This event once again proves

Frogmother · February 23

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

DeadlySerious · February 23

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

Freelancer_ESO · February 23

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You'd also potentially be able to pick up more PvP players from other games if you marketed it and the experience was good. (You'd likely need to do something about the mount speed in Cyrodiil such as give players max speed if they are ESO+.)

Yes, template PvP will likely lose some PvP players if you do it as some PvP players like customizing their builds and others like beating the snot out of people that can't compete with them at all.

Calastir · February 23

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 23

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

Or u can just buy them from a guild trader.

Calastir · February 23

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

Or u can just buy them from a guild trader.

For a ton of money, sure. 🙄

DenverRalphy · February 23

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

I'm a veritable noob to PvP in ESO. In all the years I've played, this is the first year I've ever decided to get my feet wet in the PvP arena. And I managed to get PvP gear from my PvE resources.

There are PvP crafted sets that require zero PvP. And tons of gear you can buy from the Traders to stickerbook for reconstruction using Transmute Crystals collected from PvE content, As well vaariouis PvE dungeon sets that are commonly used in PvP builds.

I geared up my PvP builds, and went charging into Cyro, IC, and BG's without a care in the world. I still got spanked quite a bit (cuz hey, you still gotta learn to play against humans), but I can confidently say that it wasn't due to the gear.

Calastir · February 23

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

I'm a veritable noob to PvP in ESO. In all the years I've played, this is the first year I've ever decided to get my feet wet in the PvP arena. And I managed to get PvP gear from my PvE resources.

There are crafted sets that require zero PvP. And tons of gear you can buy from the Traders to stickerbook for reconstruction using Transmute Crystals collected from PvE content, As well numerous PvE dungeon sets that are commonly used in PvP builds.

I geared up my PvP builds, and went charging into Cyro, IC, and BG's without a care in the world. I still got spanked quite a bit (cuz hey, you still gotta learn to play against humans), but it most I can confidently say that it wasn't due to the gear.

Good for you. But that was not the point of this topic.

DenverRalphy · February 23

Calastir wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

I'm a veritable noob to PvP in ESO. In all the years I've played, this is the first year I've ever decided to get my feet wet in the PvP arena. And I managed to get PvP gear from my PvE resources.

There are crafted sets that require zero PvP. And tons of gear you can buy from the Traders to stickerbook for reconstruction using Transmute Crystals collected from PvE content, As well numerous PvE dungeon sets that are commonly used in PvP builds.

I geared up my PvP builds, and went charging into Cyro, IC, and BG's without a care in the world. I still got spanked quite a bit (cuz hey, you still gotta learn to play against humans), but it most I can confidently say that it wasn't due to the gear.

Good for you. But that was not the point of this topic.

I merely presented data to refute your claim. I didn't bring it up. <shrug>

spartaxoxo · February 23

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

I'm a veritable noob to PvP in ESO. In all the years I've played, this is the first year I've ever decided to get my feet wet in the PvP arena. And I managed to get PvP gear from my PvE resources.

There are crafted sets that require zero PvP. And tons of gear you can buy from the Traders to stickerbook for reconstruction using Transmute Crystals collected from PvE content, As well numerous PvE dungeon sets that are commonly used in PvP builds.

I geared up my PvP builds, and went charging into Cyro, IC, and BG's without a care in the world. I still got spanked quite a bit (cuz hey, you still gotta learn to play against humans), but it most I can confidently say that it wasn't due to the gear.

Good for you. But that was not the point of this topic.

I merely presented data to refute your claim. I didn't bring it up. <shrug>

I think OP's point isn't

"It's too difficult to get PvP gear," but rather that having to collect gear for PvP at all creates an inferior PvP experience to games where gear plays no role in player success at all.

When you look at the most successful pvp games on the market, gear isn't a factor in most of them.

Personally, I think the OP has a point but it's probably too late for this game to change things up.

Calastir · February 23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

I'm a veritable noob to PvP in ESO. In all the years I've played, this is the first year I've ever decided to get my feet wet in the PvP arena. And I managed to get PvP gear from my PvE resources.

There are crafted sets that require zero PvP. And tons of gear you can buy from the Traders to stickerbook for reconstruction using Transmute Crystals collected from PvE content, As well numerous PvE dungeon sets that are commonly used in PvP builds.

I geared up my PvP builds, and went charging into Cyro, IC, and BG's without a care in the world. I still got spanked quite a bit (cuz hey, you still gotta learn to play against humans), but it most I can confidently say that it wasn't due to the gear.

Good for you. But that was not the point of this topic.

I merely presented data to refute your claim. I didn't bring it up. <shrug>

I think OP's point isn't

"It's too difficult to get PvP gear," but rather that having to collect gear for PvP at all creates an inferior PvP experience to games where gear plays no role in player success at all.

When you look at the most successful pvp games on the market, gear isn't a factor in most of them.

Personally, I think the OP has a point but it's probably too late for this game to change things up.

Finally someone who can read comprehensively. 👍

YandereGirlfriend · February 23

The overwhelming majority of current PvP players enjoy customizing their builds and would quit if something like the current Vengeance ruleset was crammed-down upon them.

licenturion · February 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of current PvP players enjoy customizing their builds and would quit if something like the current Vengeance ruleset was crammed-down upon them.

They could do both. The old and new format. The new format could be training grounds for new players/players starting in PvP and people who prefer a more balanced environment.

Everybody happy.

Northwold · February 23

Isn't the problem, even with the present setup, that for a new PVP player to know they needed to use PvP gear, the game would need to tell them that? Instead, people go in thinking "oh, I'll give it a go", with no idea, and immediately die and never come back. The game provides essentially no information on anything and the only way you can find out is by going to external websites. For dabblers, that won't happen.

And I've got to say, as an occasional dabbler, it has never even occurred to me to go out of my way to get entirely new gear just to pop my head in for a few hours. I'm just not that bothered (which, in terms of building the Cyro population is quite an impediment if others think like me). My own view is that the same gear, where necessary, should have different stats for PvP and PvE, if ZOS still wants PvP to be gear based.

The whole thing is pretty bizarre. It's like two completely different games cohabiting without clearly differentiating what gear is for which.

DeadlySerious · February 23

Calastir wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

What do you expect to happen when you go into PvP wearing PvE gear?

Your conclusion is not accurate because you didn't gear up for PvP in the first place. Plus, if ZOS mandates the template only PvP they're gonna lose a ton of the PvP players that most likely won't be replaced by the PvE crowd suddenly becoming enamored with PvP. The template only PvP system is a lose lose proposition for ZOS.

You have to play PvP to earn PvP gear... 🙄

Any PvP player would know this... 😑

Um, no.

ZOS puts the best PvP sets in PvE land, mostly in trials. There are some great crafted sets too, but very few top tier PvP players use the sets that drop in Cyrodiil, BG's and IC. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part ZOS sets it up so the PvP players have to grind out PvE content to get the best sets for PvP.

DeadlySerious · February 23

licenturion wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of current PvP players enjoy customizing their builds and would quit if something like the current Vengeance ruleset was crammed-down upon them.

They could do both. The old and new format. The new format could be training grounds for new players/players starting in PvP and people who prefer a more balanced environment.

Everybody happy.

I hadn't thought of it this way before. Very good point and thank you for making it.

The template only version of Cyrodiil might be a good beginner training ground for newer players wanting to try out PvP. The current PvP community won't settle for anything less than fixing/balancing the current game system already in place though. We're too far into this to go back now.

DeadlySerious · February 23

Northwold wrote: »

Isn't the problem, even with the present setup, that for a new PVP player to know they needed to use PvP gear, the game would need to tell them that? Instead, people go in thinking "oh, I'll give it a go", with no idea, and immediately die and never come back. The game provides essentially no information on anything and the only way you can find out is by going to external websites. For dabblers, that won't happen.

And I've got to say, as an occasional dabbler, it has never even occurred to me to go out of my way to get entirely new gear just to pop my head in for a few hours. I'm just not that bothered (which, in terms of building the Cyro population is quite an impediment if others think like me). My own view is that the same gear, where necessary, should have different stats for PvP and PvE, if ZOS still wants PvP to be gear based.

The whole thing is pretty bizarre. It's like two completely different games cohabiting without clearly differentiating what gear is for which.

Well, prior to U35 there were plenty of content creators out there explaining all the different PvP builds and strategies. But then there was U35 and ZOS' lack of response to the feedback before and after U35 went live. Some of the content creators even posted lengthy videos and explanations as to what would happen if and when U35 went live as is. Turns out they were right all along. Now player retention is much harder and there isn't anyone taking the time to create walk throughs for trials and other end game content. ZOS has nobody to blame but themselves. Now we have no schedule or guarantee of new content for any part of the game because why now?

SeaGtGruff · February 24

Regarding template-only PvP, I'm hoping it will just be one option (campaign or campaigns) among many, similar to how there are currently several different rulesets for Cyrodiil campaigns. Otherwise, if it replaces all existing rulesets then it could lead to an exodus of PvP players who enjoy one or another of the existing rulesets.

Dax_Draconis · February 24

I think I would enjoy template-only PvP better.

Soarora · February 24

My PvP builds are all PvE builds I slowly adapt based on what I see PvPers doing. Maybe I just got lucky, but it seems to be working out well. I don't think my gear is carrying me considering I'm running a stat set (same exact one I use in PvE, divines and all), rallying except I forget to proc it half the time (because I was running whorl and that's not gonna work in PvP), and sea-serpents (which I happened to have dug up already). I'm just a tad squishy but sea-serpents and class skills help mitigate that, so I don't topple over immediately like a typical PvEr in PvP experience.

katorga · February 24

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

If you are not wearing good pvp gear, how can you assume you are good? Just saying, gear is 50% of the build, even if it a simple stat build or on a 1v1 dueling build

Coordination is the other 50%. It doesn't matter how good an individual player is. It is how well the team functions.

Gspawn · February 24

I have zero issue with PvP players. I just choose not to do it. So this weeks Golden Endeavours being basically you do PvP or you get zilch is kind of not right. I also don't see the sense of storing another full set of armour you need to die over and over to get.

Soarora · February 24

Gspawn wrote: »

I have zero issue with PvP players. I just choose not to do it. So this weeks Golden Endeavours being basically you do PvP or you get zilch is kind of not right. I also don't see the sense of storing another full set of armour you need to die over and over to get.

The 3 rewards from the golden pursuit are PvP themed, the people who benefit the most from the currencies are those who don't often PvP but are willing to give it a shot. But you don't need the currencies for anything, except tel var which you can more easily farm not during the event. You also do not at all need to die to get PvP armor, I'm pretty sure every gear set (except for the monster helmets) from PvP is unbound and thus on guild traders. I buy a lot of them for collection because I'm not gonna farm AP and spam uncurated boxes at cities. If anything, you need to die over and over to get PvE armor haha.

Renato90085 · February 24

wait what, when difficult to get PvP gear?
they are not all craft set or overland/dungreon set?

Frogmother · February 24

[

katorga wrote: »

Frogmother wrote: »

that gear based PvP does not work.
No matter how good you are , a worse player with PvP gear will have a too big advantage over you. Such events are a fun trap for everyone who wants the rewards but usually does not participate in PvP.

Edit:
almost every Battleground game ends becaus we steamroll the other team or we get steamrolled by them. Less than a handful games was more or less even.

If you are not wearing good pvp gear, how can you assume you are good? Just saying, gear is 50% of the build, even if it a simple stat build or on a 1v1 dueling build

Coordination is the other 50%. It doesn't matter how good an individual player is. It is how well the team functions.

I had games which ended with 27 kills and 1 death, while wearing pve gear. That tells me I'm not that bad. Honestly, I felt bad for the other players.
I also fought players in PvP armour who needed a lot of time to kill me and they only won because of their PvP gear. I could not outdamage their heals due to the damage mitigation and they were really bad at doing damage to me. It was just a slow grind until my death.

Coordination is important, but then again a player in a full PvP armour can take a while group of PvP players. I saw that more than once. If course it should be a good PvP player, but the gear gives him a huge advantage.

I have no issues losing to a better player, I criticize the general decision to make PvP heavily dependent on gear.

moo_2021 · February 24

Frogmother wrote: »

I also fought players in PvP armour who needed a lot of time to kill me and they only won because of their PvP gear. I could not outdamage their heals due to the damage mitigation and they were really bad at doing damage to me. It was just a slow grind until my death.

They were not. Many PvP builds are designed for burst power, not constant damage

They were waiting for the right moment, for ultimate, dot stacking, or your resource running out if you can survive their burst. Dealing pressure alone is just a waste of resource unless you're in group fighting.

SkaiFaith · February 24

I don't know how much gear affects the results but I encounter the same problem in every PvP game - even when I queue for 8v8 Battlegrounds I end up in a squad of solo players playing randomly for fun versus two teams of organized, COMPETITIVE PvPers (I thought they had Ranked for a reason).
I don't know how this is possible but I have this same issue in every PvP game I try, so I tend to give up on PvP entirely, not having exactly a good opinion of PvPers; like what happens when a PvPer camps questers at turn-in or fishing spots in Cyrodiil/IC.

I had high hopes for "CASUALS 8v8" as a PvEer but I had better results in 4v4v4, surprisingly.

ApoAlaia · February 24

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I don't know how much gear affects the results but I encounter the same problem in every PvP game - even when I queue for 8v8 Battlegrounds I end up in a squad of solo players playing randomly for fun versus two teams of organized, COMPETITIVE PvPers (I thought they had Ranked for a reason).
I don't know how this is possible but I have this same issue in every PvP game I try, so I tend to give up on PvP entirely, not having exactly a good opinion of PvPers; like what happens when a PvPer camps questers at turn-in or fishing spots in Cyrodiil/IC.

I had high hopes for "CASUALS 8v8" as a PvEer but I had better results in 4v4v4, surprisingly.

Same.

I was hoping that 8v8 would be a bit more laid back; I too thought that organised groups of experienced PvP players would stick to 4v4v4 where they are much more likely to find a challenge.

Oh boy was I wrong

Either way I am done with the golden pursuit, I don't need to step foot on BGs again for the foreseeable future \o/

Artim_X · February 24

IMHO I completely disagree with the OP. Yes your gear is very important, but the skills you slot and how you use them will make the difference.

WaywardArgonian · February 24

Not sure how this is a gear issue specifically.

The post starts with "No matter how good you are." Good at what? If you rarely play PVP you will probably not be very good at PVP. Gear is a factor but so is player skill. If you'd put everyone in a template, the steamroll effect would diminish but it would definitely still exist. It's more of an issue pertaining to matchmaking and map size.

ApoAlaia · February 24

Artim_X wrote: »

IMHO I completely disagree with the OP. Yes your gear is very important, but the skills you slot and how you use them will make the difference.

When it comes to the OP I agree with you.

I have access to almost all gear in the game - stickerbook almost complete, just some odds and ends like the MA 'regular' sets left - and a ginormous pool of transmutes and mats.

Still, there is no combination of sets I can reconstruct that can bridge the skill gap between myself and a competent PvP player. It is simply a non-starter.

I did put something together (in terms of gear and skills) that played to my [realistically almost non-existent] strengths but that is as far as I could go (and unsurprisingly as far as it took me).