From Fun to Frustration: How Toxicity is Killing Content in ESO

spartaxoxo

Morvan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of them came here to ensure that demanding nerfs specifically to damage to heavy attack builds so they couldn't do certain achievements.

HA builds did have their uprise at a very weird time, around U35, right? They were nerfing tons of things, but I can't really recall how much significantly better they were performing before the nerfs.

If I'm not mistaken even at their peak HA was still weaker than standard builds, but I guess people just wanted to increase the gap for the lack of effort involved on getting those numbers.

I do honestly think HA was nerfed so Arcanist could take its niche, it's basically the class for easy and accessible DPS, and it works much better than HA ever did.

Yes, even at their peak, HA builds were significantly weaker than 2 bar builds in terms of maximum output.

The reason they were being overused was because of two things. It made content accessible to tons of people who never could do it before. Because despite claims to the contrary, a lot of people couldn't weave well despite trying. And two, the survivability they offered made mistakes much more forgiving. So, people were finishing achievements more easily on HA builds than 2 bar builds because they had just enough damage to get anything done and too good survivability.

This is why I agreed at the time the survivability should be nerfed. Since there were groups requiring HA builds specifically so they didn't have to worry about people dying as much.

But a lot of endgame players didn't want the survivability nerfed because they did not want these builds to be viable at all.

abkam

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, even at their peak, HA builds were significantly weaker than 2 bar builds in terms of maximum output.

The reason they were being overused was because of two things. It made content accessible to tons of people who never could do it before. Because despite claims to the contrary, a lot of people couldn't weave well despite trying. And two, the survivability they offered made mistakes much more forgiving. So, people were finishing achievements more easily on HA builds than 2 bar builds because they had just enough damage to get anything done and too good survivability.

This is why I agreed at the time the survivability should be nerfed. Since there were groups requiring HA builds specifically so they didn't have to worry about people dying as much.

But a lot of endgame players didn't want the survivability nerfed because they did not want these builds to be viable at all.

You are absolutely correct. 2bar setups have always been better than any HA build. Even during HA strongest moments, 2bar builds have consistently outperformed them, there's no question about it.
Today, 2bar builds maintained their dominance, while HA builds lost a significant amount of DPS for no reason at all.

HA builds have always been viable and remain so today, especially when compared to players with bad rotations. That will never change. Even now, if an Arcanist’s performance is just average, an HA build will still parse better and offer more survivability. However, this isn’t because HA is inherently superior to 2bar builds, it’s because many 2bar players struggle with executing proper rotations.

And guess what? ZOS introduced Oakensoul precisely for those players who struggle with rotation management. Yet today, many of them blame HA builds simply because they can't achieve better results.

HA builds are strong and fully capable of handling any Hard Mode content in the game. And once again, if a 2bar player has bad rotation, an HA build will absolutely outperform them, 100% guaranteed.

Pixiepumpkin

abkam wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, even at their peak, HA builds were significantly weaker than 2 bar builds in terms of maximum output.

The reason they were being overused was because of two things. It made content accessible to tons of people who never could do it before. Because despite claims to the contrary, a lot of people couldn't weave well despite trying. And two, the survivability they offered made mistakes much more forgiving. So, people were finishing achievements more easily on HA builds than 2 bar builds because they had just enough damage to get anything done and too good survivability.

This is why I agreed at the time the survivability should be nerfed. Since there were groups requiring HA builds specifically so they didn't have to worry about people dying as much.

But a lot of endgame players didn't want the survivability nerfed because they did not want these builds to be viable at all.

You are absolutely correct. 2bar setups have always been better than any HA build. Even during HA strongest moments, 2bar builds have consistently outperformed them, there's no question about it.
Today, 2bar builds maintained their dominance, while HA builds lost a significant amount of DPS for no reason at all.

HA builds have always been viable and remain so today, especially when compared to players with bad rotations. That will never change. Even now, if an Arcanist’s performance is just average, an HA build will still parse better and offer more survivability. However, this isn’t because HA is inherently superior to 2bar builds, it’s because many 2bar players struggle with executing proper rotations.

And guess what? ZOS introduced Oakensoul precisely for those players who struggle with rotation management. Yet today, many of them blame HA builds simply because they can't achieve better results.

HA builds are strong and fully capable of handling any Hard Mode content in the game. And once again, if a 2bar player has bad rotation, an HA build will absolutely outperform them, 100% guaranteed.

HA is also better for folks with bad ping (out of our control, within ZOS control but they refuse to allow transfers).

I can't reliably bar swap. I can hit my bar swap hotkey, nothing happens, so I hit it again, then it changes and changes back. This on top of having to spam abilities because they don't fire, wasting magicka/stamina. Its just a complete exercise in frustration.

HA solves this issue for the most part (even then, I can't count the amount of times I have gone for a HA lighting staff on for it to not fire ((object behind a wall on their screen, not behind a wall on mine)).

I wish there were more options for HA builds. Personally I think oakensoul should give one more bar slot. The hotkey to swap bars would be the new ability key. This might help HA perform better, allowing for an additional dot/or utility key.

I still think the Oakensoul nerf was too much. Either bring back more of the major buffs, or give one more slot to compensate.

HA should be viable in any content, as some players have no real option to use anything else.

olsborg

Its the same way in pvp, just a littlebit bigger of a problem.

sans-culottes

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, even at their peak, HA builds were significantly weaker than 2 bar builds in terms of maximum output.

The reason they were being overused was because of two things. It made content accessible to tons of people who never could do it before. Because despite claims to the contrary, a lot of people couldn't weave well despite trying. And two, the survivability they offered made mistakes much more forgiving. So, people were finishing achievements more easily on HA builds than 2 bar builds because they had just enough damage to get anything done and too good survivability.

This is why I agreed at the time the survivability should be nerfed. Since there were groups requiring HA builds specifically so they didn't have to worry about people dying as much.

But a lot of endgame players didn't want the survivability nerfed because they did not want these builds to be viable at all.

You are absolutely correct. 2bar setups have always been better than any HA build. Even during HA strongest moments, 2bar builds have consistently outperformed them, there's no question about it.
Today, 2bar builds maintained their dominance, while HA builds lost a significant amount of DPS for no reason at all.

HA builds have always been viable and remain so today, especially when compared to players with bad rotations. That will never change. Even now, if an Arcanist’s performance is just average, an HA build will still parse better and offer more survivability. However, this isn’t because HA is inherently superior to 2bar builds, it’s because many 2bar players struggle with executing proper rotations.

And guess what? ZOS introduced Oakensoul precisely for those players who struggle with rotation management. Yet today, many of them blame HA builds simply because they can't achieve better results.

HA builds are strong and fully capable of handling any Hard Mode content in the game. And once again, if a 2bar player has bad rotation, an HA build will absolutely outperform them, 100% guaranteed.

HA is also better for folks with bad ping (out of our control, within ZOS control but they refuse to allow transfers).

I can't reliably bar swap. I can hit my bar swap hotkey, nothing happens, so I hit it again, then it changes and changes back. This on top of having to spam abilities because they don't fire, wasting magicka/stamina. Its just a complete exercise in frustration.

HA solves this issue for the most part (even then, I can't count the amount of times I have gone for a HA lighting staff on for it to not fire ((object behind a wall on their screen, not behind a wall on mine)).

I wish there were more options for HA builds. Personally I think oakensoul should give one more bar slot. The hotkey to swap bars would be the new ability key. This might help HA perform better, allowing for an additional dot/or utility key.

I still think the Oakensoul nerf was too much. Either bring back more of the major buffs, or give one more slot to compensate.

HA should be viable in any content, as some players have no real option to use anything else.

Good post. It’s a shame that different playstyles—and, more broadly, character power—are so heavily gated behind mythic items. It’d be nice to return some of those options, and some of that power, directly to the players.

For instance, a lot of the Champion Point system feels a bit redundant. While some passives technically offer similar perks, they’re often structured along the lines of “in situation X, do more damage Y for Z seconds,” which can feel overly restrictive.

Given the widely varying opinions on combat mechanics, accessibility, gear sets, and more, my personal preference would be for ZOS to give players back more agency, rather than locking it behind specific items.

Because gear progression isn’t strictly linear, we’ve ended up with massive set bloat. It’s unfortunate to see so many sets go unused, especially when those resources could have been spent improving other aspects of the game.

Orbital78

To me heavy attacks just flow more naturally than light attacks, I enjoy the playstyle the most. I still feel that these builds were nerfed too much and are not fully viable in vDSR HM+. If a group is successful, you are probably being somewhat carried by the rest of the group a little in these harder top contents. In sweaty groups I will always be towards the bottom of the pack no matter how well I play the style vs arcanists. I do think they were nerfed to bring in a shiny new class, the arcanist (which I enjoy as well) but they get boring for me after awhile. I also think they were nerfed because they couldn't code a pvp fix for the big aoe ticks. It kind of ruined the flow of the setups as that was one of the things I enjoyed about farming with the heavy attacks is that everything died clean and even or close. Now only arcanist does this for me.

Hopefully they can look at more sets to allow heavy attacks to proc them, adjust sets to add more base heavy attack damage that are HA focused, or find ways to give them a little more love. I'm pretty sure many players enjoy the playstyle.

tauriel01

OK so first, you can't title your post "From Fun to Frustration: How Toxicity is Killing Content in ESO" and then insist the post ISN'T about that but about gifting crowns.

Second, I see your BS crown response and raise you a bigger pile of doodoo. Almost 2 years ago now my husband stopped playing ESO. Deleted the game, etc. Went on to bigger and better things. Fast forward at least 7 or 8 mos, i realize he never stopped his monthly sub. I stopped it, checked his acct, he has about 35000 crowns! Well, I still play, and I can use those crowns, but his acct is not flagged to allow gifting. So he starts playing it again just to get that unlocked for me. Mind you, he doesn't WANT to play, he has very little time to play (and since he travels a lot on business, there are lengthy gaps in his play), and since my computer is the only one with ESO on it, he can only play when I am not on my computer.

This goes on for a month or two, him logging in almost daily, taking the reward, killing a mob or two, he joined my guild, we figure, that should work. So he requests crown gifting. Nope. No happiness. Many requests and escalations and weeks later, he finally gets someone to tell him "just keep playing the game, we aren't going to tell you what you still need to do to reach that ever elusive bar to get gifting turned on." ZOS was absolutely THRILLED to continue taking his money every month for MONTHS knowing he wasn't active. But they won't let him do anything with the crowns HE OWNS.

Fast forward four or five MORE MONTHS. And we are STILL playing this stupid game with ZOS. My husband still logs in when he can. He has leveled, like, three characters now? And still no gifting.

Tell me @ZOS_Kevin, how are you guys justifying this? What do you think my husband is going to do? He is going to gift me about 35000 crowns worth of stuff then never have to log in again. This was ridiculous months ago. It's unconscionable now. And a pretty poopoo way to run a business.

abkam

Orbital78 wrote: »

To me heavy attacks just flow more naturally than light attacks, I enjoy the playstyle the most. I still feel that these builds were nerfed too much and are not fully viable in vDSR HM+. If a group is successful, you are probably being somewhat carried by the rest of the group a little in these harder top contents. In sweaty groups I will always be towards the bottom of the pack no matter how well I play the style vs arcanists. I do think they were nerfed to bring in a shiny new class, the arcanist (which I enjoy as well) but they get boring for me after awhile. I also think they were nerfed because they couldn't code a pvp fix for the big aoe ticks. It kind of ruined the flow of the setups as that was one of the things I enjoyed about farming with the heavy attacks is that everything died clean and even or close. Now only arcanist does this for me.

Hopefully they can look at more sets to allow heavy attacks to proc them, adjust sets to add more base heavy attack damage that are HA focused, or find ways to give them a little more love. I'm pretty sure many players enjoy the playstyle.

If all DD's use HA for vDSR HM, who will be the one getting carried?? Or are you saying they simply can’t do it? We’re talking about HM here, and if it takes one or two hours, so be it. Again, we’re talking about HM. So, which HA player will be carried And don’t even start arguing that “2 hours is too much time” and all that “blablabla, because vDSR has been around for about four years, and even today, plenty of good players using 2bar still don’t have the full HM clear. Correct? I have the first two bosses from vLC, and I did them with HA. How many players using 2bar don’t even have one?

If you make a group with four Arcanists, one DK, one Templar, one Sorc, and whatever else, who exactly will be carried? The one with the lowest DPS? Just because someone did 80k DPS while the others did 85k? Or what exactly are we talking about here? Are you saying that only players with 100k DPS can complete vDSR HM? Or that if all DDs play with 2bar setups but can’t parse more than 75k, they can’t do HM? What are you trying to say?

A lot of players keep saying, “HA will be carried.” But to this day, not a single one has proven it. In every group, someone will always have the lowest DPS. That doesn’t mean they’re being carried, it just means others are doing slightly better DPS. Nothing more.

Once again, stop throwing around the word "carry, carry, carry" without proving anything. Post a video of a group doing HM with an HA player who knows what they’re doing, and then prove why that’s a carry!

• Hel Ra Citadel - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds.
• Aetherian Archive - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Sanctum Ophidia - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Maw of Lorkhaj - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Halls of Fabrication - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Asylum Sanctorium - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Cloudrest - First HM done with my HA in less then 15 minutes After I did it again on other builds (the last time was 2 days ago with pugs), I was playing as an Arcanist... one bar or two bars? They’ll never know unless they check the logs.
• Sunspire - First HM done with my HA After that, they only take me if I play with a class other than HA. Well, they don’t need me, and I don’t need them anymore.
• Kyne’s Aegis - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Rockgrove - First boss with my HA After that, they only take me if I play with a class other than HA. Well, they don’t need me, and I refuse to help them.
• Dreadsail Reef - i'm not good enought to join them i refuse to try with Arcanist first
• Sanity’s Edge - Missing last boss. And Ofc, did them with my HA After I did it again on other builds
  
  I can join any group to prove that I can do this again. Can you prove to me why HA can’t do it?
  

And this topic has gone completely off track with off-topic discussions.

Dragonnord

abkam wrote: »

if a 2bar player has bad rotation, an HA build will absolutely outperform them, 100% guaranteed.

Not true, since a huge amount of 1-bar HA players, I can even safely say the majority of them, only do HA attacks (and a few out-of-rotation skills from time to time) and their dps is super low.

If they can't manage a 2-bar rotation, they can't manage a 1-bar HA build rotation either, as in a 1-bar HA build (ie: Magicka Sorcerer) you have to maintain uptimes for, for example, Trap, Hurricane, Prey and both pets. If you remove Trap for a shield, then dps is even lower (and most HA players don't use trap, and they even use the healing pet, not the damage one.)

By only doing heavy attacks and maybe another skill from time to time, and not doing a rotation on a 1HA build, your dps will be very, very low.

Barovia87

Oakensoul is an accessibility item, period, and a lot of one-bar builds that use Oakensoul are heavy-attack builds. My boyfriend has an old hand injury that makes it very difficult (and painful) to consistently use a mouse or constantly barswap. So he uses a controller, and since unlocking Oakensoul recently he's been having a lot of fun on some heavy-attack focused Oakensoul builds that don't hurt his hands.

It already sucks than an accessibility item in the game is locked behind paid DLC, and further time-gated behind the Antiquities grind, and yet furthermore gated behind the Mythic fragment RNG. It's actually patently ridiculous.

The Devs have already repeatedly nerfed Oakensoul, and the community is often so so SO rude about it, too. Even when he's doing everything right in group content, my boyfriend still gets weird salty whispers from randos insulting him for using 1-bar/Oakensoul. His DPS is fabulous, the runs are smooth, etc, and still: salt.

I don't understand why people need to be toxic, elitist, jerks about 1-bar heavy attack builds. Disability and accessibility isn't a "skill issue". My boyfriend has been playing MMOs for literally 20 years. He's an intelligent, experienced, friendly, and knowledgeable player. A 1-bar build doesn't change any of those qualities.

Also: this is a video game. It simply isn't that serious. A complex rotation for fetchy numbers in a video game is a Stupid Human Trick™, not some sort of serious real life skill you should be deeply proud and protective of. The point of ESO is for everyone playing to have fun, and be included. 1 bar builds don't harm anyone or anything - they just allow more people to play. Again: accessibility.

1 bar heavy attack builds should be viable in all content. They shouldn't be OP and they shouldn't out-perform a similar two-bar build, no, but people should absolutely NOT be on the ESO forums insisting those builds are unplayable and unwelcome for entire huge swaths of the game.

My boyfriend should be able to put together an intelligent 1-bar build and participate with a reasonable group and thus clear any Dungeon, Trial, Veteran content, trifectas, etc in the game.

As for Crown gifting - all this hand wringing from ZoS is deeply disingenuous. They create INFINITE digital assets for the extremely cheap one-time cost of paying a programmer to design it once. There is no reasonable justification for punishing the entire ESO community, or for their vague non-list of non-exhaustive requirements. They have infinity Crowns. They aren't actually losing product when "bad actors" play stupid games. Every company occasionally deals with things like charge backs and identity theft - ZoS isn't special.

Keeping Crown Gifting extremely locked down sells more Crowns to honest people because they can't share with each other, and thus have to buy more individually. "Bad Actors" are just a fig leaf for ZoS naked greed.

abkam

Dragonnord wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

if a 2bar player has bad rotation, an HA build will absolutely outperform them, 100% guaranteed.

Not true, since a huge amount of 1-bar HA players, I can even safely say the majority of them, only do HA attacks (and a few out-of-rotation skills from time to time) and their dps is super low.

If they can't manage a 2-bar rotation, they can't manage a 1-bar HA build rotation either, as in a 1-bar HA build (ie: Magicka Sorcerer) you have to maintain uptimes for, for example, Trap, Hurricane, Prey and both pets. If you remove Trap for a shield, then dps is even lower (and most HA players don't use trap, and they even use the healing pet, not the damage one.)

By only doing heavy attacks and maybe another skill from time to time, and not doing a rotation on a 1HA build, your dps will be very, very low.

• If you compare one bad player with 1bar, then you have to use one bad player with 2bars. HA will win for sure.
• If you compare a mediocre 1bar player with a mediocre 2bar player, HA can win if they use other sets. ^^
• If you're talking about a good 1bar player vs. a good 2bar player, HA will perform better, 85% sure.
  I only don’t say 100% because that 2bar player could be almost perfect and do a good rotation. In that case, both would perform equally. The weight could shift to either player. But if the 2bar player fails the rotation more times than they should, then I bet 95%, HA will perform better, because the probability of failing the rotation is much lower with HA than with 2bars.
  
  Now, if you put a very good HA player in a group full of very good players with perfect rotation, the HA player will DPS 30-40% less for sure. And this is why "top players" say HA is bad. Then, all the others just follow them.
  

Orbital78

abkam wrote: »

If all DD's use HA for vDSR HM, who will be the one getting carried?? Or are you saying they simply can’t do it? We’re talking about HM here, and if it takes one or two hours, so be it. Again, we’re talking about HM. So, which HA player will be carried And don’t even start arguing that “2 hours is too much time” and all that “blablabla, because vDSR has been around for about four years, and even today, plenty of good players using 2bar still don’t have the full HM clear. Correct? I have the first two bosses from vLC, and I did them with HA. How many players using 2bar don’t even have one?

If you make a group with four Arcanists, one DK, one Templar, one Sorc, and whatever else, who exactly will be carried? The one with the lowest DPS? Just because someone did 80k DPS while the others did 85k? Or what exactly are we talking about here? Are you saying that only players with 100k DPS can complete vDSR HM? Or that if all DDs play with 2bar setups but can’t parse more than 75k, they can’t do HM? What are you trying to say?

A lot of players keep saying, “HA will be carried.” But to this day, not a single one has proven it. In every group, someone will always have the lowest DPS. That doesn’t mean they’re being carried, it just means others are doing slightly better DPS. Nothing more.

Once again, stop throwing around the word "carry, carry, carry" without proving anything. Post a video of a group doing HM with an HA player who knows what they’re doing, and then prove why that’s a carry!

• Hel Ra Citadel - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds.
• Aetherian Archive - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Sanctum Ophidia - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Maw of Lorkhaj - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Halls of Fabrication - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Asylum Sanctorium - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Cloudrest - First HM done with my HA in less then 15 minutes After I did it again on other builds (the last time was 2 days ago with pugs), I was playing as an Arcanist... one bar or two bars? They’ll never know unless they check the logs.
• Sunspire - First HM done with my HA After that, they only take me if I play with a class other than HA. Well, they don’t need me, and I don’t need them anymore.
• Kyne’s Aegis - First HM done with my HA After I did it again on other builds
• Rockgrove - First boss with my HA After that, they only take me if I play with a class other than HA. Well, they don’t need me, and I refuse to help them.
• Dreadsail Reef - i'm not good enought to join them i refuse to try with Arcanist first
• Sanity’s Edge - Missing last boss. And Ofc, did them with my HA After I did it again on other builds
  
  I can join any group to prove that I can do this again. Can you prove to me why HA can’t do it?
  

And this topic has gone completely off track with off-topic discussions.

I would like to see a video of a group of HA being able to clear VDSR or VRG HM's in under an hour (in its current form, not pre-nerf). By carry I mean it might be possible with one person not pulling their equal weight in dps. I am an HA enjoyer btw, and I have cleared all vet content with them except vCR+3 which I did as an arcanist. It isn't until vRG+ HM difficulty that there is an issue.

In this vAS GF, my HA build kind of did the carrying. Non-HM OFC. vAS is older content and has a lower dps threshold unless you're going for HM sweat strats maybe. This was obviously a less experienced pug group, and I'm pretty certain the arcanists were not fully optimized, as they used pillar of nirn and such. I think deadly/ansuuls or riptide is still the optimal unless azureblight for aoe.

abkam

Orbital78 wrote: »

I would like to see a video of a group of HA being able to clear VDSR or VRG HM's in under an hour (in its current form, not pre-nerf). By carry I mean it might be possible with one person not pulling their equal weight in dps. I am an HA enjoyer btw, and I have cleared all vet content with them except vCR+3 which I did as an arcanist. It isn't until vRG+ HM difficulty that there is an issue.

Give me one reason why it has to be under 1 hour or even 2... Why not 3 hours? Give me one valid reason, since we’re talking about Endgame HM only. And maybe you didn’t read what I said: "...vDSR has been around for about four years, and even today, plenty of good players using 2bar still don’t have the full HM clear..."

Why do you and so many other players focus on almost Trifecta times to do something they can complete with more time?!?
If a group completes vDSR HM in 59 minutes, it's considered a perfect run, but if they take 180 minutes, it's not!? What's the time your vCR+3 achivment shows?

My achievements don’t show any time. I remember when we completed vSS HM, we all went happy because we finished the HM, and no one cared about the times we wiped in the portals. We took almost 2 hours. So what???

I'll tell you more, and maybe you won't believe it... When I first did vSS (my first time ever, can't even remember how many years have passed), we took almost 8 hours. Yes, that’s my record for time spent in a single trial, lol! vSS... but, bro, it was so many years ago, and DPS was nothing like it is today. We were all noobs back then. But we did it! The feeling after that was incredible… Almost 8 hours, and so what?!? I would trade everything I have today for moments like that again. In fact, this post is all about those moments... but off-topic discussions are taking control.

Orbital78

abkam wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

I would like to see a video of a group of HA being able to clear VDSR or VRG HM's in under an hour (in its current form, not pre-nerf). By carry I mean it might be possible with one person not pulling their equal weight in dps. I am an HA enjoyer btw, and I have cleared all vet content with them except vCR+3 which I did as an arcanist. It isn't until vRG+ HM difficulty that there is an issue.

Give me one reason why it has to be under 1 hour or even 2... Why not 3 hours? Give me one valid reason, since we’re talking about Endgame HM only. And maybe you didn’t read what I said: "...vDSR has been around for about four years, and even today, plenty of good players using 2bar still don’t have the full HM clear..."

Why do you and so many other players focus on almost Trifecta times to do something they can complete with more time?!?
If a group completes vDSR HM in 59 minutes, it's considered a perfect run, but if they take 180 minutes, it's not!? What's the time your vCR+3 achivment shows?

My achievements don’t show any time. I remember when we completed vSS HM, we all went happy because we finished the HM, and no one cared about the times we wiped in the portals. We took almost 2 hours. So what???

For sanity, prog over an hour or two is just painful. Eventually a group should be able to clear it in the 30-40min time that it is supposed to be. I am one of the players that doesn't have the newer HM's done. I only just recently filled in for a guild core and got the Reef Guardian clear on HM (as arcanist) and some pulls on Telaria for the first time. A trial shouldn't take over a hour maybe a hour and a half if everyone knows what they are doing.

sans-culottes

Barovia87 wrote: »

Oakensoul is an accessibility item, period, and a lot of one-bar builds that use Oakensoul are heavy-attack builds. My boyfriend has an old hand injury that makes it very difficult (and painful) to consistently use a mouse or constantly barswap. So he uses a controller, and since unlocking Oakensoul recently he's been having a lot of fun on some heavy-attack focused Oakensoul builds that don't hurt his hands.

It already sucks than an accessibility item in the game is locked behind paid DLC, and further time-gated behind the Antiquities grind, and yet furthermore gated behind the Mythic fragment RNG. It's actually patently ridiculous.

The Devs have already repeatedly nerfed Oakensoul, and the community is often so so SO rude about it, too. Even when he's doing everything right in group content, my boyfriend still gets weird salty whispers from randos insulting him for using 1-bar/Oakensoul. His DPS is fabulous, the runs are smooth, etc, and still: salt.

I don't understand why people need to be toxic, elitist, jerks about 1-bar heavy attack builds. Disability and accessibility isn't a "skill issue". My boyfriend has been playing MMOs for literally 20 years. He's an intelligent, experienced, friendly, and knowledgeable player. A 1-bar build doesn't change any of those qualities.

Also: this is a video game. It simply isn't that serious. A complex rotation for fetchy numbers in a video game is a Stupid Human Trick™, not some sort of serious real life skill you should be deeply proud and protective of. The point of ESO is for everyone playing to have fun, and be included. 1 bar builds don't harm anyone or anything - they just allow more people to play. Again: accessibility.

1 bar heavy attack builds should be viable in all content. They shouldn't be OP and they shouldn't out-perform a similar two-bar build, no, but people should absolutely NOT be on the ESO forums insisting those builds are unplayable and unwelcome for entire huge swaths of the game.

My boyfriend should be able to put together an intelligent 1-bar build and participate with a reasonable group and thus clear any Dungeon, Trial, Veteran content, trifectas, etc in the game.

As for Crown gifting - all this hand wringing from ZoS is deeply disingenuous. They create INFINITE digital assets for the extremely cheap one-time cost of paying a programmer to design it once. There is no reasonable justification for punishing the entire ESO community, or for their vague non-list of non-exhaustive requirements. They have infinity Crowns. They aren't actually losing product when "bad actors" play stupid games. Every company occasionally deals with things like charge backs and identity theft - ZoS isn't special.

Keeping Crown Gifting extremely locked down sells more Crowns to honest people because they can't share with each other, and thus have to buy more individually. "Bad Actors" are just a fig leaf for ZoS naked greed.

This is a great post. I have a hand injury as well, and no other game has affected it to the extent that ESO has. As a console player, I unfortunately don’t have the option to use anything but a controller. Two-bar builds and the frenetic button mashing that’s required for, say, good LA weaving is downright awful. I say this is someone who’s played the Diablo series, just as an example, since the first game.

Nothing brings back that old pain quite like the movements this requires. Even the option to use a keyboard and mouse would be nice, although based on this post I suspect it wouldn’t really solve anything for me. Like the OP, I think it’s a shame that accessibility and player power are so hopelessly tied to gear. Baking in more options would make our characters feel more powerful, and it’d provide players with more agency.

Regarding Crown gifting: While I don’t have a horse in this race, the intentional ambiguity ZOS has cited has only served to further confuse and frustrate their customers. Given that gold sellers and bots are rampant, even on the console servers, it’s not clear that this has solved the problem in a meaningful way.

Instead, a more straightforward process for buying and selling Crowns would make way more sense. The current implementation breaks one of the fundamental rules of making good policies: Comprehensibility. An intentionally vague policy is not an effective policy.

abkam

Orbital78 wrote: »

For sanity, prog over an hour or two is just painful. Eventually a group should be able to clear it in the 30-40min time that it is supposed to be. I am one of the players that doesn't have the newer HM's done. I only just recently filled in for a guild core and got the Reef Guardian clear on HM (as arcanist) and some pulls on Telaria for the first time. A trial shouldn't take over a hour maybe a hour and a half if everyone knows what they are doing.

"For sanity, prog over an hour or two is just painful." And failing vKA with pugs isn’t? Failing vSS because no one knows what the tomb is isn’t painful? Explode curses in Bashei???
Do you play a healer? Then, you don’t think it’s painful when players freeze in vSE, each in a different corner of the map, and they all just run around? (Both 1-bar and 2-bar players do this). Isn’t that painful for you?

Pain is only pain when you can’t complete one HM in less than 60 minutes?

I think I understand you, but if I do, then we both have completely different views on what a game should be."

sans-culottes

abkam wrote: »

I thought I was done with this topic, but it seems I need to say a bit more.

1. All I said was that I love HA builds. It's my main character, the most fun for me, and I know I can play it better than many Arcanists out there.
2. Why do people assume I only play with HA? Just because I like it more than other classes? oO What the hell is wrong with you!?
3. I have one Arcanist (definitely good DPS), one Templar (solid DPS), one Dragon Knight (my best DPS, no question), one NecroEC (RIP), and two healers—Warden RoJo and Nightblade SPC/Pillagers. They all use two bars, and I can play any of them! But I love HA. And the fact that I even have to explain this in detail only proves my point—players aren’t just toxic about HA; they lose their minds every time they see one.

All I did was create a topic saying I love HA. And because I can't handle the toxicity anymore, I bought another account, and about the fact that I can't send a gift from one account to another!

For the love of God, not everyone here represents the toxicity I see in-game, but some of you sure are proving my point!

For the love of good... this madness has to end.

And I'll say this again! So many of you claim that HA can't handle HM… Prove it to me, please. To this day, not a single player has proven to me that "HA can't do HM." (And no, I'm not talking about Trifectas.) Not now, not ever! Stop this madness.

The truth is simple—HA is damn good. And the real reason so many players hate it? Because their performance is worse than HA, and they can't stand it.

I’m confused. Your OP explicitly mentioned Crown gifting. It also mentioned these other topics. To your question about Crowns, maybe the best solution would be for ZOS to clarify their rules and/or build in some sort of mechanism specifically for trading these. As currently implemented, this system is very opaque.

Ezhh

abkam wrote: »

Give me one reason why it has to be under 1 hour or even 2... Why not 3 hours? Give me one valid reason, since we’re talking about Endgame HM only.

Not everyone has more than 2+, never mind 3+, hours to prog in one sitting.

Expecting a clear to be possible in under 2 hours isn't unrealistic at all. It's the absolute max I can handle raid leading for without burning out. I love leading my group, but more time than that in one night is simply too much.

I'm also interested in helping the players in my group to progress and I love to see them move on to do more. I can't do that with someone on a HA build. At worst they'd hold us back. At best there's simply nothing there for me to engage with in that way because I have zero interest in learning about how to optimize a build I personally find too boring to play.

And if I'm giving my time to lead and maintain a group, I don't think it's toxic for me to make the decisions about what that group is for, or for me to set some expectations for the players within it. I'm happy that HA builds exist for those who enjoy them, but when I lead, they are not something I want to work with.

It's always possible for those who enjoy HA builds to make their groups for their favored playstyle, just as I can make mine.

Soarora

abkam wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

For sanity, prog over an hour or two is just painful. Eventually a group should be able to clear it in the 30-40min time that it is supposed to be. I am one of the players that doesn't have the newer HM's done. I only just recently filled in for a guild core and got the Reef Guardian clear on HM (as arcanist) and some pulls on Telaria for the first time. A trial shouldn't take over a hour maybe a hour and a half if everyone knows what they are doing.

"For sanity, prog over an hour or two is just painful." And failing vKA with pugs isn’t? Failing vSS because no one knows what the tomb is isn’t painful? Explode curses in Bashei???
Do you play a healer? Then, you don’t think it’s painful when players freeze in vSE, each in a different corner of the map, and they all just run around? (Both 1-bar and 2-bar players do this). Isn’t that painful for you?

Pain is only pain when you can’t complete one HM in less than 60 minutes?

I think I understand you, but if I do, then we both have completely different views on what a game should be."

Humans generally perform at peak performance for 2 hours before needing a break. I had a class once that was over 2 hours and we took a break halfway through for this reason. Same reason guild runs are almost always 2 hour time blocks. A prog for 2 hours is fine, I too don’t understand the argument that it’s not, but after 2 hours people quickly get worse and it’s time to call it and try again another time. Especially with some of the newer HMs requiring a lot of brainpower.

abkam

Soarora wrote: »

Humans generally perform at peak performance for 2 hours before needing a break. I had a class once that was over 2 hours and we took a break halfway through for this reason. Same reason guild runs are almost always 2 hour time blocks. A prog for 2 hours is fine, I too don’t understand the argument that it’s not, but after 2 hours people quickly get worse and it’s time to call it and try again another time. Especially with some of the newer HMs requiring a lot of brainpower.

It's all fine with two hours of progression, more or less. It all depends on the team. I have nothing against that or anything to say about it.

But regarding the idea that "some of the newer HMs require a lot of brainpower," I have to disagree, or at least clarify my thoughts;

Take vDSR, for example, the first boss. Players don’t need brainpower; they just need to know their roles: one takes the dome, another interrupts. Where’s the brainpower? In making sure they don’t touch the blade with the dome?

vLC HM, first boss, debuff trash and kill them. What more do you need? Players don’t need brainpower for that… just follow basic mechanics: debuff, healer taunts and stacks, and DDs kill the trash.
vLC HM, switch your mirror when needed. What more do you need? This isn’t brainpower. it’s just mechanics they already learn in Veteran!

Players need brainpower and memory to handle all mechanics while maintaining a perfect rotation just to be accepted into groups. But where’s the brainpower in rolling or moving out of the way of the Wamasu in vLC? It’s about knowing the mechanics, roll, move, done.

And I’m absolutely sure, 100% sure, that both 1bar and 2bar players can do this, as long as they know what to do.

Brainpower is needed when you're pushing for trifectas. I can agree with that. But no one here is talking about trifectas! So…?

Dragonnord

abkam wrote: »

[*] 1 - If you compare one bad player with 1bar, then you have to use one bad player with 2bars. HA will win for sure.
[*] 2 - If you compare a mediocre 1bar player with a mediocre 2bar player, HA can win if they use other sets. ^^
[*] 3 - If you're talking about a good 1bar player vs. a good 2bar player, HA will perform better, 85% sure.
I only don’t say 100% because that 2bar player could be almost perfect and do a good rotation. In that case, both would perform equally. The weight could shift to either player. But if the 2bar player fails the rotation more times than they should, then I bet 95%, HA will perform better, because the probability of failing the rotation is much lower with HA than with 2bars.

Now, if you put a very good HA player in a group full of very good players with perfect rotation, the HA player will DPS 30-40% less for sure. And this is why "top players" say HA is bad. Then, all the others just follow them.

1 - No, HA bad player will have lower dps.
2 - Still no, HA mediocre player will have less dps.
3 - Again, no, HA good player will still have less dps.

1-bar HA build in a bad, mediocre or good player, without a proper rotation, has super low dps.

90% of 1-bar HA players that go to dungeons and trials don't have a proper rotation, they just spam heavy attacks and press another skill randomly during the fight (zero rotation, zero uptimes).

sarahthes

abkam wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

I would like to see a video of a group of HA being able to clear VDSR or VRG HM's in under an hour (in its current form, not pre-nerf). By carry I mean it might be possible with one person not pulling their equal weight in dps. I am an HA enjoyer btw, and I have cleared all vet content with them except vCR+3 which I did as an arcanist. It isn't until vRG+ HM difficulty that there is an issue.

Give me one reason why it has to be under 1 hour or even 2... Why not 3 hours? Give me one valid reason, since we’re talking about Endgame HM only. And maybe you didn’t read what I said: "...vDSR has been around for about four years, and even today, plenty of good players using 2bar still don’t have the full HM clear..."

Why do you and so many other players focus on almost Trifecta times to do something they can complete with more time?!?
If a group completes vDSR HM in 59 minutes, it's considered a perfect run, but if they take 180 minutes, it's not!? What's the time your vCR+3 achivment shows?

My achievements don’t show any time. I remember when we completed vSS HM, we all went happy because we finished the HM, and no one cared about the times we wiped in the portals. We took almost 2 hours. So what???

I'll tell you more, and maybe you won't believe it... When I first did vSS (my first time ever, can't even remember how many years have passed), we took almost 8 hours. Yes, that’s my record for time spent in a single trial, lol! vSS... but, bro, it was so many years ago, and DPS was nothing like it is today. We were all noobs back then. But we did it! The feeling after that was incredible… Almost 8 hours, and so what?!? I would trade everything I have today for moments like that again. In fact, this post is all about those moments... but off-topic discussions are taking control.

The lower the DPS, the slower the clears, *the harder the content gets*. And it gets disproportionately harder for your supports than it is for the DDs. Good, experienced supports really don't want to have to deal with that. And less experienced supports are going to struggle even more.

Three bridge Taleria HM with no matron skips sounds miserable... not to mention winter storm while slowed due to yellow bubble, not having ultimates to do more damage, and having a permanent heal debuff.

Ansuul HM is actually a hard DPS check. 20-0% must be completed within about 60 seconds or you wind up with nobody able to taunt the boss due to the banish mechanic.

Rockgrove HM can be done but slow Bahsei is so much worse than fast Bahsei. The portals get significantly harder and the cone moves faster the longer it goes. Slow Oax means you either get stuck in a die with poison/rez cycle or you have healers holding poison forever. And then there's Xalvakka, which has a hard DPS check.

Lucent HM... Boss 1 both bosses need to die within 5 seconds of each other. Cavot and Orphic don't have any issues, but the knot run is absolutely miserable when slow, not to mention that the crystals have to die within 5 seconds of each other whenever there's a room with more than 1 (HM only mechanic). Crystal atros spawn every 45s and each subsequent one does more damage than the previous one (HM only mechanic) to the point that once everyone has held the knot once (8 minute clear, or fairly close to world record pace) their light attacks hit for around 60K. Their health also goes up, meaning they are functionally a soft DPS check as each one is harder to kill than the one before it.

abkam

Dragonnord wrote: »

1 - No, HA bad player will have lower dps.
2 - Still no, HA mediocre player will have less dps.
3 - Again, no, HA good player will still have less dps.

1-bar HA build in a bad, mediocre or good player, without a proper rotation, has super low dps.

90% of 1-bar HA players that go to dungeons and trials don't have a proper rotation, they just spam heavy attacks and press another skill randomly during the fight (zero rotation, zero uptimes).

Now imagine them using 2 bars, how amazing would that be! If they need time to learn a 1bar rotation and maintain 1bar uptimes, imagine how much time they’ll need to master the perfect rotation and uptimes across both bars in the right skill order. Wouldn’t that be even harder?

And the solution is to exclude them just to force them to learn 2 bars?! Makes sense… right? Let’s exclude them and take only 2bar players, who, ironically, perform far worse than 1bar players. Genius move!

DestroyerPewnack

abkam wrote: »

I have to share this with all of you.

So, I love the HA build, for so many reasons. But right now, I won’t go into detail. I just want to say: I really love HA!

However, as you all know, playing with this build isn’t easy. I mean, of course, the build itself is simple, but being accepted in groups? That’s a whole different story. It’s insanely hard to get into HM content and endgame trials. And since I’ve already completed all my quests, and almost owning all items, there’s not much left for me to do in-game to keep myself entertained.

So, I did something crazy, I bought another account! Yeah, why not? Time to start all over again.
After leveling up my new character, going through the story, and finally reaching CP160, I started running normal trials. And you won’t believe what I discovered…
Players in normal trials are AMAZING. Seriously. it’s like stepping into a completely different world. Players are friendly, helpful, and just there to have fun. No one cares if you have one bar, two bars, or even if you go in naked. They just want to play the game. And it’s incredible!

As a veteran player, all I’ve ever seen in vet trials is toxicity. Players get kicked for having low CP. Others are bullied for their low DPS. And honestly? We, the veteran players, are the ones killing the game. Yep, I finally understand why so many players quit. Veteran content is just way too toxic.

On my main account, I have a long list of ignored players, either because I was toxic, they were toxic, or we just ended up ignoring each other. But guess what? In normal trials, some of those same players and I are friends! Why? Because we’re just playing the game for fun. It’s a completely different experience.

Now, here’s where things get even more frustrating.

On my main account, I have 8k+ Crowns. My wife has 4k+. And yet, we can’t gift them. As you might understand, I can’t play without my merchant, banker, and other essential NPCs. So, I reached out to support and asked them to remove Crowns from my account and use them to gift a Merchant, just a Merchant, to my other account. Support said no. -.-

So now, I have to return to my main account because I literally can’t play the game without NPCs and ESO Plus, I understand that many players can handle this, traveling to a city, selling, returning, and repeating the process. But, I can't (Consequence of years of bad habits in ESO). That means going back to the toxic environment, back to dealing with ignored players, and back to the same frustrating experience.

And you know what? This is 100% ZoS’s fault. Why? Because certain addons have made players more obsessed with DPS than actually playing the damn game. Only normal players and newer players truly enjoy the game for what it is. And for a brief moment, I got to experience that joy too.

But not anymore. Not after this;

GG ZoS, Good Game!!!

Weren't you the person commenting on my off-meta builds thread, trying to convince me to ONLY use meta builds? Kind of funny finding out you play HA builds! Haha! 😂

sarahthes

abkam wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

1 - No, HA bad player will have lower dps.
2 - Still no, HA mediocre player will have less dps.
3 - Again, no, HA good player will still have less dps.

1-bar HA build in a bad, mediocre or good player, without a proper rotation, has super low dps.

90% of 1-bar HA players that go to dungeons and trials don't have a proper rotation, they just spam heavy attacks and press another skill randomly during the fight (zero rotation, zero uptimes).

Now imagine them using 2 bars, how amazing would that be! If they need time to learn a 1bar rotation and maintain 1bar uptimes, imagine how much time they’ll need to master the perfect rotation and uptimes across both bars in the right skill order. Wouldn’t that be even harder?

And the solution is to exclude them just to force them to learn 2 bars?! Makes sense… right? Let’s exclude them and take only 2bar players, who, ironically, perform far worse than 1bar players. Genius move!

It's just practice. I'm twice the age of most of the people I raid with and I perform on par with them.

abkam

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Weren't you the person commenting on my off-meta builds thread, trying to convince me to ONLY use meta builds? Kind of funny finding out you play HA builds! Haha! 😂

I don’t know… maybe! What was the topic about? Trifectas? World record times? What was the actual discussion? Post the link, please.
And of course, players should switch to 2 bars as soon as they can and start learning rotations, mechanics, and how to optimize their DPS. They should absolutely use 2 bars and improve beyond 1bar performance.
But if they want to relax during this process, no one should be gatekeeping them from using 1bar builds.
At the very least, they’ll understand what uptimes are, which will help them maintain those uptimes on a 1bar build. Later, transitioning to 2bar uptimes will be much easier.
And guess what? During this whole process, they’ll also have the chance to learn mechanics inside the trial. How about that, huh?


Like I said before, I can play with 2 bars. I have 2bar builds, and my best DPS comes from 2bar setup. But none of that changes the fact that I love HA builds, and how amazing it would be for the game if people stopped kicking them out of Veteran and even HM content.

Orbital78

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

I have to share this with all of you.

So, I love the HA build, for so many reasons. But right now, I won’t go into detail. I just want to say: I really love HA!

However, as you all know, playing with this build isn’t easy. I mean, of course, the build itself is simple, but being accepted in groups? That’s a whole different story. It’s insanely hard to get into HM content and endgame trials. And since I’ve already completed all my quests, and almost owning all items, there’s not much left for me to do in-game to keep myself entertained.

So, I did something crazy, I bought another account! Yeah, why not? Time to start all over again.
After leveling up my new character, going through the story, and finally reaching CP160, I started running normal trials. And you won’t believe what I discovered…
Players in normal trials are AMAZING. Seriously. it’s like stepping into a completely different world. Players are friendly, helpful, and just there to have fun. No one cares if you have one bar, two bars, or even if you go in naked. They just want to play the game. And it’s incredible!

As a veteran player, all I’ve ever seen in vet trials is toxicity. Players get kicked for having low CP. Others are bullied for their low DPS. And honestly? We, the veteran players, are the ones killing the game. Yep, I finally understand why so many players quit. Veteran content is just way too toxic.

On my main account, I have a long list of ignored players, either because I was toxic, they were toxic, or we just ended up ignoring each other. But guess what? In normal trials, some of those same players and I are friends! Why? Because we’re just playing the game for fun. It’s a completely different experience.

Now, here’s where things get even more frustrating.

On my main account, I have 8k+ Crowns. My wife has 4k+. And yet, we can’t gift them. As you might understand, I can’t play without my merchant, banker, and other essential NPCs. So, I reached out to support and asked them to remove Crowns from my account and use them to gift a Merchant, just a Merchant, to my other account. Support said no. -.-

So now, I have to return to my main account because I literally can’t play the game without NPCs and ESO Plus, I understand that many players can handle this, traveling to a city, selling, returning, and repeating the process. But, I can't (Consequence of years of bad habits in ESO). That means going back to the toxic environment, back to dealing with ignored players, and back to the same frustrating experience.

And you know what? This is 100% ZoS’s fault. Why? Because certain addons have made players more obsessed with DPS than actually playing the damn game. Only normal players and newer players truly enjoy the game for what it is. And for a brief moment, I got to experience that joy too.

But not anymore. Not after this;

GG ZoS, Good Game!!!

Weren't you the person commenting on my off-meta builds thread, trying to convince me to ONLY use meta builds? Kind of funny finding out you play HA builds! Haha! 😂

tbh sergeant's mail is kind of meta for many. Though I would like to see that changed, and maybe have empower added to banner for two bar HA options/qol.

Soarora

abkam wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Humans generally perform at peak performance for 2 hours before needing a break. I had a class once that was over 2 hours and we took a break halfway through for this reason. Same reason guild runs are almost always 2 hour time blocks. A prog for 2 hours is fine, I too don’t understand the argument that it’s not, but after 2 hours people quickly get worse and it’s time to call it and try again another time. Especially with some of the newer HMs requiring a lot of brainpower.

It's all fine with two hours of progression, more or less. It all depends on the team. I have nothing against that or anything to say about it.

But regarding the idea that "some of the newer HMs require a lot of brainpower," I have to disagree, or at least clarify my thoughts;

Take vDSR, for example, the first boss. Players don’t need brainpower; they just need to know their roles: one takes the dome, another interrupts. Where’s the brainpower? In making sure they don’t touch the blade with the dome?

vLC HM, first boss, debuff trash and kill them. What more do you need? Players don’t need brainpower for that… just follow basic mechanics: debuff, healer taunts and stacks, and DDs kill the trash.
vLC HM, switch your mirror when needed. What more do you need? This isn’t brainpower. it’s just mechanics they already learn in Veteran!

Players need brainpower and memory to handle all mechanics while maintaining a perfect rotation just to be accepted into groups. But where’s the brainpower in rolling or moving out of the way of the Wamasu in vLC? It’s about knowing the mechanics, roll, move, done.

And I’m absolutely sure, 100% sure, that both 1bar and 2bar players can do this, as long as they know what to do.

Brainpower is needed when you're pushing for trifectas. I can agree with that. But no one here is talking about trifectas! So…?

You’re talking about DPS when there’s 2 tanks and 2 healers that also need to stay in the group for as long as it’s running, let alone the lead having to juggle the group and mechanics. SE HM first boss as MT is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tanked, because you take a lot of damage, get little healing (can’t heal yourself either), need to move around a lot to the right places at the right time, manage your sustain on your own, etc. Bahsei is also hard on the tanks (at least the OT), but I haven’t tanked Bahsei on HM before. I have only DPS’d DSR HM, but the 2nd and 3rd bosses sound like they’re hard on the MT.
Maybe it’s just me, but my brain gets tired after tanking for too long in some content due to brainpower usage and as a result, my performance drops.

JiubLeRepenti

Regarding the original post, here's how I see things:

First of all, concerning ESO, and after playing several other successful MMOs, I think ESO has by far one of the chillest communities. I’ve spent 10,000 hours in the game, and probably more than half of that has been spent in instances (dungeons, trials, etc.), and I think I’ve only been flamed a few times at my very beginning when I was playing like an idiot without following mechs (that was 100% deserved btw).

Second, regarding difficulty, it's not surprising to me that people are nicer in normal trials. It's because you know that, in 99 % of cases, you will complete them. This is not always the case with some veteran trials. I recently left a group during the final boss of vDSR because a DPS was keeping bombing the entire group by not getting into the water when he had to.

Third, regarding the DPS, I obviously have no opinion on you enjoying playing with HA builds. They're very effective for the minimal effort they require, and while I personally find them boring af to play, I understand that many people enjoy them.

Fourth, I don’t see any veteran trials that couldn’t be completed even with 8 HA DPS, each dealing 90-100k DPS on mobs and bosses. I think many raid leaders have a serious bias or lack of understanding of how strong HA builds are. Some of them are just... well, elitists who think you can't complete a trial with less than 120k per DPS.

If someone flames you for playing an HA build, there are three possible reasons:

1. he doesn’t understand how an HA build works.
2. he's an elitist jerk who thinks you don’t deserve to be in the group with such an easy-to-play build.
3. hejust wants to farm and go very quickly with very, VERY strong DPS that bring 120k+ per head.

In conclusion:

• Do I think a DPS should be kicked from an instance because of his HA build? Certainly not.
• Am I surprised that people are more likely to argue in veteran trials rather than in normal trials? Absolutely not.
• Do I think ESO is being killed by toxicity? Gosh no, it's My Little Poney Simulator compared to other MMOs I did.

abkam

Soarora wrote: »

You’re talking about DPS when there’s 2 tanks and 2 healers that also need to stay in the group for as long as it’s running, let alone the lead having to juggle the group and mechanics. SE HM first boss as MT is hard. It’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever tanked, because you take a lot of damage, get little healing (can’t heal yourself either), need to move around a lot to the right places at the right time, manage your sustain on your own, etc. Bahsei is also hard on the tanks (at least the OT), but I haven’t tanked Bahsei on HM before. I have only DPS’d DSR HM, but the 2nd and 3rd bosses sound like they’re hard on the MT.
Maybe it’s just me, but my brain gets tired after tanking for too long in some content due to brainpower usage and as a result, my performance drops.

Okay, help me understand this…

Why does spending two hours in a group trying to clear an HM boss somehow require more brainpower when the group is full of 2bar players, compared to a group that’s a mix of 1bar and 2bar players?
What’s the actual difference between spending two hours inside a trial with a mix of both?
Logs will show a two-hour session, with more or less success, with more or fewer 2bar players. But the time spent will always be two hours.
And if it’s a progression group? I’m 100% sure that as long as the team stays the same, sooner or later, the entire group will clear any HM in under two hours.

A truly skilled group, a perfect group, can complete any trifecta trial in under 30 minutes. So if we’re talking about a two-hour session, we’re clearly talking about average, normal players, right?

So what’s the difference?