Should ball groups violate TOS?

React · March 7

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

"The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all."

How about instead of adding sets to counter ball groups, we add skills to counter ball groups?

That means more skills like Magicka Detonation, possibly added with the Scribing system. Would that make the situation better?

Skills are one option, but you'd have to consider how they could be adjusted to impact these groups more than benefitting them. For example, what if all instant cast AOE spammable abilities were adjusted to scale based on players hit? Skills like Spin to win, power extraction, soul burst, etc. There isn't much of a point getting into exact numbers here, but just as an example; these skills now have a base tooltip roughly 50% of what they are on live, gaining +10% damage for every player hit. Now when a ballgroup is frequently hitting stacks of 3-6 players, they're dealing roughly standard damage with their AOE spammables (which make up most of their ability-sourced damage). But for players hitting a ballgroup with these abilities, they're dealing roughly 50-70% more damage than live - since these groups tend to stack in a way that would allow them to be all to be hit simultaneously with these 6-8 meter abilities.

Sure, there would be situations where these groups are hitting harder than live - but in turn, they'd be getting hit harder by these skills all the time.

But truthfully, the best solution is to just take steps to address the core parts of the problems. HOT stacking for example, could be massively curbed by simply making it so you can only have 2-3 casts of any same morph HOT on you at a time. Damage shields could be adjusted to never allow more than 2 damage shields active on you at a time. Max health could be reigned in through adjustments such as changing maturation to be a flat bonus rather than a % bonus, deleting things like alyeid wells and emperor HP, adjusting the returns gained via attribute points into HP, etc. Buff sets should also be adjusted, but I wouldn't even know where to start with these other than possibly imposing a rallying cry-esque penalty scaling with group size.

There are ways they can approach nerfing these groups without removing their playstyle entirely, and without impacting ungrouped/uncoordinated players more harmfully. The problem is they don't seem to even be willing to try these things.

Teeba_Shei · March 7

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

It is consensual pvp. You killing someone else as a solo player might cause them distress. That is an agreed upon thing when you engage in pvp.

VoxAdActa · March 7

I get that ball groups are frustrating, and RoA is often absolutely infuriating.

But it's equally frustrating to watch my team chase a person around a tower for 20 minutes without ever saying "Gosh, we can't really catch him this way, maybe we should change tactics?" Just chasing, dying, rezzing, and chasing some more. It takes exactly one person to look at the pattern and wait in one spot for the runner to come back around and gank him.

Ball groups are the same sort of situation. They do one thing, and they do that one thing really well, and they're going to try to maneuver everyone into engaging with them where they can do their one thing. It takes one bomber or one well-equipped ganker to tab target the healer, wait for the opportune moment, and burst them down. Will you survive the aftermath? Probably not, but now the rest of the team is vulnerable to your buddies.

Ball groups thrive in the same situation that tower-runners do: When everyone goes into prey-chase mode and doesn't stop to think about how they can actually accomplish their ultimate goal. Don't engage them where they have the advantage. Don't try to 1vX them. Don't throw warm bodies into their meat grinder over and over expecting to wear them down with sheer numbers and attrition. Stay the heck out of their favorite choke points.

And if all of that is too complicated, or they're dug in too hard, the ultimate counter is that a ball group can only be in one place at a time. Will they take some keeps? Sure. But they're not playing a ball group to take keeps. They're looking for a fight. When all else fails, don't give them a fight. When they can't get a solid fight, they'll break up and dissipate into thin air like a tornado at the end of its path. It'll only take about ten minutes of running around on high alert with nothing to do before the individual members start to lose interest and daydream about the other things they might rather want to do tonight.

Even if nothing else works (and lots of things do work, but ignoring that for now), boredom and impatience will break up a ball group faster than doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

Erickson9610 · March 7

React wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

"The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all."

How about instead of adding sets to counter ball groups, we add skills to counter ball groups?

That means more skills like Magicka Detonation, possibly added with the Scribing system. Would that make the situation better?

Skills are one option, but you'd have to consider how they could be adjusted to impact these groups more than benefitting them. For example, what if all instant cast AOE spammable abilities were adjusted to scale based on players hit? Skills like Spin to win, power extraction, soul burst, etc. There isn't much of a point getting into exact numbers here, but just as an example; these skills now have a base tooltip roughly 50% of what they are on live, gaining +10% damage for every player hit. Now when a ballgroup is frequently hitting stacks of 3-6 players, they're dealing roughly standard damage with their AOE spammables (which make up most of their ability-sourced damage). But for players hitting a ballgroup with these abilities, they're dealing roughly 50-70% more damage than live - since these groups tend to stack in a way that would allow them to be all to be hit simultaneously with these 6-8 meter abilities.

Sure, there would be situations where these groups are hitting harder than live - but in turn, they'd be getting hit harder by these skills all the time.

But truthfully, the best solution is to just take steps to address the core parts of the problems. HOT stacking for example, could be massively curbed by simply making it so you can only have 2-3 casts of any same morph HOT on you at a time. Damage shields could be adjusted to never allow more than 2 damage shields active on you at a time. Max health could be reigned in through adjustments such as changing maturation to be a flat bonus rather than a % bonus, deleting things like alyeid wells and emperor HP, adjusting the returns gained via attribute points into HP, etc. Buff sets should also be adjusted, but I wouldn't even know where to start with these other than possibly imposing a rallying cry-esque penalty scaling with group size.

There are ways they can approach nerfing these groups without removing their playstyle entirely, and without impacting ungrouped/uncoordinated players more harmfully. The problem is they don't seem to even be willing to try these things.

Instead of modifying existing abilities, why not add different, new abilities? Just as it is with different, new item sets being added — the only difference being that new skills replace existing skills on your bar, while new sets replace existing sets on your character.

Obviously some sets have "monsters only" or "players only" modifiers — but what about abilities? We should get some new abilities that only work on players. It'd be like how Negate Magic does something different depending on whether your target is a player or not.

RaikaNA · March 7

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ballgroups are a cancer in Cyrodiil. When multiple ballgroups are in the area, it can cause severe lag on the server as the server cannot handle the amount of pressure and coding. You say that you guys are not out to make anyone miserable, but you guys are. Instead of picking fights against other ball groups.. You guys farm casuals and solo players by baiting them to a trikeep. You claim that you guys are quite killable... yet that is false.

RaikaNA · March 7

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

This is false, Ballgroups will absolutely take the keep given the opportunity. The only way to take a keep like that with only 12 people is a war of attrition. Get inside the keep; farm until either overwhelmed and forced to leave or until opposition numbers drop to the point that the keep can be taken; flag keep from inside (getting the inner door to 60 from inside enables flags to be flipped; an intentional game mechanic), flip flags. Just because you don't like the strategy doesn't make it griefing.

There also are definitely ways to fight back against this; it has literally never been easier to eject a ballgroup from a keep than it is right now.

Sorry but you're wrong. I've seen the ballgroup strategy from a solo pov (I study their movement), and it's not taking the keep. They purposely keep the Fort flagged as bait to attract more people into the fight. This can go on for up to an hour or two until the ballgroup gets bored and leaves.

Stamicka · March 7

I think it's time for ZOS to make clear distinctions between PvE buff sets and PvP buff sets. Rallying cry has the "While Battle Spirit is active" condition, some sets need a "While Battle Spirit is not active" condition added to them. This would make it much easier for ZoS to limit the power of PvP buff sets while keeping 12 man trial groups unaffected.

Right now it's crazy that with: Olorime, Powerful Assault, Gossamer, Rallying Cry, Transmutation, Saxhleel, and an Arcanist a group would have an additional 1000+ spell/weapon damage, 30 % AOE damage mitigation (Major and minor evasion), 2100+ extra crit resistance, and major force for the entire group on demand. You can fit all of that in very easily in just a 5 man group comp. A set like Olorime would be a great backbar option for a solo player, it becomes insanely more powerful the bigger the group gets.

I think PvP buff sets need to be designed either like Spaulder of Ruin or Rallying Cry. Spaulder has a recovery penalty that increases with each person that gets the set's buff. Rallying cry decreases in power (although this should be stricter) the more people that are in the group. Either way there needs to be some type of trade off.

Cross healing needs to be addressed as well. I think the best solution to cross healing is to eliminate auto targeting sticky AOE heals completely and replace them with ground based heals, heals that are centered around a player, and reticle targeted HoTs similar to Mend Wounds. There would need to be a limit for those types of healing as well, but it would be much better balanced and better for server performance than the current system.

LadyGP · March 7

RaikaNA wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ballgroups are a cancer in Cyrodiil. When multiple ballgroups are in the area, it can cause severe lag on the server as the server cannot handle the amount of pressure and coding. You say that you guys are not out to make anyone miserable, but you guys are. Instead of picking fights against other ball groups.. You guys farm casuals and solo players by baiting them to a trikeep. You claim that you guys are quite killable... yet that is false.

This is completely off the mark. We regularly take on other ball groups in GvG fights—honestly, it happens nearly every raid. As for being unkillable? I wish that were true. We get wiped out constantly.

As for your lag gripe, everyone deals with it. When an AD zerg rolls into Ash, it causes a flood of disconnects—tons of DCs crash. It’s not just a ball group issue; it’s about X number of players crammed into one spot, pumping Y amount of data to the server. I’d say the constant ping-pong of player locations between the server and clients generates as much lag, if not more, than us tossing out HoTs.

LadyGP · March 7

Stamicka wrote: »

I think it's time for ZOS to make clear distinctions between PvE buff sets and PvP buff sets. Rallying cry has the "While Battle Spirit is active" condition, some sets need a "While Battle Spirit is not active" condition added to them. This would make it much easier for ZoS to limit the power of PvP buff sets while keeping 12 man trial groups unaffected.

Right now it's crazy that with: Olorime, Powerful Assault, Gossamer, Rallying Cry, Transmutation, Saxhleel, and an Arcanist a group would have an additional 1000+ spell/weapon damage, 30 % AOE damage mitigation (Major and minor evasion), 2100+ extra crit resistance, and major force for the entire group on demand. You can fit all of that in very easily in just a 5 man group comp. A set like Olorime would be a great backbar option for a solo player, it becomes insanely more powerful the bigger the group gets.

I think PvP buff sets need to be designed either like Spaulder of Ruin or Rallying Cry. Spaulder has a recovery penalty that increases with each person that gets the set's buff. Rallying cry decreases in power (although this should be stricter) the more people that are in the group. Either way there needs to be some type of trade off.

Cross healing needs to be addressed as well. I think the best solution to cross healing is to eliminate auto targeting sticky AOE heals completely and replace them with ground based heals, heals that are centered around a player, and reticle targeted HoTs similar to Mend Wounds. There would need to be a limit for those types of healing as well, but it would be much better balanced and better for server performance than the current system.

I might be misremembering, but I could’ve sworn there was a stream or some discussion where Rich flat-out said they’d never go for this.

With their new direction and that calculation test on the horizon, I really hope they rethink it. This could seriously simplify game balancing for them (once they get past the initial hump) and make it more fun for both PvE and PvP players. Right now, when something’s messing up PvP, they tweak it and it usually wrecks it for PvE. If they brought in a battle spirit system for sets, it’d open the door wide for them to play around with and fine-tune sets specifically for PvP.

acastanza_ESO · March 7

RaikaNA wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

This is false, Ballgroups will absolutely take the keep given the opportunity. The only way to take a keep like that with only 12 people is a war of attrition. Get inside the keep; farm until either overwhelmed and forced to leave or until opposition numbers drop to the point that the keep can be taken; flag keep from inside (getting the inner door to 60 from inside enables flags to be flipped; an intentional game mechanic), flip flags. Just because you don't like the strategy doesn't make it griefing.

There also are definitely ways to fight back against this; it has literally never been easier to eject a ballgroup from a keep than it is right now.

Sorry but you're wrong. I've seen the ballgroup strategy from a solo pov (I study their movement), and it's not taking the keep. They purposely keep the Fort flagged as bait to attract more people into the fight. This can go on for up to an hour or two until the ballgroup gets bored and leaves.

They purposely keep the Fort flagged as bait to attract more people into the fight because otherwise the flags become unflippable.
This can go on for up to an hour or two until the ballgroup gets bored and leaves. realizes there is no chance of flipping the keep.

Your observations aren't any more valid than mine are. Less even because you, not having run with a ballgroup, have less insight into the thoughts of those players than I do, having run with one. Will a ballgroup retreat upstairs and farm as long as they can if there is no chance of flipping the keep? Sure. But to propurt to have some magical insight into other people's thoughts and using that to claim they're violating TOS is absurd, and frankly, I might even go so far as to say a TOS violation itself.

Stamicka · March 7

LadyGP wrote: »

This is completely off the mark. We regularly take on other ball groups in GvG fights—honestly, it happens nearly every raid. As for being unkillable? I wish that were true. We get wiped out constantly.

As for your lag gripe, everyone deals with it. When an AD zerg rolls into Ash, it causes a flood of disconnects—tons of DCs crash. It’s not just a ball group issue; it’s about X number of players crammed into one spot, pumping Y amount of data to the server. I’d say the constant ping-pong of player locations between the server and clients generates as much lag, if not more, than us tossing out HoTs.

Not every ballgroup on every server plays like yours. I see a lot of ballgroups that are afraid to fight each other because they don't want to lose and they may even all switch to the same alliance to avoid a potential conflict.

Of course it is true that members of ballgroups are killable, but certainly not as easily as they should be for the caliber of players that tend to play in these groups in 2025. It takes a lot to kill somebody with 40k health, shields, and a ridiculous amount of heals per second on them. Even if you overextend or get separated from the group, you might have 10+ different HoTs on you with a considerable amount of duration left. Then of course, most negative effects on you will be purged off quickly. You can very easily afford not to break free or block and still survive in a ballgroup, that's often not true for others.

I agree that everybody has to deal with lag and it's ultimately on ZOS to make sure that coordinated play does not stress the server too much. As of now though, ballgroups definitely stress the server more than anything else. Constant purges, auto targeting radiating regens, HoT tick calculations, and buff stacking undoubtedly require more calculations than groups that aren't utilizing those things.

My biggest problem with ballgroups is that it's way too effective for the amount of effort it requires and the caliber of players that make up these groups. A ballgroup has to do very little now because sets and cross heals take care of everything that once required effort. Many ballgroups never have to worry about roots or immobilizations which in the past would have required a roll, snare removal ability or purge due to snow treaders. Ballgroups no longer have to be as strategic about where they choose to use ultimate, because Rush of Agony or Dark Convergence will nicely stack everyone in the radius so that they all blow each other up. Healers don't have to be as good as they used to have to be in ballgroups because each group member can press 2 HoTs every 10 seconds.

So as long as you follow crown and press your heal every 10 seconds, you can probably be fine in a ballgroup. It's very low skill gameplay and many of these groups would be on the same level as a PuG formed from zone chat if cross healing wasn't a thing.

Amottica · March 7

strebor2095 wrote: »

@ OP

Fundamentally, more players should beat fewer players.

and a more organized group with actual leadership and on-comms will have an advantage over a random group (in an actual group or just following along) that is just running around pushing buttons and not communicating live during a fight.

I say that from experience running with a random group just doing whatever and following the leader, if not squirreling, and also running with my guild, where we tend to have anywhere from 4 to 6 players and have taken down a full group because we are organized, have leadership, do what they ask, and are on comms so we can adapt and react quickly.

It really makes a difference and is not even close to being an exploit. People who want a more balanced fight should consider BGs, but then again, better skilled players and ones with a leader and comms will have an upper hand. Yes, you can queue solo and end up in the same match, though it is a dice roll.

katanagirl1 · March 8

React wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

"The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all."

How about instead of adding sets to counter ball groups, we add skills to counter ball groups?

That means more skills like Magicka Detonation, possibly added with the Scribing system. Would that make the situation better?

Skills are one option, but you'd have to consider how they could be adjusted to impact these groups more than benefitting them. For example, what if all instant cast AOE spammable abilities were adjusted to scale based on players hit? Skills like Spin to win, power extraction, soul burst, etc. There isn't much of a point getting into exact numbers here, but just as an example; these skills now have a base tooltip roughly 50% of what they are on live, gaining +10% damage for every player hit. Now when a ballgroup is frequently hitting stacks of 3-6 players, they're dealing roughly standard damage with their AOE spammables (which make up most of their ability-sourced damage). But for players hitting a ballgroup with these abilities, they're dealing roughly 50-70% more damage than live - since these groups tend to stack in a way that would allow them to be all to be hit simultaneously with these 6-8 meter abilities.

Sure, there would be situations where these groups are hitting harder than live - but in turn, they'd be getting hit harder by these skills all the time.

But truthfully, the best solution is to just take steps to address the core parts of the problems. HOT stacking for example, could be massively curbed by simply making it so you can only have 2-3 casts of any same morph HOT on you at a time. Damage shields could be adjusted to never allow more than 2 damage shields active on you at a time. Max health could be reigned in through adjustments such as changing maturation to be a flat bonus rather than a % bonus, deleting things like alyeid wells and emperor HP, adjusting the returns gained via attribute points into HP, etc. Buff sets should also be adjusted, but I wouldn't even know where to start with these other than possibly imposing a rallying cry-esque penalty scaling with group size.

There are ways they can approach nerfing these groups without removing their playstyle entirely, and without impacting ungrouped/uncoordinated players more harmfully. The problem is they don't seem to even be willing to try these things.

Implementing these ideas would not only make ball groups less invincible and more vulnerable, and enable them to be dealt with, but it will undoubtably ease the burden on the servers by reducing the amount of calculations that need to be done for every player every second.

It sounds like a no-brainer place to start.

LadyGP · March 8

React wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

"The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all."

How about instead of adding sets to counter ball groups, we add skills to counter ball groups?

That means more skills like Magicka Detonation, possibly added with the Scribing system. Would that make the situation better?

Skills are one option, but you'd have to consider how they could be adjusted to impact these groups more than benefitting them. For example, what if all instant cast AOE spammable abilities were adjusted to scale based on players hit? Skills like Spin to win, power extraction, soul burst, etc. There isn't much of a point getting into exact numbers here, but just as an example; these skills now have a base tooltip roughly 50% of what they are on live, gaining +10% damage for every player hit. Now when a ballgroup is frequently hitting stacks of 3-6 players, they're dealing roughly standard damage with their AOE spammables (which make up most of their ability-sourced damage). But for players hitting a ballgroup with these abilities, they're dealing roughly 50-70% more damage than live - since these groups tend to stack in a way that would allow them to be all to be hit simultaneously with these 6-8 meter abilities.

Sure, there would be situations where these groups are hitting harder than live - but in turn, they'd be getting hit harder by these skills all the time.

But truthfully, the best solution is to just take steps to address the core parts of the problems. HOT stacking for example, could be massively curbed by simply making it so you can only have 2-3 casts of any same morph HOT on you at a time. Damage shields could be adjusted to never allow more than 2 damage shields active on you at a time. Max health could be reigned in through adjustments such as changing maturation to be a flat bonus rather than a % bonus, deleting things like alyeid wells and emperor HP, adjusting the returns gained via attribute points into HP, etc. Buff sets should also be adjusted, but I wouldn't even know where to start with these other than possibly imposing a rallying cry-esque penalty scaling with group size.

There are ways they can approach nerfing these groups without removing their playstyle entirely, and without impacting ungrouped/uncoordinated players more harmfully. The problem is they don't seem to even be willing to try these things.

I've always really respected React. Great PvP'er and is a straight shooter. This is the way if you really wanted to make some change.

Vulkunne · March 8

LadyGP wrote: »

React wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

"The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all."

How about instead of adding sets to counter ball groups, we add skills to counter ball groups?

That means more skills like Magicka Detonation, possibly added with the Scribing system. Would that make the situation better?

Skills are one option, but you'd have to consider how they could be adjusted to impact these groups more than benefitting them. For example, what if all instant cast AOE spammable abilities were adjusted to scale based on players hit? Skills like Spin to win, power extraction, soul burst, etc. There isn't much of a point getting into exact numbers here, but just as an example; these skills now have a base tooltip roughly 50% of what they are on live, gaining +10% damage for every player hit. Now when a ballgroup is frequently hitting stacks of 3-6 players, they're dealing roughly standard damage with their AOE spammables (which make up most of their ability-sourced damage). But for players hitting a ballgroup with these abilities, they're dealing roughly 50-70% more damage than live - since these groups tend to stack in a way that would allow them to be all to be hit simultaneously with these 6-8 meter abilities.

Sure, there would be situations where these groups are hitting harder than live - but in turn, they'd be getting hit harder by these skills all the time.

But truthfully, the best solution is to just take steps to address the core parts of the problems. HOT stacking for example, could be massively curbed by simply making it so you can only have 2-3 casts of any same morph HOT on you at a time. Damage shields could be adjusted to never allow more than 2 damage shields active on you at a time. Max health could be reigned in through adjustments such as changing maturation to be a flat bonus rather than a % bonus, deleting things like alyeid wells and emperor HP, adjusting the returns gained via attribute points into HP, etc. Buff sets should also be adjusted, but I wouldn't even know where to start with these other than possibly imposing a rallying cry-esque penalty scaling with group size.

There are ways they can approach nerfing these groups without removing their playstyle entirely, and without impacting ungrouped/uncoordinated players more harmfully. The problem is they don't seem to even be willing to try these things.

I've always really respected React. Great PvP'er and is a straight shooter. This is the way if you really wanted to make some change.

Some of React's ideas aren't bad and no they don't seem to want to address the problem.

However, I might argue that it's an issue that's technical in nature and part cultural in nature. In other words, if you read thru these threads, it should become clear over time you have two classes of people:

- There's the ones who consider themselves 'better' than everyone else. They are not bad players, no they only treat people badly and will swiftly judge who is a 'good' and who is a 'bad'. Then there is the ugly ones, the 'Vulkunnes' who solo everything. As a Vulkunne, let me tell you, they don't have compassion for anyone or treat us very well. Rarely if ever do I get a group invite for example, especially to the more exclusive folks who try and decide things for everyone else. This is what I meant in my example regarding Half Life 2: Source game. If they could these folks would start removing or blocking people from accessing 'their server', just like what happened in that game.
- Technical fixes won't fix class issues. In other words, in my opinion, the greater work of our time is bridging the divides between players, -not honoring- exclusive folks for standing around and acting all smug and elitist when people need help. It would be great to take some time, don't rush it, but think about a way to keep people engaged and make it so that if I'm running a scroll, its in everyone's interest to help, not stand around and wait for me to get stomped on.

I realize that having these feelings won't warrant me any honors or dignities but quite frankly I'm at this point now so very much ashamed of how Cyrodiil PvP has ended up after all these years.

randconfig · March 8

Lol it's an emergent property of the system/game rules. It should be addressed or nerfed via those game rules, not for punishing players for playing together/teamwork.

SerafinaWaterstar · March 8

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Whether or not they violate the TOS they are destroying PVP in Cyro. I used to pvp all the time. Now I rarely go in. There is no real competition when they are there.

This.

At the moment, DC on PSEU appear to consist of ball groups. Yes, they can be defeated by co-ordination, but they are so flipping tedious.

There is the fact that they must annoy non-ball group players as they almost never play the campaign but just farm players, even when they take scrolls.

But the main annoyance is the game goes pants when near a ball group - desynchs, crashes, stupid amounts of lag - its bad enough they use RoA to pull you from stupid distances but then the lag stops you from defending against it. This is a huge issue - the pressure on the server from the calculations for these groups.

I appreciate playing together, but not when it makes all other players pvp experience utter frustrating rubbish.

baguette_poolish · March 8

OP you might be onto something here. If you are a ball group player there should be some sort of "Time Allowance" say they get 30 minutes of gameplay in Cyro per week just for their zerging needs.

forum_gpt · March 8

React wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

An even more egregious example might be snake in the stars. This set was introduced after numerous threads complaining about the stacking of same morph HOTs, something responsible for a huge amount of the over-the-top survivability of these groups. In theory, this is the perfect set to counter this behavior - but for some reason the set has a global cooldown instead of a per target cooldown, resulting in it being completely worthless against these groups.

I'm sorry, but this is the most ignorant thing I've heard people say about ballgroups. Snake in the Stars will 100% kill a player in a group with lots of HoTs on them. Of course, you need more than just one set—you need to actually do damage. Complaining that it has a global cooldown instead of a per-target cooldown completely ignores the fact that, when properly utilized, it still punishes excessive HoT stacking. The issue isn’t the set—it’s people expecting one passive effect to do all the work for them instead of combining it with pressure.

Applying the 11,170/s for 4s dot (maximum potential of the set) to a single member of a ballgroup won't have an impact in any scenario. We see similar values being applied to the whole group at once through things like oils and coldfires, and in most cases it's completely shrugged off.

The set was created after dozens of posts over the course of months complaining about the HOT stacking in practice by these groups - it was obviously intended as a band-aid "solution" to those complaints.

You ignored the last part of my post where I stated "The whole concept of adding sets to counter fundamentally flawed balancing isn't great to begin with. In most cases the sets will benefit the groups more than those trying to counter them, and they don't address the core balance issues at all." I don't think sets should be the counter to terrible balance like HOT stacking, but zenimax appears to believe that is the best way forward. If they're going to introduce tools for this purpose, they should actually be effective in the role they're intended for. The current iteration of SITS is completely worthless for it's intended purpose. If it was changed like I'm suggesting to have a per target cooldown, it would actually be a viable tool to offset the ridiculous healing acquired by HOT stacking, and could be impactful when combined with things like siege, timed ults/negates,etc. It wouldn't be a "passive effect doing all the work for you", like you're suggesting. It would simply negate a significant portion of the HOT stacking to allow these groups to be more prone to the aforementioned tools. It would still be a 4s duration with a 12s coodown, meaning you would need to time it carefully to actually take advantage of it.

Let's be honest. It's completely disingenuous to suggest that SITS with a per target CD would be just as effective against ungrouped/disorganized pugs as it would be against ballgroups. No disorganized group is going to have 10 instances of healing ticking on them every single second, whereas nearly every single properly built ballgroup absolutely will.

I'm sorry, but this take completely misunderstands the impact of Snake in the Stars. The claim that applying 11,170/s for 4s to a single ballgroup member "won't have an impact" is just false. If that were true, ballgroups wouldn’t be running defensive sets, mitigation, and stacking HoTs in the first place—because by that logic, incoming pressure would never matter.

Yes, siege and coldfire apply pressure, but they're avoidable and not consistently applied in the same way as a DoT like SITS, which directly punishes the core of what makes these groups function—excessive, overlapping HoTs. The fact that SITS was created in response to complaints about this playstyle proves its intended purpose, but saying "it's completely worthless" ignores that it can and does kill people when used properly. The issue isn’t the set—it’s people expecting a single effect to dismantle a fully optimized ballgroup without additional pressure.

kargen27 · March 8

Belegnole wrote: »

The only people that defend ball groups, run in ball groups. Ball groups exploit stacking in a way that I do not believe ZOS intended. Abusing this gives the ball groups an advantage over a superior numbered compeating group. However ZOS is not in the habit of admitting they have made a mistake, or of doing anything about it. So, the majority of PvP players will eventually leave the game and only the ball groups will remain.

This has taken things full circle. A few years back players were complaining that large groups were running amok in Cyrodiil with no way to compete against superior numbers.

Stamicka · March 8

kargen27 wrote: »

This has taken things full circle. A few years back players were complaining that large groups were running amok in Cyrodiil with no way to compete against superior numbers.

Ballgroups have existed for a very long time and actually had a purpose when populations caps were above like 100 per alliance or whatever it is. I don’t remember a time when organized groups couldn’t win against superior numbers. I don’t remember this being a widespread complaint.

The thing is, ballgroups in the past were much more balanced and less complained about due to the fact that the game was better designed and hybridization didn’t exist.

For one, radiating regen simply didn’t exist, it used to be a skill called mutagen and it only had very niche uses. Resolving vigor used to be a stackable sticky AOE heal, but ballgroups often couldn’t stack vigor for multiple reasons:

1. Vicious death on jewelry could only be arcane
2. Proxy Det only scaled with mag stats
3. Destro Ult (or Bats before that) were the best ults for ballgrouping

So the main ballgroup tools usually forced most group members to be magicka builds in light armor. Because of that, they couldn’t effectively utilize vigor stacking since they were mag builds and then as I said, radiating regen didn’t exist. The role of the healer was much more important since heal stacking wasn’t easily possible. As a whole, ballgroups could be killed much more easily and had way less room for mistakes.

Additionally, there was way more counterplay against a group that didn’t have AOE pulls. For one, you could just run away from them when they all popped their destro ults and their proxy dets were about to go off.

Set coordination wasn’t as big in the past either. There was spell power cure, but it only gave half of the damage it does now, there was Powerful Assault, but it only impacted 5 people, and there was Transmutation. There might be something else I’m forgetting, but it wasn’t nearly as bad as it is today.

A build like Rush of Agony/VD wouldn’t be viable in the past. Rush of Agony is medium and would have robust jewelry, VD is light and would only have arcane jewelry. Your stats would be awful and you would have no damage. Likewise, you couldn’t really use a skill like whirling blades with VD either for similar reasons.

The game also had more percent modifiers and more reasons to build into max stats, so health pools were lower by like 10k+ in these groups compared to today.

All of this to say that there’s nothing wrong with coordinated play and it’s always been possible to wipe groups much larger than your own. However, it wasn’t nearly as problematic and complained about as it is today because the game’s design kept group power in check.

The current state of ballgroups is really a product of the “play as you want” philosophy that ZoS has taken to the extreme. You can combine any 2 sets, invest in health as much as you want, and use any weapon combination you want. It’s just not healthy and the game was better when it forced players to compromise.

If they want to fix this game they need to take a hard look at the balance of ESO 8 years ago cause there’s many lessons to learn from it that would fix these issues today that didn’t exist in the past.

huskandhunger · March 9

💯

Erissime · March 9

Soarora wrote: »

Cyrodiil is an active warzone, why wouldn’t there be ball groups? The alliances aren’t gonna send people out on their own, they’re gonna send coordinated squads. Is it fun to fight against a ball group? No. But if any one kind of group should be in Cyrodiil… it’s ball groups.

Fair point that. But if so, also logic says that well coordinated groups are meant to support their respective alliances, not hinder it more! So while organization is a fine thing to point on, sadly this is not these group's problem. Their behaviour is. Today I witnessed an entire alliance allienated by 2 ballgroups , giving the hope of a taken scroll, only to loose it after, while people tried to actually support them, and play along side them - but did they pay any attention to, or helped indeed the alliance? No. They did their square of kills, lost the scroll after a loooong time keeping it in one place, gave false hopes to a whole alliance, and wasted what? 80 ppl's time for more than 2 hours? What is good about that? Never you mind they never took a single objective. Endless AP farm. And yes these were "friendly" groups - own alliance ones. Not even enemy! lol

Erissime · March 9

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that - fits exactly that. Baiting being the nr 1 tactic of these groups. Balls do NOT seek fair fights ( if they were they wouldn't be ballgroups to begin with lol) - they only seek to kill and farm ap. The problem with them being that while you THINK you are not disrupting anyone's game, mayhap think again when the cap of an alliance is of about 100 ppl, and at least 20 (or more - sometimes WAY more like half of those!) - are ballgroups - and these groups hinder both the opposite alliances as well as their own! How is that not disruptive of the game? Especially when they absolutely do NOT like being countered, and the moment they as much as sense one or few players capable of disrupting THEM they stoop to 12 vs1 with no problem! Never mind examples of behaviour I have shared above, what with scrolls baiting, keeps baiting, and the like. Are these groups a problem for the more seasoned players? No. As it was already said, there are ways to counter these groups , and plenty of players who know how, for ballgroups do fall just like anyone else indeed. Is this fair for everybody else's game? Well I suppose the rage already displayed around speaks on its own. And believe you me, I am not one to be enraged by ball-groups. Just dissapointed of the levels of round-about ways to beat a system people keep finding, only and only to get a win, even if just a game.

Stridig · March 9

Erissime wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here and echo a lot of what is being said here. Groups coordinating in PvP is not breaking any TOS. We are not going to punish players for working together in coordinated play. We fully recognize that players do have valid issues with coordinated groups pushes and some of that comes down to giving you more tools to disrupt a coordinated team. We'll have a bit more on this in the next PvP Q&A, but wanted to at least note for the general group here that coordinated play does not violate Terms of Service.

If ballgroups does not violate the terms of service, please explain what the COS says about griefing... what does griefing mean from ZOS perspective? What is the definition of it?

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

According to the C.O.S... Ballgroups are guilty of griefing... they purpose sit at a well-known trikeep like Castle Faregyl for hours to farm and boost AP from casual players/pugs by exploiting a broken combat system without the intention of taking the keep.. They are unkillable because they stack up heals and shields (thanks to the arcanist class), and they know it too. They prance around with 38K to 40k HP and still manage to sustain massive damage. There are currently no tools that are available to us to counterattack ballgroups... even if one becomes available.. ballgroups will find a way to incorporate it into their group.

Hey there! I totally get where you’re coming from—it can feel frustrating going up against a coordinated ball group, especially when it seems like they’re just farming AP and not pushing objectives. I run with a ball group myself, and I’d like to offer a different perspective without dismissing how you feel.

First off, we’re not unkillable—trust me, we get wiped plenty! It might not always look like it from the outside, but we’re coordinating hard to stay alive, and when we overextend or get outplayed, we go down just like anyone else. The heals and shields you’re seeing are part of the game’s mechanics, and yeah, classes like Arcanist can amplify that, but it’s not some invincible exploit. We’re just using what’s available to us, same as solo players or small groups use their own builds and strategies.

As for griefing, I checked the Code of Conduct you linked (Section 2.3), and it defines it as stuff like harassment, verbal attacks, stalking, or intentionally disrupting someone’s experience with unwanted behavior. Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that—it’s just PvP in a PvP zone, even if it’s not everyone’s preferred style. The COS is more about protecting players from personal attacks or abusive behavior, not about specific playstyles like running in a group or holding a spot for fights. ZOS seems to leave room for different ways to play as long as it’s not targeting someone to ruin their day on a personal level.

We’re not out to make anyone miserable—honestly, we’re just looking for good fights and some AP along the way. If it feels one-sided sometimes, I get it, and I’d love to see more tools for countering groups too—it’d make things more dynamic for everyone. Maybe drop some suggestions in the feedback section? We’re all stuck with the same combat system, and I’m sure ZOS is watching how it plays out.

Ball groups sitting at a tri-keep to fight and farm AP doesn’t really fit that - fits exactly that. Baiting being the nr 1 tactic of these groups. Balls do NOT seek fair fights ( if they were they wouldn't be ballgroups to begin with lol) - they only seek to kill and farm ap. The problem with them being that while you THINK you are not disrupting anyone's game, mayhap think again when the cap of an alliance is of about 100 ppl, and at least 20 (or more - sometimes WAY more like half of those!) - are ballgroups - and these groups hinder both the opposite alliances as well as their own! How is that not disruptive of the game? Especially when they absolutely do NOT like being countered, and the moment they as much as sense one or few players capable of disrupting THEM they stoop to 12 vs1 with no problem! Never mind examples of behaviour I have shared above, what with scrolls baiting, keeps baiting, and the like. Are these groups a problem for the more seasoned players? No. As it was already said, there are ways to counter these groups , and plenty of players who know how, for ballgroups do fall just like anyone else indeed. Is this fair for everybody else's game? Well I suppose the rage already displayed around speaks on its own. And believe you me, I am not one to be enraged by ball-groups. Just dissapointed of the levels of round-about ways to beat a system people keep finding, only and only to get a win, even if just a game.

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?

Erissime · March 9

Udrath wrote: »

The problem is the sets they are stacking are unbalanced for PvP group play.

So perhaps with the new upcoming changes ZOS will finally make a difference between pvp and pve, and since scribing is a thing, perhaps we will get indeed special skills usable in Cyrodiil only, and only be allowed pvp sets in pvp, and pve sets in pve. Just one thought, very shallow, I know, but I am not one to dive into math and details. I'm just here to play a game and have fun, as I assume the majority of players are. These two sides of the game (pve/pvp) need to be clearly differentiated, or else we will keep living in the chaos we now do.

Stamicka · March 9

Stridig wrote: »

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?

Because they often avoid fights against groups that have the same tools as them.

So I don’t know what’s going on in PC NA Cyrodiil because the server performance is so much worse that I don’t bother PvPing on PC.

I did play a lot during this most recent double AP in Blackreach on Xbox NA and I literally watched all the ballgroups switch to the same alliance.

Basically, Yellow did not have a ballgroup, Red had one ballgroup usually with emperor, Blue had 2 ballgroups. The Red and Blue ballgroups must have been afraid of each other or something so they would both just push Yellow until they were gated. By the end of the campaign, the one red ballgroup just switched to blue. As a result there were 3 blue ballgroups in the end that essentially had free reign over the map.

So even during times when Yellow had more population than Blue, I’m pretty sure Yellow was at the real disadvantage simply because they didn’t have a ballgroup.

Honestly, numbers don’t mean much against a coordinated group of 12 at this point. They can pull 15+ people in at a time and blow them all up in just one or two ultimates. Then they have the healing to shrug off basically anything.

The only thing they can’t handle is a better or more comped out group of 12 (which is why they avoid each other).

Erissime · March 9

HatchetHaro wrote: »

first of all, of course it doesn't violate ToS lmao.

i think one of the issues is that ball group setups just aren't accessible.

due to the nature of cyrodiil pvp, most players simply just pug it or join a scheduled group in some random Discord servers. most people just don't see ball groups that often, especially when they're focused on zergs and what's immediately lit on the map. most pvp videos and build guides are usually 1vX builds. that's what i mean about ball group setups being inaccessible: you have to be able to find one to join one, get their requested setups, theorycraft group compositions and sets with them, etc, and that's just not something most people want to do.

there's also a massive amount of power disparity between optimized ball group sets and a rag-tag zerg of min-maxed 1vXers; the difference is night-and-day.

i know that ZOS specifically said that the Vengeance test is solely for performance and nothing else, but in my eyes, standardizing sets and loadouts is probably the best thing they can do to balance PvP properly.

I beg to disagree, seeing that most people encounter ballgroups everyday either they like it or not. What is true of the lack of knowledge about it, is the fact that most people do not even KNOW what it is they are facing! And they keep wondering until some explain or they just quit, assuming they are incapable to pvp. The phenomena you speak of is years old. Nowadays sadly these groups are a daily reality, furthermore preventing new players into joining due to what I just said - for to be fair they also have the power to chase away new players, simply willing to try this whole... pvp thing so many speak of, heck we even have events about! And what do they find? Strange groups of "immortal" people, killing them without as much as a chance to blink in opponence, let alone hope to stand or fight or learn.

And balls chase the same lit things on the map as everybody else - for there will be the zerg to farm ... The nr of times I heard people complaining about balls "ruining a perfect zerg vs zerg action". Downright game-disruptive they become! Sadly not via words or things written in the TOS, that is why it is so hard to pin-point their trouble. But like I said - the player behaviour the majority of them display is downright despicable. And no, they do not seek other balls to match - only zergs! The rarest thing I ever saw was ball vs ball action. Now THAT .. is a rare sight indeed!

I do agree with the last line though - change is direly needed.

Stridig · March 10

Stamicka wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm confused at the statement of ball groups not seeking fair fights. They routinely fight three or four times their numbers. Sometimes more. What is unfair about that?

Because they often avoid fights against groups that have the same tools as them.

They really only avoid each other during large keep and outpost fights so pugs don't get them blown up.

WaywardArgonian · March 10

huskandhunger wrote: »

💯

Out of those sets, Gossamer and Olorime are only used in small groups. Bigger groups run their own source of Major Evasion and Spell Power Cure over Olorime. Just pointing it out because neither of those sets are causing problems and especially Gossamer is finally in a place where it's useful again (especially in unorganized groups/zergs/battlegrounds) after many years of being trash.