Overland Content Feedback Thread

disky · January 23

Whizzinglane wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

There were a lot of reasons why early ESO nearly failed, and it wasn't because it was "too hard"...

Cadwell's Silver and Gold wasn't a problem of being "too hard", it was the fact that it was just a rehash of all the content you just did, but now you were faction locked to another faction.

I played back then and the difficulty was a huge issue. I remember dying to mobs of wolves and other overland mobs just trying to quest.

I also was one of the few that completed Caldwell's Silver and Gold, and those zones were progressively more difficult. I did it on one character then ended up leaving until One Tamriel, because of the difficulty.

It was also not unusual to spend days to defeat a story boss.

Caldwell's Silver and Gold took the player through the other faction's zones, but the zones and stories and quests were not the same ones being rehashed. They were the same zones and quests that are in the base game now. The problem was the difficulty.

I understand that you and some others might have had a difficult time fighting regular mobs, but you must understand that vast majority of players did not. I've been playing since PC beta and then moved to console on launch and neither I or any of my friends and guildmates had a slightest issue defeating mobs or quest bosses solo. It was quite easy. We only had to do world bosses in pairs.

What i know people had difficulty with is understanding the core mechanics and skills as they thought it will be Skyrim on-line (many even called it that way).

As a poster before said that there was a massive issue with playing with friends. I just had a flashback how annoying it was to some and made them leave the game. The whole point of "explore the world with friends" was taken away the moment you went ahead in a quest or selected a different faction. It was ruining the fun and Immersion. ESO has fixed most of its problems now, and it's time to try to get people to try it again and fix it's reputation.

I'm part of the most popular mmo website of my country and every time ESO news is posted everyone in the comments say one of these or all of them together:

- this game with wooden, combat
- this game with god awful animations that make me not want to look at my character when it runs
- this single-player game
- not again this boring game with zero progression because you kill everything with 1 skill
- this game where there's no point to group up at all
- a game for lonely people
- let it die already, it's a house decorator not an mmo
- a game that made a buzz with Cyrodil and let it die right after

Some of these comments are on point and some are still based on the first impression of the game they had when they tried it 10 years ago. It pains me to read it because I absolutely love ESO and I think it could be the best mmo ever made if it took itself a bit more seriously.

I'm very glad that the Devs finally are trying a new approach. If the game will cater to the broader audience, it will get more funding. More funding will mean more options and content for people of any skill to enjoy.

THIS POST! I agree with everything this poster--this player who had played the game at its infancy wrote here! We are simply asking the Devs to re-add "some" difficulty back into the game.

It was player working with one another, and it was fun back then! I am simply asking for "some" difficulty. Since the Devs are focusing on the old zones or base game, now is the opportune time to add this most desired improvement back into the game.

The question is...does it have to affect everyone? If you think so, why? The argument has been made that the gulf in skill/gear required compared to "endgame" content is a concern, but there are many valid, reasonable arguments to the contrary, and the solution doesn't have to be universal.

It may be that some people simply don't care about how status quo players feel about this, but discounting their perspective means that you will not get what you want. There are more of them then there are those who want things to change, and like I keep saying, they pay the bills.

Arunei · January 23

rrbreezy wrote: »

If you’re this worried about parsing “priority” vs. whatever the exact wording was, then that’s your prerogative. Some things are too pedantic even for me.

You're the one who specifically used the phrasing "they explicitly listed it as a priority" though. When the letter never mentioned that at all. It kind of matters what the exact phrasing was. Merely mentioning something doesn't equate to it being a priority.

Arunei · January 23

Whizzinglane wrote: »

THIS POST! I agree with everything this poster--this player who had played the game at its infancy wrote here! We are simply asking the Devs to re-add "some" difficulty back into the game.

It was player working with one another, and it was fun back then! I am simply asking for "some" difficulty. Since the Devs are focusing on the old zones or base game, now is the opportune time to add this most desired improvement back into the game.

Yes, and plenty of us who don't want harder Overland imposed on us have ALSO been playing since the game's infancy. I've been playing since closed beta.

And you can't ask for just "some" difficulty. Like I said in a previous post, the only way people who want harder Overland will feel engaged and challenged is if there is a noticeable increase in difficulty. Just bumping up damage and HP of mobs a little bit isn't going to give most the challenge they want. It'll need to be a marked change, and this change is something the reat of us would have to deal with IF it turns out to be a blanket change.

And here's where I'll ask a question; if people who want the change to be imposed on everyone don't want to play the game now because it's too easy to them, why should the people who are happy with it now or can't handle a big jump in difficulty expected to put up with something harder? Why is the group who wants harder stuff more important than those who don't want things to change?

Other games have apparently done things to allow people to have a choice between harder or easier. There's no reason ZOS shouldn't be able to develop an optional thing as well. Wanting it to be forced on everyone is quite literally wanting people who don't want that challenge to deal with it anyway, while also complaining that they don't want to deal with an easy game. Hypocrisy is never a good look on anyone.

tohopka_eso · January 23

BananaBender wrote: »

I wanted to see how easy/difficult the questing experience would be for a beginner player, so I played through the West Weald main quest line. (not all the way through since it requires completing Necrom questline as well and I didn't have the time nor the interest to complete that for this test)

Of course I can't just remove thousands of hours of experience, so I limited myself with a few criteria,
No light attacks. None what so ever to negate the benefits from weaving.

Heavy attack only for resources.

I'm only allowed to use a single skill, which in this case was Puncturing Sweeps.

Only purple crafted gear with purple enchants. No monster sets, mythics or arena weapons.

No CP (remembered the existence of CP only at the last boss, though it made minimal difference)

Minimal movement. I moved only if the boss jumped out of reach.

No companion or any outside help.

I logged all boss pulls, so you don't have to take my word for it, but I will break down the logs for people who don't know how to read logs.

SPOILER ALERT Minor spoilers about the West Weald story line (boss names)
I used the same setup the whole time, Order's Wrath and Claw of the Forest Wraith with 2pc Assassin's Guile. I had a normal skill bar, but as stated in the rules I only used Puncturing Sweeps.

So, how was the final boss of the quest line? It was mind blowingly simple and easy. There is no really other way to put it. Even when restricting myself as much as possible to a point where I was using the Crown Recovery food you get for free from login rewards to try to make my HP move even a little bit. As I will show you, it barely did. None of the heavy attacks from any of the bosses dealt ANY damage to me, even when in 6pc light armor. There was a fight where a quest follower gives you a shield, and during the whole fight the enemy DID NOT EVEN MANAGE TO BREAK IT.
I genuinely do not know how I could further restrict myself for there to be a single bit of challenge, apart from wearing actively harmful sets or nothing at all.

These are all taken from the Shardmarshal Vargas fight, which is the last fight before you are required to complete Necrom.
Here is every single cast I used from skills to potions and everything in between.

(Abolisher is the mechanic given to you in the fight)

This picture shows my HP during the fight, while actively standing in everything that could hurt me. It also shows that I had a max HP of 17,680. I was a nord with every attribute point put into Magicka.

Here is my damage taken sources, note that not a single attack was blocked.

Full logs for anyone interested ↓
https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:TVdMpafqrmRQYnA2

At this point I don't really even know what to think. I know this won't change anyone's opinion or anything and at this point I don't really care.
I'm just so disappointed honestly... How has this been the acceptable state of the quests for this long? The questing experience isn't easy, it's a joke.

I was under the impression that the fights were really easy only because of my build and overall knowledge of the game and its mechanics, but that just wasn't the case. The enemy won't deal damage even if you give them time to. You don't have to have damage, weaving, healing, shielding, resistances, buffs or anything, literally nothing is required or expected. You have to show up and that's it. I know I was using a skill which heals and deals damage and not all classes have access to it, so some classes might have to use a second key to finish the last fight. At this point might as well have the forced quest companions fight the battle for you.

The visuals were amazing and I absolutely loved how the quest areas looked now that I had more time to look around. The story was solid in my opinion. But all that world building and story telling was completely broken by the encounters. There was no immersion as if we were actually invading a daedric price's realm, as her loyal followers were not even able to break through the shield given to me automatically by a quest NPC, as if that was ever required when my passive HP regen was almost enough to out heal the incoming damage.

I was hoping to be more objective than this, but I just simply cannot. I don't see a single reason why one skill is all you need to breeze through everything. I gave my best attempt at seeing the other side of the argument, but at this point I just cannot. I don't know what would I have to do to make this even a close fight. I could go on and on about how much of a disappointment all of this was, but I think I'm done for now.

Yet, I still have issues with some overland and I been playing since beta. The boss fights get too chaotic sometimes.
I normally only light attack. I use a controller on PC, I also don't use META builds. Just what I think I need. Why I don't do vet dungeons and such.
Sometimes I forget to roll dodge, other times my nerve damage locks certain fingers up at the worst time.
These are things some are not taking into account in my opinion. When I create a new alt I usually only use the skills I start unlocking wearing a mix of white to purple gear that I use from finding across the area.
I have played other MMOs as well.
As I've said when I decided to join this thread, lvling in ESO is almost non-existent due to the cap being 50. But CP is always growing till you unlock what one might need.
The other MMOs I've played through lvling is usually increased which starts power creeping on stats.
I tried that slider in Lotro when it went live. Hardly anyone in the game when I logged in liked it.
I'm about as casual and solo a person can be though when I play.

BananaBender · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I gave my best attempt at seeing the other side of the argument, but at this point I just cannot.

I feel the exact same way, but from the other perspective.

I see Overland for what it is... the place to quest and play through the story. I'm the hero that helps countless NPCs save their homes, so I should be strong and powerful.

If I level and gear my character, and set up a good build, the questing zone enemies should become easy to defeat. They should not be a challenge for a well developed character.

This is why I just cannot understand why Overland should be expected to challenge the player. That isn't what Overland is.

I get what you mean because I actually feel the same way. I don't want the whole overland to require a 12 man prog group and I honestly think that apart from quests West Weald overland is in pretty good spot when it comes to difficulty.

I too want to be the hero that helps countless NPCs, but I don't want their problems solved simply because I showed up within 50 meters of their local village. It feels there is nothing to save them from when there is no resemblance of danger to begin with. I want the player character to feel like a hero, not like a god.

As you said,

SilverBride wrote: »

If I level and gear my character, and set up a good build, the questing zone enemies should become easy to defeat. They should not be a challenge for a well developed character.

And I absolutely agree with that, because right now it just simply is not the case. All the problems and dangers simply vanish the moment the player shows up even if they are naked and wearing mismatched weapons. For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

sans-culottes · January 23

Arunei wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

If you’re this worried about parsing “priority” vs. whatever the exact wording was, then that’s your prerogative. Some things are too pedantic even for me.

You're the one who specifically used the phrasing "they explicitly listed it as a priority" though. When the letter never mentioned that at all. It kind of matters what the exact phrasing was. Merely mentioning something doesn't equate to it being a priority.

So it’s not a priority, but they plan to do something about it and have broadcasted their intentions? Unlike with Grave Lord’s Sacrifice? I’m not here to play word games.

tohopka_eso wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I wanted to see how easy/difficult the questing experience would be for a beginner player, so I played through the West Weald main quest line. (not all the way through since it requires completing Necrom questline as well and I didn't have the time nor the interest to complete that for this test)

Of course I can't just remove thousands of hours of experience, so I limited myself with a few criteria,
No light attacks. None what so ever to negate the benefits from weaving.

Heavy attack only for resources.

I'm only allowed to use a single skill, which in this case was Puncturing Sweeps.

Only purple crafted gear with purple enchants. No monster sets, mythics or arena weapons.

No CP (remembered the existence of CP only at the last boss, though it made minimal difference)

Minimal movement. I moved only if the boss jumped out of reach.

No companion or any outside help.

I logged all boss pulls, so you don't have to take my word for it, but I will break down the logs for people who don't know how to read logs.

SPOILER ALERT Minor spoilers about the West Weald story line (boss names)
I used the same setup the whole time, Order's Wrath and Claw of the Forest Wraith with 2pc Assassin's Guile. I had a normal skill bar, but as stated in the rules I only used Puncturing Sweeps.

So, how was the final boss of the quest line? It was mind blowingly simple and easy. There is no really other way to put it. Even when restricting myself as much as possible to a point where I was using the Crown Recovery food you get for free from login rewards to try to make my HP move even a little bit. As I will show you, it barely did. None of the heavy attacks from any of the bosses dealt ANY damage to me, even when in 6pc light armor. There was a fight where a quest follower gives you a shield, and during the whole fight the enemy DID NOT EVEN MANAGE TO BREAK IT.
I genuinely do not know how I could further restrict myself for there to be a single bit of challenge, apart from wearing actively harmful sets or nothing at all.

These are all taken from the Shardmarshal Vargas fight, which is the last fight before you are required to complete Necrom.
Here is every single cast I used from skills to potions and everything in between.

(Abolisher is the mechanic given to you in the fight)

This picture shows my HP during the fight, while actively standing in everything that could hurt me. It also shows that I had a max HP of 17,680. I was a nord with every attribute point put into Magicka.

Here is my damage taken sources, note that not a single attack was blocked.

Full logs for anyone interested ↓
https://www.esologs.com/reports/a:TVdMpafqrmRQYnA2

At this point I don't really even know what to think. I know this won't change anyone's opinion or anything and at this point I don't really care.
I'm just so disappointed honestly... How has this been the acceptable state of the quests for this long? The questing experience isn't easy, it's a joke.

I was under the impression that the fights were really easy only because of my build and overall knowledge of the game and its mechanics, but that just wasn't the case. The enemy won't deal damage even if you give them time to. You don't have to have damage, weaving, healing, shielding, resistances, buffs or anything, literally nothing is required or expected. You have to show up and that's it. I know I was using a skill which heals and deals damage and not all classes have access to it, so some classes might have to use a second key to finish the last fight. At this point might as well have the forced quest companions fight the battle for you.

The visuals were amazing and I absolutely loved how the quest areas looked now that I had more time to look around. The story was solid in my opinion. But all that world building and story telling was completely broken by the encounters. There was no immersion as if we were actually invading a daedric price's realm, as her loyal followers were not even able to break through the shield given to me automatically by a quest NPC, as if that was ever required when my passive HP regen was almost enough to out heal the incoming damage.

I was hoping to be more objective than this, but I just simply cannot. I don't see a single reason why one skill is all you need to breeze through everything. I gave my best attempt at seeing the other side of the argument, but at this point I just cannot. I don't know what would I have to do to make this even a close fight. I could go on and on about how much of a disappointment all of this was, but I think I'm done for now.

Yet, I still have issues with some overland and I been playing since beta. The boss fights get too chaotic sometimes.
I normally only light attack. I use a controller on PC, I also don't use META builds. Just what I think I need. Why I don't do vet dungeons and such.
Sometimes I forget to roll dodge, other times my nerve damage locks certain fingers up at the worst time.
These are things some are not taking into account in my opinion. When I create a new alt I usually only use the skills I start unlocking wearing a mix of white to purple gear that I use from finding across the area.
I have played other MMOs as well.
As I've said when I decided to join this thread, lvling in ESO is almost non-existent due to the cap being 50. But CP is always growing till you unlock what one might need.
The other MMOs I've played through lvling is usually increased which starts power creeping on stats.
I tried that slider in Lotro when it went live. Hardly anyone in the game when I logged in liked it.
I'm about as casual and solo a person can be though when I play.

Part of the problem here is only using light attack and not dodging. Dodge mechanics are often a dice roll in other MMORPGs; I can understand that. Having said that, this wouldn’t really suffice in more complex MMORPGs (e.g., EverQuest, LotRO, WoW).

PS. Some of you are needlessly stuck on the word “priority.” Literal thinking isn’t always your friend. But to alleviate some of your angst over this cruel turn of phrase:

Per M-W:
priority
noun
pri·or·i·ty prī-ˈȯr-ə-tē -ˈär-
plural priorities
Synonyms of priority
1 a (1): the quality or state of being prior
(2): precedence in date or position of publication —used of taxa
b(1): superiority in rank, position, or privilege
(2): legal precedence in exercise of rights over the same subject matter
2: a preferential rating
especially : one that allocates rights to goods and services usually in limited supply
that project has top priority
3: something given or meriting attention before competing alternatives

The third definition is especially apropos.

Renato90085 · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

If I level and gear my character, and set up a good build, the questing zone enemies should become easy to defeat. They should not be a challenge for a well developed character.

agree. i try no armor/buff/passive/food/ trait/cp about combat ,and build only use first/sec skill we can unlock , do goldroad story, mob still a cake ,story boss still seriously injured by my weak light attacks and skills , he dmg in 0 damage reduction 16k health character do 5k heavy attack...
and i think armor not problem , my gold med dps set give me 10k armor,my craft white med armor have 9k armor too...1k armor give me 2% more damage reduction , when boss HA only 5k , it just only up 100 damage

https://youtube.com/watch?v=w1paTdiFXl4

SilverBride · January 23

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

sans-culottes · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

There are also games where the overland is slightly more challenging and yet somehow still manage to attract players.

This focus on the story is fine, but it’s also eliding what most of us have been saying. New characters and players are a bit of a red herring. Things will, of course, present a challenge relative to their inexperience. That’s what experience is a metaphor for. But the idea that these are segregated areas of play and never the twain shall meet focuses very heavily on “what about new players” and related arguments.

In other words, there’a “accessible” and then there’a “notoriously easy.” These don’t necessarily mean the same thing.

PS. Since we’ve focused on parsing words, I’m not sure I’ve come across any explicit design notes or anything stating this. “Basic” is making a host of assumptions. Hmm.

SilverBride · January 23

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

There are also games where the overland is slightly more challenging and yet somehow still manages to attract players.

There are also games, such as Wow, where players out level the questing zones so far that the enemies don't even attack the player any more.

ESO isn't either of these.

Also, slightly more challenging is not what is being requested here.

sans-culottes · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

There are also games where the overland is slightly more challenging and yet somehow still manages to attract players.

There are also games, such as Wow, where players out level the questing zones so far that the enemies don't even attack the player any more.

ESO isn't either of these.

Also, slightly more challenging is not what is being requested here.

That’s comparing apples to oranges, so it’s not really a fair comparison, is it? Frankly, leveled zones would probably make progression more interesting—but that’s just me! I happened to prefer the pre-One Tamriel schema, at least as far as zone progression was concerned. Then again, I’m also a more traditional MMORPG player.

Anyway, given that there have been a range of suggestions re: difficulty, it’s at best misleading to claim that people aren’t asking for various ways of addressing a perceived lack of difficulty. That’s, for instance, the nature of a slider—you can slide it, and that necessarily includes gradations.

Furthermore, since they already said this is something they’re going to “experiment” with, it’d be nice to see them approach this from the perspective of what has worked for other games. Since they mentioned this was something they’re working on,
It’s pretty clear they’ve received sufficient feedback to indicate that this is an issue for many players.

Anecdotally, the triviality of overland gameplay makes it at best a chore to me. This is probably ironic to those of you for whom it’s quite difficult, but maybe we should just agree to disagree.

old_scopie1945 · January 23

rrbreezy wrote:- " it’s also eliding what most of us have been saying"

Reply:-
Here we go again " most of us", pure supposition, it is all hearsay. We have a silent majority that no one knows what their opinion is.

sans-culottes · January 23

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote:- " it’s also eliding what most of us have been saying"

Reply:-
Here we go again " most of us", pure supposition, it is all hearsay. We have a silent majority that no one knows what their opinion is.

Cool! It’s almost like the developers heard someone, right? Like maybe they’ve got evidence. You can say “no”—that’s totally fine. And I’m sorry this challenges your expectations, but reasonable people and organizations base decisions on data.

SilverBride · January 23

rrbreezy wrote: »

Since we’ve focused on parsing words, I’m not sure I’ve come across any explicit design notes or anything stating this. “Basic” is making a host of assumptions. Hmm.

I never claimed the word basic was stated anywhere.

sans-culottes · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

Oh!

SilverBride · January 23

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

Oh!

My using the word basic isn't claiming that ZoS did.

sans-culottes · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

Oh!

My using the word basic isn't claiming that ZoS did.

Almost like we could apply that to others, huh? Anyway, this is getting way off topic. I’m happy to discuss semantics with you privately, but this really isn’t the place for it.

Back to the topic at hand, I should note that the current “experiments” on live—at least thus far—have mostly been unsuccessful. The world bosses on West Weald aren’t so much more challenging as they are annoying. The “difficulty” is artificial—endless invulnerability cycles and so on. Wasn’t a fan of how they implemented Nymics, either.

IA, on the other hand, has been more engaging to me. It’s just a shame the ramping difficulty only applies to semi-randomized arenas instead of more contiguous “zone” or something.

disky · January 24

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote:- " it’s also eliding what most of us have been saying"

Reply:-
Here we go again " most of us", pure supposition, it is all hearsay. We have a silent majority that no one knows what their opinion is.

The most important reason to address this issue with an optional solution.

BananaBender · January 24

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

I've already shown that experience is not required in the slightest, since spamming one button while standing still will do the trick.

ESO's combat is built around two core mechanics, armor/weapon sets and skills. There is a global cooldown (GCD) of one second which applies to every single skill, which means that you can cast a skill once every second. And because ESO doesn't have cooldowns, this means that the game is balanced around the player using a skill once every second. Sets on the other hand give you a massive boost in power once you are wearing all pieces of the same set.
This might seem extremely obvious to anyone experienced, but if you take a look what people who struggle with overland content are saying, it's clear that a lot of players simply don't know, or actively are ignoring one or both of these things.

There is a time and place where people need to learn the very basics of which the game's design is built around. And it's not in the last boss of the latest expansion, it's in the tutorial.
Playing a game and ignoring the core mechanics is like me playing a shooter game and refusing to aim. Sure I can do it, I just can't be expected to get anything done by playing like that.

Another thing that gets brought up is people who have medical conditions which limit their capabilities, and the game should have a work arounds for this. Thankfully we do. The most notable one being Oakensoul, which fits very well for people who struggle or dislike bar swapping or the active one skill a second playstyle. Of course it's not required since Empower can be provided by the Mage's Guild passive. Velothi is a great option for people who don't want to bother with weaving, Ring of the Pale Order is amazing if you don't want to have to focus as much on your health and heals. I could keep on going with this list, because the game offers the players sooo many options to build around their own preferences and capabilities that I don't have the time to go through all of them.
The only thing holding this system back is that it either requires good knowledge of all the sets and how to create builds, or just looking it up online. There should some sort of a guide in game to lead players to a build they find more suitable for their playstyle.

I know there are people who aren't ignoring sets or skills on purpose, but simply because they don't know any better and that's largely on ZOS and their absolute lack of a decent guide for new players. It doesn't explain the importance of sets at all, it highlights light attacking, which becomes obsolite the moment they walk out of the door unless they weaving them with skills.

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

SilverBride · January 24

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

Arunei · January 24

BananaBender wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

For the player to be able to feel like they've improved and gotten stronger, there has to have been a moment when everything wasn't a pushover.

Everything isn't a pushover for everyone, especially new players that have no gear or experience.

Also, no matter how geared or experienced a player is they should not expect overland to be the same difficulty as the content that was developed to provide challenges. Basic Overland enemies are just that... basic... which is a good place for all players to experience the story.

There are World Bosses and Dolmens and Delves and Public Dungeons to add some danger to the world. And Dungeons and Trials and Arenas for a bigger challenge.

I've already shown that experience is not required in the slightest, since spamming one button while standing still will do the trick.

Experience might not be necessary, but the simple fact is the longer the average person plays this game, the more rxperience they tend to gain. The people who actively want to be challenged will especially get better the longer they play. And as these players get stronger and better, things that were a challenge become easier. People learn, get better Skills and Gear, they learn mechanics and how to avoid or counter them.

But not only does gaining experience make things that were once hard easier, it makes what might have been easier to begin with even easier. And that's a big thing the devs will need to take into consideration for whatever they're going to try testing, that regardless of what it is, it needs to account for people getting better. Because otherwise people will get used to it after a while and they won't be challenged by it any longer, and we'll end up right back here again.

sans-culottes · January 24

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride · January 24

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

I know nothing of those games. As far as ESO, in my opinion the best way to keep Overland difficulty at the level many of us have been enjoying for over 8 years now is to not mess with it at all.

[edited to remove quote]

sans-culottes · January 24

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

I know nothing of those games. As far as ESO, in my opinion the best way to keep Overland difficulty at the level many of us have been enjoying for over 8 years now is to not mess with it at all.

Which many of us find trivial—apparently this is, in particular, those of us with broader frames of reference as far as gaming goes.

[edited to remove quote]

Arunei · January 24

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

I know nothing of those games. As far as ESO, in my opinion the best way to keep Overland difficulty at the level many of us have been enjoying for over 8 years now is to not mess with it at all.

Which many of us find trivial—apparently this is, in particular, those of us with broader frames of reference as far as gaming goes.

Just as many of us DON'T find it trivial. We're okay or happy with how it is now because the simple fact many overlook or outright ignore is difficulty and fun are entirely subjective. Person A thinks the game is fun and perfect, Person B is cool with how it is, and Person C finds the game boring and unengaging.

None of these opinions are wrong, but none are right, either. Because there is no right or wrong answer for a subjective topic, yet there are people who seem to think their side of the matter is objective fact rather than subjective opinion.

And I've got a pretty broad frame of reference myself. I've played everything from Mario to Sonic to Pokémon to Conker's Bad Fur Day to Resident Evil to Silent Hill to Digimon to that one Zoids game to Inscryption to Minecraft to The Binding of Isaac (from the original Flash version up to the current Repentance+ beta) and I could keep going but I think I've made my point.

[edited to remove quote]

SilverBride · January 24

I've also played several MMOs and have a broad frame of reference, and I don't find ESO's Overland the least bit trivial.

spartaxoxo · January 24

I think most people probably find overland to be trivially easy. It doesn't mean that everyone will find it easy or that those who struggle aren't valid. But, it was basically designed to be fairly easy for most players.

The difference I think mostly comes from whether or not people think that's a good thing. Many people enjoy easy. Even way back in the days of cheat codes, god mode cheats were pretty popular. Skyrim has a lot of mods to make the game way easier. Many games come with a narrative/easy difficulty nowadays.

Trivial difficulty =/= bad.

Arunei · January 24

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think most people probably find overland to be trivially easy. It doesn't mean that everyone will find it easy or that those who struggle aren't valid. But, it was basically designed to be fairly easy for most players.

The difference I think mostly comes from whether or not people think that's a good thing. Many people enjoy easy. Even way back in the days of cheat codes, god mode cheats were pretty popular. Skyrim has a lot of mods to make the game way easier. Many games come with a narrative/easy difficulty nowadays.

Trivial difficulty =/= bad.

The thing is, like I've mentioned before, most people who are happy with something or at least neutral about it rarely post stating that opinion. We can't really assume most people find the game trivial if as a general trend people only talk about something when they're dissatisfied with it.

Maybe this should be one of those surveys they send out? Put a link to one on the site, add in an Announcement in the launcher and in-game (with the former having a link to wherever the survey is) so people know it's a thing. I say to do it this way since a lot of people don't have their email address on file to get a survey that way.

sans-culottes · January 24

Arunei wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

I know nothing of those games. As far as ESO, in my opinion the best way to keep Overland difficulty at the level many of us have been enjoying for over 8 years now is to not mess with it at all.

Which many of us find trivial—apparently this is, in particular, those of us with broader frames of reference as far as gaming goes.

Just as many of us DON'T find it trivial. We're okay or happy with how it is now because the simple fact many overlook or outright ignore is difficulty and fun are entirely subjective. Person A thinks the game is fun and perfect, Person B is cool with how it is, and Person C finds the game boring and unengaging.

None of these opinions are wrong, but none are right, either. Because there is no right or wrong answer for a subjective topic, yet there are people who seem to think their side of the matter is objective fact rather than subjective opinion.

And I've got a pretty broad frame of reference myself. I've played everything from Mario to Sonic to Pokémon to Conker's Bad Fur Day to Resident Evil to Silent Hill to Digimon to that one Zoids game to Inscryption to Minecraft to The Binding of Isaac (from the original Flash version up to the current Repentance+ beta) and I could keep going but I think I've made my point.

[edited to remove quote]

I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re saying. Yes, naturally, people have different opinions. That’s life. If you’re happy with it being quite easy, then that’s great. I couldn’t be happier for you. But that doesn’t nullify the opinions of those of us who say that an easy overland trivializes the content and makes even simple things, like engaging with stories (e.g., the first one I never bothered to finish—West Weald), monotonous.

PS. I was a bit baffled by this, @old_scopie1945. “Most of us,” of course, means those of us saying we’d like an increase in difficulty—this in the context of not necessarily affecting those only interested in easy story content.

disky wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote:- " it’s also eliding what most of us have been saying"

Reply:-
Here we go again " most of us", pure supposition, it is all hearsay. We have a silent majority that no one knows what their opinion is.

The most important reason to address this issue with an optional solution.

Arunei · January 24

rrbreezy wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

rrbreezy wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

I just don't think such a large part or the game should be balanced around players who are actively (not necessarily intentionally) ignoring the foundations the game's combat is built around.

It's not. There are many geared and experienced players that do not want difficulty in the story, either.

There have been many suggestions that would enable you to keep the overland difficulty lower than that of, I don’t know, the Wind Waker. Actually, that game’s overland was harder, too. [snip]

I know nothing of those games. As far as ESO, in my opinion the best way to keep Overland difficulty at the level many of us have been enjoying for over 8 years now is to not mess with it at all.

Which many of us find trivial—apparently this is, in particular, those of us with broader frames of reference as far as gaming goes.

Just as many of us DON'T find it trivial. We're okay or happy with how it is now because the simple fact many overlook or outright ignore is difficulty and fun are entirely subjective. Person A thinks the game is fun and perfect, Person B is cool with how it is, and Person C finds the game boring and unengaging.

None of these opinions are wrong, but none are right, either. Because there is no right or wrong answer for a subjective topic, yet there are people who seem to think their side of the matter is objective fact rather than subjective opinion.

And I've got a pretty broad frame of reference myself. I've played everything from Mario to Sonic to Pokémon to Conker's Bad Fur Day to Resident Evil to Silent Hill to Digimon to that one Zoids game to Inscryption to Minecraft to The Binding of Isaac (from the original Flash version up to the current Repentance+ beta) and I could keep going but I think I've made my point.

[edited to remove quote]

I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re saying. Yes, naturally, people have different opinions. That’s life. If you’re happy with it being quite easy, then that’s great. I couldn’t be happier for you. But that doesn’t nullify the opinions of those of us who say that an easy overland trivializes the content and makes even simple things, like engaging with stories (e.g., the first one I never bothered to finish—West Weald), monotonous.

I'm not trying to nullify or anything, didn't mean for it to come across like that. My main point is that people on both sides are neither right nor wrong but there are people acting like their side (regardless of which it is) IS right. I've said numerous times I get why people who want harder Overland are bored at best and frustrated at worst. The game is easy for me but not trivial. But I imagine for people the game is too easy to, it's like fishing, where it's a tedious chore where all you do is click click click and there's next to no engagement.

I can see where y'all are coming from. I just wish everyone regardless of side would acknowledge that neither their side nor the other side is 'right'. What we should all be asking for is for ZOS to implement something that doesn't expect one side or the other to deal with gameplay they don't find enjoyable.

ETA I am fricken running on the concept of fumes so if my posts are like...rambling or anything like that. Haven't been able to sleep and some meds I had to take in the middle of the night are just making it worse.