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From Fun to Frustration: How Toxicity is Killing Content in ESO
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Koshka✭✭✭✭✭It's also important to mention that endgame content in ESO does not just require good individual performance, you need to adapt and learn as a group. So those who are not willing to change their build and playstyle no matter will still have troubles getting spots in teams even if ZOS buffs all 1 bar builds by 200%.
If I was recruiting for a prog team, I'd definitely see "I am not changing anything about my approach to the game no matter what" as a red flag. Even though a lot of content in ESO is beatable with non-meta setups, I've even seen an oakensorc PB a while ago (though that was done by an already experienced team).Humans generally perform at peak performance for 2 hours before needing a break. I had a class once that was over 2 hours and we took a break halfway through for this reason. Same reason guild runs are almost always 2 hour time blocks. A prog for 2 hours is fine, I too don’t understand the argument that it’s not, but after 2 hours people quickly get worse and it’s time to call it and try again another time. Especially with some of the newer HMs requiring a lot of brainpower.
It's all fine with two hours of progression, more or less. It all depends on the team. I have nothing against that or anything to say about it.
But regarding the idea that "some of the newer HMs require a lot of brainpower," I have to disagree, or at least clarify my thoughts;
Take vDSR, for example, the first boss. Players don’t need brainpower; they just need to know their roles: one takes the dome, another interrupts. Where’s the brainpower? In making sure they don’t touch the blade with the dome?
vLC HM, first boss, debuff trash and kill them. What more do you need? Players don’t need brainpower for that… just follow basic mechanics: debuff, healer taunts and stacks, and DDs kill the trash.
vLC HM, switch your mirror when needed. What more do you need? This isn’t brainpower. it’s just mechanics they already learn in Veteran!
Players need brainpower and memory to handle all mechanics while maintaining a perfect rotation just to be accepted into groups. But where’s the brainpower in rolling or moving out of the way of the Wamasu in vLC? It’s about knowing the mechanics, roll, move, done.
And I’m absolutely sure, 100% sure, that both 1bar and 2bar players can do this, as long as they know what to do.
Brainpower is needed when you're pushing for trifectas. I can agree with that. But no one here is talking about trifectas! So…?
If "brainpower" was not needed for vet content, anyone would be able to clear any vet or hm trial with no issues whatsoever since we have easy builds such as arcanists and one bar builds. But in reality people tend to panic, fail mechanics, fail to move as a group, etc. Most, if not all trial and dungeon mechanics sound easy on paper, but when you try them with a new group, they are suddenly difficult.
You should really give raid leading a try. It's an fun experience and it will also help you understand others better.8 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You’re talking about DPS when there’s 2 tanks and 2 healers that also need to stay in the group for as long as it’s running, let alone the lead having to juggle the group and mechanics. SE HM first boss as MT is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tanked, because you take a lot of damage, get little healing (can’t heal yourself either), need to move around a lot to the right places at the right time, manage your sustain on your own, etc. Bahsei is also hard on the tanks (at least the OT), but I haven’t tanked Bahsei on HM before. I have only DPS’d DSR HM, but the 2nd and 3rd bosses sound like they’re hard on the MT.
Maybe it’s just me, but my brain gets tired after tanking for too long in some content due to brainpower usage and as a result, my performance drops.
Okay, help me understand this…
Why does spending two hours in a group trying to clear an HM boss somehow require more brainpower when the group is full of 2bar players, compared to a group that’s a mix of 1bar and 2bar players?
What’s the actual difference between spending two hours inside a trial with a mix of both?
A truly skilled group, a perfect group, can complete any trifecta trial in under 30 minutes. So if we’re talking about a two-hour session, we’re clearly talking about average, normal players, right?
So what’s the difference?
I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 4/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 32/32 HMs - 25/26 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
3 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You’re talking about DPS when there’s 2 tanks and 2 healers that also need to stay in the group for as long as it’s running, let alone the lead having to juggle the group and mechanics. SE HM first boss as MT is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tanked, because you take a lot of damage, get little healing (can’t heal yourself either), need to move around a lot to the right places at the right time, manage your sustain on your own, etc. Bahsei is also hard on the tanks (at least the OT), but I haven’t tanked Bahsei on HM before. I have only DPS’d DSR HM, but the 2nd and 3rd bosses sound like they’re hard on the MT.
Maybe it’s just me, but my brain gets tired after tanking for too long in some content due to brainpower usage and as a result, my performance drops.
Okay, help me understand this…
Why does spending two hours in a group trying to clear an HM boss somehow require more brainpower when the group is full of 2bar players, compared to a group that’s a mix of 1bar and 2bar players?
What’s the actual difference between spending two hours inside a trial with a mix of both?
A truly skilled group, a perfect group, can complete any trifecta trial in under 30 minutes. So if we’re talking about a two-hour session, we’re clearly talking about average, normal players, right?
So what’s the difference?
I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
You can clear Rockgrove HM with heavy attack builds. It just won't be fun for the supports unless they're also HA build enthusiasts.2 -
abkam✭✭✭I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
"The strats the lead uses aren’t compatible with HA builds"
does that mean HA can’t do it? Does that mean HA players will perform worse than others? And what kind of others are we even talking about?
Of course, the leader has the right to choose whatever setup they want for their group. But none of that proves that HA can’t do it. Absolutely nothing.
And with that last comment, I’m truly stepping away and won’t respond in this topic anymore. The discussion has gone way off-topic from the original point, I know I contributed to that, but all I see are words saying "HA can't do it" without a single shred of proof why HA can’t do it!
Love you all—free hugs! ❤️
Edited by abkam on March 5, 2025 7:00PM1 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭You’re talking about DPS when there’s 2 tanks and 2 healers that also need to stay in the group for as long as it’s running, let alone the lead having to juggle the group and mechanics. SE HM first boss as MT is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tanked, because you take a lot of damage, get little healing (can’t heal yourself either), need to move around a lot to the right places at the right time, manage your sustain on your own, etc. Bahsei is also hard on the tanks (at least the OT), but I haven’t tanked Bahsei on HM before. I have only DPS’d DSR HM, but the 2nd and 3rd bosses sound like they’re hard on the MT.
Maybe it’s just me, but my brain gets tired after tanking for too long in some content due to brainpower usage and as a result, my performance drops.
Okay, help me understand this…
Why does spending two hours in a group trying to clear an HM boss somehow require more brainpower when the group is full of 2bar players, compared to a group that’s a mix of 1bar and 2bar players?
What’s the actual difference between spending two hours inside a trial with a mix of both?
A truly skilled group, a perfect group, can complete any trifecta trial in under 30 minutes. So if we’re talking about a two-hour session, we’re clearly talking about average, normal players, right?
So what’s the difference?
I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
You can clear Rockgrove HM with heavy attack builds. It just won't be fun for the supports unless they're also HA build enthusiasts.
Log name will be rip kite healer in Oxa hm4 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But they won't let him do anything with the crowns HE OWNS.
That's not accurate. He can still spend the Crowns he owns on himself. He just can't gift Crown Store items to others. I don't know why so many players have trouble getting that option enabled, but there must be/have been a lot of bad actors abusing it for the option to have been made so difficult to get.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
Koshka✭✭✭✭✭I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
"The strats the lead uses aren’t compatible with HA builds"
does that mean HA can’t do it? Does that mean HA players will perform worse than others? And what kind of others are we even talking about?
Of course, the leader has the right to choose whatever setup they want for their group. But none of that proves that HA can’t do it. Absolutely nothing.
And with that last comment, I’m truly stepping away and won’t respond in this topic anymore. The discussion has gone way off-topic from the original point, I know I contributed to that, but all I see are words saying "HA can't do it" without a single shred of proof why HA can’t do it!
Love you all—free hugs! ❤️
Then prove them wrong. Be the change you want to see!
You are saying that you know the mechs really well. And I am sure there is a lot of 1 bar enthusiasts who wouldn't mind getting hm titles. So what's the issue? All the elitists in the world cannot stop you from making a group, hopping on discord and giving it a try.
I am not sarcastic, btw. Since you said that you are not trying to get triples, this might just work. But calling people toxic for playing as they want is not gonna change anything.9 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
"The strats the lead uses aren’t compatible with HA builds"
does that mean HA can’t do it? Does that mean HA players will perform worse than others? And what kind of others are we even talking about?
Of course, the leader has the right to choose whatever setup they want for their group. But none of that proves that HA can’t do it. Absolutely nothing.
And with that last comment, I’m truly stepping away and won’t respond in this topic anymore. The discussion has gone way off-topic from the original point, I know I contributed to that, but all I see are words saying "HA can't do it" without a single shred of proof why HA can’t do it!
Love you all—free hugs! ❤️
Then prove them wrong. Be the change you want to see!
You are saying that you know the mechs really well. And I am sure there is a lot of 1 bar enthusiasts who wouldn't mind getting hm titles. So what's the issue? All the elitists in the world cannot stop you from making a group, hopping on discord and giving it a try.
I am not sarcastic, btw. Since you said that you are not trying to get triples, this might just work. But calling people toxic for playing as they want is not gonna change anything.
I thought this was about Crown gifting?1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I said nothing about HA players, I’m just saying 2 hours is maximum for a HM clear for most people. Higher DPS = shorter fights = easier on supports and more reps, but the only trial I can think of that objectively causes problems when there’s too many HA is Cloudrest because of Relequen. Xalvakka does still have a high DPS check but I don’t know the math on if a few HA will make it impossible to clear.
That said, HA may not be welcomed into groups still based on the lead’s experience with other HA players or, as Sarah pointed out, the strats the lead uses isn’t compatible with HA builds. Leads get to choose how they want to run their trial. Sometimes that means you have to lead things yourself.
"The strats the lead uses aren’t compatible with HA builds"
does that mean HA can’t do it? Does that mean HA players will perform worse than others? And what kind of others are we even talking about?
Of course, the leader has the right to choose whatever setup they want for their group. But none of that proves that HA can’t do it. Absolutely nothing.
And with that last comment, I’m truly stepping away and won’t respond in this topic anymore. The discussion has gone way off-topic from the original point, I know I contributed to that, but all I see are words saying "HA can't do it" without a single shred of proof why HA can’t do it!
Love you all—free hugs! ❤️
> says HA can do most trials but not in every manner
> gets rant about HA not being able to do things
OakenHA builds are trapped by their maximum damage (less than 2-bar), the sets they use, and the AoE damage. OakenHA can’t single-target stacked enemies, or use mechanical acuity, or war machine, or azureblight. You can’t bring an OakenHA build to a burn strat, it won’t burn. Can only bring them to regular runs. Which is fine, but won’t be able to play with the big guns is all.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 4/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 32/32 HMs - 25/26 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
5 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭...take only 2bar players, who, ironically, perform far worse than 1bar players. Genius move!
You keep saying that, and it's very wrong.
Putting the 16 of them at the same level of knowledge and skill, a group of 8 2-bar build bad, mediocre or good dps players, will outperform by far a group of 8 1-bar HA build bad, mediocre or good dps players.
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Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
Edited by Desiato on March 5, 2025 7:41PMspending a year dead for tax reasons12 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?Edited by sans-culottes on March 5, 2025 7:59PM2 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?
I can respond to that. When I'm playing a game I want to continually push myself to be better, and most accessibility focused builds just aren't capable of hitting the levels I want to hit. When I start running into issues with my hands, I take breaks to let them heal rather than switching to a build that can't perform at the level I want to perform at.10 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭
One you can complete with 7 other DDs all putting out the same DPS as you?
If you're talking about Trifectas, I can agree with you... (Maybe not...well... i can.... but...) But if you're talking about any HM—yes, any HM (Cloudrest +3 included)—invite me and show me one I can’t complete because of the HA build.
It's one thing to complete a hard mode with experienced players and another to pull your weight. Something else to bear in mind, low DPS prolongs fights putting extra strain on the supports too. It's not about being toxic, more realistic about comfortable completion
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sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in. Accepting pain with video games is not, well, acceptable to me. Part of the issue is the frenetic, repetitive movements that exacerbate various conditions. There are lots of simple things that could be done, at least in theory. In practice, these have been two mythic items.sans-culottes wrote: »I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?
I can respond to that. When I'm playing a game I want to continually push myself to be better, and most accessibility focused builds just aren't capable of hitting the levels I want to hit. When I start running into issues with my hands, I take breaks to let them heal rather than switching to a build that can't perform at the level I want to perform at.
Edited by sans-culottes on March 5, 2025 9:46PM3 -
Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭JiubLeRepenti wrote: »Regarding the original post, here's how I see things:
First of all, concerning ESO, and after playing several other successful MMOs, I think ESO has by far one of the chillest communities. I’ve spent 10,000 hours in the game, and probably more than half of that has been spent in instances (dungeons, trials, etc.), and I think I’ve only been flamed a few times at my very beginning when I was playing like an idiot without following mechs (that was 100% deserved btw).
Second, regarding difficulty, it's not surprising to me that people are nicer in normal trials. It's because you know that, in 99 % of cases, you will complete them. This is not always the case with some veteran trials. I recently left a group during the final boss of vDSR because a DPS was keeping bombing the entire group by not getting into the water when he had to.
Third, regarding the DPS, I obviously have no opinion on you enjoying playing with HA builds. They're very effective for the minimal effort they require, and while I personally find them boring af to play, I understand that many people enjoy them.
Fourth, I don’t see any veteran trials that couldn’t be completed even with 8 HA DPS, each dealing 90-100k DPS on mobs and bosses. I think many raid leaders have a serious bias or lack of understanding of how strong HA builds are. Some of them are just... well, elitists who think you can't complete a trial with less than 120k per DPS.
If someone flames you for playing an HA build, there are three possible reasons:- he doesn’t understand how an HA build works.
- he's an elitist jerk who thinks you don’t deserve to be in the group with such an easy-to-play build.
- hejust wants to farm and go very quickly with very, VERY strong DPS that bring 120k+ per head.
In conclusion:- Do I think a DPS should be kicked from an instance because of his HA build? Certainly not.
- Am I surprised that people are more likely to argue in veteran trials rather than in normal trials? Absolutely not.
- Do I think ESO is being killed by toxicity? Gosh no, it's My Little Poney Simulator compared to other MMOs I did.
“…it’s My Little Poney Simulator compared to other MMOs I did.” My favorite line in a long while! 😊4 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »
That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in. Accepting pain with video games is not, well, acceptable to me. Part of the issue is the frenetic, repetitive movements that exacerbate various conditions. There are lots of simple things that could be done, at least in theory. In practice, these have been two mythic items.sans-culottes wrote: »I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?
I can respond to that. When I'm playing a game I want to continually push myself to be better, and most accessibility focused builds just aren't capable of hitting the levels I want to hit. When I start running into issues with my hands, I take breaks to let them heal rather than switching to a build that can't perform at the level I want to perform at.
I don't have pain while I'm playing typically. Just stiffness/soreness the next day, sometimes.
And I just can't think of a way to have the same challenge by dumbing down combat. Where is the challenge if there's less of a dexterity requirement? I already prefer to not play arcanist if I can help it.5 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »
That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in. Accepting pain with video games is not, well, acceptable to me. Part of the issue is the frenetic, repetitive movements that exacerbate various conditions. There are lots of simple things that could be done, at least in theory. In practice, these have been two mythic items.sans-culottes wrote: »I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?
I can respond to that. When I'm playing a game I want to continually push myself to be better, and most accessibility focused builds just aren't capable of hitting the levels I want to hit. When I start running into issues with my hands, I take breaks to let them heal rather than switching to a build that can't perform at the level I want to perform at.
I don't have pain while I'm playing typically. Just stiffness/soreness the next day, sometimes.
And I just can't think of a way to have the same challenge by dumbing down combat. Where is the challenge if there's less of a dexterity requirement? I already prefer to not play arcanist if I can help it.
So to be clear, lots of other games have combat systems with less frenetic motion than this. Examples like Neverwinter and New World are basically ESO with cooldowns, and I doubt anyone would confuse Elden Ring for Animal Crossing.
This community is often hostile to, say, the combat systems in FF and WoW, and it’s be very surprising and unlikely for ZOS to adopt this strategy now. But offering more ways of interacting with the game and making them meaningful—and competitive—wouldn’t somehow equate to a “dumbing down.”1 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭
A truly skilled group, a perfect group, can complete any trifecta trial in under 30 minutes. So if we’re talking about a two-hour session, we’re clearly talking about average, normal players, right?
So what’s the difference?
This reads like it's written by someone with little or no experience in newer DLC hardmodes. Good players that are better than "average, normal" players take weeks or months to prog a hard mode let alone a trifecta and many progs will give up after months of prog without even getting the hard mode clear. Many groups will leave the trial after getting their first hard mode clear too, for various reasons and not go on to prog the trifecta. Only much, much better than average players go on to the stage when they can complete the newer HMs every time they attempt one no matter the time taken.8 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »
That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in. Accepting pain with video games is not, well, acceptable to me. Part of the issue is the frenetic, repetitive movements that exacerbate various conditions. There are lots of simple things that could be done, at least in theory. In practice, these have been two mythic items.sans-culottes wrote: »I've read through this thread without any examples of actual toxicity in the trial community.
In general, I feel the word toxic is used too freely in this day and age and what it really means in most cases is "I'm frustrated because these circumstances don't suit me."
As I've posted many times before, there is an open trial community in ESO that is extremely welcoming, including to those using heavy attack builds.
Does that mean every type of player is welcome everywhere? Nope! We all have different preferences about how we like to play. I'm excluded from a lot of groups I'd like to play in either because the other players don't know me well enough or I don't meet their requirements. That is not toxic in any way whatsoever. I can choose to adapt or find other players I fit in with better. I'm not entitled to play with those players on my terms.
I'm old with bad hands too. Sometimes I need to take some time off like I have recently. However, I don't want any special treatment or the game to be nerfed to accommodate my failing body. I want younger people to be able to enjoy competitive gaming like I did. I'm currently playing in a tri core of players half my age and it's a challenge for me which I love, but I know I won't be able to pull it off much longer. When I can't, I will accept it with humility.
I think the discussion re: hands is a red herring as it’s not the purpose of this thread. However, I’m surprised you’d say you’d just quit and that’s that. Why not, you know, advocate for things that could broaden the game, rather than narrow its appeal?
I can respond to that. When I'm playing a game I want to continually push myself to be better, and most accessibility focused builds just aren't capable of hitting the levels I want to hit. When I start running into issues with my hands, I take breaks to let them heal rather than switching to a build that can't perform at the level I want to perform at.
I don't have pain while I'm playing typically. Just stiffness/soreness the next day, sometimes.
And I just can't think of a way to have the same challenge by dumbing down combat. Where is the challenge if there's less of a dexterity requirement? I already prefer to not play arcanist if I can help it.
So to be clear, lots of other games have combat systems with less frenetic motion than this. Examples like Neverwinter and New World are basically ESO with cooldowns, and I doubt anyone would confuse Elden Ring for Animal Crossing.
This community is often hostile to, say, the combat systems in FF and WoW, and it’s be very surprising and unlikely for ZOS to adopt this strategy now. But offering more ways of interacting with the game and making them meaningful—and competitive—wouldn’t somehow equate to a “dumbing down.”
I disliked New World combat immensely, it felt so repetitive and boring. And having played WoW I didn't particularly enjoy the combat there also. Super passive with targeting macros and other things and having to bind things to 18 different mouse buttons wasn't engaging. All I did was stare at timers.4 -
Thysbe✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in.
Luckliy my hands are still fine but my response time is getting worse the last 5 years.
ESO is mostly a rather slow and predictable game in PVE so its fine for now but I stopped doing trial triples for exactly that reason - I can´t guarantee that I dodge an untaunted Torturer in vKA HM within time or cover similar situations.
Following your suggestions I should demand that overall movement is slowed or the miss of a reaction shouldn´t be punished that hard. I am fine with it. I don´t demand that every content is catered to my abilities and that better and fitter players want something challenging too.
7 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »That’s not what I asked, although I’m glad that works for you. I mean, why wouldn’t you advocate for yourself to, e.g., the devs? Or advocate for other ways to make something you like something you can continue to participate in.
Luckliy my hands are still fine but my response time is getting worse the last 5 years.
ESO is mostly a rather slow and predictable game in PVE so its fine for now but I stopped doing trial triples for exactly that reason - I can´t guarantee that I dodge an untaunted Torturer in vKA HM within time or cover similar situations.
Following your suggestions I should demand that overall movement is slowed or the miss of a reaction shouldn´t be punished that hard. I am fine with it. I don´t demand that every content is catered to my abilities and that better and fitter players want something challenging too.
You can demand whatever you want! Just be sure you recognize that demanding it won’t necessarily do anything other than ensure that you’ve expressed your opinion. But hey! There’s always that chance it could. There’s definitely NOT a chance if you don’t do or say anything.
I should clarify too that this is a console-related issue. I’m a bit confused by “better and fitter,” though, as let’s be very clear: This isn’t rugby or something. It’s a video game. I suspect keyboard and mouse support would help.Edited by sans-culottes on March 5, 2025 10:15PM2 -
Thysbe✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »This isn’t rugby or something. It’s a video game.
Reaction time and muscle memory get poorer as you age regardless of what you do. Thinking you can still perform with 40/50+ the way you did in your twenties is just delusional. But if you never played on a really competitive level or with really talented young gamers you might not notice the difference.
Edited by Thysbe on March 5, 2025 10:41PM5 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »This isn’t rugby or something. It’s a video game.
Reaction time and muscle memory get poorer as you age regardless of what you do. Thinking you can still perform with 40/50+ the way you did in your twenties is just delusional. But if you never played on a really competitive level or with really talented young gamers you might not notice the difference.
No offense, but this is silly. It’s a video game, and it’s delusional to think this is equivalent to being a professional athlete. I don’t have any interest in a hobby where it’s work and not fun. You do you, dude. If injuring yourself because of video games is your cup of tea, then Godspeed.
PS. No one’s disagreeing with this point re: reaction speed. I mean, sure. All I suggested was “it’d be nice for other playstyles to be accommodated without others fearing that this would somehow diminish their enjoyment.” I think I also suggested that it’s not unreasonable to offer suggestions, e.g., on the forum they operate for that purpose.Edited by sans-culottes on March 5, 2025 10:55PM6 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭...all I see are words saying "HA can't do it" without a single shred of proof why HA can’t do it!
Same goes for you saying that casual 1-bar HA players can. So show us proof they can.
Go. Form a group for Dreadsail Reef, Sanity's Edge and Lucent Citadel hard modes in zone chat, ask for eight 1-bar HA dps players and see how it goes.
By the way, make sure you grab tanks and healers that don't study, don't work, don't have families nor life, and don't care to be in front of their computers 24/7 for a few years.Edited by Dragonnord on March 5, 2025 10:58PM8 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My head started spinning for a moment as I tried to figure out how crown gifting is related to so-called toxicity in the game. They are not related.
As for the so-called toxicity, I have always suggested that players find a guild that fits their needs and playstyle. Many guilds are happy to accommodate any playstyle. I was in a very casual guild that let anyone in as long as they were friendly. When they started doing vet trials, they were failing miserably. In some fights, three of us did 80% of the damage. Six were doing only 20% of the damage. They set a minimal set of requirements, where some improved to meet them, while a couple needed to be replaced. We started clearing the raid.
Were they toxic for setting requirements and replacing some players because they did not do well enough? No. They made responsible decisions for the group and guild, and each player made their choice.
Again, each player needs to find guilds that meet their wants and playstyle. Good luck finding the right guild and getting the gifting taken care of.
7 -
Koshka✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »This isn’t rugby or something. It’s a video game.
Reaction time and muscle memory get poorer as you age regardless of what you do. Thinking you can still perform with 40/50+ the way you did in your twenties is just delusional. But if you never played on a really competitive level or with really talented young gamers you might not notice the difference.
No offense, but this is silly. It’s a video game, and it’s delusional to think this is equivalent to being a professional athlete. I don’t have any interest in a hobby where it’s work and not fun. You do you, dude. If injuring yourself because of video games is your cup of tea, then Godspeed.
PS. No one’s disagreeing with this point re: reaction speed. I mean, sure. All I suggested was “it’d be nice for other playstyles to be accommodated without others fearing that this would somehow diminish their enjoyment.” I think I also suggested that it’s not unreasonable to offer suggestions, e.g., on the forum they operate for that purpose.
The question is, how exactly do you accomodate for every single playstyle without significantly lowering the difficulty (which is the main appeal of hardmodes)?
Some people can't/won't use optimized builds (so you can't have any dps checks), some only play in 1st person (no mechanics that involve ground aoes), some have really high ping or very unstable connections (no mechanics that require quick reaction), some are struggling with different health issues, etc. Making something for everyone is a nice idea in principle, but implementing it would be close to impossible if you also want to maintain a certain level of challenge.
I personally think that vet modes should be accessible, but hms are supposed to be, well, hard.10 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Toxicity from guilds in trials has driven my wife and I away from the game on multiple occasions. She has played since 2014. Probably not done 5 trials in that time due to the amount of toxic attitudes she had to deal with.
If you can't light weave attack, you will get griefed. Been that way for years upon years now. Light attack weaving literally keeps a portion of the population from enjoying the game."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes3 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Toxicity from guilds in trials has driven my wife and I away from the game on multiple occasions. She has played since 2014. Probably not done 5 trials in that time due to the amount of toxic attitudes she had to deal with.
If you can't light weave attack, you will get griefed. Been that way for years upon years now. Light attack weaving literally keeps a portion of the population from enjoying the game.
I guess I have been pretty lucky finding and sticking with some of the guilds I have joined. It looks like you are on PC-NA, check out Maxwell House Gamers family of guilds. They are very new player friendly and do trial events of all skill levels (less so into hardmodes). It is the most active guild I am in for events, the family that runs it puts a lot of effort and time into and it shows. To top that they have a trader almost every week, no dues, no requirements other than trying to sell and login according to the activity policy.
I have a few other guilds I run trials and content with but they tend to focus more on veteran level. One I do a core with twice a week and they usually have one or two open trial runs, and the other is a trade guild also which does veteran trials three times a week.
I would have never got into trials until much later had it not been for the first guild, starting out with normals and moving into vets. If you find a good guild they are more than likely going to be willing to help give the feedback and resources to help you guys at least get a solid heavy attack build going and progress from there. I'm sure there are toxic guilds and people out there, I have mostly just ran into the random turd in random dungeons. I don't think I've ever been personally attacked in a trial group.1 -
VoxAdActa✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »This isn’t rugby or something. It’s a video game.
Reaction time and muscle memory get poorer as you age regardless of what you do. Thinking you can still perform with 40/50+ the way you did in your twenties is just delusional. But if you never played on a really competitive level or with really talented young gamers you might not notice the difference.
No offense, but this is silly. It’s a video game, and it’s delusional to think this is equivalent to being a professional athlete. I don’t have any interest in a hobby where it’s work and not fun. You do you, dude. If injuring yourself because of video games is your cup of tea, then Godspeed.
PS. No one’s disagreeing with this point re: reaction speed. I mean, sure. All I suggested was “it’d be nice for other playstyles to be accommodated without others fearing that this would somehow diminish their enjoyment.” I think I also suggested that it’s not unreasonable to offer suggestions, e.g., on the forum they operate for that purpose.
The question is, how exactly do you accomodate for every single playstyle without significantly lowering the difficulty (which is the main appeal of hardmodes)?
Some people can't/won't use optimized builds (so you can't have any dps checks), some only play in 1st person (no mechanics that involve ground aoes), some have really high ping or very unstable connections (no mechanics that require quick reaction), some are struggling with different health issues, etc. Making something for everyone is a nice idea in principle, but implementing it would be close to impossible if you also want to maintain a certain level of challenge.
I personally think that vet modes should be accessible, but hms are supposed to be, well, hard.
Exactly. ESO attempts to do the "something for everyone" model by having lots of different content with different difficulty levels. Overland, delves, public dungeons, world events, world bosses, base-game dungeons, DLC dungeons, vet dungeons, HM dungeons, and so on up the ladder.
What I keep seeing in these forums is a tug-of-war between the people who need accessibility (for whatever reasons, from personal to medical) and the people who climb that ladder toward the harder end of the scale. The easier end of the scale keeps asking for things to make the hard stuff easier, and the harder end of the scale keeps asking for things to make the easy stuff harder (ref: the huge Overland Difficulty thread).
Both sets of players cannot be satisfied with the same content, which is why there's such a granular content-difficulty scale in this game to begin with.
Everyone recognizes that the largest segment of players will be about in the middle, but also, everyone thinks they're "in the middle." The people who do vet trials think they're "in the middle" because they're not pushing trifectas, and the people who top out at base-game normal PUGs think they're "in the middle," too. Me too. I solo base-game normals and some base-game vets, and I think I'm probably "in the middle".
So the easier-end content people think of themselves as "in the middle," and wonder why ZOS is making all this super hard content "most people" won't ever get to do. Meanwhile, the harder-end content people also think they're "in the middle" and wonder why ZOS is keeping overland so boring and making items/classes that allow for boring 1-bar builds that "most people" will never need.Edited by VoxAdActa on March 6, 2025 1:20AM5