Fake tanks

KekwLord3000 · January 2025

It's a pug, you shouldn't have any expectations for it, I've learned this the hardway that's why I never do pledge outside of my group.
And ehhh why you farming for vet? like the mat upgrades from blue to purple are dirt cheap, even jewelry unless you doing hm's for double loot (yeah good luck with a pug) doing vet runs for gear makes 0 sense.

Orbital78 · January 2025

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

It's a pug, you shouldn't have any expectations for it, I've learned this the hardway that's why I never do pledge outside of my group.
And ehhh why you farming for vet? like the mat upgrades from blue to purple are dirt cheap, even jewelry unless you doing hm's for double loot (yeah good luck with a pug) doing vet runs for gear makes 0 sense.

I farm vets for the motifs mostly, and the challenge. Dps queues for vet are shorter, and I tend to get less bad groups. Fake tanks and dps are less common as well. But agreed I don't usually do dungeons very often and I don't have high expectations, if it ends up being a dud where I'm doing 70-80%+ of the dps, or people are dying a ton and seem like they skipped learning normals, I'll just drop and do something else for the day. The only way I would feel some sort of obligation to tough it out is if I knew someone in the group or my addons told me they were a guildmate. Even then, there are limits. I value my game time.

MorganaLaVey · January 2025

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

So if they are a fake DD what are they? THere are only 3 roles, if they aren't a DD then they must be a healer or a tank.

No they dont. They can be roleplayers with lore friendly builds, PVP'ers with PVP builds, farmers with max. speed builds, solo questers with no build at all, etc...

If a tank is fake because he is not equipped for tanking (no taunt)
then healer is fake because he is not equipped for healing
and a DD is fake because he is not equipped for DPS

Someone not equipped for DPS does not need to automatically be equipped for healing or tanking. He cam be equipped for roleplay or farming or nothing or anything else.

BananaBender · January 2025

Sarannah wrote: »

Tanking is never boring, you can do many things while tanking! Buffing/debuffing. checking the next group, looking for heavy sacks/chests, seeing if you can go faster, check resources of the group, etc.

I agree, tanking is interesting, but after tanking some harder content like newer trial trifectas, normal dungeons are not all that exiting.

Sarannah wrote: »

Normal dungeons DO need a real tank, as that is where players learn how to tank. And in return, other players can learn their heal and dps roles too! Just because some players feel normals do not require a real tank, does not mean there shouldn't be a real tank. This is screwing up the entire difficulty growth for all players. Yet these same players complain when 'bad' players do veteran dungeons and don't know what to do in there, when they themselves are causing 'bad' players without any knowhow to queue up for those.

There is no difficulty growth in normal dungeons because the game forces end game players to farm transmutes with beginners. Normal dungeons can have real tanks if they want to practise, but they don't require one.
For some it might be nicer to have a real tank for more authentic experience, but majority of the players will just want to get out of the dungeons as quickly as possible.

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should enforce the roles and make dungeon on-rails, to remove the fake roles and create a friendly MMO environment for everyone. Where everyone can learn.

PS: Speedrunning vs normally doing a dungeon is only about a minute or two/three difference in total, especially in the base game normal dungeons. There is no reason or excuse for players to be making the dungeon experience so toxic for many others.
PPS: Fake roles are just cheating to skip the line!

I don't see how forcing people to play on their own roles would make the experience any more friendly, it would only make people more upset about low dps.

You can definitely save more time than that if you speedrun properly, but even if you saved 3 minutes a dungeon that's 60 minutes saved when doing a dungeon on all characters.

DenverRalphy · January 2025

I think it's inherently clear what the OP intended by the term Fake Tank, or what Fake Anything means when they created the topic. The OP was refering to queue jumpers intentionally setting their role from DPS to Tank/Healer to avoid queue times.

It's a widely accepted term that doesn't need any re-defining, twisting of semantics, or any other form of analysis. IMO,this whole thread has been derailed with the intent to invalidate the OP's concern.

KaironBlackbard · January 2025

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Its usually synergestic to healing; like Warden's Lotus Bloom or crit healing Sorc with Power Surge and the Blind set.
If boss' aggro is dependant on damage output, then I must have higher damage than DDs in those teams...which is flattering.

No, well yes but Healing is a strong aggro source. Sometimes I feel like healing generates twice the aggro than damage. There have been times where I literally do zero damage to targets, I cast one heal and now I'm the target of the hoard.
I've made a neat loadout of a High Elf Psijic Sorc running Symbiosis, Light of Cyrodiil, and Deliberation. I've yet to determine whether Stormweavers Cavort is better or Esoteric Environment Greaves.
I was running Chokethorn (procced by either Absorption Field or Dark Conversion), but I traded the shoulders for Knight Slayer.
Was rocking Flame Staff on damage bar, now Lightning Staff.
Backbar is Resto.
Got Bound Aegis on backbar, for extra defense.
The build is designed around channeling Symbiosis on an ally, reducing my damage taken by 50% (5+15+30), and healing them for 2.2k per second, and healing me for 50% of healing done excluding overhealing.
Absorption Field is cast when someone dies, granting myself and allies within healing while I rez the dead one, who is then healed by the field. Running Spirit Mastery for faster revives. My heals are single target except for ult. Still working on AoE heals, but they honestly don't do much at all, save for Absorption Field, but it's an Ult.
Also, because it's a morph of Negate Magic, minor ads can't reach us else get stunned.
This build doesn't work in PvP because of the interrupt and bash spam that occurs. There's no way to resist their interrupts.
Anywho, when I need to do more healing, I swap to chokethorn, need more damage swap to Knight Slayer.

I wish symbiosis would heal me regardless of how much healing it heals my ally for, because sometimes I'm sitting at low health using the channel as a shield/armor and unable to heal myself, because every time I try in those scenarios I die. Like the moment I release channel to cast a heal, that's when they activate a power attack and give me a death blow or something like that.

When I manage to get chokethorn to proc on an Absorption Field cast, and I'm channeling Symbiosis, that's over 7k per second to the target. Though, half the time chokethorn targets me, that's ok when I need to rez someone or low health but otherwise not as helpful to the party.
Chokethorn, Symbiosis, and Absorption Field all seem to have the same healing per second. 2.2k average. Still need to find some good weapon sets to pair with the Chokethorn variant of the build, and better heals.

It's a light armor build, so not very defensible against martial damage.

KaironBlackbard · January 2025

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Right behind the performance issues, this is one of the main problems ESO is facing.

Easy solution to fake tanks: when queueing as tank role your damage done is reduced by 90%, all your attacks on boss monsters automatically taunt, and the damage you take is increased by 50%.

This way they have to do what they signed up for.

1: I don't think that fake role players necessarily care about their damage. I've seen many fakes (mostly healers though, as I rarely do normal dungeons), and oftentimes their damage is already not that great.
2: Auto-taunting also wouldn't really work, it would make taunts useless. I am not a tank main, but when I play as tank, I wanna be in control of what I'm doing.
3: And taking extra damage might make some dungeons impossible for pug groups. New dungeon bosses already hit like a ton of bricks, and 50% extra damage from enemies like Archdruid DEvyric would crush any newbie tank.

I think incentivizing veteran runs would be more productive if you want to get rid of op vets in normal. Adding perfected gear sets (so that spamming normal is not the best way of farming gear), better rewards for randoms etc.

1: The players usually signing up for the fake tank roles often claim to be godly DD players(they are not!) and pretend this makes the run go faster, with this suggestion there is no benefit for them to queue as a fake tank. The damage on these tank players does not matter either, they are supposed to take hits, not deal damage. (this can also easily be compensated by changing groupcompositions to add a third DD and make it five player groups)
2: Not auto-taunting... only auto-taunting bosses and only for those queue'd as tank role. This is the very minimum expected from any tank, which is holding the boss(es). Keep in mind, we are not talking about real tanks, but fake tanks! Real tanks will taunt the bosses anyways.
3: Not true, as this extra damage taken is only for the player in the tank role. This would enforce they actually spec as a tank, and are able to take some hits. If you are in tank gear, 50% extra damage won't even be felt. Only fake tanks would actually feel this. Players who have the intention to tank but are not fully geared yet, will barely notice this either.

So the idea stands.

I'm actually with the other guy. I made a block tank and I must say that he still feels damage even fully built in heavy armor. I run Thews of the Harbinger as his damage. 2.2k per hit blocked. Very powerful against rapid attacks. I've tried Warrior Poet, Shattered Fate, Adamant Lurker, and am currently on Ayleid Refuge. When I'm not blocking, he still feels the damage. 50% increased damage taken would mean dead tank, especially if they have only half my build. Now put them into a dungeon where the boss does 25k per hit. Now give it your proposed 50% increased damage taken. Dead tank. Dead Tank. Dead Tank. Why bother running with a tank at all if they are just gonna be paste on the ground? Then people will quit making tank builds and start making dodge builds and fake tanking that way because face/block tanking just makes them paste. No more stationary bosses, it will be moving wherever the dodge tank is dodging. Your idea is terrible.

MJallday · January 2025

this wasnt a problem for me but bizarrely 2 days ago, when the daily was earthen root enclave, i queued 3 times. each time the tank was a fake. basically 22k health - 0 taunt and very little dps

i just quit each time

it isnt fair on me on the other 2 players - and my quitting impacted them as well

think before you queue people.

KaironBlackbard · January 2025

MJallday wrote: »

its quite simple for ZOS to solve this

you cannot tank unless you have 30k health, 1 taunt and 1 sheild skill slotted
you cannot heal unless you have 1700 recovery in mag or stam recovery, 1 AOE heal and 1 ST heal skill slotted

thatll stop the main issue, which is basically DPS chars running through queueing as anything to get a quick run

Shield skill as in DS or S&B?
You can't use a S&B skill on an Ice Staff. Ice Staff does make good block tank and has passive DS skill through Heavy Attack. Tri Focus.
As a professional block tank, I alternate between Ice Staff and S&B bars to keep up my block. I use Thews of the Harbinger as my primary damage, as all I'm doing is blocking the entire time. I run Inner Beast on staff and Pierce Armor on S&B. I run Elemental Susceptibility and Spell Wall. I have Crushing Shock for ranged interrupt.
Sure, I have Defensive Stance on my S&B bar but I never use it, not that often anyways.

Also, people could get around it by slotting then unslotting inside.

And, other professional groups would hate getting ability locked because sometimes they have a strat where they use different skills at each boss or wave, and being locked would hurt their playability.

No win there.

As for the heal, my healer would qualify, but they aren't on the same bar, which could complicate how it's read. If it works like Chokethorn, then even Dark Exchange could count which is on my AoE heal bar as my self heal.

One won't stop the issue, and the other will only make pros mad. No win scenario.

KaironBlackbard · January 2025

screamingabdabs wrote: »

I confess I'm surprised to see this subject appear again, however here is my take. There are too few real tanks in the game as the game does not encourage tanks until its too late. OK this is going to be a long post, but it strikes me that the issue is being discussed as; 'how do we stop fake tanks', rather than; 'why do we have fake tanks?'

What follows is an example new player’s progression through the game; not all players will experience it the same way, depending on their general knowledge of MMOs. However it highlights the problems as I see them. Oh I don't PVP that much, but I suspect the issues around changing sets I describe below are similar.

As a new player:
When you start the game you have a mixed mess of set items, whatever the game's RNG drops for you. You level so fast that there is little point in gathering a full set of anything and the overland sets change as you progress through the story. You will probably have only damage skills, with maybe a heal or two.

There are no quests that require the taunting of anything at all.
The tutorial does not mention or explain taunting at all.
Your 1st dungeons, if you play any, will probably be as a dd and you probably have not joined a guild as people are scary.
The beginner 4 player dungeons are easy to allow people to learn the roles, but are so easy that you generally do not need a tank, or indeed a healer.

As a more experienced level 50 to low CP player
If you roll an alt you have the same issues as a new player regarding set collection.
When on your main character: While you will, or should be, aware of the 3 roles, you are still not encouraged to learn tanking unless you specifically want to. This is in part true of healers; however you can back bar a healing staff to help you with soloing harder content, eg Craglorn/ world bosses. This gives a more obvious lead into the role of healer and probably explains why there are more healers in the game.

The armoury station
You may not be aware that the armoury station even exists as it is buried in the crown store and needs to be 'purchased'. Further this only comes with two slots with additional ones costing 1500 crowns. It also requires you to stand by it to switch your build. Yes you can get an armourer to summon, but they cost a further 5000 crowns. These purchases and usage requirement do little to encourage players to use the station. Besides that you will need to research what sets are useful for what role and right now there around 650 of them!

To misquote that great philosopher Garfield:

People are lazy. You can bet that it was not a fitness fanatic that invented power steering.

Or to explain, you are unlikely to run a tank build in overland content as you want stuff to fall over a quickly as possible. You may have reasonable armour if you are currently struggling with some areas, but basically you are a dps. If you want to run a RND you will probably not bother to go back to the armoury station, if you have one at all. You will still have not tried to tank unless you really want to.

You now find the starter dungeons very easy to run as a 4 dd group. If you have purchased DLC (either when you bought the game, or separately) then you will still have to purchase the DLC dungeons in order to run them as they do not come with the associated chapter or dlc.

As a mid CP player
By now you will have got bored of the base game dungeons, you will probably be running trials with a guild, however may not be as people are scary. If you are you may be going through some as a healer. You may not be aware that healers can buff the group unless this has been explained to you. You will not be trying to tank unless you want to and the role has been explained to you. You may have tried to tank in a few pug runs, got screamed at as you don't understand the role and that could well have put you off the role as people are scary.

Now the real problems start.

Since you have purchased some DLC dungeons/chapters etc so you want to run them. However there are fewer players with these DLC because they have to be purchased. Thus you find queueing for them as a dd takes a long time, depending on the dungeon a very long time. You know that you can run base level dungeons as 4 dds, you may have your back bar heal set. You may even have a not great healer, but you know that queuing as tank means a faster queue and, well you can 4 dd a normal base level dungeon. You've probably run vet base dungeons as well. So the DLC ones will be the same. It won't matter if you enter as a fake tank.

Right?

Nope.

There is a gulf between the game's base dungeons and the DLC and an even bigger one between DLC and DLC hard mode. This is not explained anywhere by the game and you only find out if someone tells you or you go in and die a lot. You may only ever find out the latter way as people are scary.

From reading the various post on this thread its obvious that folk here now how to tank. You know how to heal. But ask your selves how you found out? I very much doubt it was just from playing the game.

There is a quote: "The greatest failure in intelligence is the belief that if I can’t do it, no one can". Which I am going to spin on its head and say: 'The greatest failure in understanding is the belief that if I can do it, everyone can."

Folk here know how to tank and know how to heal because you have taken the trouble in busy lives to find out. I had to for healing, though I confess I still cannot tank. So what is needed is not a way to punish people who do not have the same knowledge, but encourage them to find out and more importantly have fun doing so.

This has been a very long post and thank you to those who have got this far. here are my suggestions.

1. Add quests in the base game that require players to slot taunts. These could be quests that required you to protect someone or something. You have to taunt the bad guys otherwise they will go after whatever you are protecting and you will fail. This will introduce the concept of the taunt to new players and show how it works.
2. Add some quests where you have to heal someone so they can escape. As described above healing is an easier role to get into but this would not hurt (pun intended).
3. Add a quest at around level 40 that results in the player taking delivery of the armoury station, with an explanation on how to use it! Give access to the summonable armourer at a far lower purchase price, preferably for free.
4. At some lowish level add a quest or two where the player has to take a set of npcs through a 'dungeon’ as a tank. This could be reprised at level 50 and say mid level cp. Each time an NPC explains what the player needs to look out for.

All the above would require work by Zos. They have said that they want to experiment, well there are some suggestions. Lastly. I don’t know if folk here have tried to encourage other players to learn the 3 roles, but I feel this would help. It might even reduce the feeling that people are scary.

Thank you for your time.

Nice. Yes, the tutorials on how to do it would serve well. Perhaps some of us who think we know how to play it can learn a thing or two of how ZoS intended the role vs how we play it.

MaraxusTheOrc · January 2025

DenverRalphy wrote: »

There's no such thing as Fake DPS. There's Not-Very-Good DPS, Underleveled/Under-Geared DPS, and New Player Learning the Game DPS. But there's no Fake DPS.

Fake DPS is just a term invented by fake tanks and fake healers to deflect from the fact that they're faking their roles to skip the queue. Faking DPS would be the equivalent of being next in line but deciding to go move to the back of the line just to wait longer.

This poster gets it. Fake tanks and fake healers are a selfish problem born out of people thinking “shorter queue for me, not for thee.” Someone who is queued as a dps and waits in the queue as a dps is being honest as a group member. Fake tanks and fake healers are inherently dishonest, and that is driving this problem.

KaironBlackbard · January 2025

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

So if they are a fake DD what are they? THere are only 3 roles, if they aren't a DD then they must be a healer or a tank.

No they dont. They can be roleplayers with lore friendly builds, PVP'ers with PVP builds, farmers with max. speed builds, solo questers with no build at all, etc...

If a tank is fake because he is not equipped for tanking (no taunt)
then healer is fake because he is not equipped for healing
and a DD is fake because he is not equipped for DPS

Someone not equipped for DPS does not need to automatically be equipped for healing or tanking. He cam be equipped for roleplay or farming or nothing or anything else.

You can't que as anything other than DPS, Heal, or Tank.

Orbital78 · January 2025

With Arcanist and oakensoul, there is no excuse for fake dpsing, yet it happens. There are plenty of people queuing for vet that are not ready for the content. Normal dungeons can be soloed, the only way they are a fake tank or healer is if they weren't ready to carry the group. It has become more common for people to expect to be carried in content these days. When I fake tanked I generally ran tormentor for aoe pack stacking and healed myself and held all the mobs and still did 30-50% of the dps. Fake = queuing for stuff you aren't ready for. Basically in normals there isn't such a thing since roles are mostly irrelevant.

Reginald_leBlem · January 2025

MaraxusTheOrc wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

There's no such thing as Fake DPS. There's Not-Very-Good DPS, Underleveled/Under-Geared DPS, and New Player Learning the Game DPS. But there's no Fake DPS.

Fake DPS is just a term invented by fake tanks and fake healers to deflect from the fact that they're faking their roles to skip the queue. Faking DPS would be the equivalent of being next in line but deciding to go move to the back of the line just to wait longer.

This poster gets it. Fake tanks and fake healers are a selfish problem born out of people thinking “shorter queue for me, not for thee.” Someone who is queued as a dps and waits in the queue as a dps is being honest as a group member. Fake tanks and fake healers are inherently dishonest, and that is driving this problem.

If everyone who complained about fake tanks made, and played as a real tank this problem would be over yesterday.

Ishtarknows · January 2025

jle30303 wrote: »

its quite simple for ZOS to solve this you cannot tank unless you have 30k health, 1 taunt and 1 sheild skill slotted you cannot heal unless you have 1700 recovery in mag or stam recovery, 1 AOE heal and 1 ST heal skill slotted thatll stop the main issue, which is basically DPS chars running through queueing as anything to get a quick run

My trial trifecta healers don't have that much recovery lmao. I've tanked normal DLC dungeons on a DD with 24k health (with taunt and ele Sus.

What are your parameters for DDs? 2 damage sets? <=4 damage skills on each bar? Actually using these skills?
Just turning up doesn't fulfill the DD role and the sooner everyone understands this the better. If DDs actully Did Damage more people would be likely to bring properly specced tanks and healers into the random queue

moo_2021 · January 2025

why don't we all just use solo IA builds for PUG? No need to complain about each other. Tank can't expect any healer or good DD anyway. It's always like solo dungeon with 3 random helpers.

James-Wayne · January 2025

My biggest issue is with fake DDs, the player damager in PUGs is disgustingly small so I play as brawler tank on Templar... you just need to spec'd differently for PUG's.

Maybe with the updates coming ZOS can put some buffs/debuffs into dungeons like they did for IA to help some of these scenarios out.

Warhawke_80 · January 2025

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Avran_Sylt · January 2025

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.

Yes, I basically only play tanks when doing dungeons(selfish tank with 1.5k dps myself, basically never experience low dps). Have pugged every dungeon, and have done all vet HM's with pugs. Except for the newer dlc dungeons, as I have stopped playing dungeons entirely due to fake roles.

Then what makes you think that making the role 50% harder would encourage people to be real tanks? I honestly don't understand. It is already a difficult role, especially if you use buff sets/ults.
By making tanking more restrictive and boring (auto-taunt), you'd just make people less likely to queue and they will probably just swap to rewards for the worthy as their preferred method of farming transmutes. If you want more tanks, you'd need to make the role more fun and appealing, not less.

Real tanks won't notice 50% extra damage from dungeon monsters and bosses(except the big telegraphed hits, but these shouldn't have their damage increased anyways), even while leveling my alts to 50 in found gear I was tanking easily and barely taking damage. The only ones who would notice this extra damage taken, is fake tanks.

None of my proposed solutions would scare away a real tank:
*90% damage loss... real tanks barely do any dps anyways. (this can be compensated by changing dungeons to 5-man groups with 3 dps players)
*Auto-taunting bosses... real tanks taunt bosses anyways. Won't affect real tanks.
*50% extra damage taken: Real tanks won't notice this at all, tanks are supposed to be able to take hits.

The only thing these role specific features would do, is enforce the role the 'tank' signed up for. Tanking!

PS: Have tried buff sets, but the DD's do much more dps if they can fully focus on their rotation instead of running around and doing 15% extra damage while attacking 70% less. For this to work, the tank needs to taunt everything, and should be able to take all the hits. (this is also why I often say low dps is mostly the fault of those tanking, as I barely ever experience low dps)

So now you're shoehorning the role into very specific builds and limiting build diversity just because you have in your mind a very specific setup that a tank player should, and with your changes, MUST, adhere to.

That is not in the spirit of ESO, in my opinion. Just someone that wants to force other players to play their way.

Avran_Sylt · January 2025

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Could try increasing reward for following mechanics.

Like with the Banished Cells II "Hard Mode": Keep at least three Daedroths alive when you Kill High Kinlord Rilis.

You can just DPS the Daedra down and not need to worry about them at all to finish the Dungeon.

But if you want to get that Hard Mode, you need to have a tank that's taking the Deadroths aggro away from the team, while also not keeping them next to Rilis and out of his fire, while still holding his aggro, and taking all the additional Daedroth Damage. (Juggling the adds, but in this case to keep them alive).

I'm noticing that with a lot of the newer Dungeons, the base-line is DIFFICULT, and not really optional. Speaking as a "fake tank" (who slots taunts, Warhorn, Brawler, etc.) who only has an HP pool of 22K, and has learned I cannot do any Vet dungeons as boss single-target damage has just gotten higher and higher.

Warhawke_80 · January 2025

The issue is a full party of DPS ( Sometimes even not a full party...) can blow through Trials No Tank No Healer No weaving....

I do it all the time and I am about as far from a pro gamer as you can get

My question is why bother when you don't need to?
It's an honest question

So Crank up the difficulty right?
The only problem is every time they have tried that even less people than the small amount who participates in Trails shows up...

Case in Point that new hardcore MMO that's out in Early Access you would think there would be queues because people are dying to play an authentic Hardcore MMO....

It's a ghost town..with the same five players all yelling for groups and nothing really happening...after ten years dev time it's sorta sad to see...."if you build it only a few are going to come" that is the lesson here

My point is there are no easy answers here...the vast majority of people these days want a casual experience...if they want a challenge they will go play a Souls Like game...every time a dev puts out a super Hard Core MMO it dies..... even the Grand-Daddy of all MMO's has become a light busy work game with Social elements...because most folks are just too busy to devote their lives to a raiding guild

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Could try increasing reward for following mechanics.

Like with the Banished Cells II "Hard Mode": Keep at least three Daedroths alive when you Kill High Kinlord Rilis.

You can just DPS the Daedra down and not need to worry about them at all to finish the Dungeon.

But if you want to get that Hard Mode, you need to have a tank that's taking the Deadroths aggro away from the team, while also not keeping them next to Rilis and out of his fire, while still holding his aggro, and taking all the additional Daedroth Damage. (Juggling the adds, but in this case to keep them alive).

I'm noticing that with a lot of the newer Dungeons, the base-line is DIFFICULT, and not really optional. Speaking as a "fake tank" (who slots taunts, Warhorn, Brawler, etc.) who only has an HP pool of 22K, and has learned I cannot do any Vet dungeons as boss single-target damage has just gotten higher and higher.

I don’t think this approach is going to draw people in.

The main issue here is that players aren’t engaging with unnecessary mechanics because, quite simply, they’re unnecessary. While it’s true that newer dungeons are slightly harder, I’m still able to breeze through them with a full group of DPS. Even when we’re short a couple of people, it only takes a little extra effort to clear them.

Increasing the difficulty or adding incentives doesn’t seem like the right solution. The game is what it is, and most players are going to skip mechanics anyway. The truth is, many players never really enjoyed the combat itself, so adding more complexity or challenge won’t change that behavior.

I think it time they are going to add the One Tamriel feature to Dungeons and Raids....Neither of those has a huge competitive scene anyway and that will open up engagement...It may no t happen this year but I'm betting it will eventually happen

Ezhh · January 2025

Just to begin, I am not aiming to target you specifically, but I've seen similar suggestions a few times, and consider them very problematic, and you are summing them up well enough to make a response easy, so I will quote from you to express a few things.

Sarannah wrote: »

None of my proposed solutions would scare away a real tank:
*90% damage loss... real tanks barely do any dps anyways. (this can be compensated by changing dungeons to 5-man groups with 3 dps players)

Personally I'd be horrified at a 90% damage loss because there are plenty of times when, if I pug as tank, I'm more than half the group's dps. And so there's no doubt about it - this is while in a full tank set up. It is completely possible to do somewhere around 10-15k dps as a tank while still fully performing your job as taunter/stacker/buff and debuff provider for the group.

Sarannah wrote: »

*Auto-taunting bosses... real tanks taunt bosses anyways. Won't affect real tanks.

The basic absolute minimum of skill required for a tank, is to keep taunt on the boss. If this is done automatically, I guess we should make DDs do automatic damage and healers do automatic heals? I enjoy a little challenge in my gaming, so dumbing down a role like this will make me less inclined to play it. I'm fairly sure many competent tanks will feel the same.

Sarannah wrote: »

*50% extra damage taken: Real tanks won't notice this at all, tanks are supposed to be able to take hits.

This would be all well and good in normal or some of the early vets, but upping the number of one hits doesn't help with anything. It would just lead to dodge tanks and more people running around kiting because they can't stand their ground, and this is worse for everyone, in addition to making the barrier for entry much much higher for newer tanks because they can afford even fewer mistakes.

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: Have tried buff sets, but the DD's do much more dps if they can fully focus on their rotation instead of running around and doing 15% extra damage while attacking 70% less. For this to work, the tank needs to taunt everything, and should be able to take all the hits. (this is also why I often say low dps is mostly the fault of those tanking, as I barely ever experience low dps)

I might be missing something: Do you mean you run selfish sets on a tank instead of buff sets so that you can taunt everything and take hits? If it works for you that's great, but it's definitely possible to perform just as well in buff sets so you can help the group kill things faster. I'd also argue that a good tank doesn't need to taunt everything; many trash enemies are so weak in damage output that no taunt is required. What you do need to do for good efficiency is make sure they are stacked correctly (and of course, that you do taunt the hard hitters in each pack).

Avran_Sylt · January 2025

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The issue is a full party of DPS ( Sometimes even not a full party...) can blow through Trials No Tank No Healer No weaving....

I do it all the time and I am about as far from a pro gamer as you can get

My question is why bother when you don't need to?
It's an honest question

So Crank up the difficulty right?
The only problem is every time they have tried that even less people than the small amount who participates in Trails shows up...

Case in Point that new hardcore MMO that's out in Early Access you would think there would be queues because people are dying to play an authentic Hardcore MMO....

It's a ghost town..with the same five players all yelling for groups and nothing really happening...after ten years dev time it's sorta sad to see...."if you build it only a few are going to come" that is the lesson here

My point is there are no easy answers here...the vast majority of people these days want a casual experience...if they want a challenge they will go play a Souls Like game...every time a dev puts out a super Hard Core MMO it dies..... even the Grand-Daddy of all MMO's has become a light busy work game with Social elements...because most folks are just too busy to devote their lives to a raiding guild

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Could try increasing reward for following mechanics.

Like with the Banished Cells II "Hard Mode": Keep at least three Daedroths alive when you Kill High Kinlord Rilis.

You can just DPS the Daedra down and not need to worry about them at all to finish the Dungeon.

But if you want to get that Hard Mode, you need to have a tank that's taking the Deadroths aggro away from the team, while also not keeping them next to Rilis and out of his fire, while still holding his aggro, and taking all the additional Daedroth Damage. (Juggling the adds, but in this case to keep them alive).

I'm noticing that with a lot of the newer Dungeons, the base-line is DIFFICULT, and not really optional. Speaking as a "fake tank" (who slots taunts, Warhorn, Brawler, etc.) who only has an HP pool of 22K, and has learned I cannot do any Vet dungeons as boss single-target damage has just gotten higher and higher.

I don’t think this approach is going to draw people in.

The main issue here is that players aren’t engaging with unnecessary mechanics because, quite simply, they’re unnecessary. While it’s true that newer dungeons are slightly harder, I’m still able to breeze through them with a full group of DPS. Even when we’re short a couple of people, it only takes a little extra effort to clear them.

Increasing the difficulty or adding incentives doesn’t seem like the right solution. The game is what it is, and most players are going to skip mechanics anyway. The truth is, many players never really enjoyed the combat itself, so adding more complexity or challenge won’t change that behavior.

I think it time they are going to add the One Tamriel feature to Dungeons and Raids....Neither of those has a huge competitive scene anyway and that will open up engagement...It may no t happen this year but I'm betting it will eventually happen

Huh, what's your build for Vet DLC dungeons? I keep finding that the mechanics added really put on the beatdown when you're not specced into pure defense.

And I'm not talking about flatly increasing difficulty. But augmenting approach that allows for both DPS only clears, but also Tank/Healer clears that give a greater reward for taking on a higher difficulty.

Say for example Veteran City of Ash II, Valkyn Skoria.

Currently it's a DPS check if you can burn him down before all the plates are destroyed while he remains the same difficulty throughout the fight before he destroys all the platforms. This has a high skill floor (comparatively).

If I would change the fight to provide an incentive to tank/heal I'd do the following:

Valkyn Skoria now remains on the central plate and will not move until killed, or taunted away.

If Valkyn Skoria moves off of a plate, he gains a stack of [Heart of the Mountain] as he detonates the rock in a fiery gyser that engulfs him.

[Heart of the Mountain] restores half of his health anytime he gains a stack, with any excess being added as a stackable damage shield. For every stack of [Heart of the Mountain], he gains increased damage scaling per-stack, and causes an arena-wide DoT scaling per-stack.

Once defeated, rewards scale per-stack. Gold Gear being given at max stacks, more gold, more xp, greater chance of RNG items dropping, more style pages.

Basically: Make the base fight have a low skill floor, allowing the players to ignore mechanics if they want to just blitz it, but allow players to optionally engage with additional mechanics (that reset upon failure, or that can be reset) to make the dungeon more rewarding, requiring a higher skill floor (if not also specialized builds) to maximize the reward.

Ideally then you'd just abolish roles for random queue, with the expectation that players will 4-man DPS the fight with its lower optional difficulties, with group finder being used for more coordinated runs (or players bringing in different loadout sets and sporadically deciding what they want to do when they random queue).

But this is my own opinion, would like to hear your take on it.

Franchise408 · January 2025

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.

Yes, I basically only play tanks when doing dungeons(selfish tank with 1.5k dps myself, basically never experience low dps). Have pugged every dungeon, and have done all vet HM's with pugs. Except for the newer dlc dungeons, as I have stopped playing dungeons entirely due to fake roles.

Then what makes you think that making the role 50% harder would encourage people to be real tanks? I honestly don't understand. It is already a difficult role, especially if you use buff sets/ults.
By making tanking more restrictive and boring (auto-taunt), you'd just make people less likely to queue and they will probably just swap to rewards for the worthy as their preferred method of farming transmutes. If you want more tanks, you'd need to make the role more fun and appealing, not less.

Real tanks won't notice 50% extra damage from dungeon monsters and bosses(except the big telegraphed hits, but these shouldn't have their damage increased anyways), even while leveling my alts to 50 in found gear I was tanking easily and barely taking damage. The only ones who would notice this extra damage taken, is fake tanks.

None of my proposed solutions would scare away a real tank:
*90% damage loss... real tanks barely do any dps anyways. (this can be compensated by changing dungeons to 5-man groups with 3 dps players)
*Auto-taunting bosses... real tanks taunt bosses anyways. Won't affect real tanks.
*50% extra damage taken: Real tanks won't notice this at all, tanks are supposed to be able to take hits.

The only thing these role specific features would do, is enforce the role the 'tank' signed up for. Tanking!

PS: Have tried buff sets, but the DD's do much more dps if they can fully focus on their rotation instead of running around and doing 15% extra damage while attacking 70% less. For this to work, the tank needs to taunt everything, and should be able to take all the hits. (this is also why I often say low dps is mostly the fault of those tanking, as I barely ever experience low dps)

So now you're shoehorning the role into very specific builds and limiting build diversity just because you have in your mind a very specific setup that a tank player should, and with your changes, MUST, adhere to.

That is not in the spirit of ESO, in my opinion. Just someone that wants to force other players to play their way.

And this ends up being the problem with so many of these conversations... while "fake tanks" absolutely do exist, much of the "fake tank" conversation just revolves around people wanting to force their very narrow and specific view of tanks on everyone else - usually coming from people who don't actually tank themselves. More of the unsolicited advice I talked about in my previous post from people who have never touched tanking themselves, but are sure full of opinions of how us tanks should be playing and building our characters.

Etherea1 · January 2025

Never fake tank in vet PUG.
For nRND it is fine if you bring dps and taunt.

Warhawke_80 · January 2025

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The issue is a full party of DPS ( Sometimes even not a full party...) can blow through Trials No Tank No Healer No weaving....

I do it all the time and I am about as far from a pro gamer as you can get

My question is why bother when you don't need to?
It's an honest question

So Crank up the difficulty right?
The only problem is every time they have tried that even less people than the small amount who participates in Trails shows up...

Case in Point that new hardcore MMO that's out in Early Access you would think there would be queues because people are dying to play an authentic Hardcore MMO....

It's a ghost town..with the same five players all yelling for groups and nothing really happening...after ten years dev time it's sorta sad to see...."if you build it only a few are going to come" that is the lesson here

My point is there are no easy answers here...the vast majority of people these days want a casual experience...if they want a challenge they will go play a Souls Like game...every time a dev puts out a super Hard Core MMO it dies..... even the Grand-Daddy of all MMO's has become a light busy work game with Social elements...because most folks are just too busy to devote their lives to a raiding guild

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Could try increasing reward for following mechanics.

Like with the Banished Cells II "Hard Mode": Keep at least three Daedroths alive when you Kill High Kinlord Rilis.

You can just DPS the Daedra down and not need to worry about them at all to finish the Dungeon.

But if you want to get that Hard Mode, you need to have a tank that's taking the Deadroths aggro away from the team, while also not keeping them next to Rilis and out of his fire, while still holding his aggro, and taking all the additional Daedroth Damage. (Juggling the adds, but in this case to keep them alive).

I'm noticing that with a lot of the newer Dungeons, the base-line is DIFFICULT, and not really optional. Speaking as a "fake tank" (who slots taunts, Warhorn, Brawler, etc.) who only has an HP pool of 22K, and has learned I cannot do any Vet dungeons as boss single-target damage has just gotten higher and higher.

I don’t think this approach is going to draw people in.

The main issue here is that players aren’t engaging with unnecessary mechanics because, quite simply, they’re unnecessary. While it’s true that newer dungeons are slightly harder, I’m still able to breeze through them with a full group of DPS. Even when we’re short a couple of people, it only takes a little extra effort to clear them.

Increasing the difficulty or adding incentives doesn’t seem like the right solution. The game is what it is, and most players are going to skip mechanics anyway. The truth is, many players never really enjoyed the combat itself, so adding more complexity or challenge won’t change that behavior.

I think it time they are going to add the One Tamriel feature to Dungeons and Raids....Neither of those has a huge competitive scene anyway and that will open up engagement...It may no t happen this year but I'm betting it will eventually happen

Huh, what's your build for Vet DLC dungeons? I keep finding that the mechanics added really put on the beatdown when you're not specced into pure defense.

And I'm not talking about flatly increasing difficulty. But augmenting approach that allows for both DPS only clears, but also Tank/Healer clears that give a greater reward for taking on a higher difficulty.

Say for example Veteran City of Ash II, Valkyn Skoria.

Currently it's a DPS check if you can burn him down before all the plates are destroyed while he remains the same difficulty throughout the fight before he destroys all the platforms. This has a high skill floor.

If I would change the fight to provide an incentive to tank/heal I'd do the following:

Valkyn Skoria now remains on the central plate and will not move until killed, or taunted away.

If Valkyn Skoria moves off of a plate, he gains a stack of [Heart of the Mountain] as he detonates the rock in a fiery gyser that engulfs him.

[Heart of the Mountain] restores half of his health anytime he gains a stack, with any excess being added as a stackable damage shield. For every stack of [Heart of the Mountain], he gains increased damage scaling per-stack, and causes an arena-wide DoT scaling per-stack.

Once defeated, rewards scale per-stack. Gold Gear being given at max stacks, more gold, more xp, greater chance of RNG items dropping, more style pages.

Basically: Make the base fight have a low skill floor, allowing the players to ignore mechanics if they want to just blitz it, but allow players to optionally engage with additional mechanics (that reset upon failure, or that can be reset) to make the dungeon more rewarding, requiring a higher skill floor (if not also specialized builds) to maximize the reward.

Ideally then you'd just abolish roles for random queue, with the expectation that players will 4-man DPS the fight with its lower optional difficulties, with group finder being used for more coordinated runs (or players bringing in different loadout sets and sporadically deciding what they want to do when they random queue).

But this is my own opinion, would like to hear your take on it.

I typically play some variation of Okensorc—it may not be the most exciting choice, I know—but I find it more enjoyable than say options like DDFete.

I really appreciate the layered approach you're suggesting. It thoughtfully considers the diverse goals and abilities of players while enhancing replayability and depth in content such as Veteran City of Ash II. Your rework idea for Valkyn Skoria is particularly impressive because it achieves a meaningful balance between accessibility and challenge.

That said, I think it's important to address a broader concern, and I hope this doesn't come across as overly critical.

The push-and-pull dynamic in game design often feels like an endless tug-of-war. The audience advocating for more challenging, niche content is relatively small—certainly not enough to fill a stadium. Many of these players also utilize tools (like addons, VC, and comprehensive strategy guides) that effectively simplify the game, tools that might have been considered "cheats" back in my EQ days.

From my conversations with friends in the industry, it's clear that very few players ever experience high-end PvE or PvP content, and even fewer truly want to. This raises the question: why allocate significant resources to creating content that is so "bespoke"?

And yet, the developers still cater to endgame raiding and PvP, which I respect.

For instance, I recently received a free key to try a new hardcore MMO. It’s essentially a modernized version of old-school EQ—visually impressive, with solid combat mechanics, and designed specifically for the hardcore raider. Unfortunately, the player base is almost nonexistent, which makes the game unlikely to succeed. My prediction? Within six months, it will either shut down or transition to a free-to-play model with a cash shop.

I don’t envy MMO developers. They're often tasked with the impossible—balancing the desires of vastly different player demographics. Making one group happy frequently alienates another, which must be a constant struggle.

I certainly don't have the answers... I only know what direction I would like to see the game go which would probably wouldn't make Hard core players too happy.

Sarannah · January 2025

Franchise408 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.

Yes, I basically only play tanks when doing dungeons(selfish tank with 1.5k dps myself, basically never experience low dps). Have pugged every dungeon, and have done all vet HM's with pugs. Except for the newer dlc dungeons, as I have stopped playing dungeons entirely due to fake roles.

Then what makes you think that making the role 50% harder would encourage people to be real tanks? I honestly don't understand. It is already a difficult role, especially if you use buff sets/ults.
By making tanking more restrictive and boring (auto-taunt), you'd just make people less likely to queue and they will probably just swap to rewards for the worthy as their preferred method of farming transmutes. If you want more tanks, you'd need to make the role more fun and appealing, not less.

Real tanks won't notice 50% extra damage from dungeon monsters and bosses(except the big telegraphed hits, but these shouldn't have their damage increased anyways), even while leveling my alts to 50 in found gear I was tanking easily and barely taking damage. The only ones who would notice this extra damage taken, is fake tanks.

None of my proposed solutions would scare away a real tank:
*90% damage loss... real tanks barely do any dps anyways. (this can be compensated by changing dungeons to 5-man groups with 3 dps players)
*Auto-taunting bosses... real tanks taunt bosses anyways. Won't affect real tanks.
*50% extra damage taken: Real tanks won't notice this at all, tanks are supposed to be able to take hits.

The only thing these role specific features would do, is enforce the role the 'tank' signed up for. Tanking!

PS: Have tried buff sets, but the DD's do much more dps if they can fully focus on their rotation instead of running around and doing 15% extra damage while attacking 70% less. For this to work, the tank needs to taunt everything, and should be able to take all the hits. (this is also why I often say low dps is mostly the fault of those tanking, as I barely ever experience low dps)

So now you're shoehorning the role into very specific builds and limiting build diversity just because you have in your mind a very specific setup that a tank player should, and with your changes, MUST, adhere to.

That is not in the spirit of ESO, in my opinion. Just someone that wants to force other players to play their way.

And this ends up being the problem with so many of these conversations... while "fake tanks" absolutely do exist, much of the "fake tank" conversation just revolves around people wanting to force their very narrow and specific view of tanks on everyone else - usually coming from people who don't actually tank themselves. More of the unsolicited advice I talked about in my previous post from people who have never touched tanking themselves, but are sure full of opinions of how us tanks should be playing and building our characters.

uhhm, I am mainly a tank... and my proposed role enforcing features would only enforce the things an actual tank needs to do in that role. That is take hits and taunt. The proposed damage reduction feature is only there, so DD's won't fake role tanks anymore.

Avran_Sylt · January 2025

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

The issue is a full party of DPS ( Sometimes even not a full party...) can blow through Trials No Tank No Healer No weaving....

I do it all the time and I am about as far from a pro gamer as you can get

My question is why bother when you don't need to?
It's an honest question

So Crank up the difficulty right?
The only problem is every time they have tried that even less people than the small amount who participates in Trails shows up...

Case in Point that new hardcore MMO that's out in Early Access you would think there would be queues because people are dying to play an authentic Hardcore MMO....

It's a ghost town..with the same five players all yelling for groups and nothing really happening...after ten years dev time it's sorta sad to see...."if you build it only a few are going to come" that is the lesson here

My point is there are no easy answers here...the vast majority of people these days want a casual experience...if they want a challenge they will go play a Souls Like game...every time a dev puts out a super Hard Core MMO it dies..... even the Grand-Daddy of all MMO's has become a light busy work game with Social elements...because most folks are just too busy to devote their lives to a raiding guild

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

This may ramble a bit so apologies...

The current challenge is that a full party of DPS players—or sometimes not even a full party—can easily breeze through Trials without the need for a tank, healer, or intricate mechanics like weaving.

I’ve done it myself, and I’m far from being a pro gamer, which leads me to ask: why invest effort into complex strategies when they aren’t necessary? This is an honest question.

The intuitive solution would be to increase the difficulty, right? However, every time developers have tried to do that, participation in Trials drops even further. At least that has what's happen in the six now defunct Guilds I have been a part of...

A prime example is the new hardcore MMO currently in Early Access. You’d expect queues of eager players excited about the authentic hardcore experience, but instead, it’s practically a ghost town. The same small group of players repeatedly calls for groups, but there’s little activity overall. After a decade of development, it’s disheartening to see the “build it and they will come” philosophy not hold up in this case.

The reality is that there are no easy answers. The majority of players today seem to prefer a more casual gaming experience. When they seek a challenge, they often gravitate towards games like Souls-likes. Hardcore MMOs consistently struggle to maintain a player base, and even the most iconic MMOs have shifted to lighter, more accessible gameplay with social elements. For many players, life’s demands simply don’t leave room for the level of commitment required by traditional hardcore raiding guilds.

Could try increasing reward for following mechanics.

Like with the Banished Cells II "Hard Mode": Keep at least three Daedroths alive when you Kill High Kinlord Rilis.

You can just DPS the Daedra down and not need to worry about them at all to finish the Dungeon.

But if you want to get that Hard Mode, you need to have a tank that's taking the Deadroths aggro away from the team, while also not keeping them next to Rilis and out of his fire, while still holding his aggro, and taking all the additional Daedroth Damage. (Juggling the adds, but in this case to keep them alive).

I'm noticing that with a lot of the newer Dungeons, the base-line is DIFFICULT, and not really optional. Speaking as a "fake tank" (who slots taunts, Warhorn, Brawler, etc.) who only has an HP pool of 22K, and has learned I cannot do any Vet dungeons as boss single-target damage has just gotten higher and higher.

I don’t think this approach is going to draw people in.

The main issue here is that players aren’t engaging with unnecessary mechanics because, quite simply, they’re unnecessary. While it’s true that newer dungeons are slightly harder, I’m still able to breeze through them with a full group of DPS. Even when we’re short a couple of people, it only takes a little extra effort to clear them.

Increasing the difficulty or adding incentives doesn’t seem like the right solution. The game is what it is, and most players are going to skip mechanics anyway. The truth is, many players never really enjoyed the combat itself, so adding more complexity or challenge won’t change that behavior.

I think it time they are going to add the One Tamriel feature to Dungeons and Raids....Neither of those has a huge competitive scene anyway and that will open up engagement...It may no t happen this year but I'm betting it will eventually happen

Huh, what's your build for Vet DLC dungeons? I keep finding that the mechanics added really put on the beatdown when you're not specced into pure defense.

And I'm not talking about flatly increasing difficulty. But augmenting approach that allows for both DPS only clears, but also Tank/Healer clears that give a greater reward for taking on a higher difficulty.

Say for example Veteran City of Ash II, Valkyn Skoria.

Currently it's a DPS check if you can burn him down before all the plates are destroyed while he remains the same difficulty throughout the fight before he destroys all the platforms. This has a high skill floor.

If I would change the fight to provide an incentive to tank/heal I'd do the following:

Valkyn Skoria now remains on the central plate and will not move until killed, or taunted away.

If Valkyn Skoria moves off of a plate, he gains a stack of [Heart of the Mountain] as he detonates the rock in a fiery gyser that engulfs him.

[Heart of the Mountain] restores half of his health anytime he gains a stack, with any excess being added as a stackable damage shield. For every stack of [Heart of the Mountain], he gains increased damage scaling per-stack, and causes an arena-wide DoT scaling per-stack.

Once defeated, rewards scale per-stack. Gold Gear being given at max stacks, more gold, more xp, greater chance of RNG items dropping, more style pages.

Basically: Make the base fight have a low skill floor, allowing the players to ignore mechanics if they want to just blitz it, but allow players to optionally engage with additional mechanics (that reset upon failure, or that can be reset) to make the dungeon more rewarding, requiring a higher skill floor (if not also specialized builds) to maximize the reward.

Ideally then you'd just abolish roles for random queue, with the expectation that players will 4-man DPS the fight with its lower optional difficulties, with group finder being used for more coordinated runs (or players bringing in different loadout sets and sporadically deciding what they want to do when they random queue).

But this is my own opinion, would like to hear your take on it.

I typically play some variation of Okensorc—it may not be the most exciting choice, I know—but I find it more enjoyable than say options like DDFete.

I really appreciate the layered approach you're suggesting. It thoughtfully considers the diverse goals and abilities of players while enhancing replayability and depth in content such as Veteran City of Ash II. Your rework idea for Valkyn Skoria is particularly impressive because it achieves a meaningful balance between accessibility and challenge.

That said, I think it's important to address a broader concern, and I hope this doesn't come across as overly critical.

The push-and-pull dynamic in game design often feels like an endless tug-of-war. The audience advocating for more challenging, niche content is relatively small—certainly not enough to fill a stadium. Many of these players also utilize tools (like addons, VC, and comprehensive strategy guides) that effectively simplify the game, tools that might have been considered "cheats" back in my EQ days.

From my conversations with friends in the industry, it's clear that very few players ever experience high-end PvE or PvP content, and even fewer truly want to. This raises the question: why allocate significant resources to creating content that is so "bespoke"?

And yet, the developers still cater to endgame raiding and PvP, which I respect.

For instance, I recently received a free key to try a new hardcore MMO. It’s essentially a modernized version of old-school EQ—visually impressive, with solid combat mechanics, and designed specifically for the hardcore raider. Unfortunately, the player base is almost nonexistent, which makes the game unlikely to succeed. My prediction? Within six months, it will either shut down or transition to a free-to-play model with a cash shop.

I don’t envy MMO developers. They're often tasked with the impossible—balancing the desires of vastly different player demographics. Making one group happy frequently alienates another, which must be a constant struggle.

I certainly don't have the answers... I only know what direction I would like to see the game go which would probably wouldn't make Hard core players too happy.

I don't know either. But..

Simple fact is that people have lives, work, relationships, kids. Other games they want to play. Games they don't want to need to approach with a heavily critical mindset in order to succeed.

The hardcore gaming generation has grown up and have responsibilities. And the younger generation has diminished attention thanks to current social media.

Warframe axed their raids (which I've played before), for good reason (No one played them, and the rewards were kinda meh). But Warframes core gameplay loop was decent and as a PvE pseudo MMO game could introduce power creep grind as much as they wanted (and have made considerably more and more powercreep grinds through the mastery system incentivizing you to collect everything, and numerous spoiler-related upgrades to your character)

I don't think ESO would benefit from stopping the creation of Raids altogether given it's a more Social game (albeit making them more approachable would be a step in the right direction).

Drop-in, drop-out gameplay is in. Hours-long raids are are a dwindling entertainment medium. I fully expect Daily reward auto-grouping systems like Battlegrounds to take more of a focus for PvP, as well as the Dungeon Finder for PvE, as well as some kind of "Zone focus" that selects certain zones (for some lore-related reason or other), and incentivizes players to partake in activates for that zone for a given number of days with increased rewards, to give a sense of direction.

spartaxoxo · January 2025

Amottica wrote: »

We kick players only if they are jerks through comments or actions and always wait until near the end unless they are unbearable.

I would personally never kick someone near the end of a dungeon. If I have put another player through multiple bosses and 20 minutes or however long of their time, then they deserve their reward. I would personally find it really awful if I were to do that to someone. If they do something I feel is kick worthy, I address that the moment they do it so as not to lead anyone on.

ZOS_GregoryV · January 2025

Greetings,

After removing a few posts, we would like to ask that all members please be sure to stick to the discussion at hand, and be sure to avoid derailing the thread.

Regards,
-Greg-