Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?

Erickson9610 · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-out proximity voice chat (On by default)

From my perspective, if it's optional, then there's no reason players would object. Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat — nothing really changes for those people who don't want to hear other people's voices, especially if voice chat is opt-in to hear like it is with other voice communication apps.

So far, the only legitimate concerns I've heard regard wasting developer resources and network usage. Those are the reasons I'd imagine a voice chat feature on PC would likely not be implemented.

sans-culottes · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It would be more accurate if the poll was for PC players only because we are the ones that would be affected by it.

Yes, I specifically stated "ESO on PC" several times.

Edit: I misunderstood the context. You mean that the poll should only be able to be voted on by PC players, not that the poll somehow wasn't targeted at PC players.

Yes the edit is what I meant. Not that I want to exclude console players from commenting, but for the actual voting I feel it would give a better idea of what PC players want if only they voted on it.

Given that we have this feature and can have meaningful input on this re: PC, I’m going to have to disagree. The question wasn’t “do exclusively PC players want feature x?” Instead, it was asking if this should be a feature on PC or not. Given that it’s already a console feature, our input is if anything going to be quite informative.

That is why I said console players should be able to comment. But ultimately it will only affect PC players. I don't want my gaming experience determined by others that won't be the least bit affected if PC has a voice chat or not.

That doesn’t make sense, though. No one voting on this is determining what features you do or don’t have. The question is about whether or not people think it should. Since console players have access to this feature already, and since many of us also have PCs, what you’re asking for is a different question—and series of participants.

Given that I can expound on the positives and negatives—and frankly, with much more authority than someone for whom it’s purely hypothetical—I’d think persons such as myself would, if anything, provide more objective reactions and comparisons. Why? Because of the real, existing use of the in-game feature AND Discord, which is still prominent on consoles. Since I also have a clear perspective of the PC side, my ability to contrast the two and offer feedback on whether or not this is a good idea shouldn’t be relegated to some second-tier status.

SilverBride · March 5

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Console and PC have very different experiences and expectations when playing. Our economies are a good example of how very different the game is for the two platforms.

I don't think it's fair for others to have a say in what happens on PC.

sans-culottes · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

Console and PC have very different experiences and expectations when playing. Our economies are a good example of how very different the game is for the two platforms.

I don't think it's fair for others to have a say in what happens on PC.

We don’t, though. We aren’t the devs, unless someone in this conversation is also a ZOS employee. This is player feedback, and player feedback isn’t the driver of game development. Well, unless you’re Larian. ❤️

tomofhyrule · March 5

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat

But again: would they really? Or would the groups that currently use Discord just still use Discord even if an in-game voice existed? Particularly since even the voice chat on consoles as it is now doesn’t allow for a “look in the channel to see a diagram of where to stand” or something similar that many groups use to get positioning.

Again, how many housing enthusiasts said “oh boy, now that ESO has Home Tours, I don’t need EHT anymore so I can just get rid of that addon!” They use EHT for more than just posting and visiting others’ houses, and similarly groups and guilds use Discord for more than just voice chat.

There is no guarantee that PC players would end up switching en masse if such a feature were to exist. Maybe if this had released with ESO ten years ago, but Discord is well established in the ESO PC world at this point. We’d likely still have groups or guilds demand Discord regardless, and then the forum complaints would be “why aren’t people using the in-game vc?”

sans-culottes · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat

But again: would they really? Or would the groups that currently use Discord just still use Discord even if an in-game voice existed? Particularly since even the voice chat on consoles as it is now doesn’t allow for a “look in the channel to see a diagram of where to stand” or something similar that many groups use to get positioning.

Again, how many housing enthusiasts said “oh boy, now that ESO has Home Tours, I don’t need EHT anymore so I can just get rid of that addon!” They use EHT for more than just posting and visiting others’ houses, and similarly groups and guilds use Discord for more than just voice chat.

There is no guarantee that PC players would end up switching en masse if such a feature were to exist. Maybe if this had released with ESO ten years ago, but Discord is well established in the ESO PC world at this point. We’d likely still have groups or guilds demand Discord regardless, and then the forum complaints would be “why aren’t people using the in-game vc?”

On the PSN side, they still just ask you to use Discord. Some groups will use the in-game chat, but they’ll usually also maintain an active Discord server, etc. I wouldn’t expect this to change. The reasons you, I think, cited earlier about being able to do more with that tool are the main reasons. Well, and familiarity.

JemadarofCaerSalis · March 5

Other (please describe your thoughts)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat

But again: would they really? Or would the groups that currently use Discord just still use Discord even if an in-game voice existed? Particularly since even the voice chat on consoles as it is now doesn’t allow for a “look in the channel to see a diagram of where to stand” or something similar that many groups use to get positioning.

Again, how many housing enthusiasts said “oh boy, now that ESO has Home Tours, I don’t need EHT anymore so I can just get rid of that addon!” They use EHT for more than just posting and visiting others’ houses, and similarly groups and guilds use Discord for more than just voice chat.

There is no guarantee that PC players would end up switching en masse if such a feature were to exist. Maybe if this had released with ESO ten years ago, but Discord is well established in the ESO PC world at this point. We’d likely still have groups or guilds demand Discord regardless, and then the forum complaints would be “why aren’t people using the in-game vc?”

My fear wouldn't be so much the same people who are using discord going 'just use in game voice!' but rather additional guilds/groups/people would go 'well now that we have an in-game chat, there is no reason to NOT use it' and it would become a requirement for additional guilds and/or content on top of the number of guilds/groups that require discord/voice chat.

spartaxoxo · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat

But again: would they really? Or would the groups that currently use Discord just still use Discord even if an in-game voice existed? Particularly since even the voice chat on consoles as it is now doesn’t allow for a “look in the channel to see a diagram of where to stand” or something similar that many groups use to get positioning.

Again, how many housing enthusiasts said “oh boy, now that ESO has Home Tours, I don’t need EHT anymore so I can just get rid of that addon!” They use EHT for more than just posting and visiting others’ houses, and similarly groups and guilds use Discord for more than just voice chat.

There is no guarantee that PC players would end up switching en masse if such a feature were to exist. Maybe if this had released with ESO ten years ago, but Discord is well established in the ESO PC world at this point. We’d likely still have groups or guilds demand Discord regardless, and then the forum complaints would be “why aren’t people using the in-game vc?”

My fear wouldn't be so much the same people who are using discord going 'just use in game voice!' but rather additional guilds/groups/people would go 'well now that we have an in-game chat, there is no reason to NOT use it' and it would become a requirement for additional guilds and/or content on top of the number of guilds/groups that require discord/voice chat.

I don't think that would be likely to happen because it's very bare bones. Mostly likely it would just be used by pick-up groups to do call outs in trials.

Guilds on here use a mix of vc, discord, and PSN chat because VC is just very bare bones. And most people also type anything important in guild chat as well.

VC is mostly for socializing with randos and less rigorous guild events optionally just to make things a bit easier on the organizer to not have to hunt everyone down since PSN requires manually inviting them. I guess I could see a few guilds requiring it because their lead is tired of typing everything. But I don't see a widespread culture shift happening in PC for a very basic barebones feature that is liable to randomly stop working.

VoxAdActa · March 5

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I'm really annoyed by how often "optional!" is added to literally every new feature request as a way to preempt valid criticism of the basic idea. Especially when the advocates explicitly ignore all of the social and cultural knock-on effects that would make such an idea technically optional but de facto required in some (or many) circumstances.

With that said, even accounting for "you're not allowed to use any criticisms that the magic word 'optional' would cover," still no. It's a pointless feature that would be a complete waste of dev time and system resources. People who want voice chat have been using Discord (et al.) for almost a decade now.

The only practical use this might have is in PUGs, where a rational person least wants to hear other people (especially since they can just say anything and reporting it turns into 'he-said-she-said'). Anyone doing guild runs or premades who wants VC already has a feature-rich VC platform they have extensive experience with.

The rest of the appeal is the dubious aesthetic of listening to randos talk to their cats, eat their doritos, yell at their spouses, and blast music of highly variable creative merit at everyone doing writs. It feels like this is a suggestion that would primarily appeal to the type of people who cheer at and heckle the on-screen characters in movie theatres, and those that enjoy listening to such.

sans-culottes · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I'm really annoyed by how often "optional!" is added to literally every new feature request as a way to preempt valid criticism of the basic idea. Especially when the advocates explicitly ignore all of the social and cultural knock-on effects that would make such an idea technically optional but de facto required in some (or many) circumstances.

With that said, even accounting for "you're not allowed to use any criticisms that the magic word 'optional' would cover," still no. It's a pointless feature that would be a complete waste of dev time and system resources. People who want voice chat have been using Discord (et al.) for almost a decade now.

The only practical use this might have is in PUGs, where a rational person least wants to hear other people (especially since they can just say anything and reporting it turns into 'he-said-she-said'). Anyone doing guild runs or premades who wants VC already has a feature-rich VC platform they have extensive experience with.

The rest of the appeal is the dubious aesthetic of listening to randos talk to their cats, eat their doritos, yell at their spouses, and blast music of highly variable creative merit at everyone doing writs. It feels like this is a suggestion that would primarily appeal to the type of people who cheer at and heckle the on-screen characters in movie theatres, and those that enjoy listening to such.

To be fair, that’s pretty much all voice chat—well, aside from ones that are actually structured. 😬

Since I have no issues with Discord, it’s more a matter of “what an odd thing to offer one group of players but not another.” It’s also worth repeating that this hasn’t replaced, say, Discord in most cases on, e.g., PSN. I leave it off, but I imagine some folks derive some sort of joy from it. Who am I to judge? But that’s also what keeps it set to “off.”

To address your concern about “optional,” it’s literally “optional” on the PSN, for instance. This is something that can be turned on and off at will. It’d be a nightmare if you were forced to use this constantly.

PS. When Blizzard’s late entry into built-in voice chat was announced in WoW, people raised the same concerns—in that case, about mostly Ventrilo. That feared “culture shift” never happened, nor did people suddenly require you to use the in-game tool. If anything, then I mostly remember people ignoring it outright.

DenverRalphy · March 5

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Dunno why I clicked No. I meant to click Other. Shame there's no way to change your vote.

Anyhoo, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be included. However I think it's a feature most people would rather do without. I can't stand all the drive-by chip crunchers, snot snorkers (that one makes me wanna gag), screaming children, etc..

said no one ever · March 5

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

If you force me to use a stupid voice chat i will force tyou to listen to sermons from Dr Conrad Vine on youtube while i play the game. Just FYI i will play him louder than anything you are saying so i don't have to hear it.

sans-culottes · March 5

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

said no one ever wrote: »

If you force me to use a stupid voice chat i will force tyou to listen to sermons from Dr Conrad Vine on youtube while i play the game. Just FYI i will play him louder than anything you are saying so i don't have to hear it.

Even if they brought this to PCs—realistically, this is unlikely—there’s zero chance you’d be forced to use it all the time. There are, for instance, different settings you can enable on PSN.

Amottica · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

rootkitronin wrote: »

A lot of people here don't seem to understand what the word optional means or have failed to read the subject line of the thread.

Hmm, I think they understand the poll's opt-in and opt-out parts. It is very clear. It is also clear that many of us understood the options very well, as we have noted reasons for voting against it. These include responses such as the game has limited resources and a long list of items that are so much more important than a feature such as this.

Tandor · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I have no interest in voice chat, and Discord is already being used by those who do want it in ESO. I think there would be a lot of better things for ZOS to target their development resources on.

On the question of it being optional, I think past experience in ESO has been such that a lot of players no longer have any confidence in supporting changes they personally don't want but which are being touted as optional, because the evidence from things like achievements is that when such changes are introduced they are imposed on all players and not made optional at all.

Amottica · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Erickson9610 wrote: »

From my perspective, if it's optional, then there's no reason players would object. Instead of groups demanding you use Discord, groups would demand you use the in-game voice chat — nothing really changes for those people who don't want to hear other people's voices, especially if voice chat is opt-in to hear like it is with other voice communication apps.

So far, the only legitimate concerns I've heard regard wasting developer resources and network usage. Those are the reasons I'd imagine a voice chat feature on PC would likely not be implemented.

Not sure what this is based on since Discord offers so much more than VoIP, plus administrative tools and organization that makes it far superior to any voice and text chat any MMO has had. Most groups and guilds that are half serious about what they do will require Discord for the much more far-reaching benefits it provides.

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Tandor wrote: »

I have no interest in voice chat, and Discord is already being used by those who do want it in ESO. I think there would be a lot of better things for ZOS to target their development resources on.

On the question of it being optional, I think past experience in ESO has been such that a lot of players no longer have any confidence in supporting changes they personally don't want but which are being touted as optional, because the evidence from things like achievements is that when such changes are introduced they are imposed on all players and not made optional at all.

Good news! The real, existing implementation of this on consoles is literally optional. So that fear can be safely consigned to the ash heap of history.

Dragonnord · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

No, please no, even if optional.

Hearing all kind of stupid things, players drunk, drugged, sometimes speaking languages you don't understand, putting all type of music with low quality sound because of low quality mics... ... ...

I know, I can choose not to enable it. Still, PC doesn't need that.

SilverBride · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

The bottom line is that most PC players are voting that they do not think PC should have proximity voice chat and wouldn't use it. So why implement it?

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

The bottom line is that most PC players are voting that they do not think PC should have proximity voice chat and wouldn't use it. So why implement it?

86 people’s not exactly a good sample of the population. It’s a start, though. The concerns cited also don’t really hold much water—not that ZOS designs around player polls, anyway.

The main issue’s that it’d be redundant. Discord’s already the de facto solution to this problem, including on servers with built-in voice chat.

Having said that, it sure seems like some folks enjoy the heck out of the proximity chat. It’s also what keeps me from using it—and more generally from going to Auridon.

Mostly I see this as completely harmless, albeit quite unlikely.

SilverBride · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

Mostly I see this as completely harmless, albeit quite unlikely.

I don't see it as harmless.

With text chat, if a player is being toxic they can be reported and screenshots can be taken of the offensive chat. But what if a player is being verbally toxic? How do we report that or put them on ignore? In fact, how do we even know which voice goes with which player?

I see nothing but bad coming from this.

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

I mean, you can report people for abusive behavior in the PSN’s voice chat. You’ll still have to hope ZOS actually responds to your ticket. But worrying about the policing of other people’s fun shouldn’t be our focus, should it?

Since you don’t have to activate it on, say, PSN—I know because I’ve done so—it’s not like people are suddenly forced into unwelcome conversations and situations. The same “bad behavior” is something, say, public Discord servers, etc. also face. So the idea that this would only occur in this situation and is kept at bay somehow by its lack of implementation on PC just doesn’t hold water.

PS. This is precisely why console players’ feedback is useful here. The current implementation of this makes it easy to block/mute people, and it also makes it clear who’s speaking. Those concerns, thankfully, can be safely disregarded.

SilverBride · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

But worrying about the policing of other people’s fun shouldn’t be our focus, should it?

If another player's "fun" consists of toxic speech, then yes we should.

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

The solution shouldn’t be to stifle speech because people might say something one doesn’t like. That’s why reporting exists. What you find “toxic” might not qualify as such to ZOS.

SilverBride · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

The solution shouldn’t be to stifle speech because people might say something one doesn’t like. That’s why reporting exists. What you find “toxic” might not qualify as such to ZOS.

Of course it's up to ZoS, but it has to be reported for them to see it and make a determination.

And it's not a matter of someone just saying something we may not like. I've seen some pretty toxic chat that left no doubt that it was in violation. How do we report that with voice chat and provide a log of the offense? Without some type of documented proof then how is it investigated?

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

The same way people report it to ZOS on consoles, presumably. I have no idea whether or not they log all conversations, and you’d likely be running afoul of at least some (say) state laws that require two-party consent for recording someone were you (I’m using “you” generally here) to take it on yourself to record them without explicit consent. But that’s a question for ZOS.

If the concern is that people might be toxic, then as you’ve pointed out this already exists in, e.g., zone chat. This also exists in various opt-in Discord servers and so on. It’s really just a matter of from whom does the service originate.

But if toxicity itself is the concern, then I fear this is a bit like tilting at windmills. Someone will invariably see a dragon and charge.

PS. Anecdotally, ZOS sure seems to have taken seriously player reports of a certain fellow who liked to post up in Elden Root’s services area. He was infamous on PSN for spamming the voice chat, playing loud music, and being disruptive. Then he got the boot. You wouldn’t have known about the voice chat antics unless you decided to explicitly join that area’s chat, and the person(s) speaking is/are made rather clear.

I have no proof of this, but I suspect there are ways to enforce these policies—that there must be, in fact.

Vaqual · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I don't need extra bandwidth to be occupied by pointless chatter.

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't need extra bandwidth to be occupied by pointless chatter.

Do you use Discord?

SilverBride · March 6

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

The same way people report it to ZOS on consoles, presumably.

I've never played on a console and have no idea how they do that.

sans-culottes wrote: »

If the concern is that people might be toxic, then as you’ve pointed out this already exists in, e.g., zone chat. This also exists in various opt-in Discord servers and so on. It’s really just a matter of from whom does the service originate.

It's very easy to report zone chat and take a screenshot showing the offensive chat, although I've rarely had to. Surprisingly, just announcing that I intend to take screenshots and report offensive chat if it doesn't stop usually does stop it.

I'm sure there is sometimes toxicity in Discord too, but that is not part of ESO and not relevant to what would happen within ESO.

sans-culottes · March 6

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Right, which is why console players’ voices are especially important here. I gave you an example of this, and I have firsthand experience with it.

Should ESO on PC have an *optional* proximity voice chat?

Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?