · March 12

People complained in another thread that people were playing at night while they were sleeping and that wasn't fair. You can't take this stuff seriously.

Arrow312 · March 12

I will start another thread why i cant do all HM trials solo....or why i have to do PvE for Impressa things i just play PvP....

-sarcasm off-