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Moderation and censorship is out of hand
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Oceanchanter✭✭✭AtriaKhorist wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?
Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.
If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.
Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.
They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.
Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?
I can post my own experiences and opinions here just like everyone else.
[snip]
I've been on this forum for a very short time, and I noticed that pattern already as well.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 6, 2025 7:27PM6 -
wilykcat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?
Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.
If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.
Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.
They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.
Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?
I can post my own experiences and opinions here just like everyone else.
[snip]
I've been on this forum for a very short time, and I noticed that pattern already as well.
I need to learn how to properly have a debate better. I might as well stop posting in this discussion. I didn't realize some of my comments came out that way and I had no intention of causing others stress. I apologize.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 6, 2025 7:27PM2 -
VirantisSoul ShrivenHi @ZOS_Kevin, I really want to say something about all of this, but... I can't! This is my 3rd comment on this forum. My first two will help you understand why I can't speak. Anyway, moderation is completely out of hand.6
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Oceanchanter✭✭✭Now I see why the topic of forum moderation comes up constantly, and I'm slowly but surely convinced both forum and in-game moderation are intertwined topics.
Seen the post, replied to it after all, it wasn't out of the ordinary or egregious in my opinion.
10 -
Beilin_Balreis_Colcan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Re: forum moderation - the forum rules say that you can send an email to a particular email address with any queries about forum moderation. Guess what happens when you send to that email address? Absolutely nothing. I emailed that address twice, with **polite** queries about a few forum rules, and never got any reply. @ZOS_Kevin , is the email address community@elderscrollsonline.com monitored by anybody? Here's an excerpt from the forum rules:Below is a brief explanation of our community rules and expectations for specific topics and situations. If you have any questions about our Community Code of Conduct, please email The Elder Scrolls Online Team at community@elderscrollsonline.com.PC(Steam) / EU / play from Melbourne, Australia / avg ping 3909 -
malistorr✭✭✭✭I play almost only PVP and cussing in party chat and tea-bagging is something that happens every few-seconds at least. For people who can't stand adult content I'd suggest that online games where you interact with other humans maybe aren't for you. Maybe someone can make an online RPG game that's designed for people who want only G-rated content and experiences? This game says rated M Mature 17+ because of blood and gore, sexual themes, use of alcohol, and voilence
So user be warned.5 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I play almost only PVP and cussing in party chat and tea-bagging is something that happens every few-seconds at least. For people who can't stand adult content I'd suggest that online games where you interact with other humans maybe aren't for you. Maybe someone can make an online RPG game that's designed for people who want only G-rated content and experiences? This game says rated M Mature 17+ because of blood and gore, sexual themes, use of alcohol, and voilence
So user be warned.
I thought the game was rated M for mature because you needed to act mature. I was way off.16 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I thought the game was rated M for mature because you needed to act mature. I was way off.
Best post ever.PCNA3 -
AtriaKhorist✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?
Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.
If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.
Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.
They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.
Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?
I can post my own experiences and opinions here just like everyone else.
[snip]
I've been on this forum for a very short time, and I noticed that pattern already as well.
I need to learn how to properly have a debate better. I might as well stop posting in this discussion. I didn't realize some of my comments came out that way and I had no intention of causing others stress. I apologize.
[edited to remove quote]
Thank you. I appreciate you taking it seriously.
And mind, I'm not suggesting you should stop posting in here in general.
And on other matters... @ZOS_Kevin I kindly ask you to look at this moderation case as a peak example.Grim Focus Permaglow is still a problem: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641376/grim-focus-permaglow5 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭AtriaKhorist wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »Can we please focus on in-game moderation, and leave forum moderation issues to another thread?
Are we allowed to open a new one? Or could the old one be reopened? People definitely seem to feel a need to discuss that topic further.
If one has issues or questions about forum moderation there is an option to DM the community manager or another moderator and they can help with that.
Moderators do not reply to direct communication. They never have.
They did for me. It may take them a bit as they are very busy at their job. I have seen them reply to certain topics on the forums too but that is in certain cases. I don't count a response to a thread moderation though. I count it as a little gentle reminder 😊.
Can you please accept that the experience of others may differ from your own?
I can post my own experiences and opinions here just like everyone else.
[snip]
I've been on this forum for a very short time, and I noticed that pattern already as well.
I need to learn how to properly have a debate better. I might as well stop posting in this discussion. I didn't realize some of my comments came out that way and I had no intention of causing others stress. I apologize.
[edited to remove quote]
Thank you. I appreciate you taking it seriously.
And mind, I'm not suggesting you should stop posting in here in general.
And on other matters... @ZOS_Kevin I kindly ask you to look at this moderation case as a peak example.
I agree.
This is a peak example.
And the type of situation I want to avoid with in-game moderation.
This is just my interpretation of the situation I witnessed.
I've read the comment and IMO it wasn't insulting in any way, nor was breaking ToS.
Not in my opinion at least.
It was criticizing the way Wylicat words their opinion, how those comments come off to someone who reads them.
I highly doubt Wilycat flagged the comment as offensive since they acknowledged it.
I wouldn't mind my way of commenting things being criticized.
I mince my words too much, I write walltexts, I make minor spelling mistakes, sometimes it's too chaotic, too much "for the record" and "this is just my opinion".
And I know that.
I'm an artist, I know how to take criticism.
I'd certainly not welcome moderators snipping those criticisms in my name without me asking for it.
Especially if they didn't contain any ad hominems.5 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was always amused by all the game beds with built-in restraints. Guess we can't talk about what those are for.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance3 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really wish that context would matter (and if a user's intention is unclear, one could always ask, of course - not that every answer would be necessarily truthful, but in some cases it would help to distinguish). I know it's harder and more time-consuming for mods to check that (and AI or even just a simple word filter can't differenciate that at all), but things may have a completely different meaning depending on the situation.
What could possibly sound brash or even aggressive towards a stranger could be harmless or even positive as friendly banter, as a joke, or in roleplay. (Jokes I rarely make anymore, because I don't want to get banned for making a slightly taunting remark towards a friend that I know makes them smile, but some onlooker who doesn't know us at all might find unfriendly and report. And roleplay is a minefield anyway, especially if one's playing a morally questionable character.)
The same way, it is possible to be passive aggressive, insulting or disruptive without using any swear words or slurs at all. And I'm sure that trolls know that. If using just using neutral words protects them from moderative action, people will notice, and it will inspire other trolls to do the same.
That leads to the honestly strange situation that trolls could carefreely post in the forum if they word their trolling polite enough, while people who are friendly, brighten other's mood and socialize get banned for a joke that was interpreted as a factual statement or for convincingly playing a morally grey roleplay character. It should be the other way round.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake4 -
AtriaKhorist✭✭✭✭Luckily, EU ingame roleplay seems so far safe from moderation, all worries about weird AI bans aside. It better remain that way too or the scene would just... die.
Context is not negotiable. It always matters. Ignoring context is an extremely basic failure of communication skills, and frankly, I expect better from ZOS customer staff.Grim Focus Permaglow is still a problem: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641376/grim-focus-permaglow5 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another thing I'd like to add is that, in my opinion, asking for clarification or pointing out how someone's post sounds - in a polite or friendly way - does not need to be moderated. There's a difference between an insinuation or accusation and just stating politely how reading something feels and asking for clarification. The latter has a positive intention. How else can we avoid or solve misunderstandings if we can't ask a person directly?
Imagine someone with a different cultural background or who struggles with English makes a statement that sounds demanding. Or uses words they don't know are rude. If we could just tell that person this or ask for clarification, a misunderstanding could be solved, that person can learn from it (and we can learn too about how the person was thinking and why they were writing what they wrote - so for the future, if something is unclear again, we might already know it's not meant negatively, but just language problems or cultural differences). It could even help the adressed person to not getting into trouble and getting a warning or even a ban while they didn't know their wording sounded insulting.
Or even in the example I mentioned in my last post: Someone makes a joke. It's not totally clear whether it's a joke. I'd very much prefer people asking me about this, so I can clarify, than getting the post deleted and a ban. Or friendly banter: Person A makes a slightly brash comment towards person B. Person C says "That sounds rude." Person A replies "Oh no, we're close friends, it's just banter, nothing serious". Person B confirms. Problem solved!
From my point of view, we're all adults here, and as such, in many cases we would be able to sort out our misunderstandings ourselves (I very much believe that a community can mostly self-regulate, with mods only sorting out people who deliberately cause trouble or really obvious cases like harassment or the use of slurs). Of course to do that it must be possible to talk with each other openly. If we do, that should be encouraged, not prevented. I think it might even lead to a better atmosphere in this forum if we sort our problems with another user out personally, as we would have to talk, which might lead to asking questions and understanding - which can't happen if such talks are immediately interrupted and deleted (or "solved" by just hitting the "report" button - no one learns anything from that).
And then there are cases of course where things aren't a misunderstanding, but someone is actually meaning to be rude, trolling, etc. In this case it also should be possible to make a statement. I've heard of cases where the statement was deleted, but the troll post it commented on remained - this shouldn't happen. Again, trolls see that, and if they see it works they will deliberately cause such situations, provoke other users with politely worded but disruptive remarks and then watch the person saying a word about it getting moderated.
Edited by Syldras on January 7, 2025 3:50PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake8 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »Thank you. I appreciate you taking it seriously.
And mind, I'm not suggesting you should stop posting in here in general.
And on other matters... @ZOS_Kevin I kindly ask you to look at this moderation case as a peak example.
I agree.
This is a peak example.
And the type of situation I want to avoid with in-game moderation.
This is just my interpretation of the situation I witnessed.
I've read the comment and IMO it wasn't insulting in any way, nor was breaking ToS.
Not in my opinion at least.
It was criticizing the way Wylicat words their opinion, how those comments come off to someone who reads them.
I highly doubt Wilycat flagged the comment as offensive since they acknowledged it.
Criticizing another poster is breaking the posting guidelines. We are to discuss the topic, not the other posters.
PCNA1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I'd write something that comes across as rude I'd absolutely prefer people telling me that, with a chance that we can discuss and resolve the misunderstanding, over them just hitting the report button. Discussing things and giving someone the chance to explain themselves is the friendlier option from my point of view, especially knowing that the other option could lead to a ban (and knowing that appeals are rather difficult).
Edited by Syldras on January 7, 2025 4:56PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake13 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »Thank you. I appreciate you taking it seriously.
And mind, I'm not suggesting you should stop posting in here in general.
And on other matters... @ZOS_Kevin I kindly ask you to look at this moderation case as a peak example.
I agree.
This is a peak example.
And the type of situation I want to avoid with in-game moderation.
This is just my interpretation of the situation I witnessed.
I've read the comment and IMO it wasn't insulting in any way, nor was breaking ToS.
Not in my opinion at least.
It was criticizing the way Wylicat words their opinion, how those comments come off to someone who reads them.
I highly doubt Wilycat flagged the comment as offensive since they acknowledged it.
Criticizing another poster is breaking the posting guidelines. We are to discuss the topic, not the other posters.
I wasn't aware it was to that degree.2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »AtriaKhorist wrote: »Thank you. I appreciate you taking it seriously.
And mind, I'm not suggesting you should stop posting in here in general.
And on other matters... @ZOS_Kevin I kindly ask you to look at this moderation case as a peak example.
I agree.
This is a peak example.
And the type of situation I want to avoid with in-game moderation.
This is just my interpretation of the situation I witnessed.
I've read the comment and IMO it wasn't insulting in any way, nor was breaking ToS.
Not in my opinion at least.
It was criticizing the way Wylicat words their opinion, how those comments come off to someone who reads them.
I highly doubt Wilycat flagged the comment as offensive since they acknowledged it.
Criticizing another poster is breaking the posting guidelines. We are to discuss the topic, not the other posters.
I wasn't aware it was to that degree.
I'm not sure how deliberately that is spelled out in the TOS or EULA, or whether it's just an assumption.... I'd have to go over the docs with a fine-toothed comb, since I don't recall exactly what's stated regarding that - if anything.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
JavaRen✭✭✭✭✭^This sort of difference in perspective is the root of many of the honest issues that reasonable folk have with the moderation, here are several mature, responsible adults who do not agree about what is allowed. Not because anyone involved is a "bad actor" or "troll" or whatever, but they interpret or remember the dense and vague rules differently.Edited by JavaRen on January 7, 2025 7:41PM5
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oceanchanter wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »We are to discuss the topic, not the other posters.
I wasn't aware it was to that degree.
I'm not sure how deliberately that is spelled out in the TOS or EULA, or whether it's just an assumption.... I'd have to go over the docs with a fine-toothed comb, since I don't recall exactly what's stated regarding that - if anything.
It is under flaming in the Community Rules pinned at the top of the General forum.
Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.PCNA1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
Is politely telling a person their post sounds rude and asking for clarification how it was meant...
- flaming
- unconstructive
- heated
- a debate
- a jab
- a personal comment?
From my point of view (and experience, and cultural background, and perception as a non-native English speaker) this does not apply.
It's not flaming, heated or a jab if it's uttered calmly and politely.
It's not unconstructive because the intention was to clear a potential misunderstanding.
It wasn't a debate because it was a singular statement.
It wasn't a personal comment, because a personal comment is what I understand as "ad hominem": Insulting someone for who they are or some social category they fit in instead of something they wrote.
And that's the whole problem, everyone has a very different idea about this.
Edited by Syldras on January 7, 2025 8:31PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake21 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In my day flaming someone was a lot more crude and heated than calmly explaining how their posts came across and suggestions on how to avoid that.16 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
Is politely telling a person their post sounds rude and asking for clarification how it was meant...
- flaming
- unconstructive
- heated
- a debate
- a jab
- a personal comment?
From my point of view (and experience, and cultural background, and perception as a non-native English speaker) this does not apply.
It's not flaming, heated or a jab if it's uttered calmly and politely.
It's not unconstructive because the intention was to clear a potential misunderstanding.
It wasn't a debate because it was a singular statement.
It wasn't a personal comment, because a personal comment is what I understand as "ad hominem": Insulting someone for who they are or some social category they fit in instead of something they wrote.
And that's the whole problem, everyone has a very different idea about this.
It states not to make personal comments about those participating in the thread discussion. It does not say it's ok to do it anyway if we are polite about it.Edited by SilverBride on January 7, 2025 8:37PMPCNA1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I'd write something that comes across as rude I'd absolutely prefer people telling me that, with a chance that we can discuss and resolve the misunderstanding, over them just hitting the report button. Discussing things and giving someone the chance to explain themselves is the friendlier option from my point of view, especially knowing that the other option could lead to a ban (and knowing that appeals are rather difficult).
The problem with that is that if Poster A tells Poster B he is coming across as rude, Poster B then reports Poster A who ends up with a warning or ban for baiting or flaming.Edited by Tandor on January 7, 2025 8:44PM6 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So is a comment about a poster's writing style a "personal comment"?
This is exactly the point. "Personal comment" to me reads as "insulting someone for who they are". Not as "criticising a post that sounds rude/aggressive/inappropriate is forbidden".
We can even argue whether talking about one's own feelings (how one perceives a post) and asking for clarification does count as "criticism". From my point of view it's not.
And we're back at the problem how to interpret the rules because this interpretation can indeed be very different based on a user's individual and cultural background. Clearer rules including examples would help.The problem with that is that if Poster A tells Poster B he is coming across as rude, Poster B then reports Poster A who ends up with a warning or ban for baiting or flaming.
I know. And that's a problem. Also trolls make use of this (a well-known problem, it comes up in online communication all the time): Behave obnoxiously, but polite enough not to break a rule, and then report those who point that out. This is a behaviour that should not be supported but be considered a rule violation by itself.
Edited by Syldras on January 7, 2025 9:01PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake11 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Oceanchanter wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »We are to discuss the topic, not the other posters.
I wasn't aware it was to that degree.
I'm not sure how deliberately that is spelled out in the TOS or EULA, or whether it's just an assumption.... I'd have to go over the docs with a fine-toothed comb, since I don't recall exactly what's stated regarding that - if anything.
It is under flaming in the Community Rules pinned at the top of the General forum.
Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.
That does not make criticism against the rules. That simply means that when you criticize something, you can't make it pesonal or an attack..
ie..- You can say: "That is incorrect because.."
- You can say. "That theory is flawed because IMHO.."
- You can even say. "I don't like or care for players that act that way in game."
- But you cannot say: "Take your noob self out of the conversation cuz you don't know what you're talking about."
Big difference.
[caveat for moderation] Words above are an example only. Not directed at anybody.
Edited by DenverRalphy on January 7, 2025 9:01PM9 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Yes, because it's directed at the poster.
If directing something at a poster is forbidden, we can close the whole forum because we're all directing our messages at someone when replying to another post. It happens when we say we like someone's idea, or art post, or lore theory or whatever.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake15 -
hiyde✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I know. And that's a problem.
Yup, because it's incredibly possible to follow the letter of the law while still being highly disruptive and then weaponizing the report system when someone questions the behavior, even respectfully. 🤷
@Hiyde GM/Founder - Bleakrock Barter Co (Trade Guild - PC/NA) | Blackbriar Barter Co (Trade Guild-PC/NA)11
This discussion has been closed.