From Fun to Frustration: How Toxicity is Killing Content in ESO

HatchetHaro · March 4

1. Heavy attack builds let you expend very little effort to achieve ~70% of the damage output that your character can do in optimized builds, which works great for most content up to Veteran Dungeons (non-HM DLCs). Unfortunately, that is your ceiling, and in order to be able to tackle Veteran Trials (which I wouldn't consider "endgame"), you are expected to exceed that amount of damage output in order to carry your weight. Stick with HA builds if you want, but you need to understand the limits of what your build can do.

2. Why not just make a new character? It sounds like you haven't played long enough to be eligible for Crown gifting, so I doubt you have the full 20 character slots filled up.

katanagirl1 · March 4

I know you said the HA build wasn’t the main focus of your post, but I feel I just address your comments about toxic vet groups.

HA builds tend to stay way back from the bosses, which means they stand behind the healers. That is a big no no because you can only get heals if you are in front of them. More experienced players on traditional builds feel more comfortable standing in front of the healers because they trust their healers to keep them alive, whereas new HA players are fearful of damage and instinctively back away. You can probably get away with that in normal trials but not in vet.

As for being toxic about HA builds, it is only toxic if they personally insult you for running that build. For vet trials you need high dps and be able to run a class that fits into the group composition well. HA builds do not fit that well right now. Back when I was having pain in my hand I asked to switch from EC necro to HA sorc but I was told I could not. I did not take that as toxic. They got me a sub until I was better.

I am glad you are enjoying the normal trials at least. Good luck.

sans-culottes · March 4

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I know you said the HA build wasn’t the main focus of your post, but I feel I just address your comments about toxic vet groups.

HA builds tend to stay way back from the bosses, which means they stand behind the healers. That is a big no no because you can only get heals if you are in front of them. More experienced players on traditional builds feel more comfortable standing in front of the healers because they trust their healers to keep them alive, whereas new HA players are fearful of damage and instinctively back away. You can probably get away with that in normal trials but not in vet.

As for being toxic about HA builds, it is only toxic if they personally insult you for running that build. For vet trials you need high dps and be able to run a class that fits into the group composition well. HA builds do not fit that well right now. Back when I was having pain in my hand I asked to switch from EC necro to HA sorc but I was told I could not. I did not take that as toxic. They got me a sub until I was better.

I am glad you are enjoying the normal trials at least. Good luck.

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

CatoUnchained · March 4

abkam wrote: »

I have to share this with all of you.

So, I love the HA build, for so many reasons. But right now, I won’t go into detail. I just want to say: I really love HA!

However, as you all know, playing with this build isn’t easy. I mean, of course, the build itself is simple, but being accepted in groups? That’s a whole different story. It’s insanely hard to get into HM content and endgame trials. And since I’ve already completed all my quests, and almost owning all items, there’s not much left for me to do in-game to keep myself entertained.

So, I did something crazy, I bought another account! Yeah, why not? Time to start all over again.
After leveling up my new character, going through the story, and finally reaching CP160, I started running normal trials. And you won’t believe what I discovered…
Players in normal trials are AMAZING. Seriously. it’s like stepping into a completely different world. Players are friendly, helpful, and just there to have fun. No one cares if you have one bar, two bars, or even if you go in naked. They just want to play the game. And it’s incredible!

As a veteran player, all I’ve ever seen in vet trials is toxicity. Players get kicked for having low CP. Others are bullied for their low DPS. And honestly? We, the veteran players, are the ones killing the game. Yep, I finally understand why so many players quit. Veteran content is just way too toxic.

On my main account, I have a long list of ignored players, either because I was toxic, they were toxic, or we just ended up ignoring each other. But guess what? In normal trials, some of those same players and I are friends! Why? Because we’re just playing the game for fun. It’s a completely different experience.

Now, here’s where things get even more frustrating.

On my main account, I have 8k+ Crowns. My wife has 4k+. And yet, we can’t gift them. As you might understand, I can’t play without my merchant, banker, and other essential NPCs. So, I reached out to support and asked them to remove Crowns from my account and use them to gift a Merchant, just a Merchant, to my other account. Support said no. -.-

So now, I have to return to my main account because I literally can’t play the game without NPCs and ESO Plus, I understand that many players can handle this, traveling to a city, selling, returning, and repeating the process. But, I can't (Consequence of years of bad habits in ESO). That means going back to the toxic environment, back to dealing with ignored players, and back to the same frustrating experience.

And you know what? This is 100% ZoS’s fault. Why? Because certain addons have made players more obsessed with DPS than actually playing the damn game. Only normal players and newer players truly enjoy the game for what it is. And for a brief moment, I got to experience that joy too.

But not anymore. Not after this;

GG ZoS, Good Game!!!

There are surely some legitimate pain points in ESO, but it seems everyone has a differing opinion on what those pain points are. For me, I hate random normals. I only run them when leveling toons, and there is always someone who runs ahead and messes up the ability to pick up and or complete the quest somewhere along the way, and even if you ask nicely, they just do their own thing. This just happened to me in Selenes web yesterday. So for me it's the random norms that are the most toxic portion of the game, and I'm a PvP main and see a lot of toxic behavior.

But the most senseless pain point from a business standpoint is ZOS' enabling crown gifting policy. Crown gifting should be enabled until someone abuses the system, then have the right taken away. Not have some nebulous criteria to enable crown gifting that ZOS refuses to share with us so we don't even know what we have to do to enable crown gifting.

In the end the only solution is to just never buy crowns.

katanagirl1 · March 4

sans-culottes wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I know you said the HA build wasn’t the main focus of your post, but I feel I just address your comments about toxic vet groups.

HA builds tend to stay way back from the bosses, which means they stand behind the healers. That is a big no no because you can only get heals if you are in front of them. More experienced players on traditional builds feel more comfortable standing in front of the healers because they trust their healers to keep them alive, whereas new HA players are fearful of damage and instinctively back away. You can probably get away with that in normal trials but not in vet.

As for being toxic about HA builds, it is only toxic if they personally insult you for running that build. For vet trials you need high dps and be able to run a class that fits into the group composition well. HA builds do not fit that well right now. Back when I was having pain in my hand I asked to switch from EC necro to HA sorc but I was told I could not. I did not take that as toxic. They got me a sub until I was better.

I am glad you are enjoying the normal trials at least. Good luck.

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

My guild vet prog group was very supportive of me, they did not insist that I keep running that character. Having a character that is required to light attack weave was just too much for my old hands. Once I got better I leveled up an arcanist and that was much easier for me. They got someone else to run EC cro.

Ph1p · March 4

sans-culottes wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I know you said the HA build wasn’t the main focus of your post, but I feel I just address your comments about toxic vet groups.

HA builds tend to stay way back from the bosses, which means they stand behind the healers. That is a big no no because you can only get heals if you are in front of them. More experienced players on traditional builds feel more comfortable standing in front of the healers because they trust their healers to keep them alive, whereas new HA players are fearful of damage and instinctively back away. You can probably get away with that in normal trials but not in vet.

As for being toxic about HA builds, it is only toxic if they personally insult you for running that build. For vet trials you need high dps and be able to run a class that fits into the group composition well. HA builds do not fit that well right now. Back when I was having pain in my hand I asked to switch from EC necro to HA sorc but I was told I could not. I did not take that as toxic. They got me a sub until I was better.

I am glad you are enjoying the normal trials at least. Good luck.

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

When a football player gets injured, they are rotated out of the squad until they recuperate, because their performance might otherwise be a drag on the rest of the team. In what universe is this considered toxic?

FlameDark · March 4

Hiya!

So I just looked up the rules for enabling crown gifting. Your account does need to be 180 days old past its first login. You posted that you're currently at 162 days, so you're not quite there yet! Probably why it hasn't been enabled yet. Also here's some more info on it:

So when you reach the 180 days and you still can't do crown store gifting, you can just follow the steps there to get it activated. I don't think they'll EVER let anyone transfer actual crowns between accounts. So that will be your best bet is to wait for the 180 timer to finish on that account and get in touch through that if it isn't automatically enabled.

This is where I found all the info btw: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644559/crown-store-gifting-update-october-2023/p1

sans-culottes · March 4

Ph1p wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I know you said the HA build wasn’t the main focus of your post, but I feel I just address your comments about toxic vet groups.

HA builds tend to stay way back from the bosses, which means they stand behind the healers. That is a big no no because you can only get heals if you are in front of them. More experienced players on traditional builds feel more comfortable standing in front of the healers because they trust their healers to keep them alive, whereas new HA players are fearful of damage and instinctively back away. You can probably get away with that in normal trials but not in vet.

As for being toxic about HA builds, it is only toxic if they personally insult you for running that build. For vet trials you need high dps and be able to run a class that fits into the group composition well. HA builds do not fit that well right now. Back when I was having pain in my hand I asked to switch from EC necro to HA sorc but I was told I could not. I did not take that as toxic. They got me a sub until I was better.

I am glad you are enjoying the normal trials at least. Good luck.

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

When a football player gets injured, they are rotated out of the squad until they recuperate, because their performance might otherwise be a drag on the rest of the team. In what universe is this considered toxic?

Maybe in one where we don’t view video games as equivalent to professional sports?

But since the OP was apparently discussing Crown gifting, it sure seems as though @FlameDark had some solid insights.

Morvan · March 4

It's not really about toxicity, HA builds just underperform overall, they don't "bully" or "kick" HA builds because they don't like it, it's just for the simple fact low DPS make some hardcore achievements very difficult or impossible to achieve.

But I agree, some people can be very insensitive about this and will straight up exclude you from content without any explanation.

If you underperform on a standard build you will very likely be treated the same, the difference is that on a HA build you'll be guaranteed to underperform, hence why most top-end players don't see them with good eyes.

On normal trials though, DPS isn't that much of an issue at all, people can run all sorts of builds and the content will still be achievable, that's why they simply do not care about your DPS, because it won't be an obstacle for beating that trial.

Thysbe · March 4

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

allochthons · March 4

Thysbe wrote: »

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

Different disabilities have different pain. I use both a HA Sorc, and an Arcanist, and while both are much easier on my arthritic hands than a standard 2-bar build, the HA Sorc is much less painful. I use it when I can, with easier content, and the Arcanist in Cloudrest and harder content.

Orbital78 · March 4

CatoUnchained wrote: »

But the most senseless pain point from a business standpoint is ZOS' enabling crown gifting policy. Crown gifting should be enabled until someone abuses the system, then have the right taken away. Not have some nebulous criteria to enable crown gifting that ZOS refuses to share with us so we don't even know what we have to do to enable crown gifting.

In the end the only solution is to just never buy crowns.

They shot themselves in the foot by giving away thousands of free Epic Games accounts, 100% disposable accounts to cheat and exploit with. I have a feeling it would be overwhelming if they allowed all the fraudulent account actions to roam free. By that time players would have already traded gold for them, but then again I guess they are banning innocent players already for this. It has been mentioned on WCE that there are bad actors getting random legit players banned in the collateral of their money making.

sans-culottes · March 4

Thysbe wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

Thank goodness I didn’t say that.

However, I did say it’s interesting how what’s toxic to one person is completely reasonable and even desirable to some others. If that’s saying “please carry everyone,” then guilty as charged.

El_Borracho · March 4

I'm totally lost. What does someone not wanting an HA sorc in a HM trial have to do with the inability to gift crowns, and how are either toxic?

Plenty of guilds are fine with HA sorcs in some HM content, but the reality is they are pretty limited in terms of DPS in comparison to other builds, including Arcs. If the players are being jerks about it, find another guild. Unless you're trying to run a HM trial in a pug. Yikes.

sans-culottes · March 4

El_Borracho wrote: »

I'm totally lost. What does someone not wanting an HA sorc in a HM trial have to do with the inability to gift crowns, and how are either toxic?

Plenty of guilds are fine with HA sorcs in some HM content, but the reality is they are pretty limited in terms of DPS in comparison to other builds, including Arcs. If the players are being jerks about it, find another guild. Unless you're trying to run a HM trial in a pug. Yikes.

It’s hard to disentangle the many threads baked into the OP’s post. I’ve been trying to focus on the Crown gifting issue, but it’s evident that OP is having a number of difficulties.

Franchise408 · March 4

Thysbe wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

I can't imagine playing a game for any reason other than having fun, or playing a game with a group of people that make me play anything other than what's fun for me.

sans-culottes · March 4

Franchise408 wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

I can't imagine playing a game for any reason other than having fun, or playing a game with a group of people that make me play anything other than what's fun for me.

Well said. If this is fun for others, then great. However, being micromanaged in a game is the opposite of fun for many people, too. It’s almost as if there are structural problems with the gameplay given that mythics are needed to provide alternatives to imbalanced classes, to open up gameplay for persons with disabilities, etc.

sarahthes · March 4

Franchise408 wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

I can't imagine playing a game for any reason other than having fun, or playing a game with a group of people that make me play anything other than what's fun for me.

My idea of fun is doing things in a very sweaty way. Your idea of fun and my idea of fun are incompatible.

flaxegg · March 4

Thysbe wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

It’s interesting to note how “toxicity” is interpreted differently here. Personally, few things would drive me away faster than being forced to run something that was causing me pain—with the only options being improvement in the symptoms or replacement.

And you think that it is a healthy social behaviour to expect others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in any serious effort? IMHO this kind of entitlement is the real toxicity.

I would love to play Magblade in my dungeon Trifecta group but my personal preferences would cost the group several months in progress because I simply can´t do the same damage and have the same survivability compared to playing a 2 button arcanist. So instead of calling my dear mates toxic, I grit my teeth because of the imbalanced game, and play Arcanist so we can achieve our goals together as a team.

Since they introdced the Arcanist and the Telvanni Amulet I don´t see the reason for insting on HA build because of health reasons. With that you can easily do more damage with a basic rotation than with a HA build, no weaving necessary.

I also think it's important to note that the original statement here (that the person you responded to was responding to) was re: an injury or condition of some kind that was causing physical pain and making the player's current class temporarily inaccessible asking their group if they could switch out their class until it got better, not someone wanting to play something just 'cause. I would argue that particular situation is not expecting "others that hardly know you to carry you because you are entitled to clear every content without putting in serious effort" and more in line with asking for reasonable accommodations. (Not sure exactly how that conversation went so not going to go to much into it, whether alternatives should have been suggested, etc., but I do think there is a diff between asking for a temporary change and just not wanting to do something for no reason)

But this is the main reason I don't do serious PvE content. Think my worldview just clashes too much with most of the population that enjoys it, and that's fine lol.

abkam · March 4

I thought I was done with this topic, but it seems I need to say a bit more.

All I said was that I love HA builds. It's my main character, the most fun for me, and I know I can play it better than many Arcanists out there.
Why do people assume I only play with HA? Just because I like it more than other classes? oO What the hell is wrong with you!?
I have one Arcanist (definitely good DPS), one Templar (solid DPS), one Dragon Knight (my best DPS, no question), one NecroEC (RIP), and two healers—Warden RoJo and Nightblade SPC/Pillagers. They all use two bars, and I can play any of them! But I love HA. And the fact that I even have to explain this in detail only proves my point—players aren’t just toxic about HA; they lose their minds every time they see one.

All I did was create a topic saying I love HA. And because I can't handle the toxicity anymore, I bought another account, and about the fact that I can't send a gift from one account to another!

For the love of God, not everyone here represents the toxicity I see in-game, but some of you sure are proving my point!

For the love of good... this madness has to end.

And I'll say this again! So many of you claim that HA can't handle HM… Prove it to me, please. To this day, not a single player has proven to me that "HA can't do HM." (And no, I'm not talking about Trifectas.) Not now, not ever! Stop this madness.

The truth is simple—HA is damn good. And the real reason so many players hate it? Because their performance is worse than HA, and they can't stand it.

abkam · March 4

@ZOS_Icy, Please close this topic. None of this makes sense now; it's 100% off-topic.

We're about to start another pointless war here—because they can't prove anything to me. Sure, they can prove they do more DPS, but they will NOT prove that HA can't handle any HM. And I will stand by my position and fight.

spartaxoxo · March 4

Morvan wrote: »

It's not really about toxicity, HA builds just underperform overall, they don't "bully" or "kick" HA builds because they don't like it, it's just for the simple fact low DPS make some hardcore achievements very difficult or impossible to achieve.

A lot of them came here to ensure that demanding nerfs specifically to damage to heavy attack builds so they couldn't do certain achievements.

sarahthes · March 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

It's not really about toxicity, HA builds just underperform overall, they don't "bully" or "kick" HA builds because they don't like it, it's just for the simple fact low DPS make some hardcore achievements very difficult or impossible to achieve.

A lot of them came here to ensure that demanding nerfs specifically to damage to heavy attack builds so they couldn't do certain achievements.

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

Also didn't care for the 82K health oakensoul "healer" who joined one of my group finder runs a few months back, but that was because they didn't heal, do damage, or tank.

spartaxoxo · March 5

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs. Anyone who enjoys them should be aware of that and maybe choose Arcanist instead as their easier class (if possible) as there is less hostility towards Arcanist.

sarahthes · March 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs.

Let me note - I only care when I'm the raid lead. If it's someone else's run I'm chilling.

That said, HA builds do not do sufficient damage for the strats my runs follow; that is why I exclude them.

If it's not sweaty HM (meaning: scorepush strat) or pug trifecta runs though I don't really care. I'll roster them for easier content.

spartaxoxo · March 5

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs.

Let me note - I only care when I'm the raid lead. If it's someone else's run I'm chilling.

That said, HA builds do not do sufficient damage for the strats my runs follow; that is why I exclude them.

If it's not sweaty HM (meaning: scorepush strat) or pug trifecta runs though I don't really care. I'll roster them for easier content.

Yes, and I am saying that HA builds are not only excluded for sufficient damage because the trial community came on these forums and demanded they do insufficient damage for the harder stuff. I'm not talking about your personal preference, apologies if that was unclear. I am specifically talking about the community response to heavy attack builds which was explicitly to demand their damage be nerfed specifically to prevent them from getting those achievements.

sarahthes · March 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs.

Let me note - I only care when I'm the raid lead. If it's someone else's run I'm chilling.

That said, HA builds do not do sufficient damage for the strats my runs follow; that is why I exclude them.

If it's not sweaty HM (meaning: scorepush strat) or pug trifecta runs though I don't really care. I'll roster them for easier content.

Yes, and I am saying that HA builds are not only excluded for sufficient damage because the trial community came on these forums and demanded they do insufficient damage for the harder stuff. I'm not talking about your personal preference, apologies if that was unclear. I am specifically talking about the community response to heavy attack builds which was explicitly to demand their damage be nerfed specifically to prevent them from getting those achievements.

I don't think the endgame community cares all that much.

I think it's the midgame community that cared.

At least on PC NA.

spartaxoxo · March 5

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs.

Let me note - I only care when I'm the raid lead. If it's someone else's run I'm chilling.

That said, HA builds do not do sufficient damage for the strats my runs follow; that is why I exclude them.

If it's not sweaty HM (meaning: scorepush strat) or pug trifecta runs though I don't really care. I'll roster them for easier content.

Yes, and I am saying that HA builds are not only excluded for sufficient damage because the trial community came on these forums and demanded they do insufficient damage for the harder stuff. I'm not talking about your personal preference, apologies if that was unclear. I am specifically talking about the community response to heavy attack builds which was explicitly to demand their damage be nerfed specifically to prevent them from getting those achievements.

I don't think the endgame community cares all that much.

I think it's the midgame community that cared.

At least on PC NA.

It was definitely endgame players that complained because they felt heavy attack builds devalued their achievement. I was there when it happened and pretty active on the forums. I remember thinking it was the survivability that should be nerfed and that nerfing damage would kill the build's viability in endgame content, which I thought was a bad idea since endgame needed people participating. But was told numerous times it was the point and such an easy build shouldn't be viable endgame.

Morvan · March 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of them came here to ensure that demanding nerfs specifically to damage to heavy attack builds so they couldn't do certain achievements.

HA builds did have their uprise at a very weird time, around U35, right? They were nerfing tons of things, but I can't really recall how much significantly better they were performing before the nerfs.

If I'm not mistaken even at their peak HA was still weaker than standard builds, but I guess people just wanted to increase the gap for the lack of effort involved on getting those numbers.

I do honestly think HA was nerfed so Arcanist could take its niche, it's basically the class for easy and accessible DPS, and it works much better than HA ever did.

Soarora · March 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The only issue I have with HA builds is people insisting on using them in my runs.

That's the issue a lot of trials players had. They didn't want to group with them but also did not want them "ruining" their achievements by getting them in other groups either. So, there was tons of requests for nerfs to their damage so that even the best HA build players wouldn't have the damage to get certain achievements. HA builds were already significantly lower damage than 2 bar builds but it was not enough.

So, I wouldn't say that heavy attack builds are only excluded because they don't enough damage. People don't want to group with them at all. Heavy attack builds aren't welcome in anything besides regular vet clear pugs.

Let me note - I only care when I'm the raid lead. If it's someone else's run I'm chilling.

That said, HA builds do not do sufficient damage for the strats my runs follow; that is why I exclude them.

If it's not sweaty HM (meaning: scorepush strat) or pug trifecta runs though I don't really care. I'll roster them for easier content.

Yes, and I am saying that HA builds are not only excluded for sufficient damage because the trial community came on these forums and demanded they do insufficient damage for the harder stuff. I'm not talking about your personal preference, apologies if that was unclear. I am specifically talking about the community response to heavy attack builds which was explicitly to demand their damage be nerfed specifically to prevent them from getting those achievements.

I don't think the endgame community cares all that much.

I think it's the midgame community that cared.

At least on PC NA.

It was definitely endgame players that complained because they felt heavy attack builds devalued their achievement. I was there when it happened and pretty active on the forums. I remember thinking it was the survivability that should be nerfed and that nerfing damage would kill the build's viability in endgame content, which I thought was a bad idea since endgame needed people participating. But was told numerous times it was the point and such an easy build shouldn't be viable endgame.

It wasn’t just people arguing about devalued achievements or it being easier than 2-bar. There were also points about how oakenHA makes it too easy to get in too deep too quickly (thus the stereotype of HA users not knowing basic things like standing in front of the healer and/or being stubborn and disliking the very community they were trying to join) but didn’t have enough DPS to actually reach the top. Also at least I was team “nerf it enough for it to not be meta anymore but don’t nuke it from orbit” because I was going mad hearing people complain about HA builds but then proceed to make everyone use HA builds for their runs (was so bad even dungeon groups started to require HA builds— dungeon groups approximately never have requirements).