SilverBride wrote: »

If console players enjoy proximity chat then that is all fine...

Dunno where you get the idea that console players enjoy the area chat. Cuz for most of us, we really don't. At least, not very many of us. I'm speaking anecdotaly of course, but on PSNA I don't know anybody that actually honestly likes it. I've encountered the rare player that may use it, but it's more that they just put up with it when they decide to help a struggling new player and would much prefer a better option. It's such an annoying nuissance that it outweighs any positive usefulness (IMO).

I mean, I'd never recommend it myself. But hey, if another player wants the option, it's of no importance to me. Despite what my mis-click vote says.

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I've read all the posts in this thread and I still don't understand where this is coming from.

If console players enjoy proximity chat then that is all fine... for them. What I don't understand is why there is such a push for PC players to want it too.

We have gotten along very well for going on 11 years now without it. We are happy with Discord. Why is this so important?

Once again, I’m not sure where you’re getting this idea of a “push.” Just because people explain why it wouldn’t be bad doesn’t mean they’re attempting to foist something on you.

It feels like it is being pushed to me. If we say why we don't want it, our reasons are countered. We are told that it will be "optional" so why would we argue with that? All we are doing is saying we don't want it, giving our reasons why, but our feedback is not being accepted.

sans-culottes wrote: »

If you’re speculating about something that someone has experienced and you haven’t, then it’s not pushing their perspective on anyone. It is, however, providing evidence—and that’s the opposite of purely speculating.

Evidence of what? That some console players enjoy voice proximity chat?

And why counter sometone's reasons for why they don't want something anyway? We are just explaining why we hold the view that we do. But I feel like we are being pressured to change our minds.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I sincerely doubt high-end trifecta/HM pushers or competitive PvPers on PC are "uncomfortable" about joining Discord. "Hearing callouts" isn't required for undaunted PUGs.

There have been tons of threads that expressed exactly that.

I have seen many threads over the years from raiders who don't want to join discords or guilds but still want to be able to do trials. They can do exactly that on console through group finder/pugs in Craglorn.

An older woman who expressed anxiety because she'd wants to mostly play solo but people want her to join discord. She wants to be able to hear what they say but not join voice chat as she was worried about it exposing her gender identity and age. Not a problem on console. Friend can voice chat and you can be in text chat. Just type "no mic but I can hear you" which is very common.

I've seen people not to want to use discord because it's a third party service or they're worried about viruses.

I've seen people with disabilities that make typing hard on a controller use it to communicate. Etc.

The person spoke to high-end players and specifically stated that those who pug raids in Craglorn are not pushing trifecta/HM pushers. Those who pug raids in Craglorn are typically not the high-end raiders Vox speaks to.

Amottica wrote: »

The person spoke to high-end players and specifically stated that those who pug raids in Craglorn are not pushing trifecta/HM pushers. Those who pug raids in Craglorn are typically not the high-end raiders Vox speaks to.

My last VCR+3 attempt was a PUG in group finder using voice chat. Harder stuff is much less common but feasible (except trifectas) in non-rostered play on here. I can't say I have seen a trifecta. But I've seen Hard Modes and Regular Vet Trial Clears, including newer trials.

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

If you’re speculating about something that someone has experienced and you haven’t, then it’s not pushing their perspective on anyone. It is, however, providing evidence—and that’s the opposite of purely speculating.

Evidence of what? That some console players enjoy voice proximity chat?

And why counter sometone's reasons for why they don't want something anyway? We are just explaining why we hold the view that we do. But I feel like we are being pressured to change our minds.

We absolutely are being pressured to change our minds. Our feedback and opinions are being ignored and invalidated, often with specious reasoning. It's not a discussion on what we might like, it's focused advocacy.

Apparently, one person who is uncomfortable with having to join Discord to go on high-end raids is worth more than all of the other people who are uncomfortable with proximity voice chat being added for a wide variety of reasons. None of our reasons count, only the hypothetical people who might exist and might want this count.

They’re not hypothetical. If you’re feeling like evidence from real, existing voice chat on the console version of the same game is somehow pressuring you to change your mind, then I’d suggest that maybe it’s because you may have doubts about your opinion in the face of very reasoned evidence. It’s too bad you maligned empirical evidence as specious, but your reasons are your own.

Ironically, what IS hypotheticals are the fears and misconceptions that spartaxoxo and I have attempted to assuage, given that we both have experienced something you’ve both stated you’ve not experienced. If you find that somehow to be pressuring you, then I’d respectfully disagree.

I’m not sure where you’re getting “pressure” from “here are ways this was addressed in the same game on a separate platform.” No one has said “you must change your mind,” nor has anyone said “you must accept this change because I said so.” If anything, then I’ve stated many times that this is unlikely to happen anyway and isn’t exactly worth getting stirred up about.

I'll also add there are some valid concerns here that I haven't addressed as I was primarily clearing up misinformation

Stuff like (this not exhaustive)

1) I just don't want it
2) concerned that more groups will use voice chat for call outs when the user specifically prefer text call outs. Right now they find text pugs easy to get.
3) dev resources are better spent on something else (ETA: this is a big and fair reason and is the reason devs haven't and probably won't add it).
4) area chat would have a bunch of coughing and music in it

Nobody has to like it and there are certainly valid reasons to not want it on PC. It's just that "you can't turn it off" is not one. You can turn it off. It already exists so we don't have to guess.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I can’t imagine how you PC guys ever run a vet trials group without voice chat.

We do use voice chat. We use Discord and have been all along.

But once again I don't understand why console players care if we have voice on PC or not. We are not asking console to change how they do things. Let us do things how we like.

SilverBride wrote: »

But once again I don't understand why console players care if we have voice on PC or not.

Same. It's not like "No" just has a plurality on this, it has a 10-point majority over every other option combined. It's not especially controversial.

It's unnecessary, it opens up the door for unintended and unpleasant community knock-on effects even if it's "optional," it takes resources to implement, it's absolutely going to introduce a whole host of new bugs (because consoles don't have to worry about compatibility issues, driver issues, etc.), and it adds to the burden of server performance.

All this, when we already have a voice chat that works immeasurably better than native voice chat, and which can be easily limited to only the people we want to hear from and nobody we don't. One that doesn't require us to hunt through game menus or waste several of our limited keybinds to turn on and off. A single click turns off just sound, just speaking, activates or deactivates push-to-talk, or all of the above. One that's moderated, so on the off chance that someone misbehaves (which is less likely among a group of intentionally chosen people compared to "anyone nearby"), it can be dealt with effectively and promptly (even if the mod isn't on voice, all the witnesses are easily findable to give their account of the event).

Native guild voice chat and group voice chat are much more easily defensible than general proximity voice chat, which has no significant use-case on PC.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Proximity voice chat, guild voice chat, and group voice chat are all bundled together on console.

I do not know how to more clearly express that I do not care what happens on console, nor do I particularly care to make PC more like console. I do not know how to more clearly express that what console has or does not have is entirely irrelevant to my ESO experience. Please tell me what I need to say to get that point across more effectively.

So, them enabling the existing feature means enabling all of those. Saying no to this feature is also saying no to native guild and group chat.

Ok, then no. It's unnecessary and will cause all of the issues I already listed above. 55% of us have already said "no."

Voice chat is easy to enable so you only hear from who you want to hear from.

The only people I want to hear from are already on Discord. How many of my limited keybinds will I have to remap to make this work, when my current media controls are dedicated buttons on my keyboard?

There are very few bad actors because the area is extremely small.

So we'll only be enabling a few more bad actors, for no appreciable benefit over the current system whatsoever. Other than the hypothetical people who want voice but not bad enough to use the most popular PC voice program.

It is moderated by Zenimax and it is easy to report bad actors.

So they are recording it? Or is it a "he said, she said" style of moderation if you can't track down the other randos who were in that specific area at that specific time and convince them to join your report?

said no one ever wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sorry I was skimming for a while but find this amusing.

There are lots of times when people argue that an optional thing added to the game does not affect you, and you can just not use it. It’s a frequent argument for posts of this nature.

Funny how almost everyone in PC is doing the exact opposite here. Even if they could leave it turned off, they vehemently argue against it being added at all. There are some players who might find it helpful.

I can’t imagine how you PC guys ever run a vet trials group without voice chat. Just doing some group finder normal trials where no one wanted to voice chat were long, painful experiences filled with disaster.

You dream up all sorts of hypothetical reasons of what it would be, even though we console players tell you it is not like that. No one can force you to use game voice chat on console, or discord. But keep on thinking that way if you like.

[snip] WE DONT WANT IT.

Some people don't want it, but clearly some people do want it. The poll is intended to show what percentage of the forum population prefer one or the other.

[edited to remove quote]

said no one ever wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

said no one ever wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Sorry I was skimming for a while but find this amusing.

There are lots of times when people argue that an optional thing added to the game does not affect you, and you can just not use it. It’s a frequent argument for posts of this nature.

Funny how almost everyone in PC is doing the exact opposite here. Even if they could leave it turned off, they vehemently argue against it being added at all. There are some players who might find it helpful.

I can’t imagine how you PC guys ever run a vet trials group without voice chat. Just doing some group finder normal trials where no one wanted to voice chat were long, painful experiences filled with disaster.

You dream up all sorts of hypothetical reasons of what it would be, even though we console players tell you it is not like that. No one can force you to use game voice chat on console, or discord. But keep on thinking that way if you like.

[snip] WE DONT WANT IT.

Some people don't want it, but clearly some people do want it. The poll is intended to show what percentage of the forum population prefer one or the other.

and a clear majority 54% dont want it

As of right now. The forum population who voted aren't even half of the overall population of the game. The poll is hardly representative of what the ESO community actually wants, regardless of which side is winning the poll.

Really, the poll and question are just for fun. ZOS doesn't make decisions based on what players vote on.

[edited to remove quote]

I don't see why not, it has all benefits and no drawbacks. If it's off by default, you won't notice unless you want to notice. It could improve dungeon experiences and sometimes it's just entertaining.

I also want to mention how important voice chat would be for accessibility on PC. Currently consoles have Speech to Text for in game voice chat which can optionally be turned on for those who are deaf/hard of hearing. PC does not have this since it does not have voice chat. Additionally, Discord does not support speech to text in any viable way whatsoever. You can try to have a speech to text bot in the discord server, but it is very slow and does a bad job of transcribing.

I unexpectedly became deaf suddenly due to a health condition, and I remained that way for 8 months. I wasn't able to participate in anything that required me to hear discord chat on PC which includes most endgame PvE, and PvP with friends. I originally came from Xbox NA so I had a fully leveled console account to fall back on. Xbox offers both speech to text for party chat and speech to text for in game voice chats. This can really make all the difference in the world for those who are deaf/hard of hearing and want to participate in content that requires voice chat.

So if you are opposing something like this which has such big implications for accessibility, think again.

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Really, the poll and question are just for fun.

I haven't found anything fun about being told that we are wrong for not wanting this feature.

By opposing this you are opposing improved accessibility for the deaf/hard of hearing.

It doesn’t make sense to me why anyone would oppose something that has 0 drawbacks to them, but makes a world of a difference for someone else.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

By opposing this you are opposing improved accessibility for the deaf/hard of hearing.

Nonsense. How does that even track? "I can't hear well, so I need to have people talk to me with their voices rather than type words I can read" is not a thing my audio processing disorder has ever led me to say.

It tracks because since consoles have voice chat, players can turn on “Speech to Text” under the accessibility settings. Turning this on will make it so that speech spoken in game voice chat appears in the HUD like a typed message.

Speech to text is a feature that Discord still doesn’t offer in a viable way. Without it, someone who has trouble hearing would have to ask their group members to type to them to accommodate them.

Having an automatic speech to text option is way more accommodating, since it makes it so that you don’t feel like a burden to your group members and you aren’t left out of the voice conversation going on.