Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

This might be a good point of self reflection, why some are getting called out like that but many aren't. There might a reason for that and it's not just some "toxic vets labeling". Bashing players, creators or telling tales of gatekeeping whilst sitting on a dev shoulder might be referred as that, it's not a dismissive phrase thrown around randomly, mostly.

Streamers "sell themselves". In a figurative way. They are the core of their product, so to say. Viewer experience is always about their personality.

Most "streamers" have a very high opinion of themselves. It is kind of a prerequisite to be a streamer. And be online all the time. To be that exposed you need more than just confidence. You need an ego to be successful.
Most also tend to overestimate their importance and relevence in order to increase viewers. So, if either is being questioned, then obviously they will protect themselves from criticism by going on the offensive and attacking the critic(s) in turn. At that point it is about protecting their "business".

I personally find it a waste of time to watch them play a game while I could play it myself. And I think streamers are experts on leveraging games, not neccessarily experts for the game. With notable exceptions, of course.

RomanRex wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

This might be a good point of self reflection, why some are getting called out like that but many aren't. There might a reason for that and it's not just some "toxic vets labeling". Bashing players, creators or telling tales of gatekeeping whilst sitting on a dev shoulder might be referred as that, it's not a dismissive phrase thrown around randomly, mostly.

My use of “toxic positivity” applies to ZOS and those who defend them, like many on the stream team.

When there are clear and obvious issues, and you choose to completely ignore them while pretending everything is great, that is the essence of toxic positivity.

What is an issue for one player may not be an issue for another. But if players don't jump on the bandwagon and complain along with them they are called toxic, whether they have an issue with ZoS or not.

SilverBride wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

This might be a good point of self reflection, why some are getting called out like that but many aren't. There might a reason for that and it's not just some "toxic vets labeling". Bashing players, creators or telling tales of gatekeeping whilst sitting on a dev shoulder might be referred as that, it's not a dismissive phrase thrown around randomly, mostly.

My use of “toxic positivity” applies to ZOS and those who defend them, like many on the stream team.

When there are clear and obvious issues, and you choose to completely ignore them while pretending everything is great, that is the essence of toxic positivity.

What is an issue for one player may not be an issue for another. But if players don't jump on the bandwagon and complain along with them they are called toxic, whether they have an issue with ZoS or not.

Not from me they won’t. I don’t have problems when independent creators express love for ESO. I also love lots about it.

I get tired of the relentless optimism from ZOS and their carefully curated stream team, which completely sidesteps the game’s real problems.

It’s all about the vibes—“Don’t complain, that’s bad vibes… we kick complainers out.” What the community really needs are some high-profile voices willing to call out issues and drive meaningful change.

ZOS seems more focused on maintaining a facade of positivity than delivering honesty. They only highlight the “good” news or give incomplete information rather than addressing concerns head-on.

For instance, during yesterday’s stream, no one mentioned that you have to have ESO+ for access to the new dungeons—a huge gatekeeping mechanism for new content. Instead, that detail was buried on a website, left for players to dig up themselves.

SilverBride wrote: »

[snip]

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

[snip]

To be fair, part of the problem lies with the people running the show. After 10 years, so many of the same faces are still around, giving us the same tired lip service for the same unresolved issues.

I’m absolutely exhausted with the communications team. We don’t need more carefully curated Q&As or feedback opportunities that lead nowhere. Time and time again, it feels like our concerns either fall on deaf ears or result in “solutions” that are completely out of touch or unsustainable. At this point, it’s just frustrating.

[edited to remove quote]

Stamicka wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

I’m someone who uses those terms even here on the forums. I don’t use “toxic casual” to describe anybody who enjoys the game, it’s something very specific.

I think it’s great when someone is enjoying the game. It becomes toxic positivity when the people who are enjoying the game act like everybody else should be too

Sorry that isn't true many streamers and Forum users put the toxic positivity label on anyone who isn't bashing the game 24/7 (Heck they called Jackeclips Toxic positive) it is also used as a cudgel to shut down opposing viewpoints...in fact the term has been overused and misused so much that it's really lost all meaning... I watched a stream last week and the kid used Toxic Positive 32 times in 40 minute's

I don't like what you just said ergo "You're a Toxic Positive/Casual

It's also used to "Other" a certain segment of the community...mods are noticing the speech is not only being moderated here they have started to moderate that speech on some of the Discords and Reddits

sarahthes wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casuals are often toxically positive, but display some other behaviors too. There’s often an “anti elite” mentality that these people have. They hate the meta just because it’s meta, they hate content creators for pushing the “meta”, and they often dislike people who play the game with a more competitive attitude. These are the types of people who always feel the need to state that they are a casual and that no one can tell them how to play (most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play or forcing anything on them at all).

None of this comes from nowhere. This comes from how these players are treated by the competitive community.

The "anti-elite" mentality comes from the fact that people who aren't part of that group or playstyle are often shunned or ridiculed by the "elite" community.

Nobody hates the meta because it's meta. They hate it specifically because content creators push so hard for it. And they don't hate content creators pushing it just for the sake of pushing it. They hate it because content creators perpetuate a narrative that this narrative is absolutely required to even participate in any level of end game content. This is a false narrative that has significantly negative impacts on the overall game community.

No one should be telling "casuals" how to play. And yes, they absolutely are. I have seen it on YouTube videos, in forums, Facebook groups, subreddits, in game chat, and even dungeons and trials themselves. The claim that "most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play" is entirely false.

Stamicka wrote: »

They often complain that the “elite” won’t let them into their groups, but never take the time to improve their DPS. In fact, trying to help a toxic casual is often met with hostility.

"Trying to help" is often met with hostility because most of the time it is unsolicited. I don't want random people telling me what sets I should be wearing, what skills should be on my bar, my stat and CP distribution, etc. That is up to me to decide, not anyone else, and I can tell you that 100% of the "help" I have felt resentful of has been unsolicited "advice" that I didn't want.

Nobody is complaining about not being let into the "elite" groups. People are complaining because the "elite" and score pushers take that attitude into things like PUG dungeons for pledges and things like that, and harass, kick, and otherwise bother players that aren't adhering to their perceived "meta". "Oh that doesn't happen"... yes it does. I have multiple stories of it happening to me and guildmates I was grouped with.

Stamicka wrote: »

At the end of the day, if you want to feel special by not using “meta gear” more power to you. It’s not my problem and I don’t care. It’s often not as effective as other options, but suit yourself. It starts to get toxic when these people villainize content creators and others for optimizing and trying to play the game to the best of their ability. It’s pretty toxic to dismiss other peoples opinions because it doesn’t impact you. Lastly, it’s toxic to demonize well meaning people who are trying to help by calling them something along the lines of a “meta chasing loser”.

Not everyone is playing to have the "most effective options" and simply don't care if other methods are more "efficient".

Those "well meaning people" who are being demonized are more often than not doing so unasked. The people receiving the "advice" don't want it, and constantly being told that you should be doing something different is incredibly frustrated. Those behaviors absolutely deserve to be demonized.

Nobody is trying to "feel special" by not using "meta gear". They just simply want to be left alone to play their own characters their own way without other players shoving their opinions on how the character should be played down their throats. Content creators absolutely deserve to be villainized for how they perpetuate that culture and narrative.

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casual isn’t really a term used lightly, but it definitely encompasses a lot of behaviors that I see all the time here in the forums.

"Toxic casual" is a term used when people push back against the unsolicited advice and false narratives surrounding "meta" and its necessity in end game content. "Toxic casual" is a term used when people feel slighted because other players don't care in the slightest about their "metas" or their score pushing.

Toxic casual simply isn't a thing.

Toxic casual and toxic positivity absolutely are real things.

Toxic positivity is absolutely a real thing. I never claimed otherwise.

Toxic casual is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic elite playing victim because their behaviors are seeing pushback and consequence.

To flip the script here, tell me if this statement makes sense:

"Toxic elite is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic casual playing victim because their behaviors are seeing push back and consequences."

It does not make sense, because casuals are just playing the game. They aren't the ones creating YouTube videos proclaiming they need to be a certain DPS level just to participate in content. They aren't the ones offering unsolicited advice to players telling them what sets they should be using and what stat distribution to have. They aren't the ones kicking players from PUG groups for having the wrong skills slotted or equipping the wrong set. There's no behavior from the casual crowd that the elite crowd needs to push back against. The elite crowd is the one who has started the whole thing with the standards they have imposed on the game's community as a whole.

I will give you a non-forum example of toxic casual.

I was invited to a small guild discord. Someone posted in a 'help' channel asking for build help. I offered some advice, based on my experience. A third party came in and ranted about how metas are toxic, how the build(s) I suggested only apply to trifectas, how they're not helpful for the common player... pretty much the epitome of toxic casual, dismissing the endgame player's suggestions.

My crime? Suggesting ice/ice tanking for vet trials, because it helps with brittle uptimes and because it can be harder to learn to do correctly, but will be expected if they progress to a higher level.

Thanks for sharing your example, but I think this might be more about a difference in perspective than outright "toxic casual" behavior.

Your advice about ice/ice tanking for vet trials makes total sense for someone looking to get into higher-level content. Brittle uptime and advanced mechanics are definitely important at that stage. But it sounds like the third person might’ve been looking at it from a more casual player’s perspective, thinking your advice was too focused on endgame and not as helpful for someone just starting out.

It’s not really “toxic” to dismiss advice if they genuinely think it’s not useful for the person asking—they just might not see the bigger picture or understand the context of what you were suggesting. In the end, it’s more about communicating what kind of help the person actually wants or needs.

That has been my whole point about this... the term Toxic Casual/Toxic Positive is just there to slap people down and other them

I don't agree with you ergo you are a Toxic Casual

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casuals are often toxically positive, but display some other behaviors too. There’s often an “anti elite” mentality that these people have. They hate the meta just because it’s meta, they hate content creators for pushing the “meta”, and they often dislike people who play the game with a more competitive attitude. These are the types of people who always feel the need to state that they are a casual and that no one can tell them how to play (most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play or forcing anything on them at all).

None of this comes from nowhere. This comes from how these players are treated by the competitive community.

The "anti-elite" mentality comes from the fact that people who aren't part of that group or playstyle are often shunned or ridiculed by the "elite" community.

Nobody hates the meta because it's meta. They hate it specifically because content creators push so hard for it. And they don't hate content creators pushing it just for the sake of pushing it. They hate it because content creators perpetuate a narrative that this narrative is absolutely required to even participate in any level of end game content. This is a false narrative that has significantly negative impacts on the overall game community.

No one should be telling "casuals" how to play. And yes, they absolutely are. I have seen it on YouTube videos, in forums, Facebook groups, subreddits, in game chat, and even dungeons and trials themselves. The claim that "most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play" is entirely false.

Stamicka wrote: »

They often complain that the “elite” won’t let them into their groups, but never take the time to improve their DPS. In fact, trying to help a toxic casual is often met with hostility.

"Trying to help" is often met with hostility because most of the time it is unsolicited. I don't want random people telling me what sets I should be wearing, what skills should be on my bar, my stat and CP distribution, etc. That is up to me to decide, not anyone else, and I can tell you that 100% of the "help" I have felt resentful of has been unsolicited "advice" that I didn't want.

Nobody is complaining about not being let into the "elite" groups. People are complaining because the "elite" and score pushers take that attitude into things like PUG dungeons for pledges and things like that, and harass, kick, and otherwise bother players that aren't adhering to their perceived "meta". "Oh that doesn't happen"... yes it does. I have multiple stories of it happening to me and guildmates I was grouped with.

Stamicka wrote: »

At the end of the day, if you want to feel special by not using “meta gear” more power to you. It’s not my problem and I don’t care. It’s often not as effective as other options, but suit yourself. It starts to get toxic when these people villainize content creators and others for optimizing and trying to play the game to the best of their ability. It’s pretty toxic to dismiss other peoples opinions because it doesn’t impact you. Lastly, it’s toxic to demonize well meaning people who are trying to help by calling them something along the lines of a “meta chasing loser”.

Not everyone is playing to have the "most effective options" and simply don't care if other methods are more "efficient".

Those "well meaning people" who are being demonized are more often than not doing so unasked. The people receiving the "advice" don't want it, and constantly being told that you should be doing something different is incredibly frustrated. Those behaviors absolutely deserve to be demonized.

Nobody is trying to "feel special" by not using "meta gear". They just simply want to be left alone to play their own characters their own way without other players shoving their opinions on how the character should be played down their throats. Content creators absolutely deserve to be villainized for how they perpetuate that culture and narrative.

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casual isn’t really a term used lightly, but it definitely encompasses a lot of behaviors that I see all the time here in the forums.

"Toxic casual" is a term used when people push back against the unsolicited advice and false narratives surrounding "meta" and its necessity in end game content. "Toxic casual" is a term used when people feel slighted because other players don't care in the slightest about their "metas" or their score pushing.

Toxic casual simply isn't a thing.

Toxic casual and toxic positivity absolutely are real things.

Toxic positivity is absolutely a real thing. I never claimed otherwise.

Toxic casual is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic elite playing victim because their behaviors are seeing pushback and consequence.

To flip the script here, tell me if this statement makes sense:

"Toxic elite is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic casual playing victim because their behaviors are seeing push back and consequences."

It does not make sense, because casuals are just playing the game. They aren't the ones creating YouTube videos proclaiming they need to be a certain DPS level just to participate in content. They aren't the ones offering unsolicited advice to players telling them what sets they should be using and what stat distribution to have. They aren't the ones kicking players from PUG groups for having the wrong skills slotted or equipping the wrong set. There's no behavior from the casual crowd that the elite crowd needs to push back against. The elite crowd is the one who has started the whole thing with the standards they have imposed on the game's community as a whole.

I will give you a non-forum example of toxic casual.

I was invited to a small guild discord. Someone posted in a 'help' channel asking for build help. I offered some advice, based on my experience. A third party came in and ranted about how metas are toxic, how the build(s) I suggested only apply to trifectas, how they're not helpful for the common player... pretty much the epitome of toxic casual, dismissing the endgame player's suggestions.

My crime? Suggesting ice/ice tanking for vet trials, because it helps with brittle uptimes and because it can be harder to learn to do correctly, but will be expected if they progress to a higher level.

Thanks for sharing your example, but I think this might be more about a difference in perspective than outright "toxic casual" behavior.

Your advice about ice/ice tanking for vet trials makes total sense for someone looking to get into higher-level content. Brittle uptime and advanced mechanics are definitely important at that stage. But it sounds like the third person might’ve been looking at it from a more casual player’s perspective, thinking your advice was too focused on endgame and not as helpful for someone just starting out.

It’s not really “toxic” to dismiss advice if they genuinely think it’s not useful for the person asking—they just might not see the bigger picture or understand the context of what you were suggesting. In the end, it’s more about communicating what kind of help the person actually wants or needs.

That has been my whole point about this... the term Toxic Casual/Toxic Positive is just there to slap people down and other them

I don't agree with you ergo you are a Toxic Casual

It was not what they said, but how they said it, that made it toxic.

sarahthes wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casuals are often toxically positive, but display some other behaviors too. There’s often an “anti elite” mentality that these people have. They hate the meta just because it’s meta, they hate content creators for pushing the “meta”, and they often dislike people who play the game with a more competitive attitude. These are the types of people who always feel the need to state that they are a casual and that no one can tell them how to play (most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play or forcing anything on them at all).

None of this comes from nowhere. This comes from how these players are treated by the competitive community.

The "anti-elite" mentality comes from the fact that people who aren't part of that group or playstyle are often shunned or ridiculed by the "elite" community.

Nobody hates the meta because it's meta. They hate it specifically because content creators push so hard for it. And they don't hate content creators pushing it just for the sake of pushing it. They hate it because content creators perpetuate a narrative that this narrative is absolutely required to even participate in any level of end game content. This is a false narrative that has significantly negative impacts on the overall game community.

No one should be telling "casuals" how to play. And yes, they absolutely are. I have seen it on YouTube videos, in forums, Facebook groups, subreddits, in game chat, and even dungeons and trials themselves. The claim that "most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play" is entirely false.

Stamicka wrote: »

They often complain that the “elite” won’t let them into their groups, but never take the time to improve their DPS. In fact, trying to help a toxic casual is often met with hostility.

"Trying to help" is often met with hostility because most of the time it is unsolicited. I don't want random people telling me what sets I should be wearing, what skills should be on my bar, my stat and CP distribution, etc. That is up to me to decide, not anyone else, and I can tell you that 100% of the "help" I have felt resentful of has been unsolicited "advice" that I didn't want.

Nobody is complaining about not being let into the "elite" groups. People are complaining because the "elite" and score pushers take that attitude into things like PUG dungeons for pledges and things like that, and harass, kick, and otherwise bother players that aren't adhering to their perceived "meta". "Oh that doesn't happen"... yes it does. I have multiple stories of it happening to me and guildmates I was grouped with.

Stamicka wrote: »

At the end of the day, if you want to feel special by not using “meta gear” more power to you. It’s not my problem and I don’t care. It’s often not as effective as other options, but suit yourself. It starts to get toxic when these people villainize content creators and others for optimizing and trying to play the game to the best of their ability. It’s pretty toxic to dismiss other peoples opinions because it doesn’t impact you. Lastly, it’s toxic to demonize well meaning people who are trying to help by calling them something along the lines of a “meta chasing loser”.

Not everyone is playing to have the "most effective options" and simply don't care if other methods are more "efficient".

Those "well meaning people" who are being demonized are more often than not doing so unasked. The people receiving the "advice" don't want it, and constantly being told that you should be doing something different is incredibly frustrated. Those behaviors absolutely deserve to be demonized.

Nobody is trying to "feel special" by not using "meta gear". They just simply want to be left alone to play their own characters their own way without other players shoving their opinions on how the character should be played down their throats. Content creators absolutely deserve to be villainized for how they perpetuate that culture and narrative.

Stamicka wrote: »

Toxic casual isn’t really a term used lightly, but it definitely encompasses a lot of behaviors that I see all the time here in the forums.

"Toxic casual" is a term used when people push back against the unsolicited advice and false narratives surrounding "meta" and its necessity in end game content. "Toxic casual" is a term used when people feel slighted because other players don't care in the slightest about their "metas" or their score pushing.

Toxic casual simply isn't a thing.

Toxic casual and toxic positivity absolutely are real things.

Toxic positivity is absolutely a real thing. I never claimed otherwise.

Toxic casual is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic elite playing victim because their behaviors are seeing pushback and consequence.

To flip the script here, tell me if this statement makes sense:

"Toxic elite is not a real thing, and is simply the toxic casual playing victim because their behaviors are seeing push back and consequences."

It does not make sense, because casuals are just playing the game. They aren't the ones creating YouTube videos proclaiming they need to be a certain DPS level just to participate in content. They aren't the ones offering unsolicited advice to players telling them what sets they should be using and what stat distribution to have. They aren't the ones kicking players from PUG groups for having the wrong skills slotted or equipping the wrong set. There's no behavior from the casual crowd that the elite crowd needs to push back against. The elite crowd is the one who has started the whole thing with the standards they have imposed on the game's community as a whole.

I will give you a non-forum example of toxic casual.

I was invited to a small guild discord. Someone posted in a 'help' channel asking for build help. I offered some advice, based on my experience. A third party came in and ranted about how metas are toxic, how the build(s) I suggested only apply to trifectas, how they're not helpful for the common player... pretty much the epitome of toxic casual, dismissing the endgame player's suggestions.

My crime? Suggesting ice/ice tanking for vet trials, because it helps with brittle uptimes and because it can be harder to learn to do correctly, but will be expected if they progress to a higher level.

Thanks for sharing your example, but I think this might be more about a difference in perspective than outright "toxic casual" behavior.

Your advice about ice/ice tanking for vet trials makes total sense for someone looking to get into higher-level content. Brittle uptime and advanced mechanics are definitely important at that stage. But it sounds like the third person might’ve been looking at it from a more casual player’s perspective, thinking your advice was too focused on endgame and not as helpful for someone just starting out.

It’s not really “toxic” to dismiss advice if they genuinely think it’s not useful for the person asking—they just might not see the bigger picture or understand the context of what you were suggesting. In the end, it’s more about communicating what kind of help the person actually wants or needs.

That has been my whole point about this... the term Toxic Casual/Toxic Positive is just there to slap people down and other them

I don't agree with you ergo you are a Toxic Casual

It was not what they said, but how they said it, that made it toxic.

If you go by tone...nearly everything you say can be considered toxic in a certain light...I mean if they said it really over the top (which in rereading it would have been hilarious) just laugh and move on....

JustLovely wrote: »

Not true.

The hard core casuals have been pushing for the removal Cyrodil from the game and have it turned into PvE zone for years.

I have been a part of ESO and its community since beta, and I have never seen any legitimate or widespread movement to remove Cyrodiil from the game or turn it into a PVE zone. There may be individuals who do that, but it is not a movement with any legitimacy. What I have seen is players who feel like they shouldn't have to PVP in zones like Cyrodiil and be able to toggle PVE status so they can get Cyrodiil zone rewards like skyshards, which is different from wanting to turn Cyrodiil into a PVE zone. I would disagree with that, and am of the belief that if you want rewards from a zone, then you need to play by that zone's rules, and that if you want Cyrodiil rewards, you need to be open to PVP. I would not call the opinion toxic, however, as it is their opinion of what they'd like to see in game.

JustLovely wrote: »

The casuals complain all the time about how content is too hard when it's not, they just need a better build and to learn mechanics.

What content is said to be "too hard"? There is a whole entire years long running thread dedicated to overland being too easy with certain individuals feeling that the game is not too easy, and while I disagree with their assessment I would not say that they are toxic simply because they have a different opinion.

Dungeons and trials too hard? I mean, both of those have normal and vet settings, so that's already addressed.

Again, as someone who is active in the ESO community since beta - in game, forums, Facebook groups, subreddits, guilds, etc. I've never heard any sort of widespread opinion about ESO being too hard. I'm not saying you haven't experienced it, but I don't think it's any sort of widespread behavior of "toxic casuals"

JustLovely wrote: »

The vet end game players are the players who know the game the best, so when they point out something that is wrong with the combat system their comments have merit in most cases, but casual players line up to tell them how they are wrong even though the casual player is not nearly as familiar with the game as the vet player is.

Vet end game players know our part of the game best (and yes... possessive "our" because contrary to assumptions made previously in this thread, I am a vet end game player. Guild trial tank that tanks nearly exclusively vet content, so I know first hand exactly what's being discussed when things like "metas" are being talked about), and we can identify issues with game systems that impact our specific mode of playing, but those issues that we face do not impact everyone else the same way they do us, and won't hold the same importance to other players. Casual players having a different opinion about the game's pressing issues, or not finding issue with certain things, does not make them toxic.

JustLovely wrote: »

Toxic casual absolutely is a real phenomenon in MMO's. At the same time it IS NOT toxic to expect a player to meet certain dps thresholds before being welcome in a vet trial.

Sure, but nowhere in my post did I mention preformed trial groups. People have a right to play with who they want to play with, and if a group is trying to score push or leaderboard push, then they absolutely have the right to form their own group with their own players. In fact, I don't even know why a casual player would want to join a group like that, because it's not what the casual player is going to want to do.

I think what's more likely - and this is said from experience - that the toxicity revolves around the narrative that you need XYZ set or 75k+ DPS just to do vet content, and when players express interest in wanting to do that content, they are told that they can't do it without proving their DPS numbers or without being told that they need to be wearing XYZ set. That stuff isn't necessary. Meta sets are not necessary to complete any content in this game. Fully optimized DPS is not necessary to complete any content in this game. And yet people are discouraged from even setting foot in a vet trial because they don't have 75k - 80k DPS or the right sets. That is the toxic behavior. And I know it exists because 1. I dealt with it while I was still learning how to handle vet content and 2. my guild is filled with people who were scared of doing vet trials for no other reason than the narratives and being told that they can't do it, and then they finally come along with us and get their clear and have a good time and realize how toxic that narrative was.

JustLovely wrote: »

It IS NOT toxic to give advice to another player who is obviously struggling with a weak build or rotation.

It is when that advice is unsolicited and not asked for. They may be doing just fine with their "weak" build or rotation and not particularly care about pumping out max #'s.

JustLovely wrote: »

Nobody is imposing standard on the game community as a whole.

Sure there are. I just gave tons of examples of it happening. If I publicly announced what sets I vet tank in, I would likely get swarmed with a slew of negative responses telling me about how I shouldn't be tanking that way, I'm not tanking properly, I can't possibly have the clears (that I actually have), or that I'm just being carried by my guild. This also isn't speculation. It has actually happened. I have had people tell me that my guild should be embarrassed for letting me tank (despite the fact that I have all the "meta" sets available to me, and my guild actually prefers that I don't use them, not just because my guild appreciates a variety of ways to tackle the content, but also because they prefer my performance as a tank in the sets that I have curated for myself and my own playstyle), I've had PUG's drop out of vet DLC dungeon runs simply because I wasn't using the skills on my bar they wanted me to run (and yet my group still got the speedrun achievements even without the person and without the preferred skills), I've had PUG's criticize myself and my group for DPS output - while constantly lying on the floor dead, and the group functioning much more smoothly once they left. These are just a few of the countless experiences I have with the toxic elites absolutely imposing a standard on the game community as a whole.

JustLovely wrote: »

And it's totally reasonable to expect players to meet certain performance thresholds prior to being welcome in a raid group where everyone has a job to do and if one person misses their mark the whole group wipes.

Sure. So play in your groups, and let those who don't want to play up to your standards do their own thing without constant unsolicited advice, constant criticism of their playstyle, build, or DPS output, and constantly telling them that they need to change how they play if they want to do content.

Stamicka wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

I’m someone who uses those terms even here on the forums. I don’t use “toxic casual” to describe anybody who enjoys the game, it’s something very specific.

I think it’s great when someone is enjoying the game. It becomes toxic positivity when the people who are enjoying the game act like everybody else should be too. These types of people often say that anybody who is giving negative feedback is “whining”, or everyone is too “negative” because ESO is actually great. They act like other people aren’t allowed to share their criticisms of the game or have an opinion unless it’s a positive one. By behaving like this, they are dismissing and not taking into account the experience of others which is pretty toxic if you ask me.

Toxic casuals are often toxically positive, but display some other behaviors too. There’s often an “anti elite” mentality that these people have. They hate the meta just because it’s meta, they hate content creators for pushing the “meta”, and they often dislike people who play the game with a more competitive attitude. These are the types of people who always feel the need to state that they are a casual and that no one can tell them how to play (most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play or forcing anything on them at all).

They often complain that the “elite” won’t let them into their groups, but never take the time to improve their DPS. In fact, trying to help a toxic casual is often met with hostility.

At the end of the day, if you want to feel special by not using “meta gear” more power to you. It’s not my problem and I don’t care. It’s often not as effective as other options, but suit yourself. It starts to get toxic when these people villainize content creators and others for optimizing and trying to play the game to the best of their ability. It’s pretty toxic to dismiss other peoples opinions because it doesn’t impact you. Lastly, it’s toxic to demonize well meaning people who are trying to help by calling them something along the lines of a “meta chasing loser”.

Toxic casual isn’t really a term used lightly, but it definitely encompasses a lot of behaviors that I see all the time here in the forums.

I was thinking about this topic the other day, and I believe it can be considered a form of trolling. Usually trolling is being negative, but in this case unconditional positivity could be the same, especially if someone continues to post about it repeatedly in threads where others are trying to highlight a real problem.

I think a lot of people underestimate how much it takes to provide good feedback.
Back when I worked in marketing, we would call it actionable feedback. Feedback one can act on.

An opinion is all well and good. But it isnt feedback.

Franchise408 wrote: »

Sure. So play in your groups, and let those who don't want to play up to your standards do their own thing without constant unsolicited advice, constant criticism of their playstyle, build, or DPS output, and constantly telling them that they need to change how they play if they want to do content.

A lot of what is called toxic casual is simply viewing the game differently to endgame players and therefore finding different things to be the main priority issues or not agreeing that an idea from an endgame player is great.

Stamicka wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Sure, but nowhere in my post did I mention preformed trial groups. People have a right to play with who they want to play with, and if a group is trying to score push or leaderboard push, then they absolutely have the right to form their own group with their own players.

I think what's more likely - and this is said from experience - that the toxicity revolves around the narrative that you need XYZ set or 75k+ DPS just to do vet content, and when players express interest in wanting to do that content, they are told that they can't do it without proving their DPS numbers or without being told that they need to be wearing XYZ set.

So you agree that it is ok for a trial group to have standards. Outside of endgame group requirements, where are you seeing players get told that they need 75k DPS to do vet content? I have genuinely never seen this narrative outside of the context of a raid group asking members to have a certain amount of DPS.

People get told they need 75k for dungeons, for one. I also see it in pugs for regular vet trial clears of older content where 75k is complete over kill. I've seen Vet Hel Ra have that requirement. And when people ask if that's what needed for a clear, they are told yes, even though that is not true. It might be what that group lead wants but it's not what is required by the content.

ETA

RomanRex wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

imagine telling people to withhold criticism of a game they love and want to continue doing so lmao

Criticize all you want, just stop labeling everyone who enjoys the game a Toxic positive or a Toxic Casual

It's degrading speech and there should be no place for it on these forums

I’m someone who uses those terms even here on the forums. I don’t use “toxic casual” to describe anybody who enjoys the game, it’s something very specific.

I think it’s great when someone is enjoying the game. It becomes toxic positivity when the people who are enjoying the game act like everybody else should be too. These types of people often say that anybody who is giving negative feedback is “whining”, or everyone is too “negative” because ESO is actually great. They act like other people aren’t allowed to share their criticisms of the game or have an opinion unless it’s a positive one. By behaving like this, they are dismissing and not taking into account the experience of others which is pretty toxic if you ask me.

Toxic casuals are often toxically positive, but display some other behaviors too. There’s often an “anti elite” mentality that these people have. They hate the meta just because it’s meta, they hate content creators for pushing the “meta”, and they often dislike people who play the game with a more competitive attitude. These are the types of people who always feel the need to state that they are a casual and that no one can tell them how to play (most of the time literally no one is telling them how to play or forcing anything on them at all).

They often complain that the “elite” won’t let them into their groups, but never take the time to improve their DPS. In fact, trying to help a toxic casual is often met with hostility.

At the end of the day, if you want to feel special by not using “meta gear” more power to you. It’s not my problem and I don’t care. It’s often not as effective as other options, but suit yourself. It starts to get toxic when these people villainize content creators and others for optimizing and trying to play the game to the best of their ability. It’s pretty toxic to dismiss other peoples opinions because it doesn’t impact you. Lastly, it’s toxic to demonize well meaning people who are trying to help by calling them something along the lines of a “meta chasing loser”.

Toxic casual isn’t really a term used lightly, but it definitely encompasses a lot of behaviors that I see all the time here in the forums.

I was thinking about this topic the other day, and I believe it can be considered a form of trolling. Usually trolling is being negative, but in this case unconditional positivity could be the same, especially if someone continues to post about it repeatedly in threads where others are trying to highlight a real problem.

It’s frustrating when certain individuals consistently defend every decision, even when it clearly harms the broader player base. Constructive criticism is vital for any community, especially when the game’s leadership has struggled to provide compelling reasons for continued investment.

Acknowledging past successes is important, but we also need to evaluate the current direction critically. Blindly supporting every change (as some of the commenters in this thread have done often) undermines genuine feedback and discourages improvements that would benefit the players. Constructive critics are essential to holding leadership accountable and pushing for a better experience for everyone.

It may be their genuine feedback that they are happy with the current state of the game. The devs need to know what is working just as much as what isn't. They take feedback from both camps and come up with solutions that attempt to address concerns raised without alienating those who already enjoy the game.

RomanRex wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

It’s frustrating when certain individuals consistently defend every decision, even when it clearly harms the broader player base.

Not all players agree that every decision harms the broader player base.

When a player posts that their experience has been positive, it in no way negates another players negative experience. We can all give our feedback as individuals, and our personal views do not diminish another player's experience.

It’s frustrating to see posts consistently derailed by certain users who dismiss others’ concerns simply because they don’t share the same experience.

Instead of engaging in constructive discussion, they seem to focus solely on defending ZOS or countering someone’s point without offering anything meaningful to the conversation. When you see the same names repeatedly doing this, it becomes clear that their input adds little value beyond being argumentative.

🤔

I understand what you are saying but I disagree that defending ZoS is just being argumentive.

One reason I defend ZoS is because I truly think they are doing what they feel is right for the game. It bothers me to see them bashed, which happens often, and I feel the need to defend them from some of the very harsh words directed at them.

I've not agreed with every decision, and have spoken out against a few changes. But it's hard for me to see them being accused of things like not caring, or not listening for example, and not speak up.

Constructive feedback can address the player's concerns without bashing and accusations.

First, I would suggest Nefas was unique amongst content creators as he has a broad and deep knowledge of the game. I was unaware that Zenimax took action to embarrass him and would suggest it was a big mistake if they did.

With that, Being a content streamer does not mean the person has a more profound knowledge of the game. Most players experience a small portion of the game. It is what interests them. Most streamers fall into this category. Stirring the pot creates interest; at the end of the day, streamers make money from how many watch and subscribe to them. Even if they are not doing it for that purpose, they could be blowing off steam. So, there is no reason why Zenimax would listen to content creators more than us.

I do recall Zenimax had a class expert group of some sort. I expect it was people who knew the mechanics in the game. For some reason, Zenimax abandoned that program before I started playing ESO. Having a focus group would be a good idea, making me wonder where Zenimax gets its feedback today.