PVP is becoming unbearable due solely to sorc being giga broken

H_E

they have far too much for so little
streak - decide when they take fights, so will never die if they don't want to. unblockable stun with no warning, reaction time and no intended counter play to this ability other than be a sorc your self as charges take tiem to reach and theyve now out ranged your charge on the 2nd cast

broken shield button, minimum of a 15k shield and 5k heal after pvp nerfs, single handedly the strongest defensive tool in the game by a large margin with how much protection it offers for how cheap it is, it would still be worthwhile to cast at double the cost

overlord la stacking, overlord ult+crushing weapon vs a fully buffed targets can still hit for 15k per la if they are not blocking they can stack too many things on their la's that removes interraciality, overlord ult need to remove the added damage from itself on top of la and make in not able to stack with another la modification prevent la hitting for 20k+ in pvp

precast execute that does aoe damage, an execute you cant react to since it hits as soon as it reaches the threshold, wheres the roll the execute hit or heal and block, nope jsut dead as soon as 20% no counter play

i see a running theme of sorc has no counterplay to most of its abilities and need its or need to be gutted as it just becomes an out stated instead of out played
do something cuz pvp (not pvsorc) is quite fun

MincMincMinc

H_E wrote: »

they have far too much for so little
streak - decide when they take fights, so will never die if they don't want to. unblockable stun with no warning, reaction time and no intended counter play to this ability other than be a sorc your self as charges take tiem to reach and theyve now out ranged your charge on the 2nd cast

broken shield button, minimum of a 15k shield and 5k heal after pvp nerfs, single handedly the strongest defensive tool in the game by a large margin with how much protection it offers for how cheap it is, it would still be worthwhile to cast at double the cost

overlord la stacking, overlord ult+crushing weapon vs a fully buffed targets can still hit for 15k per la if they are not blocking they can stack too many things on their la's that removes interraciality, overlord ult need to remove the added damage from itself on top of la and make in not able to stack with another la modification prevent la hitting for 20k+ in pvp

precast execute that does aoe damage, an execute you cant react to since it hits as soon as it reaches the threshold, wheres the roll the execute hit or heal and block, nope jsut dead as soon as 20% no counter play

i see a running theme of sorc has no counterplay to most of its abilities and need its or need to be gutted as it just becomes an out stated instead of out played
do something cuz pvp (not pvsorc) is quite fun

Streak can entirely be countered by strafing. Or using a gapcloser to chase, 100% of the time you will outsustain someone who repeatedly streaks.

Hardened is overtuned for sure and the heal should not be on the skill, but hardly compared to other class heals like polar wind. Zos could have put the heal on one of the other useless skills in sorc. Putting the heals on a hot/buff skill for allies is missing in sorc. Ideally if they want to keep the heal, it should only trigger if the shield lasts the full duration. Or go a step further and make the resto shield and light armor shield comparable skills again. Shields are still messed up from the terrible combat direction post summerset 2018>elsweyr2019

The execute is hardly an issue, if you are dying to a precast combo that is L2P. If you see a sorc do nothing except defend for 40s and then suddenly cast an execute..... you can probably assume they are doing a combo within the next 4s.

H_E

streak out passes gap closers as charges have travel time and need the target to be in range, turn a corner and now you out of range or roll after the stream or have them cast gap closer first then can streak twice before they are off gcd and out of danger free on consequence, so can reset a fight with dark deal to have full stam and mag in a few seconds
this ability in its current function has no counter play as at any time they can escape and reset the fight, it need a ~4 seccond lock out period after cast in pvp so its possible to catch a sorc and they cant escape with only mag while the other person has to drain stam charging and sprinting ultil they cant break free

harden ward provided the most defense on 1 cast on a non ultimate with the exception of the arc shield for the 1st second, that's just a fact with raw amount of health and or shield it restores, nut the arc shield need 3 crux to give a similar heal, sorc shield does not. It needs atleast a 30% nerf to both the shield and heal value or dramatic cost increase

the execute while not as oppressive as some other tools in sorc's kit still doesn't have counter play, and saying dont get low is counterplay is just honestly amazing idea from a gameplay standpoint, just dont get low and you wont die what a design philosophy that really gives the tools to react to that ability

MincMincMinc

H_E wrote: »

streak out passes gap closers as charges have travel time and need the target to be in range, turn a corner and now you out of range or roll after the stream or have them cast gap closer first then can streak twice before they are off gcd and out of danger free on consequence, so can reset a fight with dark deal to have full stam and mag in a few seconds
this ability in its current function has no counter play as at any time they can escape and reset the fight, it need a ~4 seccond lock out period after cast in pvp so its possible to catch a sorc and they cant escape with only mag while the other person has to drain stam charging and sprinting ultil they cant break free

harden ward provided the most defense on 1 cast on a non ultimate with the exception of the arc shield for the 1st second, that's just a fact with raw amount of health and or shield it restores, nut the arc shield need 3 crux to give a similar heal, sorc shield does not. It needs atleast a 30% nerf to both the shield and heal value or dramatic cost increase

the execute while not as oppressive as some other tools in sorc's kit still doesn't have counter play, and saying dont get low is counterplay is just honestly amazing idea from a gameplay standpoint, just dont get low and you wont die what a design philosophy that really gives the tools to react to that ability

Most gap closers are 22m(cylinder radius) where streak is only 15m(XYZ coordinate - your X/Z distance will shorten based on the Y height change). If you are having a hard time gap closing, that is also a L2P issue.

Darkdeal was already made ridiculously inefficient. Once again refer to warden for a better skill.

I dont get why you are complaining that the counterplay to an execute is to not get in execute range..... that is how they all work. That is the only point of execute skills.

---

Sorc is just the embodiment of the old game. If you do not actively respond to their skill casts, you get caught out. Most of the new classes/updates, you can practically just fight by ignoring what the other player is doing with minimal punishment.

H_E

actually delusional if you think dark deal is bad, you can just say your a sorc main and need it to be even easier to play since never l2p

Call a bull netch to your side, which restores 4416 Stamina to you over 25 seconds and grants you Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%. Every 5 seconds, the netch removes 1 negative effect from you. If no negative effects are removed you instead increase your damage done by 5% for 5 seconds

Bargain with darkness to restore 8000 Health and 3600 Stamina instantly, and an additional 2400 Stamina over 10 seconds. The exchange also grants you Minor Berserk and Minor Force for 10 seconds, increasing your damage done by 5% and Critical Damage by 10%.

dark deal is more stam 1 cast and a heal and minor force and berserk vs less stam in over twice the duration for 5 ticks a 1 purge and brutality in what crazy made up world is netch better


and with sorc how do you react to la's that what they do now, stack too many buffs and la. block and roll every la? only reason you think you can ignore most other classes is they have counter play with some being more react able than others, sorc does not, it doesnt matter what they sorc does as there is no appropriate reaction to what they do

rlindsey912nub18_ESO

Shields need the streak treatment and streak needs its stun removed or needs to be blockable I know that much for sure

the1andonlyskwex

Sorc execute is dodgeable. You just need to dodge when it is cast, not when it explodes.

warm_blanket

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Hardened is overtuned for sure and the heal should not be on the skill...ideally if they want to keep the heal, it should only trigger if the shield lasts the full duration.

Liking the general direction you're going with that idea. Similar to rally, where it isn't viable to spam while taking hits.

MSorc's mobile & ranged playstyle kind of complements a limitation like that.

i11ionward

H_E wrote: »

they have far too much for so little
streak - decide when they take fights, so will never die if they don't want to. unblockable stun with no warning, reaction time and no intended counter play to this ability other than be a sorc your self as charges take tiem to reach and theyve now out ranged your charge on the 2nd cast

broken shield button, minimum of a 15k shield and 5k heal after pvp nerfs, single handedly the strongest defensive tool in the game by a large margin with how much protection it offers for how cheap it is, it would still be worthwhile to cast at double the cost

overlord la stacking, overlord ult+crushing weapon vs a fully buffed targets can still hit for 15k per la if they are not blocking they can stack too many things on their la's that removes interraciality, overlord ult need to remove the added damage from itself on top of la and make in not able to stack with another la modification prevent la hitting for 20k+ in pvp

precast execute that does aoe damage, an execute you cant react to since it hits as soon as it reaches the threshold, wheres the roll the execute hit or heal and block, nope jsut dead as soon as 20% no counter play

i see a running theme of sorc has no counterplay to most of its abilities and need its or need to be gutted as it just becomes an out stated instead of out played
do something cuz pvp (not pvsorc) is quite fun

The sorcerer's power is now concentrated in the Hardened Ward. A year ago, the sorcerer lacked this shield but had the same offensive potential they have today, and no one raised concerns about their offensive abilities. The overpowered Hardened Ward allows the sorcerer to fully realize their offensive potential. If the shield is nerfed, the sorcerer will need to allocate more resources and time to defense, which will naturally diminish their attacking potential.

Regarding the Hardened Ward, I propose introducing a 1.5-second delay before the heal activates. This adjustment would preserve the shield's strength while preventing players from relying on it excessively for healing.

As for the other sorcerer skills mentioned, I believe no changes are necessary.

StaticWave

H_E wrote: »

actually delusional if you think dark deal is bad, you can just say your a sorc main and need it to be even easier to play since never l2p

Call a bull netch to your side, which restores 4416 Stamina to you over 25 seconds and grants you Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%. Every 5 seconds, the netch removes 1 negative effect from you. If no negative effects are removed you instead increase your damage done by 5% for 5 seconds

Bargain with darkness to restore 8000 Health and 3600 Stamina instantly, and an additional 2400 Stamina over 10 seconds. The exchange also grants you Minor Berserk and Minor Force for 10 seconds, increasing your damage done by 5% and Critical Damage by 10%.

dark deal is more stam 1 cast and a heal and minor force and berserk vs less stam in over twice the duration for 5 ticks a 1 purge and brutality in what crazy made up world is netch better


and with sorc how do you react to la's that what they do now, stack too many buffs and la. block and roll every la? only reason you think you can ignore most other classes is they have counter play with some being more react able than others, sorc does not, it doesnt matter what they sorc does as there is no appropriate reaction to what they do

Dark Deal is pretty bad as a sustain skill though. Most Sorcs run with 1.5k-1.8k regen so that sustain isn't really needed most of the time. What people mainly use Dark Deal for is the "oh crap" moment when they're too low on stam from overcommitting or to keep up Minor Force and Minor Berserk, which only last 10s. If you don't like how short the major buffs in the scribing system are, then you won't like how short these 2 minor buffs are either. 10s is actually a downside because a lot of the times you have to recast it every 10s and risk being interrupted for no reason, wasting 2k mag and 3k stam in the process to break free lol.

silky_soft

All shields and heals should be a 0.3s cast time. Would solve lots of problems in pvp if you could interupt.

Streak needs the stun removed and the speed limited to player max sprint speed.

johnJrant

Lol Sorc came to the topic of imbalance Sorc To say that this is not the case. double lol.
Dark Deal is pretty dab yap? well Necr does not have any skills for res resources. Bad shield treatment? Well, the necromancer has a debuff instead of a shield. it also doesn't have passiv for resources, damage, or crit. I think don't have to continue.

I absolutely agree with the author of the post. However, I want the necromancer update and not the reduction of other classes. But I agree about Sorc.

I consider the players on Sorc exclusively either as guys who have given up or guys who want to rest. I really understand the second one. I have a sorka with the nickname "NecroButler".

johnJrant

I'll leave it here. I even covered up the nickname of the one in question, although it's about tactics. Here's the guy on the sorc from the green team, he died the least, well done. Did he benefit the team? No, his friends died more often because of it. Red team didn't pay attention to him and let him go if they didn't catch up the first time. All the damage and all the suffering went to the rest of the team. This is a parasitic type of behavior, it is quite logical that the price for such a thing should be higher and the benefits from such opportunities should be less.

LittlePinkDot

How about a 3 second cooldown on streak since my Arcanists portal skill for some reason has a 3 second cooldown

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Darkdeal was already made ridiculously inefficient.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dark Deal is pretty bad as a sustain skill though.

Can't really agree ever since they changed it so that channeled skills can't be interrupted while you have CC immunity. Get stunned, pop Ward and/or Vigor, then go nuts spamming Dark Exchange. It's also part of what enables the obnoxious play pattern of indefinite disengage/reengage that often makes fighting open world Sorcs a pointless waste of time.

VinnyGambini

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

How about a 3 second cooldown on streak since my Arcanists portal skill for some reason has a 3 second cooldown

No

I have better solution:

Make streak an ULTIMATE with 70-80 ult cost. Remove overload. Also remove heal from ward when battle spirit is active.

THIS is the real way to fix this absolutely broken class.

Thumbless_Bot

VinnyGambini wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

How about a 3 second cooldown on streak since my Arcanists portal skill for some reason has a 3 second cooldown

No

I have better solution:

Make streak an ULTIMATE with 70-80 ult cost. Remove overload. Also remove heal from ward when battle spirit is active.

THIS is the real way to fix this absolutely broken class.

100%

Only thing I would add is a small decrease in ranged damage the further you are from your target, for everyone, but especially sorc. So, if you hit for z within 7 meters, you hit for 99% at 8 meters, 98 at 8 meters and so on. Something like this anyway. The game already has this code with point blank snipe, so it is an easy adjustment in theory

xylena_lazarow

It doesn't matter whether they do it by cooldown or limiting Streak some other way, there's no point for us to argue between player solutions that the devs ignore anyway. Just communicate that Streak is a problem because trying to fight against a Sorc that does the indefinite disengage/reengage is unfun garbage.

MincMincMinc

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Darkdeal was already made ridiculously inefficient.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dark Deal is pretty bad as a sustain skill though.

Can't really agree ever since they changed it so that channeled skills can't be interrupted while you have CC immunity. Get stunned, pop Ward and/or Vigor, then go nuts spamming Dark Exchange. It's also part of what enables the obnoxious play pattern of indefinite disengage/reengage that often makes fighting open world Sorcs a pointless waste of time.

I meant efficient wise for sustain. Before the sorc kit was designed to be low regen. Which is why there were so many max resource buffs and cost reduction. The whole concept was that you would play a class always in a deficit sustain model. This acted as a cap for streak spamming and ward spamming. No matter what if you were in combat your resources would slowly be depleting unless you stopped casting and came up for air.

After they made warden with netch..... which as a whole the class vastly outperformed for the first 2-3 years it was out. Zos decided to make Darkdeal partly mimic netch's return over time. So now instead of people dark deal spamming and being interrupted, players now had stat RETURN which would let them spam aggravating skills like streak even more.

To top it all off, zos has let sustain power creep so hard that I barely put any investment other than food into sustain. Even on my red tree cp I do not select sustain on my sorc. There is a reason why nobody needs max stam/mag anymore and is slotting 45k+hp on every build.

johnJrant

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

100%

Only thing I would add is a small decrease in ranged damage the further you are from your target, for everyone, but especially sorc. So, if you hit for z within 7 meters, you hit for 99% at 8 meters, 98 at 8 meters and so on. Something like this anyway. The game already has this code with point blank snipe, so it is an easy adjustment in theory

7 meters is the range of a mele attack. Then the descent distance should start from 15 meters.

Avran_Sylt

MincMincMinc wrote: »

H_E wrote: »

they have far too much for so little
streak - decide when they take fights, so will never die if they don't want to. unblockable stun with no warning, reaction time and no intended counter play to this ability other than be a sorc your self as charges take tiem to reach and theyve now out ranged your charge on the 2nd cast

broken shield button, minimum of a 15k shield and 5k heal after pvp nerfs, single handedly the strongest defensive tool in the game by a large margin with how much protection it offers for how cheap it is, it would still be worthwhile to cast at double the cost

overlord la stacking, overlord ult+crushing weapon vs a fully buffed targets can still hit for 15k per la if they are not blocking they can stack too many things on their la's that removes interraciality, overlord ult need to remove the added damage from itself on top of la and make in not able to stack with another la modification prevent la hitting for 20k+ in pvp

precast execute that does aoe damage, an execute you cant react to since it hits as soon as it reaches the threshold, wheres the roll the execute hit or heal and block, nope jsut dead as soon as 20% no counter play

i see a running theme of sorc has no counterplay to most of its abilities and need its or need to be gutted as it just becomes an out stated instead of out played
do something cuz pvp (not pvsorc) is quite fun

Streak can entirely be countered by strafing. Or using a gapcloser to chase, 100% of the time you will outsustain someone who repeatedly streaks.

Hardened is overtuned for sure and the heal should not be on the skill, but hardly compared to other class heals like polar wind. Zos could have put the heal on one of the other useless skills in sorc. Putting the heals on a hot/buff skill for allies is missing in sorc. Ideally if they want to keep the heal, it should only trigger if the shield lasts the full duration. Or go a step further and make the resto shield and light armor shield comparable skills again. Shields are still messed up from the terrible combat direction post summerset 2018>elsweyr2019

The execute is hardly an issue, if you are dying to a precast combo that is L2P. If you see a sorc do nothing except defend for 40s and then suddenly cast an execute..... you can probably assume they are doing a combo within the next 4s.

Does streak stun at both points or just the landing point?

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Sorc execute is dodgeable. You just need to dodge when it is cast, not when it explodes.

Ah, yes, preplan survivability 4s in advance compared to all other executes where you at least have 1 GCD after reaching low health to start blocking.

(though I'm not against such an execute existing, but the execute itself should have a block able component: Like lightning priming an area when it's about to strike, it gives an AoE indication that it's about to strike 1s after it triggers from the execute threshold)

Thumbless_Bot

johnJrant wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

100%

Only thing I would add is a small decrease in ranged damage the further you are from your target, for everyone, but especially sorc. So, if you hit for z within 7 meters, you hit for 99% at 8 meters, 98 at 8 meters and so on. Something like this anyway. The game already has this code with point blank snipe, so it is an easy adjustment in theory

7 meters is the range of a mele attack. Then the descent distance should start from 15 meters.

Yeah, something like this. The point is, if I can hit you but you can't hit me, that's fine, but I shouldn't be able to hit you nearly as hard from 35 meters as you can hit me from 7 meters. This happens now but it's just not balanced. The delta is like 10 percent if that. This would be fine if you were close enough for me to go towards you and engage without being burned down on my way there with snipe/overload/etc. Just for you to cloak/streak away and repeat.

Maybe 15 is that, idk.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Darkdeal was already made ridiculously inefficient.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dark Deal is pretty bad as a sustain skill though.

Can't really agree ever since they changed it so that channeled skills can't be interrupted while you have CC immunity. Get stunned, pop Ward and/or Vigor, then go nuts spamming Dark Exchange. It's also part of what enables the obnoxious play pattern of indefinite disengage/reengage that often makes fighting open world Sorcs a pointless waste of time.

Channels are just dumb in general, even if it's uninterruptable during CC immunity.

Zama666

I think

"An unexpected error internal error has occurred...." is far worse...

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Darkdeal was already made ridiculously inefficient.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dark Deal is pretty bad as a sustain skill though.

Can't really agree ever since they changed it so that channeled skills can't be interrupted while you have CC immunity. Get stunned, pop Ward and/or Vigor, then go nuts spamming Dark Exchange. It's also part of what enables the obnoxious play pattern of indefinite disengage/reengage that often makes fighting open world Sorcs a pointless waste of time.

If only CC immunity was reliable in this game...

The amount of times I have had full CC immunity (immo pot or break free) and dark deal still gets interrupted is... frustrating (to put it in terms that are allowed to be posted on the forums).

Dark deal is ok. It's a decent sustain tool now that sorc isn't dependent on it as the burst heal, but it still has a lot of issues, and before ward (or heal soul) relying on it as the class heal was... also frustrating... especially with lag or high ping.

Now that sorc is no longer dependent on dark deal as a burst heal, I'd rather it got reworked to be a pure sustain/buff skill instead of keeping it as the heal + sustain + small buff skill that it currently is.

dark_hunterxmg

Here we go again with this conversation. Haha. We all know that a max mag sorcerer is the most powerful class in the game. If it wasn't, we wouldn't see so many of them and the meta chasers wouldn't run them like they do. They have everything. Mobility with AOE stun, the ability to tank multiple players attacks while being offensive, and enough damage to take out max resistance players with 1-2 combos. It's the easy button. It comes with 25k tool tips for crystal fragment procs that no one seems to be talking about. Instead we talk about "MuH MeRcILEsS rEsOlVe"

When talking about sorcerer heals, why do so many people forget that sorc already had a burst heal from Matriarch? Is it because of the double bar inconvenience?

It's fine for a class to be strong, but it doesn't need to be so much stronger than every other one.

Oblivion_Protocol

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Here we go again with this conversation. Haha. We all know that a max mag sorcerer is the most powerful class in the game. If it wasn't, we wouldn't see so many of them and the meta chasers wouldn't run them like they do. They have everything. Mobility with AOE stun, the ability to tank multiple players attacks while being offensive, and enough damage to take out max resistance players with 1-2 combos. It's the easy button. It comes with 25k tool tips for crystal fragment procs that no one seems to be talking about. Instead we talk about "MuH MeRcILEsS rEsOlVe"

When talking about sorcerer heals, why do so many people forget that sorc already had a burst heal from Matriarch? Is it because of the double bar inconvenience?

It's fine for a class to be strong, but it doesn't need to be so much stronger than every other one.

First, I’ve never seen a 25k tooltip for Crystal Frags in PvP that came without sacrificing something. Merciless Resolve has a built-in weapon/spell damage buff on a class with the capacity to crit at will.

Second, Sorc isn’t that strong. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. The majority (not all, but the majority) of people wiping the floor with you on Sorc could most likely do it on another class. Sorc is popular, so you’re seeing a lot of them, which means more skilled players on Sorc.

I’ll admit that when the Ward change first occurred, Sorc was a menace. But now? The only thing that bothers me about Sorcs is how easily they can run away when I’m killing them.

Saying that Sorc has everything is patently false. If you can run down a Streaking Sorc, you can most likely kill them because they tanked their magicka running away. If your defenses are high enough, you can survive their burst because most builds have got little to no penetration. Overload is such a buggy mess, I’m not even sure why that factors in to why Sorc is broken, but if you can dodge roll, you can avoid Overloaded light attacks.

xylena_lazarow

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Second, Sorc isn’t that strong. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. The majority (not all, but the majority) of people wiping the floor with you on Sorc could most likely do it on another class. Sorc is popular, so you’re seeing a lot of them, which means more skilled players on Sorc.

So why do you think so many skilled players choose to play Sorc then?

Even a mid Sorc can sit at max range taking pot shots at your back, Streak spam on eye contact far out of gap closer or RAT range to disengage, then casually reengage a few seconds later for more max range pot shots at your back. And keep doing this the entire keep battle or BG, even if you chase the Sorc down all you've done is take yourself out of the fight to chase one guy into the middle of nowhere. There needs to be a much higher cost for disenage/reengage like they did with NB.

Afterip

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Second, Sorc isn’t that strong.

You are bad comediant, do you know it?

Just_Attivi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether they do it by cooldown or limiting Streak some other way, there's no point for us to argue between player solutions that the devs ignore anyway. Just communicate that Streak is a problem because trying to fight against a Sorc that does the indefinite disengage/reengage is unfun garbage.

I especially love when the sorc cant kill you, and because of indefinite fight resets on their end, you cant kill them, so you try to just walk away after a 10 minute duel going no where, and they instead harass you across the map, keeping you in combat and streaking away to reset any time you turn around to fight them again, repeat repeat, because their ego cant take a hit. it is unfortunately a common behavior of seemingly every sole sorc you find on those winding cyrdoiilic back roads lol.