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Fake tanks
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Koshka✭✭✭✭✭
1: The players usually signing up for the fake tank roles often claim to be godly DD players(they are not!) and pretend this makes the run go faster, with this suggestion there is no benefit for them to queue as a fake tank. The damage on these tank players does not matter either, they are supposed to take hits, not deal damage. (this can also easily be compensated by changing groupcompositions to add a third DD and make it five player groups)Right behind the performance issues, this is one of the main problems ESO is facing.
Easy solution to fake tanks: when queueing as tank role your damage done is reduced by 90%, all your attacks on boss monsters automatically taunt, and the damage you take is increased by 50%.
This way they have to do what they signed up for.
1: I don't think that fake role players necessarily care about their damage. I've seen many fakes (mostly healers though, as I rarely do normal dungeons), and oftentimes their damage is already not that great.
2: Auto-taunting also wouldn't really work, it would make taunts useless. I am not a tank main, but when I play as tank, I wanna be in control of what I'm doing.
3: And taking extra damage might make some dungeons impossible for pug groups. New dungeon bosses already hit like a ton of bricks, and 50% extra damage from enemies like Archdruid DEvyric would crush any newbie tank.
I think incentivizing veteran runs would be more productive if you want to get rid of op vets in normal. Adding perfected gear sets (so that spamming normal is not the best way of farming gear), better rewards for randoms etc.
2: Not auto-taunting... only auto-taunting bosses and only for those queue'd as tank role. This is the very minimum expected from any tank, which is holding the boss(es). Keep in mind, we are not talking about real tanks, but fake tanks! Real tanks will taunt the bosses anyways.
3: Not true, as this extra damage taken is only for the player in the tank role. This would enforce they actually spec as a tank, and are able to take some hits. If you are in tank gear, 50% extra damage won't even be felt. Only fake tanks would actually feel this. Players who have the intention to tank but are not fully geared yet, will barely notice this either.
So the idea stands.
People often tend to overestimate themselves. Even those who just spam light attacks might think they are carrying the group.
May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.
No offense:
It's just that these things would make tanking more punishing instead of encouraging new people to give it a try. 5 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭- Not much you can do for pledge key grind other than lessen the grind.
- For gear farming the new issue is that nobody trades. This is partly due to the stickerbook, now people are extremely selfish and wont trade because they want every single gear drop. If a dungeon takes me 5 mins to do, I dont want a 10 min que for dps. Other games had different loot systems, but I doubt zos would ever make an overhaul like that now. The other option is to redistribute loot drops. Out of the 5 bosses in dungeons, only the final boss drops half of the loot pool. Maybe split up weapons to the other major bosses. Then gear on the remaining bosses.
Yes please... there are SO MANY dungeons (and trials) in the game now, that it is LONG past time to allow players to get more weapons than just one from a run.
We only get 2 new dungeons added a year now, possibly even fewer in future. This gives a whole year to farm every piece before there's more added. Isn't that long enough? Newer players understand they can't complete everything all at once - and why would they want to? Farm what you need and get the rest as you go along.2 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭alpha_synuclein wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »It's not cute.
It's not cool.
It's not funny.
Well, it's kinda funny when they die
Even funnier when you silently agree with the other group members to kick them before the last boss, swap to a proper tank build (or tank/healer depending on what the content demands) and 3-man the boss. That way they keep dying and they waste a whole run worth of time. The screenshots of the hate whispers I got using this method take up a good half of my "ESO highlights" folder.
I've built my Companion to be a taunting tank.
I usually vote to kick the fake tank, if it's a dungeon I need for farm or something else, and pull out my pocket tank Zerith.
He does a good job. Carries me through IA, and dungeons if needed.1 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭I prefer fake tanks in normal random dungeons with PUGs. At least they are done faster.PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat6 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭LootAllTheStuff wrote: »As someone who's not delved into group PvE content much, I've been following this thread with interest. If I wanted to make a start on group dungeons, what would I need to avoid being a "fake tank"?
Make builds for all 3 roles via armory It really depends on what level of content you're doing. Normals (even trials) are silly easy. Try running solo content like infinite archive, maelstrom arena, and/or vateshran. Eventually work up to vet versions after you find normal too easy. Learn to mitigate heavies and mechanics and you will be good for any normal dungeon, most likely. Vet DLC's can get more tricky and you will need to specialize your tanking builds more. Code's combat alerts is a good new player addon if you're on PC, it will help alert you to incoming heavy attacks.
Even a healer should be able to slap on a taunt and basically tank a normal dungeon, unless they are very new and haven't learned to mitigate yet.
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Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭El_Borracho wrote: »DenverRalphy wrote: »There's no such thing as Fake DPS. There's Not-Very-Good DPS, Underleveled/Under-Geared DPS, and New Player Learning the Game DPS. But there's no Fake DPS.
Fake DPS is just a term invented by fake tanks and fake healers to deflect from the fact that they're faking their roles to skip the queue. Faking DPS would be the equivalent of being next in line but deciding to go move to the back of the line just to wait longer.
Hate to break it to you, there is. Its the PVPer who refuses to switch his or her build over for PVE while farming PVP gear. VMOS and Balorgh farmers are the primary example. Pre-nerf Azureblight farmers were another. Current Tarnished Nightmare farmers are the most recent example.
While they hardly every wipe a group (outside of VMOS), I would take a fake tank in a normal dungeon over one of these limp noodles any day as they unnecessarily and selfishly prolong runs. At least most fake tanks can put out mediocre DPS. We have the armory, its free and easy to use, yet there are still players who can't figure out that Wretched Vitality does nothing in PVE. And yes, as a tank, healer, or a real DD, its very easy to see who this player is.
I've found an effective way to combat these fakers is to not give them any gear at the end. Its why they are there, so why reward them
They can be pretty bad in Bedlam Veil too, farming for tarnished. When I see dps using a sword and shield, I already know things are going to go poorly.3 -
Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tank Club doesn't actually have a great rep among end game tanks. Every aspiring vet tank should learn from these sources:
https://www.youtube.com/c/hyperioxes
https://discord.com/invite/wildheart
IMO, an optimal normal tank build will be a modified dps build utilizing support sets to buff the whole group. I like olorime/powerful assault with dw front bar and master's ice staff back bar. I would usually have around 22k health with such a build, but will swap in jewels of misrule situationally to buff health as necessary. This kind of build also works well for base game vet dungeons.
Edited by Desiato on January 2, 2025 8:25PMspending a year dead for tax reasons4 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Desiato I would agree its not a great resource for end game tanks. I was coming in from the perspective of "Day One" tanking, where that site is great for someone just starting out. Most of the other build sites presuppose you have experience tanking vet content.
What you are also proposing for a tank build is end game (vet trial, vet DLC) content, and its fine. But those support sets aren't going to do much for a player that is just learning how to tank, even in a base game vet dungeon. For a noob, Plague Doctor, Leeching Plate, Imperium, Battalion Defender, or other selfish sets are probably going to work better. Taunting and staying alive are the core of tanking. Support for the group is a bonus. Once a player can figure out how to tank, I would totally agree that support sets are superior.2 -
Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The tank build I proposed is for normal dungeons of all types. It works well for base game vet as well as a full vet tank build is a waste on those IMO.
I personally wouldn't ever recommend selfish sets. They teach poor habits. Scrambling to survive while holding agro and positioning is the best experience for a new tank. They should also be immediately thinking about their sub-roles of debuffing the boss and buffing the group.
My first modern vet dlc tanking experience after being away from the game for years was a 3 dps vet bedlam veil pug. It was the best experience I could possibly have had! What a great way to learn about enraged and hindered!
Hyperioxes tested leeching and battalion defender and wasn't impressed:
What he suggests for players looking for a selfish set are:
- wretched vitality
- senchal defender
- fortified brass
Although, that's not to say he necessarily recommends them for new players, only those who are looking for a selfish set. IMO, it's best to start as you mean to go on.
Edited by Desiato on January 2, 2025 11:19PMspending a year dead for tax reasons2 -
Warhawke_80✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oceanchanter wrote: »It's not cute.
It's not cool.
It's not funny.
Not to inflate my own ego, but I'm a good healer.
I have couple of veteran Trials under my belt.
None the less, it's frustrating when the boss chases me and I have to run around like a headless chicken.
If it's some Fungal Grotto or Elden Hollow it's not that big of a deal; those are baby's first dungeons.
A lot of DLC dungeons, on the other hand, require a proper tank to make the run smoother and less frustrating.
And for some reason, this happens to Scrivener's Hall most of the time - at least from my experience.
Second would be Bedlam Veil, but BV is my personal purgatory I spend weeks farming, so I know the ins and outs.
Perhaps I'm the most unlucky healer on a server and this kind of situation doesn't happen to anyone else.
I'm just talking out loud.
I bet some tanks have fake healer stories as well.
Most folks really don't care...it's not like Trials are challenging or anything most folks do them as a goof if they do them at all...I don't see that changing.““Elric knew. The sword told him, without words of any sort. Stormbringer needed to fight, for that was its reason for existence...”― Michael Moorcock, Elric of Melniboné0 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭
✭AgaTheGreat wrote: »I prefer fake tanks in normal random dungeons with PUGs. At least they are done faster.
Your experience varies greatly from mine.
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Weesacs✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks? What about fake DDs? They are much more prevalentBreton Templar
PS5 - EU - DC4 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Yes, I basically only play tanks when doing dungeons(selfish tank with 1.5k dps myself, basically never experience low dps). Have pugged every dungeon, and have done all vet HM's with pugs. Except for the newer dlc dungeons, as I have stopped playing dungeons entirely due to fake roles.May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.0 -
Koshka✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, I basically only play tanks when doing dungeons(selfish tank with 1.5k dps myself, basically never experience low dps). Have pugged every dungeon, and have done all vet HM's with pugs. Except for the newer dlc dungeons, as I have stopped playing dungeons entirely due to fake roles.May I ask you a question?.. Have you tanked before? New dungeon bosses hit really hard, especially on vet (yes, even in heavy armor, through block and when getting healed), and some have mechanics that punish dodging their heavies. The idea of 50% extra damage taken would just drive any remaining tanks away from group finder, and if this would be game-wide, from the game.
Then what makes you think that making the role 50% harder would encourage people to be real tanks? I honestly don't understand. It is already a difficult role, especially if you use buff sets/ults.
By making tanking more restrictive and boring (auto-taunt), you'd just make people less likely to queue and they will probably just swap to rewards for the worthy as their preferred method of farming transmutes. If you want more tanks, you'd need to make the role more fun and appealing, not less.Edited by Koshka on January 3, 2025 11:59AM2 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks? What about fake DDs? They are much more prevalent
No. No there are not by any stretch of the imagination.
Literally nobody intentionally queues up dps when they know they're not supposed to in order to bump their position in line. They might not be any good at being a dps, might be inexperienced and simply not know how support mechanics work and that dps should avoid using them in group content. Or any other twisted definitition or rationalization players on this forum can dream up. The simple fact is, nobody, seriously nobody, intentionally fake poses as DPS to jump the queue.
Edited by DenverRalphy on January 3, 2025 2:10PM3 -
MorganaLaVey✭✭✭✭
I already replied to this earlier in this thread, apparently you missed that. Fake DPS dont pose as DPS to skip the queue, but to skip the learning process, very intentionally.DenverRalphy wrote: »Fake tanks? What about fake DDs? They are much more prevalent
No. No there are not by any stretch of the imagination.
Literally nobody intentionally queues up dps when they know they're not supposed to to bump their position in line. They might not be any good at being a dps, might be inexperienced and simply not know how support mechanics work and that dps should avoid using them in group content. Or any other twisted definitition or rationalization players on this forum can dream up. The simple fact is, nobody, seriously nobody, intentionally fake poses as DPS to jump the queue.
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Juomuuri✭✭✭✭✭I was doing some rnds with a friend in December, I was a tank and he was a healer. We ran across an actual fake dd who was a TANK who had queued in as a dd. We tried to vote kick since this player didn't listen to me asking to not taunt stuff, but apparently the dds were there together and we couldn't kick... So we just deserted and went to do something else. People say there's no such thing as "fake dd" but a fake dd is when a tank or a healer queues as dd! I once had a situation where in my rnd I was a healer and we had 3 tanks who were all overtaunting all bosses. XDDDDDPC-EU (Steam) - CP 2300 - I was a tankblade main...1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »
I already replied to this earlier in this thread, apparently you missed that. Fake DPS dont pose as DPS to skip the queue, but to skip the learning process, very intentionally.DenverRalphy wrote: »Fake tanks? What about fake DDs? They are much more prevalent
No. No there are not by any stretch of the imagination.
Literally nobody intentionally queues up dps when they know they're not supposed to to bump their position in line. They might not be any good at being a dps, might be inexperienced and simply not know how support mechanics work and that dps should avoid using them in group content. Or any other twisted definitition or rationalization players on this forum can dream up. The simple fact is, nobody, seriously nobody, intentionally fake poses as DPS to jump the queue.
I didn't miss it. Your premise was just flawed. What you described were instances of players just being, well bad.
The whole premise behind Fake Tank/Fake Heals, is to jump the queue. It's impossible to jump the queue by faking the DPS role, because all that accomplishes is moving you further back in line.
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BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭DenverRalphy wrote: »MorganaLaVey wrote: »
I already replied to this earlier in this thread, apparently you missed that. Fake DPS dont pose as DPS to skip the queue, but to skip the learning process, very intentionally.DenverRalphy wrote: »Fake tanks? What about fake DDs? They are much more prevalent
No. No there are not by any stretch of the imagination.
Literally nobody intentionally queues up dps when they know they're not supposed to to bump their position in line. They might not be any good at being a dps, might be inexperienced and simply not know how support mechanics work and that dps should avoid using them in group content. Or any other twisted definitition or rationalization players on this forum can dream up. The simple fact is, nobody, seriously nobody, intentionally fake poses as DPS to jump the queue.
I didn't miss it. Your premise was just flawed. What you described were instances of players just being, well bad.
The whole premise behind Fake Tank/Fake Heals, is to jump the queue. It's impossible to jump the queue by faking the DPS role, because all that accomplishes is moving you further back in line.
I would define someone faking their role by not playing the role they queued as, not as someone who isn't filling their role only to que in faster.
In my mind if you joined the dungeon as a damage dealer and you are not dealing damage, you are a fake DD.4 -
Icy_Waffles✭✭✭✭✭
✭For a normal? Yeah you bet I’m gonna grab a dps, slot a taunt and fracture, and rock and roll.
Otherwise I’m using a tank build with a healer on me that’s not needed as two low dps take 17 minutes on a boss.
It is very annoying when the “tank” has no taunt skill, at the very least if you chose the role, be ready to taunt and hold. I personally don’t care if you DPS, just hold the boss still lol2 -
JiubLeRepenti✭✭✭✭✭
✭Icy_Waffles wrote: »For a normal? Yeah you bet I’m gonna grab a dps, slot a taunt and fracture, and rock and roll.
Otherwise I’m using a tank build with a healer on me that’s not needed as two low dps take 17 minutes on a boss.
It is very annoying when the “tank” has no taunt skill, at the very least if you chose the role, be ready to taunt and hold. I personally don’t care if you DPS, just hold the boss still lol
Same, even for normal DLC dungeons. Even 4 DDs with a stronger one who taunt is fine in general. But as I previously said, a good tank and/or a good healer can make a huge difference with their sets, skills, and bring alot of buff/debuff. Sometimes it's better to run with a well equipped heal rather than an extra mid-tier DD.BE/FR l PC EU l CP2700
TES III Morrowind biggest fan!
A little snail once told me there were no place for debate anymore.
Now, i'll simply MAKE FUN OF IT!1 -
MorganaLaVey✭✭✭✭
I described instances of "DPS" being intentionally bad not performing there role, just as Fake Tank/Fake Heals are intentionally not performing there role.DenverRalphy wrote: »I didn't miss it. Your premise was just flawed. What you described were instances of players just being, well bad.
Who decides what the premise is ? I would argue the premise is players intentionally not performing there role. Because i think if i put a taunt on my DD, queue as a tank and keep the boss taunted, noone has a problem with that, despite me "jumping" the queue. The problem onlly comes in if i dont perform my role as tank.DenverRalphy wrote: »The whole premise behind Fake Tank/Fake Heals, is to jump the queue.
They are not being moved further back in line, because they are not healers or tanks. There position in line is infinite because they are not in line. By queuing as DPS when they are not build for DPS they get from infinite to 100 (or whatever), thats not "further back in line".DenverRalphy wrote: »It's impossible to jump the queue by faking the DPS role, because all that accomplishes is moving you further back in line.3 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »
I described instances of "DPS" being intentionally bad not performing there role, just as Fake Tank/Fake Heals are intentionally not performing there role.DenverRalphy wrote: »I didn't miss it. Your premise was just flawed. What you described were instances of players just being, well bad.
Who decides what the premise is ? I would argue the premise is players intentionally not performing there role. Because i think if i put a taunt on my DD, queue as a tank and keep the boss taunted, noone has a problem with that, despite me "jumping" the queue. The problem onlly comes in if i dont perform my role as tank.DenverRalphy wrote: »The whole premise behind Fake Tank/Fake Heals, is to jump the queue.
They are not being moved further back in line, because they are not healers or tanks. There position in line is infinite because they are not in line. By queuing as DPS when they are not build for DPS they get from infinite to 100 (or whatever), thats not "further back in line".DenverRalphy wrote: »It's impossible to jump the queue by faking the DPS role, because all that accomplishes is moving you further back in line.
The premise is dictated behind a simple given. For a player to intentionally Fake a role, there needs to be an upside for them doing so.
A player being bad at their role, even intentionaly so, is not faking a role. It's just either being not good at it for whatever reason, or just simply griefing if its intentional. A player doesn't need to intentionally kit out as one role only so they can pose as yet another role to accomplish this feat.
As for the "not being moved further back" statement.. C'mon.. let's not be intentionally difficult. It's inherently obvious that I was speaking in an analogous context. If a tank or healer chooses to fake being a DPS, all it would accomplish is making them wait longer to get in. Which is analagous to intentionally giving up a better spot just to move to the back of the line.
Edited by DenverRalphy on January 3, 2025 3:19PM2 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭its quite simple for ZOS to solve this
you cannot tank unless you have 30k health, 1 taunt and 1 sheild skill slotted
you cannot heal unless you have 1700 recovery in mag or stam recovery, 1 AOE heal and 1 ST heal skill slotted
thatll stop the main issue, which is basically DPS chars running through queueing as anything to get a quick run
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JiubLeRepenti✭✭✭✭✭
✭its quite simple for ZOS to solve this
you cannot tank unless you have 30k health, 1 taunt and 1 sheild skill slotted
you cannot heal unless you have 1700 recovery in mag or stam recovery, 1 AOE heal and 1 ST heal skill slotted
thatll stop the main issue, which is basically DPS chars running through queueing as anything to get a quick run
People will still come up with some solutions to that, for instance by playing single-bar DPS with an unused shield on the backbar, or by slotting two healing skills on the backbar.
And if ZOS does that, tanks and healers would legitimately request ZOS to also force DDs to have a minimum of spell/weapon damage and/or Magicka/Physical critical.
It's simply not feasable imo.BE/FR l PC EU l CP2700
TES III Morrowind biggest fan!
A little snail once told me there were no place for debate anymore.
Now, i'll simply MAKE FUN OF IT!3 -
MorganaLaVey✭✭✭✭
1. Why does there need to be an upside for them?DenverRalphy wrote: »The premise is dictated behind a simple given. For a player to intentionally Fake a role, there needs to be an upside for them doing so.
2. For a Fake DPS the upside would be to get in a dungeon without spending time to learn how to perform any of the 3 roles.
I dont get what you want to say with this. So a player (Tank) being bad at their role (not taunting), even intentionaly so, is not faking a role (Tank). He's just simply griefing ? Is this right ? I'm serious... i'm not sure i understand it.DenverRalphy wrote: »A player being bad at their role, even intentionaly so, is not faking a role. It's just either being not good at it for whatever reason, or just simply griefing if its intentional. A player doesn't need to intentionally kit out as one role only so they can pose as yet another role to accomplish this feat.
Hey im not intentionally difficult. I'm just confused. Yea it's impossible to jump the queue by faking the DPS role but it's possible to get in the queue by faking the DPS role. I dont think anyone ever talked about that tanks or healers choose to fake being a DPS, except for you presumably, by asuming everyone who isn't a DPS must be a Tank or Healer.DenverRalphy wrote: »As for the "not being moved further back" statement.. C'mon.. let's not be intentionally difficult. It's inherently obvious that I was speaking in an analogous context. If a tank or healer chooses to fake being a DPS, all it would accomplish is making them wait longer to get in. Which is analagous to intentionally giving up a better spot just to move to the back of the line.
So im really not sure i understand right. DO you think everyone who is not a DPS is automaticlly a Tank or Healer ?
If not: Why do you allways bring up jumping the queue ?3 -
LootAllTheStuff✭✭✭✭✭It would take a lot of work, but I wonder if some of the issues couldn't be addressed by taking advantage of a missing feature in the game: an undaunted quest line? After all, there are ones for the Mages and Fighters guilds.
It could working something like the Companions quest line in Skyrim, with NPC "trainers" running the player through the requirements for each role using, say, one of the public dungeons. Once "qualified", then you could queue for group dungeons in that role (but not one you had not qualified for).
You could maybe have it set up so that you could also rank up certain skills and then say "Actually, I'm already a qualified tank/healer/dd" (a bit like achieving master crafting without getting certified for writs first).
Just an idea (because I'm a sucker for more story content!)2 -
PapaTankers✭✭✭✭LootAllTheStuff wrote: »As someone who's not delved into group PvE content much, I've been following this thread with interest. If I wanted to make a start on group dungeons, what would I need to avoid being a "fake tank"?
Not so much specific builds/gear, but the types of skills/pre-combat stats I'd be looking to reach through a combination of attributes, gear perks, and skills/passives: baseline health, resistances, maj/stam, damage? Also, are there classes with skill trees that make tanking easier/more intuitive? (I think I got the bit about having a taunt skill available!)
Right now my main is a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none Nightblade that I doubt I'd want to use for harder group PvE content (does OK in public dungeons and Craglorn group delves, still needs some focussing), then a recently level 50 Warden and a soon-to-be level 50 Templar (Sorc and DK also on the way; still trying to decide if I actually want to play an Arcanist). CP is >800 because of all the story content, so I have a lot of points to play with.
Any insights/advice would be appreciated!
For normal dungeons, just go with a class ability that gives major resolve and slot a taunt skill and one self heal. Major breach would be helpful for overall group dps also.Edited by PapaTankers on January 3, 2025 5:15PM3 -
burty61✭✭As most of the player base is here for casual questing, costumes or housing the percentage of the game population wanting or willing to do tanking is always going to be way below what is required to populate the various groups. So there will always be a predominance of fake tanks.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuemgL5J_nw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQ0QKNqAwY