Yes, magsorc still needs a tankiness adjustment, but people also need to adapt.

StaticWave · January 5

I've been seeing nerf Sorc threads and I think they're over-reacting. Yes, magSorc is still too tanky for their archetype and still needs to be toned down at the highest level of PvP, but a lot of the complaints are simply a learn to play issue. For example, take a look at this recent 1v4 video I had in Cyrodiil. In this video, I fought a magSorc, a stamSorc, a bow NB ganker, and a Jesus Beam spammer :

https://youtu.be/Kux3g_VVuro

Breaking down the time stamps, we can see that:
- At 0:07, my armor buff was down and I took 4396 damage from a non crit Curse
- At 0:30, my armor buff was down and I took 5637 damage from a non crit Frag
- At 0:38, I took 4801 damage from a crit Frag
- At 0:47, I took 9916 damage from a crit Frag by the stamSorc and 5760 damage from a non crit Merciless Resolve by the NB
- At 0:48, I took a full Meteor + Streak combo by the stamSorc and only lost 2k HP

The most threatening moment in that video was at 0:47 when I took a 10k Frag and 5.7k Merciless Resolve, followed by a Meteor + Streak combo and I dropped to 58% HP for half a second, then instantly went back to full HP lol. Not once did I feel like I was going to die. You know why? Because I actually adapted and built tankier while still having high damage. At 0:13, I used Dawnbreaker and hit both those Sorcs for 9.1k and 9.8k NON CRIT damage. There is not a single chance any of them could have killed me in that fight, but I could kill them. That is why they ran away at the end. They knew they had no chance.

This is how most Cyrodiil fights are. Very rarely will you run into actual top tier magSorcs, and trust me, you will know it when you see one. The majority of Sorcs you face in Cyrodiil will be exactly like those 2 Sorcs in my video. Those Sorcs are most likely running meta builds too, but it's through sheer skill difference and theory crafting that I was able to shrug off their damage and force them to run away. If you die to these Sorcs, then the first thing you need to do is to update your build and relearn how to fight them. Magsorc is very powerful in the hands of a good player, but there are builds that will still farm them easily. You just need to discover that build via theory crafting and improve your mechanical skills to the point where the majority of your fights vs magsorcs won't feel extremely difficult.

xylena_lazarow · January 5

Mid or lesser MagSorcs also have tend to have no idea what to do if you pack your own ranged skills. The full range Dazing Soul stun destroys their rhythm and combos, even just attack weaving Ele Sus is enough damage to throw them off their game when they go in expecting "haha I can hit them but they can't hit me."

Mayrael · January 5

All I see is fear of incoming nerf hammer

StaticWave · January 5

Mayrael wrote: »

All I see is fear of incoming nerf hammer

And it won’t affect me

TechMaybeHic · January 5

You say that then LOS ranged, which is the best defense against range, then the end was an enemy sorc streaking away once alone. Lol

I get your point, but there are a lot off issues here still. They might be running meta builds in this video, but certainly not playing to strengths

Gilvoth · January 5

StaticWave wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

All I see is fear of incoming nerf hammer

And it won’t affect me

you are right, well said.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 5

To be honest this is an issue across the board. 90% of people in Cyrodiil or BGs have no clue how to *actually* build for PvP, and just slap on the meta sets without taking the time to set up their resists and recoveries or learn their defensive rotation/good defensive movement.

This is more an issue of a lack of resources. The game doesn't have a good tutorial that actually teaches mechanics of the game, and PvP requires knowledge of mechanics.

PvP itself has been so neglected that there aren't many content creators left, so 90% of the resources to learn PvP online are either outdated or simply don't exist for newer skills/classes.

StaticWave · January 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

You say that then LOS ranged, which is the best defense against range, then the end was an enemy sorc streaking away once alone. Lol

I get your point, but there are a lot off issues here still. They might be running meta builds in this video, but certainly not playing to strengths

That is the point….I used all advantages I could get. After all, it was a 1v4, with 2 Sorcs and a NB ganker. The odds were not in my favor, but through the use of LoS and proper defense, I was able to shrug off their damage.

Turtle_Bot · January 6

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

To be honest this is an issue across the board. 90% of people in Cyrodiil or BGs have no clue how to *actually* build for PvP, and just slap on the meta sets without taking the time to set up their resists and recoveries or learn their defensive rotation/good defensive movement.

This is more an issue of a lack of resources. The game doesn't have a good tutorial that actually teaches mechanics of the game, and PvP requires knowledge of mechanics.

PvP itself has been so neglected that there aren't many content creators left, so 90% of the resources to learn PvP online are either outdated or simply don't exist for newer skills/classes.

Exactly this. TBH. It's also becoming an issue in PvE too. So many players just copying the meta builds/strats without understanding the nuances/reasons behind using them and failing hard in content that should otherwise be relatively easy to clear with a more fitting build/strategy.

It's something the game really should teach the players much better than it ever has done. It doesn't have to be throwing players into hard mode trials the instant they start, but for example adding all the combat mechanics to the tutorials (like they used to have in wailing prison) where the player has to move out of the circle or behind a wall to avoid an attack/AoE, dodge roll an incoming attack, block an incoming attack, heal themselves to survive a hit, recast their buffs, etc. to teach the players these mechanics early when there's no pressure to get it right immediately.

Then have these things reinforced throughout all the story quests where bosses will each require using a couple of those different mechanics to successfully survive/beat them. The story itself is the perfect place to teach/train/reinforce these concepts because there's no penalty to failing outside of restarting the specific encounter and trying again.

This at least would prepare most players for things harder than overload and allow them to just casually develop those skills over time as they play/enjoy the game, allowing the players to learn the mechanics naturally, and then be able to easily apply them further if they choose to go on to do trials/vet/HM/PvP/etc. content.

It would help lessen the cliff-like learning curve that currently exists when moving up from overload/normal dungeons into vet/HM/DLC content and PvP.

Avran_Sylt · January 6

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage…

Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

xylena_lazarow · January 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 6

Mayrael wrote: »

All I see is fear of incoming nerf hammer

Especially once you realize that other class had its skill totally changed out of the blue after 10 years. Nothing is set in stone it seems. Even things that players thought are established.

StaticWave wrote: »

And it won’t affect me

I mean... nerfs do affect everyone, whatever we like it or not. It might not affect you at 1st or might be less noticeable for you, but it will affect you. That is why players who have been playing this game long do prefer buffs. Cuz they experienced nerfs & are empathic.

With nerfs it is always the same story. Some one who does not have the whole picture (does not play all classes / has preferred play-style /thinks certain mechanic should not in in a game etc) - says something is OP, cries long enough to be noticed by Devs, other 5 people with the same "problem" join the discussion and eventually nerfs happen.

And while the ones who originally called for it might be happy, somewhere out there is a player who was using something that got nerfed is confused & sad.

The worst part are so called "ricochet" nerfs, where some spec that were fine, do suffer the most cuz for example they were more stam or mag focused & something that might be bearable for other type of build, forces them co completely change their play style or stop playing.

Second worst part is that (if something was indeed a problem), then original culprit remains in game - broken proc sets or new scribing skills that caused the power creep & stuff to over perform...

At the end of the day - games should be fun. With nerfs, we lose options to play and game becomes boring and homogenised.
Yes, it will take some time, but if history is a teacher, then Sorc will probably get nerfed at some point, since right now "public opinion" sees Sorc for the most part as the only S-tier class.

xylena_lazarow · January 6

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Especially once you realize that other class had its skill totally changed out of the blue after 10 years. Nothing is set in stone it seems. Even things that players thought are established.

Jabs

Avran_Sylt · January 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Fair, so he was just choosing a select video of a circumstance where not all factors are known (such as the skill and builds of the comparative players).

And tbh I didn't really see much outplay apart from the other players just being... well, bad.

He was at least using Vigor, and there is something to be said as well with Healing crits sourced via the same scaling stat as Damaging crits (just the crit stat in general).

But... Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

xylena_lazarow · January 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

ITT here I do agree Sorc still needs some sort of nerf, but there are several factors that players disagree on, so best leave untangling that to the devs. Sorc directly relies on healing the least of any class, so blanket nerfing solo player healing would severely widen the gap between Sorc and everyone else, among other bad things.

StaticWave · January 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage…

Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Actually, only 2 of my heals scaled with stacking damage (Vigor and Vibrant Shroud). In terms of healing power, I’m at a disadvantage compared to Warden, NB, and Templar.

StaticWave · January 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Fair, so he was just choosing a select video of a circumstance where not all factors are known (such as the skill and builds of the comparative players).

And tbh I didn't really see much outplay apart from the other players just being... well, bad.

He was at least using Vigor, and there is something to be said as well with Healing crits sourced via the same scaling stat as Damaging crits (just the crit stat in general).

But... Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

The average skill in Cyro is surprisingly pretty low. Most Cyrodiil players behave like that, even the ones with maxed out Alliance rank. Here’s another clip of me 1v7ing:

https://youtu.be/7sNQTDWaOM0?si=ahsYQCyU8MaW0XDw

Mainly using line of sight and building decently tanky is enough for Cyrodiil. Sorc’s true power is displayed better by top tier players. The average magsorc won’t be able to tank multiple people unfortunately.

gamma71 · January 6

I see this every day in cyrodill almost always sorcs nowaday. I don't chase them around what's the point ?

moo_2021 · January 7

gamma71 wrote: »

I see this every day in cyrodill almost always sorcs nowaday. I don't chase them around what's the point ?

I always chase them.

It feels good when they run out of resource and die under my axe, at least when I got a group to back me.

No reward the game can give that is better than hunting down streakers and cloaking nbs.

katorga · January 7

What are these fights you speak of?

All I see in Cyrodil NA are ball groups spamming pulls, northern storm and whirling blades with a mix of contingency scribes for perma shields or damage. They farm zergs, pugs, mythical “op” small group/ solos

moo_2021 · January 7

katorga wrote: »

What are these fights you speak of?

All I see in Cyrodil NA are ball groups spamming pulls, northern storm and whirling blades with a mix of contingency scribes for perma shields or damage. They farm zergs, pugs, mythical “op” small group/ solos

and I lag hard whenever they show up on my screen. It's impossible to have any real-time action or counter.

Avran_Sylt · January 8

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage…

Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Actually, only 2 of my heals scaled with stacking damage (Vigor and Vibrant Shroud). In terms of healing power, I’m at a disadvantage compared to Warden, NB, and Templar.

Oh I didn't realize you had a scaling burst heal, thought it was just Vigor's DoT heal. (Not too familiar with all the sorc abilities rn).

Oh, sup fellow AD.

So you use Vibrant Shroud while in close combat (where you could be interrupted), and to amp your Dark Deal when you disengage/LoS (which costs less and scales better the less offensive stats you have given its flat heal) lower enemy damage, while having Vigor Ticking in the background (also amped via Vibrant). And of course the Psijiic undo.

Out of curiosity, what's the resource effectiveness comparison between your dark deal and your Vibrant Shroud while fully buffed?

(How much HP do you heal per point of magicka spent for each ability? Though more of a moot point against evenly matched opponents, but more imbalanced against those that don't have ranged interrupts)

StaticWave · January 8

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So you use Vibrant Shroud while in close combat (where you could be interrupted), and to amp your Dark Deal when you disengage/LoS (which costs less and scales better the less offensive stats you have given its flat heal) lower enemy damage, while having Vigor Ticking in the background (also amped via Vibrant). And of course the Psijiic undo.

Precisely. I use Vibrant Shroud as my main burst heal, and Dark Deal as a pseudo burst heal/resource sustain/damage buff when I'm safe around a corner.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's the resource effectiveness comparison between your dark deal and your Vibrant Shroud while fully buffed?

(How much HP do you heal per point of magicka spent for each ability? Though more of a moot point against evenly matched opponents, but more imbalanced against those that don't have ranged interrupts)

Blood Magic:
- Restores 3366 HP at 33k HP

Dark Deal:
- Costs 2430 magicka
- Restores 8160 HP

Vibrant Shroud:
- Costs 4374 magicka
- Restores 11131 HP

Both abilities proc the Blood Magic passive, so the total HP restored for Dark Deal and Vibrant Shroud are 11526 and 14497, respectively. Hence, Dark Deal will restore 4.74 HP for 1 point of magicka spent, and Vibrant Shroud will restore 3.3 HP for 1 point of magicka spent.

However, this doesn't paint the full picture because Vibrant Shroud is an instant cast ability whereas Dark Deal is a 1 second channel ability. Vibrant Shroud will allow you to block cast and can't be interrupted, whereas Dark Deal can't be block casted and can be interrupted. In a real fight, Vibrant Shroud will provide MUCH higher HP for 1 point of magicka spent because you can block incoming direct damage, whereas all of the HP restored by casting Dark Deal would have likely be removed because you can't block incoming damage while using this ability.

Vibrant Shroud costs 1944 more magicka, but heals for more and is instant cast. I can block before casting Vibrant Shroud and proc the Persistence passive, which will further reduce my Vibrant Shroud cost by 15%, bringing it down to 3742 magicka. The new cost difference will now be 1312. For an extra 1.3k cost, I get to heal for more, block damage while healing, amplify my heals even further with Minor Vitality, and reduce incoming damage with Major Maim. It's much better than Dark Deal as a burst heal ability.

Navaac223 · January 8

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Fair, so he was just choosing a select video of a circumstance where not all factors are known (such as the skill and builds of the comparative players).

And tbh I didn't really see much outplay apart from the other players just being... well, bad.

He was at least using Vigor, and there is something to be said as well with Healing crits sourced via the same scaling stat as Damaging crits (just the crit stat in general).

But... Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

The average skill in Cyro is surprisingly pretty low. Most Cyrodiil players behave like that, even the ones with maxed out Alliance rank. Here’s another clip of me 1v7ing:

https://youtu.be/7sNQTDWaOM0?si=ahsYQCyU8MaW0XDw

Mainly using line of sight and building decently tanky is enough for Cyrodiil. Sorc’s true power is displayed better by top tier players. The average magsorc won’t be able to tank multiple people unfortunately.

Uhh hey, any chance I can know what build you're using ? I'm getting bored of playing stamcro and I'd like to play stamsorc a bit. Rn I'm using the classic proc build with maarselok but I feel way too squishy for not enough damage :

https://youtu.be/Tfo4LDEDR7Q

kiwi_tea · January 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

ITT here I do agree Sorc still needs some sort of nerf, but there are several factors that players disagree on, so best leave untangling that to the devs. Sorc directly relies on healing the least of any class, so blanket nerfing solo player healing would severely widen the gap between Sorc and everyone else, among other bad things.

To my mind the biggest issue with (Mag)Sorc is the near perfect synergy between Ward, Streak and Dark Conversion tends to offset pretty much any sustain issues Sorc might ever have. The downside of Dark Conversion is it's a cast and can be interrupted, but on a sorc that's a non-issue. When MagSorcs get interrupted casting for sustain, they tend to start to struggle. It's my main way of managing against them, but it's not like I carry a ranged interrupt on every (or even many) builds. The one weakness of magsorc sustain under pressure is almost entirely offset by the fact they're also a stun-and-run playstyle who, if they can LOS even moderately well, are pretty much the class *least* likely to be punished for a skill with a long cast time. There are lots of tweaks they could/should do, but it's hard to say which and what combination. Several come to my mind.

- Get the heal off Hardened Ward entirely. Non-pet Sorcs can Vigor under massive shield and they. will. be. just. fine. It's a tiny heal and losing it would barely impact them, tbh. It's just insulting that it's there.

- Increase the Streak cooldown mag cost just massively. Make Sorcs have to think much harder about when/if they can Streak off. Make them have to kite moderately more strategically than at present.
- Increase the cast time on Dark Conversion slightly (I hate this idea, but it'd be very impactful).

Either way, a balancing of the synergy between those three skills is what needs to be managed, but it needs to be managed without nerfing sorcs into the ground, which I fear will be what will happen eventually.

StaticWave · January 8

Navaac223 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Fair, so he was just choosing a select video of a circumstance where not all factors are known (such as the skill and builds of the comparative players).

And tbh I didn't really see much outplay apart from the other players just being... well, bad.

He was at least using Vigor, and there is something to be said as well with Healing crits sourced via the same scaling stat as Damaging crits (just the crit stat in general).

But... Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

The average skill in Cyro is surprisingly pretty low. Most Cyrodiil players behave like that, even the ones with maxed out Alliance rank. Here’s another clip of me 1v7ing:

https://youtu.be/7sNQTDWaOM0?si=ahsYQCyU8MaW0XDw

Mainly using line of sight and building decently tanky is enough for Cyrodiil. Sorc’s true power is displayed better by top tier players. The average magsorc won’t be able to tank multiple people unfortunately.

Uhh hey, any chance I can know what build you're using ? I'm getting bored of playing stamcro and I'd like to play stamsorc a bit. Rn I'm using the classic proc build with maarselok but I feel way too squishy for not enough damage : https://youtu.be/Tfo4LDEDR7Q

Yea sure! I'll post the UESP Build Editor link here, and a written version of the build.

Link:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=652229

Sets:

- Essence Thief front bar
- Rallying Cry back bar
- Balorgh monster set
- Death Dealer’s Fete/Markyn/Saints of the Seducer mythics

Armor Weight:

- 3 heavy, 3 medium, and 1 light for the armor pieces
- The belt must be light armor, and the chest must be heavy armor

Weapon Type:

- Dualwield maces front bar and ice staff back bar

Traits:

- Reinforced for heavy armor pieces, and impenetrable for the remaining armor pieces
- Nirnhoned mainhand and sharpened offhand for the maces, and defending for the ice staff
- All protective for the jewelries

Enchants:

- All tri-stat glyphs on the body pieces
- All weapon damage glyphs for the jewelries
- Diseased and absorbed stamina glyphs for the maces, and berserker glyph for the ice staff

Race:

- Imperial/Orc/Nord/Khajiit/Dark Elf all work

Attribute Points:

- For maximum damage, put 64 points into stamina
- For maximum tankiness, put 64 points into HP
- For a mix of both, do 50% into HP and the other 50% into stamina

Food:

- For best value, use Orzoga’s Smoke Bear Haunch
- For maximum damage, use Bewitched Sugar Skulls
- For a mix of both, use Artaeum Takeaway Broth

Potions:

- Must use Essence of Spell Critical for Major Prophecy

Champion Points:

- Blue CPsDuelist Rebuff, Iron Clad, Resillience, Fighting Finesse
- Red CPs: Survival Instincts, Pain’s Refuge, Sustained by Suffering, Fortified

Skills:

- Front bar: Blood for Blood, Bound Armaments, Quick Cloak, Crit Surge, Hurricane, Dawnbreaker of Smiting
- Back bar: Streak, Dark Deal, Vigor, Elemental Susceptibility, Vibrant Shroud, Temporal Guard

Note: You can swap Streak front bar if you are more offensive. You can also use Thrive in Chaos dualwield ult for outnumbered fights

Advantages of this build:
- High mitigation (33k+ resistances, 4k+ crit resist, Major Evasion, Major Maim, Minor Protection, and 3 defensive blue CPs)
- High mobility (Major + Minor Expedition and Streak)
- High single target burst damage (Bound Armaments and B4B can deal a total of 15-17k burst damage when crit)
- Rewards risky playstyle (B4B does more damage when your HP gets lower, which allows players with good mechanics to land 10k+ B4B hits)
- Decent DoT pressure (Burning, Hemorrhage, Quick Cloak, Hurricane)
- High recovery (B4B costing HP and Essence Thief)
- Decent group utility (Streak and Vibrant Shroud)

Disadvantages:
- Requires high APM (you need to perfect the light attack + spammable + bash weave, and use Bound Armaments every 4s to achieve maximum pressure)
- Does not offer good AoE damage (since your only AoE damage abilities are Quick Cloak, Hurricane, and Dawnbreaker)
- Requires getting used to picking up Essence Thief (Essence Thief can be unfamiliar for people)
- Can be inconsistent when kiting (can’t pick up Essence Thief consistently)
- No execute (this is an issue for most Sorcs)

In my opinion, this is currently the best stat build for stamsorc. It has everything you need, but isn’t easy to use and requires you to already be decent at the class, making it hard to be abused by everyone.

MincMincMinc · January 8

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage…

Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Zos should have inversely scaled heals based on max stats instead of damage. Currently doing damage scales about 50% more with a line of WD vs a line of Max stam........ Heals should scale 50% more with one line of max stam instead. However zos stated that they wanted to do this, but didnt because they were worried about pulling a fastball on players. LOL

kiwi_tea wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

ITT here I do agree Sorc still needs some sort of nerf, but there are several factors that players disagree on, so best leave untangling that to the devs. Sorc directly relies on healing the least of any class, so blanket nerfing solo player healing would severely widen the gap between Sorc and everyone else, among other bad things.

To my mind the biggest issue with (Mag)Sorc is the near perfect synergy between Ward, Streak and Dark Conversion tends to offset pretty much any sustain issues Sorc might ever have. The downside of Dark Conversion is it's a cast and can be interrupted, but on a sorc that's a non-issue. When MagSorcs get interrupted casting for sustain, they tend to start to struggle. It's my main way of managing against them, but it's not like I carry a ranged interrupt on every (or even many) builds. The one weakness of magsorc sustain under pressure is almost entirely offset by the fact they're also a stun-and-run playstyle who, if they can LOS even moderately well, are pretty much the class *least* likely to be punished for a skill with a long cast time.

Most of why the issues exist are due to PVE sustain changes. Zos tried to mimic warden's sustain Netch with darkdeal by making it more over time instead of a flat return. Sorc used to based on a deficit instead of a surplus sustain model. Sorc was supposed to never have perfect constant regen. You were supposed to always be in a constant state of running out of resources. This is why sorc had the max stat bonuses and cost reduction bonuses. This is why shields and max mag builds were a thing. The purpose was that you'd gas out and then have to come up for air in a compromised state.

Except we are in a game where sustain is practically free. My current build has over 2k on both recoveries without a single sustain set, mundus, cp, glyph choice.

Avran_Sylt · January 8

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So you use Vibrant Shroud while in close combat (where you could be interrupted), and to amp your Dark Deal when you disengage/LoS (which costs less and scales better the less offensive stats you have given its flat heal) lower enemy damage, while having Vigor Ticking in the background (also amped via Vibrant). And of course the Psijiic undo.

Precisely. I use Vibrant Shroud as my main burst heal, and Dark Deal as a pseudo burst heal/resource sustain/damage buff when I'm safe around a corner.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's the resource effectiveness comparison between your dark deal and your Vibrant Shroud while fully buffed?

(How much HP do you heal per point of magicka spent for each ability? Though more of a moot point against evenly matched opponents, but more imbalanced against those that don't have ranged interrupts)

Blood Magic:
- Restores 3366 HP at 33k HP

Dark Deal:
- Costs 2430 magicka
- Restores 8160 HP

Vibrant Shroud:
- Costs 4374 magicka
- Restores 11131 HP

Both abilities proc the Blood Magic passive, so the total HP restored for Dark Deal and Vibrant Shroud are 11526 and 14497, respectively. Hence, Dark Deal will restore 4.74 HP for 1 point of magicka spent, and Vibrant Shroud will restore 3.3 HP for 1 point of magicka spent.

However, this doesn't paint the full picture because Vibrant Shroud is an instant cast ability whereas Dark Deal is a 1 second channel ability. Vibrant Shroud will allow you to block cast and can't be interrupted, whereas Dark Deal can't be block casted and can be interrupted. In a real fight, Vibrant Shroud will provide MUCH higher HP for 1 point of magicka spent because you can block incoming direct damage, whereas all of the HP restored by casting Dark Deal would have likely be removed because you can't block incoming damage while using this ability.

Vibrant Shroud costs 1944 more magicka, but heals for more and is instant cast. I can block before casting Vibrant Shroud and proc the Persistence passive, which will further reduce my Vibrant Shroud cost by 15%, bringing it down to 3742 magicka. The new cost difference will now be 1312. For an extra 1.3k cost, I get to heal for more, block damage while healing, amplify my heals even further with Minor Vitality, and reduce incoming damage with Major Maim. It's much better than Dark Deal as a burst heal ability.

Oh I get that Dark deal isn’t a burst heal, but what it is, is resource efficient, especially with the added stamina return which is what it seems to be used for.

But then that means in general your more reliable burst heal is still one that scales with damage and the whole “heals scale with damage” general topic.

Navaac223 · January 8

StaticWave wrote: »

Navaac223 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Hmm, adapted and built tankier while still dealing high damage… Seems kinda like the whole Healing scales with DPS issue.

Very wrong. OP outplayed those players by leveraging Streak and leaning heavily into skills that do NOT scale with damage stats: Surge and Dark Deal, which are fixed heal values that only scale with % healing buffs and crit.

Fair, so he was just choosing a select video of a circumstance where not all factors are known (such as the skill and builds of the comparative players).

And tbh I didn't really see much outplay apart from the other players just being... well, bad.

He was at least using Vigor, and there is something to be said as well with Healing crits sourced via the same scaling stat as Damaging crits (just the crit stat in general).

But... Your sentiment with your comment, I guess Sorc is fine and doesn't need tweaks?

The average skill in Cyro is surprisingly pretty low. Most Cyrodiil players behave like that, even the ones with maxed out Alliance rank. Here’s another clip of me 1v7ing:

https://youtu.be/7sNQTDWaOM0?si=ahsYQCyU8MaW0XDw

Mainly using line of sight and building decently tanky is enough for Cyrodiil. Sorc’s true power is displayed better by top tier players. The average magsorc won’t be able to tank multiple people unfortunately.

Uhh hey, any chance I can know what build you're using ? I'm getting bored of playing stamcro and I'd like to play stamsorc a bit. Rn I'm using the classic proc build with maarselok but I feel way too squishy for not enough damage : https://youtu.be/Tfo4LDEDR7Q

Yea sure! I'll post the UESP Build Editor link here, and a written version of the build.

Link:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=652229

Sets:
- Essence Thief front bar
- Rallying Cry back bar
- Balorgh monster set
- Death Dealer’s Fete/Markyn/Saints of the Seducer mythics

Armor Weight:
- 3 heavy, 3 medium, and 1 light for the armor pieces
- The belt must be light armor, and the chest must be heavy armor

Weapon Type:
- Dualwield maces front bar and ice staff back bar

Traits:
- Reinforced for heavy armor pieces, and impenetrable for the remaining armor pieces
- Nirnhoned mainhand and sharpened offhand for the maces, and defending for the ice staff
- All protective for the jewelries

Enchants:
- All tri-stat glyphs on the body pieces
- All weapon damage glyphs for the jewelries
- Diseased and absorbed stamina glyphs for the maces, and berserker glyph for the ice staff

Race:
- Imperial/Orc/Nord/Khajiit/Dark Elf all work
Attribute Points:
- For maximum damage, put 64 points into stamina
- For maximum tankiness, put 64 points into HP
- For a mix of both, do 50% into HP and the other 50% into stamina

Food:
- For best value, use Orzoga’s Smoke Bear Haunch
- For maximum damage, use Bewitched Sugar Skulls
- For a mix of both, use Artaeum Takeaway Broth

Potions:
- Must use Essence of Spell Critical for Major Prophecy

Champion Points:
- Blue CPsDuelist Rebuff, Iron Clad, Resillience, Fighting Finesse
- Red CPs: Survival Instincts, Pain’s Refuge, Sustained by Suffering, Fortified

Skills:
- Front bar: Blood for Blood, Bound Armaments, Quick Cloak, Crit Surge, Hurricane, Dawnbreaker of Smiting
- Back bar: Streak, Dark Deal, Vigor, Elemental Susceptibility, Vibrant Shroud, Temporal Guard

Note: You can swap Streak front bar if you are more offensive. You can also use Thrive in Chaos dualwield ult for outnumbered fights

Advantages of this build:
- High mitigation (33k+ resistances, 4k+ crit resist, Major Evasion, Major Maim, Minor Protection, and 3 defensive blue CPs)
- High mobility (Major + Minor Expedition and Streak)
- High single target burst damage (Bound Armaments and B4B can deal a total of 15-17k burst damage when crit)
- Rewards risky playstyle (B4B does more damage when your HP gets lower, which allows players with good mechanics to land 10k+ B4B hits)
- Decent DoT pressure (Burning, Hemorrhage, Quick Cloak, Hurricane)
- High recovery (B4B costing HP and Essence Thief)
- Decent group utility (Streak and Vibrant Shroud)

Disadvantages:
- Requires high APM (you need to perfect the light attack + spammable + bash weave, and use Bound Armaments every 4s to achieve maximum pressure)
- Does not offer good AoE damage (since your only AoE damage abilities are Quick Cloak, Hurricane, and Dawnbreaker)
- Requires getting used to picking up Essence Thief (Essence Thief can be unfamiliar for people)
- Can be inconsistent when kiting (can’t pick up Essence Thief consistently)
- No execute (this is an issue for most Sorcs)

In my opinion, this is currently the best stat build for stamsorc. It has everything you need, but isn’t easy to use and requires you to already be decent at the class, making it hard to be abused by everyone.

thanks, now these magsorcs don't stand a chance

StaticWave · January 9

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So you use Vibrant Shroud while in close combat (where you could be interrupted), and to amp your Dark Deal when you disengage/LoS (which costs less and scales better the less offensive stats you have given its flat heal) lower enemy damage, while having Vigor Ticking in the background (also amped via Vibrant). And of course the Psijiic undo.

Precisely. I use Vibrant Shroud as my main burst heal, and Dark Deal as a pseudo burst heal/resource sustain/damage buff when I'm safe around a corner.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's the resource effectiveness comparison between your dark deal and your Vibrant Shroud while fully buffed?

(How much HP do you heal per point of magicka spent for each ability? Though more of a moot point against evenly matched opponents, but more imbalanced against those that don't have ranged interrupts)

Blood Magic:
- Restores 3366 HP at 33k HP

Dark Deal:
- Costs 2430 magicka
- Restores 8160 HP

Vibrant Shroud:
- Costs 4374 magicka
- Restores 11131 HP

Both abilities proc the Blood Magic passive, so the total HP restored for Dark Deal and Vibrant Shroud are 11526 and 14497, respectively. Hence, Dark Deal will restore 4.74 HP for 1 point of magicka spent, and Vibrant Shroud will restore 3.3 HP for 1 point of magicka spent.

However, this doesn't paint the full picture because Vibrant Shroud is an instant cast ability whereas Dark Deal is a 1 second channel ability. Vibrant Shroud will allow you to block cast and can't be interrupted, whereas Dark Deal can't be block casted and can be interrupted. In a real fight, Vibrant Shroud will provide MUCH higher HP for 1 point of magicka spent because you can block incoming direct damage, whereas all of the HP restored by casting Dark Deal would have likely be removed because you can't block incoming damage while using this ability.

Vibrant Shroud costs 1944 more magicka, but heals for more and is instant cast. I can block before casting Vibrant Shroud and proc the Persistence passive, which will further reduce my Vibrant Shroud cost by 15%, bringing it down to 3742 magicka. The new cost difference will now be 1312. For an extra 1.3k cost, I get to heal for more, block damage while healing, amplify my heals even further with Minor Vitality, and reduce incoming damage with Major Maim. It's much better than Dark Deal as a burst heal ability.

Oh I get that Dark deal isn’t a burst heal, but what it is, is resource efficient, especially with the added stamina return which is what it seems to be used for.

But then that means in general your more reliable burst heal is still one that scales with damage and the whole “heals scale with damage” general topic.

Well yes and no. While Vibrant Shroud does scale with damage, Blood Magic passive instead scales with HP. I could in fact build 45k+ HP and Vibrant Shroud would still heal for a similar amount despite its tooltip being lower. Building tankier is actually more beneficial for stamsorc because of that reason. You have Dark Deal & Surge providing fixed value heals, and Blood Magic providing a heal scaling with max HP. You can think of it like a max HP Warden.

LittlePinkDot · January 10

StaticWave wrote: »

I've been seeing nerf Sorc threads and I think they're over-reacting. Yes, magSorc is still too tanky for their archetype and still needs to be toned down at the highest level of PvP, but a lot of the complaints are simply a learn to play issue. For example, take a look at this recent 1v4 video I had in Cyrodiil. In this video, I fought a magSorc, a stamSorc, a bow NB ganker, and a Jesus Beam spammer :

https://youtu.be/Kux3g_VVuro

Breaking down the time stamps, we can see that:
- At 0:07, my armor buff was down and I took 4396 damage from a non crit Curse
- At 0:30, my armor buff was down and I took 5637 damage from a non crit Frag
- At 0:38, I took 4801 damage from a crit Frag
- At 0:47, I took 9916 damage from a crit Frag by the stamSorc and 5760 damage from a non crit Merciless Resolve by the NB
- At 0:48, I took a full Meteor + Streak combo by the stamSorc and only lost 2k HP

The most threatening moment in that video was at 0:47 when I took a 10k Frag and 5.7k Merciless Resolve, followed by a Meteor + Streak combo and I dropped to 58% HP for half a second, then instantly went back to full HP lol. Not once did I feel like I was going to die. You know why? Because I actually adapted and built tankier while still having high damage. At 0:13, I used Dawnbreaker and hit both those Sorcs for 9.1k and 9.8k NON CRIT damage. There is not a single chance any of them could have killed me in that fight, but I could kill them. That is why they ran away at the end. They knew they had no chance.

This is how most Cyrodiil fights are. Very rarely will you run into actual top tier magSorcs, and trust me, you will know it when you see one. The majority of Sorcs you face in Cyrodiil will be exactly like those 2 Sorcs in my video. Those Sorcs are most likely running meta builds too, but it's through sheer skill difference and theory crafting that I was able to shrug off their damage and force them to run away. If you die to these Sorcs, then the first thing you need to do is to update your build and relearn how to fight them. Magsorc is very powerful in the hands of a good player, but there are builds that will still farm them easily. You just need to discover that build via theory crafting and improve your mechanical skills to the point where the majority of your fights vs magsorcs won't feel extremely difficult.

So tell me how do I adapt my tanky Magicka Tentacular dread Arcanist to do as much damage as your sorc?