Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Yes, because it's directed at the poster.

If directing something at a poster is forbidden, we can close the whole forum because we're all directing our messages at someone when replying to another post. It happens when we say we like someone's idea, or art post, or lore theory or whatever.

We can absolutely discuss other posters' ideas and suggestions, but we need to keep our replies directed at the topic.

We can't tell another poster that they were wrong for how they presented their view. That insinuates that they don't know how to post correctly which is a personal judgement against the poster.

Syldras wrote: »

Since we're discussing possible changes to moderation in this thread anyway, I'd like to ask around: If you (you = everyone here) accidentally post something that someone thinks is rude, would you rather want them to tell you politely so you can make an explanation how it was meant (and for example clear a misunderstanding) or would you prefer them to report your post?

For me personally it's clear: From my point of view, polite criticism is no attack at all, but has a positive intention, might help clearing a misunderstanding, and we can learn something from it. It's nothing negative for me, so I don't need to be "protected" from it (let alone that I, as an adult, can protect myself very well; and if I think I need someone's help, I can still decide to actively ask for it).

I'd really prefer to be able to discuss possible misunderstandings with other users directly so they can immediately be solved without any moderative action involved. And yes, I still believe that this would be for the better for the whole atmosphere of this forum.

A little comparison: If one lives in an appartment house and some new neighbours move in, and they are noisy every night, maybe even without realizing neighbours can hear it, what's friendlier - informing them about it and discussing the problem, or calling the police which might lead to a fine? From experience I can tell you that neighborhoods where people can politely talk to each other are usually the better and more peaceful communities and more pleasant to live in.

This would be my preference also.

I am in favor of civil discussions of intent. More generally I am in favor of any and all civil comments and discussions. The line between "your comments sound rude, is that intentional?" And "you are rude" is an important one to be mindful of. Several times in the past I have (with no ill intention) come across a rude when I was aiming for brevity and assuming that others would read my words as I meant them. Turns out some folks read my words as those of an abrupt jerk, oops.

I just feel that we have a small contingent of people that use Report as a cudgel to keep a certain narrative alive...as long as ZoS allows that we will continue to lose players....and we will have less engagement on the forums

Syldras wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

So is a comment about a poster's writing style a "personal comment"?

This is exactly the point. "Personal comment" to me reads as "insulting someone for who they are". Not as "criticising a post that sounds rude/aggressive/inappropriate is forbidden".

We can even argue whether talking about one's own feelings (how one perceives a post) and asking for clarification does count as "criticism". From my point of view it's not.

And we're back at the problem how to interpret the rules because this interpretation can indeed be very different based on a user's individual and cultural background. Clearer rules including examples would help.

This is problematic.

I am very aware of people who have been moderated and even banned for completely harmless participation in these forums, but the moderators were weaponized by other posters against them. I witnessed moderation and banning happen to a poster because they made a reply stating that the comment they were replying to was a bad faith argument. Nothing against the poster themselves, but the poster still weaponized the mods and the person was banned for calling out the argument.

Since this thread has covered the subject, the moderation on these forums is completely out of control, and is easily the worst moderated forum I have ever been apart of. I've been apart of a lot of forums, and have even been a forum mod in the past. It's the main reason why my participation in these forums is pretty minimal. There are whole posters that I refuse to engage with in any capacity because of their weaponization of the mods against people who disagree with them. I am here presumably to talk and discuss with adults. I am not here to have people running to tattle tail to the mods like kindergartners because they cannot handle someone disagreeing with them.

As far as in game moderation goes, I've not experienced it, but that's mostly because I don't use any in-game chat anymore. I don't play consistently enough anymore, and when I do, I'm nearly exclusively with my guild, so I'm using Discord to communicate. The stories I have heard are absolutely absurd, and if they are true, that's absolutely ridiculous and needs to be changed. I cannot comment on the validity, however I do find these stories to be believable knowing what I know about the forum moderation.

Franchise408 wrote: »

I am very aware of people who have been moderated and even banned for completely harmless participation in these forums, but the moderators were weaponized by other posters against them. I witnessed moderation and banning happen to a poster because they made a reply stating that the comment they were replying to was a bad faith argument. Nothing against the poster themselves, but the poster still weaponized the mods and the person was banned for calling out the argument.

If someone uses the term "bad faith", they're discussing the poster, not the topic, so moderation action may be justified in such cases.

Franchise408 wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

I am very aware of people who have been moderated and even banned for completely harmless participation in these forums, but the moderators were weaponized by other posters against them. I witnessed moderation and banning happen to a poster because they made a reply stating that the comment they were replying to was a bad faith argument. Nothing against the poster themselves, but the poster still weaponized the mods and the person was banned for calling out the argument.

If someone uses the term "bad faith", they're discussing the poster, not the topic, so moderation action may be justified in such cases.

An argument can absolutely be in "bad faith" without being an attack on the poster.

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the term.

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

I witnessed moderation and banning happen to a poster because they made a reply stating that the comment they were replying to was a bad faith argument. Nothing against the poster themselves, but the poster still weaponized the mods and the person was banned for calling out the argument.

I would agree with moderation for this because calling a post a 'bad faith' argument can be seen as against the poster themselves. It is basically saying that the poster had bad intentions and didn't present their argument in good faith.

Do I think anyone should be banned for that? No. Just an explanation why it was snipped should be enough. It should be a learning experience.

While you're correct, I've remember someone claiming you "if you can't even understand what they were saying, then you just don't want to hear i." (this is just a quote from another discussion, not personal attack) during the discussion about a certain update.

I doublechecked. The comment is still up as of the moment of writing this one.
If that's not criticizing the way you understand or interpret the matter, and thus breaking forum ToS, I don't know what it is.

Did it slip past mods?
Sure. Mods can't be anywhere.

The speed at which comments are snipped here might be a sign the thread is monitored more than other ones because we talk about forum and in-game moderation.
Which is a topic that, I'm feeling, might not to everyone's liking, I'm concerned perceived heavier than usual moderation may or may not be weaponized to cripple the discussion.

It is my personal interpretation of the events with no intention to sound malicious.
I'm simply pointing this out so the situation could improve, and this cannot be done without doing so.

This is kinda tiresome to mince words and walk on eggshells all the time.
Which supports the points I've made in this discussion prior.

[I edited the comment myself to clean it up a little - Oceanchanter]

I'd summarize everything up there once again as 'Context is key'. Talking things out like adults needs to be allowed.

I'll also add that the idea of, instead of talking it out like adults, reporting people to the mods in the context of out of hand moderation and resulting lack of trust in moderation feels utterly bizarre to me.

I will not report people. I find it largely unnecessary in communities where I'm not worried about moderation, and outright detrimental in communities where I do.

The possible results are:
- Nothing happens, so nothing is gained, and a perceived problem in communication persists.
- Some vague snipping without consequence happens without clear elaboration on why. This solves nothing and generates resentment.
- Actual disciplinary action happens. See above, except now I may also accidentally contribute towards a ban for absolute nonsense.

Why would I ever want any of this?

Varana wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If they said something like "I find your statement rude" I would not be open to discuss it with them because they already made a judgement about me.

...

I'm lost for words.

How is that a "judgement about me"?

It is (at best) a judgement about a thing I did, i.e. an action. It says absolutely nothing about me, other than that I did something perceived as "rude". Emphasis on "perceived". The quote doesn't even say "your statement is rude", it talks only about the perception.

And again, "rude" can be very different things to people. Which means it's helpful to point out the perception of that statement. It has absolutely no implication about the person or character who posted the comment that came across as "rude".

How are we supposed to even talk with one another?

Saying a players statement was rude does reflect negatively on the player that posted it. Nice players don't post rude comments, so if a post was seen as rude it insinuates that the player that posted it is also rude.

But none of this would even be an issue if posters stopped criticizing how others choose to word their views and only addressed the topic being discussed.

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Saying a players statement was rude does reflect negatively on the player that posted it. Nice players don't post rude comments, so if a post was seen as rude it insinuates that the player that posted it is also rude.

If I had already made my judgement about a user being rude, I wouldn't ask them for clarification about a rude-sounding post out of astonishment. That only happens if the tone of a post surprises me because it's not what I'm used to from that user, therefore I'm assuming a misunderstanding.

I agree.

If we've reached a point where we can't make a statement on the post itself being rude or in bad faith, then close up shop, because there's no conversation left to be had.

We're all supposed to be adults here, but we have people running to the mods to tattle tail like kindergartners. Saying that a post or argument is being made in bad faith is not saying that you are a bad person. I have made plenty of "bad faith" arguments throughout my life as well despite my best efforts to be as honest and trustworthy as possible. Sometimes it is unintentional, sometimes I'm not always at my best, it happens. Calling an argument out for being "bad faith" is the epitome of "attacking the post, not the poster"

Franchise408 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Saying a players statement was rude does reflect negatively on the player that posted it. Nice players don't post rude comments, so if a post was seen as rude it insinuates that the player that posted it is also rude.

If I had already made my judgement about a user being rude, I wouldn't ask them for clarification about a rude-sounding post out of astonishment. That only happens if the tone of a post surprises me because it's not what I'm used to from that user, therefore I'm assuming a misunderstanding.

I agree.

If we've reached a point where we can't make a statement on the post itself being rude or in bad faith, then close up shop, because there's no conversation left to be had.

We're all supposed to be adults here, but we have people running to the mods to tattle tail like kindergartners. Saying that a post or argument is being made in bad faith is not saying that you are a bad person. I have made plenty of "bad faith" arguments throughout my life as well despite my best efforts to be as honest and trustworthy as possible. Sometimes it is unintentional, sometimes I'm not always at my best, it happens. Calling an argument out for being "bad faith" is the epitome of "attacking the post, not the poster"

Some players may not think saying something like "I find your argument rude and in bad faith" as an insult to the poster, but many of us do see it that way. Instead of calling a post rude, ask something like "Please clarify what you mean by this". That is a nonjudgmental statement and could clear up any confusion as to what the poster meant.

But the bottom line is that we are here to discuss ESO, not other players' posting styles. If we disagree with someone's view then counter with our own view. But do not call anyone's post rude or in bad faith because that does come across as insulting to many of us.

Syldras wrote: »

Since we're discussing possible changes to moderation in this thread anyway, I'd like to ask around: If you (you = everyone here) accidentally post something that someone thinks is rude, would you rather want them to tell you politely so you can make an explanation how it was meant (and for example clear a misunderstanding) or would you prefer them to report your post?

For me personally it's clear: From my point of view, polite criticism is no attack at all, but has a positive intention, might help clearing a misunderstanding, and we can learn something from it. It's nothing negative for me, so I don't need to be "protected" from it (let alone that I, as an adult, can protect myself very well; and if I think I need someone's help, I can still decide to actively ask for it).

I'd really prefer to be able to discuss possible misunderstandings with other users directly so they can immediately be solved without any moderative action involved. And yes, I still believe that this would be for the better for the whole atmosphere of this forum.

A little comparison: If one lives in an appartment house and some new neighbours move in, and they are noisy every night, maybe even without realizing neighbours can hear it, what's friendlier - informing them about it and discussing the problem, or calling the police which might lead to a fine? From experience I can tell you that neighborhoods where people can politely talk to each other are usually the better and more peaceful communities and more pleasant to live in.

It is best to take a step back and consider what is about to be posted to ensure it is appropriate to prevent an accident. We know (or should since it has been made clear) that "polite criticism" of the idea or topic is acceptable but not of the person in any manner, and it is not relevant to what each of us is willing to take or what we find acceptable.

The apartment analogy is excellent. Knowing the neighbor makes a big difference, especially when one thinks that, with that knowledge, they would welcome the feedback. However, it does not always turn out friendly, and we have examples of violence due to noisy neighbors. Take that to the forums, where we feel we have the protection of anonymity in that no one can cause us actual harm, and it is easy to see how such a conversation is getting out of hand. All we have to do is spend time in Cyrodiil where rage whispers after killing a character starts off out of hand.

Amottica wrote: »

It is best to take a step back and consider what is about to be posted to ensure it is appropriate to prevent an accident.

The big problem still remains: Both the interpretation of the rules as they are currently worded, as well as the idea of what is "polite behaviour" and what not (or the definition of "insult", or "politics", or "a discussion about religion", or whether a topic is "appropriate" or not) varies a lot from culture to culture. And if there are language difficulties, which is a normal thing in a big international forum, it gets even more complicated. The big question to me is what to make of this?

Amottica wrote: »

We know (or should since it has been made clear) that "polite criticism" of the idea or topic is acceptable but not of the person in any manner, and it is not relevant to what each of us is willing to take or what we find acceptable.

We're discussing our ideas for (potential) changes in moderation here, so I think it's fine to make suggestions and explain what we think would work best, as well as elaborating whether there is some general concensus we could build on.

Amottica wrote: »

The apartment analogy is excellent. Knowing the neighbor makes a big difference, especially when one thinks that, with that knowledge, they would welcome the feedback. However, it does not always turn out friendly, and we have examples of violence due to noisy neighbors. Take that to the forums, where we feel we have the protection of anonymity in that no one can cause us actual harm, and it is easy to see how such a conversation is getting out of hand. All we have to do is spend time in Cyrodiil where rage whispers after killing a character starts off out of hand.

So in case someone (we don't know a lot about) might react violently it's better not to talk with each other at all?

From my point of view, there are rules for social behaviour, seen as a common ground, and in general we first rely on them and expect others to follow them too, just as we do. One usual expectation is that strangers treat each other politely at least. Of course it happens sometimes that this unspoken rule is broken. But that doesn't mean we should expect everything ending horribly to be the normal result, no?

If things get really unfriendly, mods can still intervene.

I think a poll would be a good idea.