100% no, and why would you people want one, so you can buy items that are already in your guild store? You can't use gear above your rank like the original ah system in D3 (which they actually shut down in march because it ruined the game). What do you think you'll find in this auction house... except more found items and crafted gear...dungeon drops that are account bound and can't be traded or sold.

I bought an epic heavy chest piece at my gs and it took me through veteran content nicely until I upgraded it.

I don't see how you would sell more with an auction house, if it's a question of money. The frequency of drop rates will remain the same regardless of a new trade system being implemented, so those gloves that aren't selling now wouldn't have any greater chance with an ah.

Yes yes, many times yes.

~I have no desire to be in a large guild, nor in more than one guild. Besides that, every guild in which I've ever been a member, in any game: items are given within the guild freely or for mats. I have no desire to sell to guildies.

~I have no desire to advertise nor look for items out of the game. When I'm logged out of the game, I'm logged out.

~I find the WTS and WTB in the zone chat to be a nuisance. Zone chat should be for...chat! Hard to accomplish without an auction house (and no, a guild store is hardly the equivalent).

~I like a certain level of anonymity when selling and buying items. Shopping need not be directly social.

~I don't like when a game tries too hard to break to the mold, nor to reinvent the wheel. In an mmo, an auction house has become the standard, and for a reason (including the above stated reasons).

iari.luna.111b14_ESO wrote: »

Yes yes, many times yes.


~I don't like when a game tries too hard to break to the mold, nor to reinvent the wheel. In an mmo, an auction house has become the standard, and for a reason (including the above stated reasons).

How many MMORPGs have you played other the WoW where AH IS a standard.

I have played MMORPG since the mid 90ies and playerdriven economy, events, Roleplay, raids, are shining in the games where the setup is good.

I don't want to be rude, but are you sure ESO is for you? If you don't like interacting with people and wants to sell and buy anonymity???

What are you selling? Stole goods?

You don't have to be in a guild at all. Thats is your choice, which is one of the core features with ESO. But as most things in ESO, you choose, you get the effect of it.

If you like to buy and sell anonymity, there are plenty of NPC shops who will by anything really. Not very much gold, but you get your anonymity.

The problem here is that nobody takes into consideration using cyrodiil keeps to sell items, that is campaign wide for your alliance.
Oh but its hard to take a keep isn't it..

Or that you can leave a trading guild and find one more suited to you.
Oh but that takes effort to do..

Or you could obtain the item you require without buying it off players.
Oh but that would take time..

Every single argument that people have for the sake of having an AH, it to make their live easier, to make things quicker, to reduce effort in doing things.

Every single argument against an AH is to have things more complicated, more challenging to do, to take more time.

Take a step back and think about this without applying it to this particular situation.
1. Do you want to have fun?
2. Do you want your game to last longer?
3. Do you enjoy a challenging game?

Right, now if you answered YES to 2 or more of these, NOT having an AH is the option for you!

Cogo wrote: »

There is a proof that a server wide AH doesnt work = WoW

Wow is a fail in your eyes? I wish i could fail like that more often in life

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Action house, No way, thank you very much!

There is a proof that completely player driven economy, not just works, but adds to the game features - EVE.

EVE also has a global marketplace...

EVE does not have a global market.

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

*snip*
for some reason this games devs don't want.

Whatever.

I could care less about a poll on a game forum answered by angry gamers and clearly Zenimax could care less about that same poll or they'd address it.

We know you don't care. You have no argument otherwise. What would you do without your darling devs?

I mean, the Zenimax developer team got the whole vampire thing right from the start and let the dupe bug tank the economy in week one, they couldn't possibly do any wrong. I clearly see why you regard them so highly.

I have to assume from your response that you're not familiar with the term, "working as intended".

Issues with skills that are not working as intended need to be addressed.
Issues with botters, dupe bugs, etc are not working as intended and need to be addressed.

The absence of an Auction House is working as intended and therefore does not need to be addressed. If it wasn't working as intended I have some semblance of faith that it would be addressed.

You seem really mad about this game. I too get mad a quest bugs, botter spam, and skills not working as intended but I also have faith that in time, those issues will be resolved. But I also understand that this game does not have an Auction House and that doesn't make me mad at all. Probably because I recognize that it is working as intended. Honestly, if you think the whole thing is broken and you just can't deal with an MMO that does not have a global AH, vote with your wallet.

Or, you know, kick off another dozen threads about it and pound your fist harder on the table in impotent rage.

High mail COD fee's were working as intended? I wonder why the dev team changed them? Guild store posting fees were as intended at 10% and 15%? why are they 7% and 1% now? Do tell, I'm all ears.

YOUR devs messed up and are changing things because people complained. Nobody is complaining about the infinite horse sprint bug though, that must be on the back burner. Sorry kiddo, they are not infallible and will buckle under pressure.

And this last sentence is exactly why I'm here. I have been in game after game after game where the devs buckle under this pressure brought on by people like you.

They crusade vehemently for changes that affect everyone rather than affecting only themselves by adapting to the game or making the choice to play a different game that meets their needs, in this case one with an Auction House.

They light up forums with pure speculation and hyperbole and then once the game is changed in the manner they have so feverishly lobbied for, they leave and go on to the next game to screw up.

So here is the thing I just can't get my head around. Why do you continue to play this game if it doesn't have an Auction House? Why not go play a game that does (i.e. all the rest of them)?

Why are you so absolutely incapable of adapting to this system? Why do you want to make the economy in this MMO like every other economy in every other MMO? Why can't this one be different?

I am thankful, very thankful, that Matt Prior has and continues to ignore the people that are convinced that a game should bend to their will instead of adapting to the game they chose to play, despite whatever frustrations they might have - working as intended or not.

Great post - and it's spot on. These game-hopping locusts won't be happy until they whine and get every game turned into a boring, trite WoW clone.

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

*snip*
for some reason this games devs don't want.

Whatever.

I could care less about a poll on a game forum answered by angry gamers and clearly Zenimax could care less about that same poll or they'd address it.

We know you don't care. You have no argument otherwise. What would you do without your darling devs?

I mean, the Zenimax developer team got the whole vampire thing right from the start and let the dupe bug tank the economy in week one, they couldn't possibly do any wrong. I clearly see why you regard them so highly.

I have to assume from your response that you're not familiar with the term, "working as intended".

Issues with skills that are not working as intended need to be addressed.
Issues with botters, dupe bugs, etc are not working as intended and need to be addressed.

The absence of an Auction House is working as intended and therefore does not need to be addressed. If it wasn't working as intended I have some semblance of faith that it would be addressed.

You seem really mad about this game. I too get mad a quest bugs, botter spam, and skills not working as intended but I also have faith that in time, those issues will be resolved. But I also understand that this game does not have an Auction House and that doesn't make me mad at all. Probably because I recognize that it is working as intended. Honestly, if you think the whole thing is broken and you just can't deal with an MMO that does not have a global AH, vote with your wallet.

Or, you know, kick off another dozen threads about it and pound your fist harder on the table in impotent rage.

High mail COD fee's were working as intended? I wonder why the dev team changed them? Guild store posting fees were as intended at 10% and 15%? why are they 7% and 1% now? Do tell, I'm all ears.

YOUR devs messed up and are changing things because people complained. Nobody is complaining about the infinite horse sprint bug though, that must be on the back burner. Sorry kiddo, they are not infallible and will buckle under pressure.

And this last sentence is exactly why I'm here. I have been in game after game after game where the devs buckle under this pressure brought on by people like you.

They crusade vehemently for changes that affect everyone rather than affecting only themselves by adapting to the game or making the choice to play a different game that meets their needs, in this case one with an Auction House.

They light up forums with pure speculation and hyperbole and then once the game is changed in the manner they have so feverishly lobbied for, they leave and go on to the next game to screw up.

So here is the thing I just can't get my head around. Why do you continue to play this game if it doesn't have an Auction House? Why not go play a game that does (i.e. all the rest of them)?

Why are you so absolutely incapable of adapting to this system? Why do you want to make the economy in this MMO like every other economy in every other MMO? Why can't this one be different?

I am thankful, very thankful, that Matt Prior has and continues to ignore the people that are convinced that a game should bend to their will instead of adapting to the game they chose to play, despite whatever frustrations they might have - working as intended or not.

Great post - and it's spot on. These game-hopping locusts won't be happy until they whine and get every game turned into a boring, trite WoW clone.

How does having an AH turn it into a WoW clone? By that logic, its already a WoW clone because it has orcs and fire spells FFS, where do you people come up with this drivel?

Well, they really don't want a standard AH either way. The latest ask anything has some more details why. Silly if you ask me. People are just going to Work around it by using zone chat as the trade channel, shouting WTS to get what they want to sell to a broader audience than their limited guild store audience.

And it is even more limited than people want to think. You list an item up in the guild store, you are only listing the item for THAT guilds people to see. A max of 500 out of 2500 over 5 guilds, if your guilds are even maxed out which mine aren't, out of However many people are playing this game which is probably greater than 2500. Then you might be in 1 or more guilds that aren't trade guilds, so your desired trade audience is even smaller.

Since they are dead set on this system tho, im going to stop caring. It will still be stupid in my eyes and i'll continue to be annoyed by it. Maybe I'll even join in the WTS spam and annoy myself /shrug. It will last as long as their stubbornness does.

Seriously tho... this system destroys the reason to be in a real guild. Some people said in-game that there is no guild loyalty too, being able to be in 5 guilds. They shouldn't even call these guilds the way it is.

Victoria_Marquis wrote: »

YES please we badly need an open world wide Auction House. As a crafter I'm in the max five guilds allowed, all the guilds have between 100 - 400 people, and all are store auction house guilds.
Even with this I have a very hard time trying to fine al the crafting materials that I need, most likely due to the limited number of "Active Players" that put up materials and resources to buy.

.

Same here. 500 people is just too small of a pool to offer a reliable market.

Cogo wrote: »

The economy works, people get to interact with eachtoher. Not just sell/buy but even trade.

This isn't "interaction" in any sense that most of us are concerned with. It's like saying I have friends in real life because I had to open my mouth to tell the girl at the gas station whether I was paying credit or debit. Maybe a quick comment could lead to something else that leads to friendship or activity partners or so forth, but the vast majority of the time, it leads to items and money changing hands then never seeing each other again.

There is a proof that a server wide AH doesnt work = WoW

The only servers in WoW where the AH doesn't work are the servers where it was nearly impossible to find another living player. But take my WoW server where (before virtual servers) my AH had literally 10-20 items on it. Now pretend 19 of those items were in another guild's store -- the problem gets even worse, not magically better.

Avidus wrote: »

The problem here is that nobody takes into consideration using cyrodiil keeps to sell items, that is campaign wide for your alliance.

There are 10 campaigns, each of which has 18 keeps. That's 180 keeps *in the game*. Any given guild has up to 500 players (I'm not actually sure, different sources report 300, 400, 500, so let's use the big number). That means *at most* 90,000 players can use the keeps to get their wares out to the entire alliance, assuming each player is in only one guild, each guild only has one keep, and each guild is full.

Realistically, those assumptions are flawed, meaning far fewer players will, in practice, be able to sell to the "entire alliance". Furthermore, most people are unlikely to have access to all 10 campaigns, and aren't going to want to hop through all 10 campaigns and through every single keep in each campaign, so the "entire alliance" bit is also a huge stretch.

Then is the issue that the serious pvp guilds (the ones who will actually be capturing and holding keeps) aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of players or guilds, and realistically, capturing a keep won't be "hard", it will be practically impossible for the average player. Let alone holding said keep for any serious amount of time.

Or that you can leave a trading guild and find one more suited to you.

It's not about finding that one guild that matches us as players. It's about leaving and joining a dozen guilds a day just for the hope that we find that one item we were actually looking for. It isn't "hard", it's tedium that detracts substantially from any amount of fun that we're having.

Or you could obtain the item you require without buying it off players.

That's what the current system drives us to do. Because there's no real source of player goods, for many things it's simply far easier to go farm it ourselves. There's nothing wrong with that (I do it anyways for most items in most games), but it's totally irrelevant to a discussion of better methods of trading goods between players.

having an AH . . . easier . . . quicker . . . reduce effort
against an AH . . . more complicated . . . more challenging . . . more time

Complexity for the sake of complexity isn't "challenge", and having the AH would reduce the effort required for things that are boring, tedious nonsense, so we have more time to do the things we actually enjoy.

If you happen to enjoy hawking your wares in zone chat, or relogging a dozen times trying to find an instance with a seller who has what you need, then an AH won't prevent that. People in WoW and EQ2 do it all the time because they prefer that method of trading. But for those of us who hate it, the AH system minimizes the grief caused by trying to find a buyer or seller, and lets us get back to the rest of the game we enjoy.

I do not want a global auction house for reasons already thoroughly discussed. However, LOCAL auction houses may be a reasonable compromise. Every major city (Vulkhel Guard, Skywatch, Elden Root, etc.) could have one that is accessible to anyone in that town, but is not connected to any other town or auction house. This would help open up trade while keeping prices localized and limit market saturation.

really don't need 1 you have guild shops to sell in

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.

In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.

This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.

Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.


EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...

Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.

I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.

All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.

The items remain rare because the Guild Store system insulates markets against a sudden and unpredictable influx of goods that would flood the market and destroy the value of the goods.

If this influx of surplus goods was allowed to enter the market without any restraints, everyone who wants the item will buy it for less than it's worth, and none of the sellers will turn a profit. Once the buyers have what they want, demand drops off and there is a still a surplus. The items continue to drop at a rate that makes the market unsustainable due to market saturation(everyone already has the item, and it continues to drop for them in-game as well, so they don't need to return to the market to buy more).

Guild stores can be regulated by the players in the guild in such a way to regulate the influx of goods to prevent individual markets for the goods from collapsing. When a market reach saturation, the sellers can shift the goods to a different market where they can continue to sell. In a global AH, once the market becomes saturated the supply will always exceed the demand because every possible buyers is also potential supplier. And players can not help regulate the market to prevent dupers from artificially creating a huge surplus on the rarest of items and effectively destroy the market for that item.

The game doesn't need this type of out-of-control large-scale market. While it will benefit buyers for a short term, one by one, items of moderate value will reach market saturation, demand will plummet and there will be no means to regulate supply until demand returns. The surplus remains constant and the market for that individual item is forever destroyed. This happens in every MMO that has a large-scale AH/market. Players that don't understand why think the market is fine because it takes several years for this type of problem to reach critical mass. The game devs try to slow down the process by creating gold sinks and incentives to dump surplus goods but ultimately, the end result is the market collapses because the surplus never allows supply and demand to reach the equilibrium point where buyers start buying the item again at a price sellers can afford to sell at. In order for a market to be sustainable, it needs to be able to leverage shortages against surplus. If a surplus becomes a constant condition, this is impossible.

An economy with unlimited potential to produce goods without regulation in such a a way that shortages cannot be leveraged against a surplus is not a healthy economy and cannot sustain itself. A global AH is a quick fix to allow you to buy everything you want right now, with no regard to the status/health of the economy in the future. The only way to actually see this happen though, is to stick with a game long enough to see the market mature, and every MMO I've ever played, the market never matured because of this uncontrollable influx of goods and the players eventually hop over to the next new MMO and repeat the process of killing the economy all over again because they can't understand how their short-term "wants" differ from the game's long-term "needs".

alphawolph wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

Drops rates do not limit the existence of goods, only the frequency with which they appear. If every player in the game has good fortune with RNG, then even rare items have the potential to appear an infinite number of times.

In economics, there are assumptions made about the availability of goods and they simply cannot be infinite possibilities for a product to be manufactured. If you continue to make wooden cabinets you eventually will run out of trees. ESO doesn't have this problem because the trees are digital and can be harvested over and over. Every single item in ESO can appear over and over and over an infinite number of times regardless of drop-rate.

This leads to Market Saturation. The best way to combat this is to limit the availability of goods through artificial means, which means not every player can have access to the same market.

Basic economics simply do not apply. The market in ESO is nothing comparable to the real world because the products are infinitely available if there are enough players participating in any one market. The logical conclusion is small independent markets. When a player's goods risk saturating a small market, they can take those goods to a different small market where there is less competition and continue to sell, whereas in a global market, the goods would never be sold because everyone that wants one, has it already, and there are tens of thousands of the same item already listed on the market daily that will only continue to drop in value because the number of people buying them is greatly dwarfed by the number of people holding that item and trying to sell it.


EDIT: I think I can explain it a little better...

Think of it this way. Basic econ says that when supply exceeds demand, we have a surplus and prices will fall until the price reaches an equilibrium point at which supply meets demand again. When the surplus begins, you need to stop manufacturing the product until that equilibrium is reached or exceeded, or supply doesn't drop off with the new lower price. In an MMO the bulk of these items are drops, not manufactured (crafted, and even crafted goods use dropped items as materials). Regardless of drop rate and rarity if the creation of the items continues, the surplus still exists and prices continue to drop until the item is worthless on the market. With small, independent markets available though, the surplus can be shifted to a market with less supply allowing everyone to continue participating in the market. A single centralized market pushed out the small to medium sellers and allows only the large wealthy sellers to profit.

I'm not saying the Guild Store system is perfect. I'm just saying I don't want to see WalMart in my MMO.

All I know is this Nacirema: for these items to be so infinite as you make out I sure do have a hard time finding them up for sale. So they aren't very infinite in any of my guild stores. They are damn rare actually and hardly ever available.

The items remain rare because the Guild Store system insulates markets against a sudden and unpredictable influx of goods that would flood the market and destroy the value of the goods.

If this influx of surplus goods was allowed to enter the market without any restraints, everyone who wants the item will buy it for less than it's worth, and none of the sellers will turn a profit. Once the buyers have what they want, demand drops off and there is a still a surplus. The items continue to drop at a rate that makes the market unsustainable due to market saturation(everyone already has the item, and it continues to drop for them in-game as well, so they don't need to return to the market to buy more).

Guild stores can be regulated by the players in the guild in such a way to regulate the influx of goods to prevent individual markets for the goods from collapsing. When a market reach saturation, the sellers can shift the goods to a different market where they can continue to sell. In a global AH, once the market becomes saturated the supply will always exceed the demand because every possible buyers is also potential supplier. And players can not help regulate the market to prevent dupers from artificially creating a huge surplus on the rarest of items and effectively destroy the market for that item.

The game doesn't need this type of out-of-control large-scale market. While it will benefit buyers for a short term, one by one, items of moderate value will reach market saturation, demand will plummet and there will be no means to regulate supply until demand returns. The surplus remains constant and the market for that individual item is forever destroyed. This happens in every MMO that has a large-scale AH/market. Players that don't understand why think the market is fine because it takes several years for this type of problem to reach critical mass. The game devs try to slow down the process by creating gold sinks and incentives to dump surplus goods but ultimately, the end result is the market collapses because the surplus never allows supply and demand to reach the equilibrium point where buyers start buying the item again at a price sellers can afford to sell at. In order for a market to be sustainable, it needs to be able to leverage shortages against surplus. If a surplus becomes a constant condition, this is impossible.

An economy with unlimited potential to produce goods without regulation in such a a way that shortages cannot be leveraged against a surplus is not a healthy economy and cannot sustain itself. A global AH is a quick fix to allow you to buy everything you want right now, with no regard to the status/health of the economy in the future. The only way to actually see this happen though, is to stick with a game long enough to see the market mature, and every MMO I've ever played, the market never matured because of this uncontrollable influx of goods and the players eventually hop over to the next new MMO and repeat the process of killing the economy all over again because they can't understand how their short-term "wants" differ from the game's long-term "needs".

How many years does it take? wow is fine and has been around for a decade.

Ask a new player to go to the AH and buy a full set low level green items on a server that has been around for 2+ years and see how "fine" they find the experience to be.