Streamers and Zos

EvilGoatKing

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

It’s frustrating when certain individuals consistently defend every decision, even when it clearly harms the broader player base.

Not all players agree that every decision harms the broader player base.

When a player posts that their experience has been positive, it in no way negates another players negative experience. We can all give our feedback as individuals, and our personal views do not diminish another player's experience.

It’s frustrating to see posts consistently derailed by certain users who dismiss others’ concerns simply because they don’t share the same experience.

Instead of engaging in constructive discussion, they seem to focus solely on defending ZOS or countering someone’s point without offering anything meaningful to the conversation. When you see the same names repeatedly doing this, it becomes clear that their input adds little value beyond being argumentative.

🤔

This is a huge problem on this forum. No doubt about it. It's always the same handful or less of posters too.

In my opinion, if this forum didn't have a huge problem of posters who attack everything that ZOS says or does, there wouldn't be any need for other posters to object to that type of behavior. And it doesn't take much time or effort to glance through the threads in this forum to see which of those two groups is larger and louder than the other. And if anyone dares to make an 'I love this game" thread, hoo boy, watch out, they're going to be attacked for it.

No. ZOS has always had the power to fix this. They have asked for years how to effectively communicate but then never listen so people get frustrated and it creates the environment we have now.

Amottica

Toanis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

First, I would suggest Nefas was unique amongst content creators as he has a broad and deep knowledge of the game. I was unaware that Zenimax took action to embarrass him and would suggest it was a big mistake if they did.

If you get embarassed when someone has to tell you three times that filming/streaming isn't allowed at their event, maybe you should comply the first time. Especially when there already were complaints about you filming at a previous event.

In the end, for any company we are mainly worth what we are willing to pay, and for most of us that's 220 bucks per year for a sub and an expansion. MMOs are special in that we as the players are also part of the product, and some "quality control" is neccessary. You may get some perks as a content creator when you're good advertisement for the game's community, that doesn't mean you need to be a yes-man and ignore any issues, just generally showing your audience that it's fun to play.

When your bubble is the sweatiest part of the PVE endgame community and the wider audience mainly knows you from your videos critizising the game and it's catering to "Toxic Casuals", don't expect to be handled with kid gloves, when you show up with a professional streaming kit on an event for casuals.

LOL, I guess it is really on Zenimax for inviting back the second time. Was not aware that he was not heeding their requests.

Also, I never suggested the streamers should be, yes, men/women. I was just pointing out that most of them have a limited experience in ESO like many of the everyday players. Their opinions are not any more valuable than those of the rest of us.

Some know what they are talking about because they have tested the mechanics. There was some rogue guy who used to stream. When he said something, you knew it was accurate vs just raging against the machine. He discovered the issue behind some broken mechanics vs just raging about it. iirc, he started working for Zenimax which I expect was due to his profound understanding of combat mechanics.

Nihilr

I notice a few things:
• Successful streamers are good at playing the meta.
• When the Devs change the meta to help the majority base of players (to retain casual gamers as we are more in numbers which is more funding for them)--the streamers get upset most times unless they also benefit.
(So this translates to, "unless I get something out of it, no one should get anything, or I will whine and threaten to leave the game to get what I want.")

It's like when something is exploited, the exploiters will claim 'This isn't an exploit, it's a feature and if you fix it, you are taking away content I paid for instead of adding content to compensate for it!" THAT is toxic. It's these types of players that hold the game hostage from becoming the best it can be for everyone.

Someone else mentioned there are solo players here for the lore/story/quests/housing/etc (like my husband and I). And there are players here for the MMO experience. But the biggest irony is that it's the MMO players (playing to group together) can't agree the most on changes that help everybody have a better experience because they are already set in their current ways that let them dominate end-game content to feel superiority and ego. The *selfish and loud* aggressives are always the problem in any community.

Sure some streamers teach others how to play like them, but that feeds their ego and they will resist changes because status quo keeps them on top and that's why many resisted U35 and stillllll moan about it. I see this complaining as equivalent as if (hypothetically) devs adding health pause mechanics to a boss fight because power creep allows players to burn the boss before mechanics are activated. That's dumb and again, power creep shouldn't allow that. It's just feeding ego, when reality is that the game is about playing puzzles and mechanics--it's not supposed to be about duping the game's core intent to inflate egos.

Vulkunne

The problem we have here is, and I say this very respectfully and in good taste, I cannot help if someone else either doesn't agree with me or doesn't share my way of looking at things. What SilverBride is saying is the same message I was conveying in another thread. Its nothing against anyone, but someone else doesn't have to agree in order for me to feel the way I do about whatever.

Anyone who has either worked in Customer Service or spent enough time in the Corporate world has seen the fact that on some levels, yes, we can accommodate, we should try and accommodate, yet sometimes a line must be drawn and that line divides people yes, but just because people are divided it doesn't mean there isn't a good reason why that line exists.

And sometimes we can walk that line, and we should not be afraid to try and work with each other, however in some instances it reaches a point where the line cannot be crossed and that's just how it is. Doesn't mean it's that way for everything but sometimes all we can and really should do is agree to disagree and instead of making demands, offer respect for others' differences and accept those, whether we like it or not, that is the very essence of free will. Rather than get mad because someone doesn't give us everything we want, respect them for who they are.

Respect the fact that some have a different opinion without judgement. If they wish to offer an explanation great but otherwise it's not a good look to try and find fault just because someone else doesn't explain themselves on demand, which isn't friendly to ask them to do anyways. Sometimes people just need to recognize where the line exists and stay on their side and that's all we can do unless we can find some common ground to agree on.

Ruthless

Can we stop calling streamers successful if they have 11 viewers



.

spartaxoxo

Vulkunne wrote: »

Respect the fact that some have a different opinion without judgement. If they wish to offer an explanation great but otherwise it's not a good look to try and find fault just because someone else doesn't explain themselves on demand, which isn't friendly to ask them to do anyways. Sometimes people just need to recognize where the line exists and stay on their side and that's all we can do unless we can find some common ground to agree on.

It's not about finding fault with someone if they don't want to explain. It's about how feedback can be delivered constructively, to minimize negative impact on the person receiving it. They actually explain this in education and workplace seminars.

https://online.champlain.edu/blog/giving-constructive-feedback

This image is about the workplace but you could apply the same essence to comments on here.

spartaxoxo

Ruthless wrote: »

Can we stop calling streamers successful if they have 11 viewers



.

That steamers has had way more views than that in the past. Using numbers post quitting to judge his success and impact on the community is unfair. I personally think he's had both positive and negative impacts on the community. But, there's no denying that ESO-U was a very useful site for players.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

Some know what they are talking about because they have tested the mechanics. There was some rogue guy who used to stream. When he said something, you knew it was accurate vs just raging against the machine. He discovered the issue behind some broken mechanics vs just raging about it. iirc, he started working for Zenimax which I expect was due to his profound understanding of combat mechanics.

This was ZOS_Gilliam aka Gilliam the Rogue.

Vulkunne

You do realize by acting this way you are making others on here feel uncomfortable, you are in essence doing the thing that you claim to be arguing against. I think you should respect others experience instead of trying to force us all to change for you. Deleted your oversized and unnecessarily 'loud' response.

Treating people like children doesn't earn your respect it just further isolates you. In my case no I am not a social butterfly but that doesn't mean I treat everyone with contempt.

spartaxoxo

Vulkunne wrote: »

You do realize by acting this way you are making others on here feel uncomfortable, you are in essence doing the thing that you claim to be arguing against.

I think you should respect others experience instead of trying to force us all to change for you. Deleted your oversized and unnecessarily 'loud' response.

Apologies for the image size, I put it in spoiler tags. Didn't think it would be that big. You don't have to change the way you post if you don't want to do so. Nobody is forcing you. I am simply explaining why "toxic casual" which is a phrase that a streamer popularized became such a popular concept. Many vet players felt dismissed by other players when they raised concerns and that's I think a major reason why. At least to when it comes to posting here. Take that information in or don't, the choice is up to you. Ultimately, you can adapt any posting style that you choose to, as is your absolute right.

ETA
Anyway, I think I'll bow out of this tangent here so it doesn't derail the thread. I think that streamers introducing that phrase has some legitimacy to it. But, in some ways it's also done harm because it's used to also dismiss any disagreement. But let's focus more on streamers as a whole group.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Some know what they are talking about because they have tested the mechanics. There was some rogue guy who used to stream. When he said something, you knew it was accurate vs just raging against the machine. He discovered the issue behind some broken mechanics vs just raging about it. iirc, he started working for Zenimax which I expect was due to his profound understanding of combat mechanics.

This was ZOS_Gilliam aka Gilliam the Rogue.

Yes, that is him. Before I started playing ESO I was interested and he was one I would check out his videos from time to time.
They were very informative and demonstrated deep knowledge about how changes would effect the game and more.

I cannot speak to how he is as a developer as there would be much we do not know, but it is unfortunate the game lost him as a content creator since I have yet to find anyone who has demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the game as he did.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ruthless wrote: »

Can we stop calling streamers successful if they have 11 viewers



.

That steamers has had way more views than that in the past. Using numbers post quitting to judge his success and impact on the community is unfair. I personally think he's had both positive and negative impacts on the community. But, there's no denying that ESO-U was a very useful site for players.

and this is another aspect I have seen lost with this game. ESO-U was a great site. It seemed the site has multiple content creators that I expect were vetted vs just anyone being able to post a build or write an article. There was one good site years ago with a good design with a foundry in the name, but it does not seem to exist.

Such sites are great for new and veteran players to get information, though I have always told people that finding builds online is great, but only consider ones with videos that demonstrate they actually work vs someone posting a build they think is really cool.

Stamicka

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Some know what they are talking about because they have tested the mechanics. There was some rogue guy who used to stream. When he said something, you knew it was accurate vs just raging against the machine. He discovered the issue behind some broken mechanics vs just raging about it. iirc, he started working for Zenimax which I expect was due to his profound understanding of combat mechanics.

This was ZOS_Gilliam aka Gilliam the Rogue.

I cannot speak to how he is as a developer as there would be much we do not know, but it is unfortunate the game lost him as a content creator since I have yet to find anyone who has demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the game as he did.

ESO is spreadsheet balanced and homogenized. We also got update 35. Take that for what you will.

Toanis

Amottica wrote: »

LOL, I guess it is really on Zenimax for inviting back the second time. Was not aware that he was not heeding their requests.

To be fair, he openly spoke about both cases in his goodbye video on youtube, the first time was at the ZOS event in Amsterdam, where people used to EU privacy laws complained to him directly and ZOS as the host, the second time (where Gina was adamant that she won't continue until he stops filming) was a ESO meet-n-greet on twitchcon.

That was the last straw for him after having nothing positive to say about ESO for at least 2 years, and he's burning bridges now, which is really bad for ESO's hardcore endgame community that sat comfortably on one guy's shoulders. This is why we still talk about one guy leaving the game.

Nefas wasn't just a streamer, he hosted a lot of tools and websites and used his own discord for ESO's endgame community. All those things are now gone or going away soon, yet while it was foreseeable that he's going to leave the game, nobody stepped up to take a bit of load from that one disgruntled guy who likely spent 5 times as much on ESO related hosting costs than he paid to ZOS to actually play the game.

Amottica

Stamicka wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Some know what they are talking about because they have tested the mechanics. There was some rogue guy who used to stream. When he said something, you knew it was accurate vs just raging against the machine. He discovered the issue behind some broken mechanics vs just raging about it. iirc, he started working for Zenimax which I expect was due to his profound understanding of combat mechanics.

This was ZOS_Gilliam aka Gilliam the Rogue.

I cannot speak to how he is as a developer as there would be much we do not know, but it is unfortunate the game lost him as a content creator since I have yet to find anyone who has demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the game as he did.

ESO is spreadsheet balanced and homogenized. We also got update 35. Take that for what you will.

In the same token it could be due to Zenimax's struggles to try to balance the game. Ofc, we can assume much.

Amottica

Toanis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

LOL, I guess it is really on Zenimax for inviting back the second time. Was not aware that he was not heeding their requests.

To be fair, he openly spoke about both cases in his goodbye video on youtube, the first time was at the ZOS event in Amsterdam, where people used to EU privacy laws complained to him directly and ZOS as the host, the second time (where Gina was adamant that she won't continue until he stops filming) was a ESO meet-n-greet on twitchcon.

That was the last straw for him after having nothing positive to say about ESO for at least 2 years, and he's burning bridges now, which is really bad for ESO's hardcore endgame community that sat comfortably on one guy's shoulders. This is why we still talk about one guy leaving the game.

Nefas wasn't just a streamer, he hosted a lot of tools and websites and used his own discord for ESO's endgame community. All those things are now gone or going away soon, yet while it was foreseeable that he's going to leave the game, nobody stepped up to take a bit of load from that one disgruntled guy who likely spent 5 times as much on ESO related hosting costs than he paid to ZOS to actually play the game.

I am aware of what he did outside of streaming.

However, when participating in another group event, you must heed the rules like that. The world does not resolve around any one person. Sad that is how he chose to exit.

sans-culottes

RomanRex wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

sleepy_worm wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

💯
As an aside, here’s hoping they’re moving to a—gasp—PG-13 censorship regime. Still not sure how or why this relatively mild language offends some folks so much.

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

Lyraen_Skyforge

[snip]

This highlights why many users feel frustrated.

[snip]

The frustration stems not only from the moderation itself but also from those who exploit it to intentionally stifle disagreement.

[snip]

sans-culottes

RomanRex wrote: »

[snip]

This highlights why many users feel frustrated.

[snip]

The frustration stems not only from the moderation itself but also from those who exploit it to intentionally stifle disagreement.

[snip]

Constantly censoring posts definitely makes it hard to follow a conversation. Particularly when users request that it be done on their behalf.

Lyraen_Skyforge

“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”

-Noam Chomsky, The Common Good

Warhawke_80

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ruthless wrote: »

Can we stop calling streamers successful if they have 11 viewers



.

That steamers has had way more views than that in the past. Using numbers post quitting to judge his success and impact on the community is unfair. I personally think he's had both positive and negative impacts on the community. But, there's no denying that ESO-U was a very useful site for players.

Way more is maybe 800 and that still isn't a lot especially with the bot dilemma on YouTube, and don't get me wrong I'm not
diminishing his audience...I'm just saying is the topic which is "Hardcore ESO raiding" just doesn't have that many takers

It's a small yet passionate group of people