Moderation and censorship is out of hand

ZOS_Kevin · January 4

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Lags I want to follow up on your comment because I do think some context needs to be had. In both of those threads, it was repeated either by myself or another mod that we intend to leave the threads open as long as they remain constructive and respectful of folks. Folks over the holiday kept within those lines for the most part, while expressing their concerns and wishes for change. That was greatly appreciated. In both threads, we got to a point today where some folks decided to take the conversation outside of those bounds. Calling for team members to be replaced or bashing community members (current or otherwise) and/or staff is not appropriate. Community guidelines make that pretty clear. We had no intention of closing those threads but ultimately our hand was forced.

I personally have been clear on this, we intend to make changes to how moderation works at least here on the forum. That is something we are tacking here in the new year. I will be reaching out to some community members starting next week to get some specific perspective while also beginning meetings with the moderation team to address moderation practices. This isn't about ego. This is about making sure that this is place where constructive conversation is had and not to have it confused with being okay with a combative atmosphere. We understand some scales need to be rebalanced. But that isn't going to happen at the expense of civility to each other and to our teams here at ZOS.

You are of course entitled to your opinion either way, but I want to make it clear that we did not want to close those threads and gave clear asks to keep it constructive both times.

I appreciate this explanation. I hope this comment is okay, given there is an official reply which I also greatly appreciate. Transparency is huge and I thank you for that.

One thing I'd like to note is that sometimes when a thread is derailed, it is beyond repair. But other times, deleting the problem posts (and depending on severity, actions against the people who posted them), is all that's needed. I agree that the posts you're referring to crossed a line and needed to be removed. I also agree completely that maintaining civility is paramount.

But, there was also a lot of civil discussion in that thread. Many players tried our best to conform to the rules while still participating in such a discussion. It was tricky but I think most posts over the holidays managed to be alright. The good greatly outweighed the bad.

One thing I used to do for another site, and I don't know if it's possible here, was giving a final warning before shutting down a thread that got derailed.

Something along the lines of "Greetings. Some posts have recently been removed for violating community guide line x. While we want to encourage civil discussion, further derailment may result in the closure of this thread. If you have any questions, please contact us using y method. (For the site I helped, it was a DM to me as a mod or alternatively to the CM). Most people seemed to appreciate the heads-up so as to avoid thread closure.

I'll admit sometimes that killed discussion in and of itself depending on the participants. But, open threads were (and seems to be still be) easier to search for reference at a later date. So it was better a thread died than be closed, in my experience. If for no other reason than to aid in the quoting and searching of staff comments when new threads may have been made about old issues.

I do understand there was a warning in this case, so I can understand why in this particular case you guys felt your hands were forced. It's just something I have noticed in other threads as well.

Thanks again for your time.

Thanks for this feedback and will definitely keep this in mind for conversations. Will also be reaching out to pick your brain regarding this generally as well. Appreciate your perspective and past experience in this space.

Destai · January 4

I totally respect and support you guys in removing the offending posts. No one wants to see that kind of sentiment expressed about them.

But, I think it’d have been better to just remove them and let the rest of us carry on with the largely civil conversation. I really don’t see why that wasn’t done. I don’t feel like 3-4 bad posts should terminate the rest of our conversations.

I’m not sure what “forced your hand” really means here. Outside of some compliance or regulatory issues, I don’t really see why the rest of us have to be punished. It’s not fair to the rest of us. It can be discouraging to see a conversation close that so many were so deeply involved with.

Again, support you guys and hope that empathy is clear. Just providing my perspective. I do appreciate your engagement and allowing the thread to carry on as long as it did. I suspect that the conversation will restart at some point, hopefully it goes better.

Oceanchanter · January 4

I needed to doublecheck which thread I'm at, because we're back into forum moderation territory with the topic, while the concern here was mostly focused on in-game moderation.

I do understand that people with more forum experience than I have see those two areas as intertwined tho.
To me, those are two separate matters; mostly because of Kevin's comments in regards to CSA and things he can do as CM that formed my understanding of the situation.

@ZOS_Kevin
I'm happy to see you back and well-rested.
I've seen in the roadmap thread that you had great holidays and New Year. I'm glad to hear that

I wish you the best in the upcoming year!

As for the main topic, I do hope the in-game moderation issues and concerns will be addressed soon, so we know where exactly are we.
I don't usually come out of my depths to participate in community discussion, in any game for that, but this topic here in ESO is more important to me than my comfortable solitude.

wilykcat · January 4

@ZOS_Kevin
Why do I have a feeling this won't end well if they reduce moderation because a small few keep on requesting it.

I've been on other games/forums such as the world of warcraft and they barely have moderation and are very toxic with constant thread derailment, trolling, insults, cursing, and other rule violations. There are also those who break the rules and don't want to be held accountable.

ZOS_Kevin · January 4

Oceanchanter wrote: »

I needed to doublecheck which thread I'm at, because we're back into forum moderation territory with the topic, while the concern here was mostly focused on in-game moderation.

I do understand that people with more forum experience than I have see those two areas as intertwined tho.
To me, those are two separate matters; mostly because of Kevin's comments in regards to CSA and things he can do as CM that formed my understanding of the situation.

@ZOS_Kevin
I'm happy to see you back and well-rested.
I've seen in the roadmap thread that you had great holidays and New Year. I'm glad to hear that
I wish you the best in the upcoming year!

As for the main topic, I do hope the in-game moderation issues and concerns will be addressed soon, so we know where exactly are we.
I don't usually come out of my depths to participate in community discussion, in any game for that, but this topic here in ESO is more important to me than my comfortable solitude.

You are correct and very sorry for derailing from the main topic of in-game moderation.

For in-game moderation, I do not have as much control over that as that is handled by a different team and has its own set of rules. However, I will raise this concern with that team and see what steps we can take to address this. I can’t make any promises right now regarding in-game moderation changes, but will start up the conversation and see where we can go from there.

Hope you had a great holiday and a wonderful start to the New Year. I had a nice break, but still trying to catch up on sleep! 😭

SteveCampsOut · January 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Lags I want to follow up on your comment because I do think some context needs to be had. In both of those threads, it was repeated either by myself or another mod that we intend to leave the threads open as long as they remain constructive and respectful of folks. Folks over the holiday kept within those lines for the most part, while expressing their concerns and wishes for change. That was greatly appreciated. In both threads, we got to a point today where some folks decided to take the conversation outside of those bounds. Calling for team members to be replaced or bashing community members (current or otherwise) and/or staff is not appropriate. Community guidelines make that pretty clear. We had no intention of closing those threads but ultimately our hand was forced.

I personally have been clear on this, we intend to make changes to how moderation works at least here on the forum. That is something we are tacking here in the new year. I will be reaching out to some community members starting next week to get some specific perspective while also beginning meetings with the moderation team to address moderation practices. This isn't about ego. This is about making sure that this is place where constructive conversation is had and not to have it confused with being okay with a combative atmosphere. We understand some scales need to be rebalanced. But that isn't going to happen at the expense of civility to each other and to our teams here at ZOS.

You are of course entitled to your opinion either way, but I want to make it clear that we did not want to close those threads and gave clear asks to keep it constructive both times.

Let's just be clear here @ZOS_Kevin. You guys "Could Have" just deleted the offending comments and left the threads open and running. You chose not to do so. This is just the sort of thing people are railing against. Definitely Moderate the bad apples in discussions but don't kill a discussion because of a couple of bad apples. When you do that, they win and everyone else loses. EDIT: I see some have already addressed this, probably with more tact than I have. My patience is thin with real life and death issues going on in my real life.

Lags · January 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@Lags I want to follow up on your comment because I do think some context needs to be had. In both of those threads, it was repeated either by myself or another mod that we intend to leave the threads open as long as they remain constructive and respectful of folks. Folks over the holiday kept within those lines for the most part, while expressing their concerns and wishes for change. That was greatly appreciated. In both threads, we got to a point today where some folks decided to take the conversation outside of those bounds. Calling for team members to be replaced or bashing community members (current or otherwise) and/or staff is not appropriate. Community guidelines make that pretty clear. We had no intention of closing those threads but ultimately our hand was forced.

I personally have been clear on this, we intend to make changes to how moderation works at least here on the forum. That is something we are tacking here in the new year. I will be reaching out to some community members starting next week to get some specific perspective while also beginning meetings with the moderation team to address moderation practices. This isn't about ego. This is about making sure that this is place where constructive conversation is had and not to have it confused with being okay with a combative atmosphere. We understand some scales need to be rebalanced. But that isn't going to happen at the expense of civility to each other and to our teams here at ZOS.

You are of course entitled to your opinion either way, but I want to make it clear that we did not want to close those threads and gave clear asks to keep it constructive both times.

i really appreciate the response. It makes a big difference to hear from you, especially with multiple threads being closed in a short time. And i understand where you're coming from, with wanting things to remain civil. Most people want things to be civil. i just had high hopes that those threads would stay open i guess. I was pleasantly surprised that they weren't closed, considering the topics. And a lot of the discussions were good, and i think it could give you guys some insight into how people are feeling.

The biggest issue i have is that you guys punish the majority for a very small minority of people who take things way too far. I understand if thats your policy, but it still feels bad when you're someone whos just having a normal discussion. And i am well aware that some of those comments were out of line, i read them. It was almost like some people were doing it on purpose.

Many of us are never going to agree that its a good thing to punish everyone by closing threads, instead of just getting rid of the specific bad posts. But at least if you guys are actually serious about making some changes, and looking at moderation, then maybe there is a middle ground to be found somewhere. thanks again.

wilykcat · January 4

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

hiyde · January 4

Lags wrote: »

It was almost like some people were doing it on purpose.

And sadly, it seems to have worked.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

LootAllTheStuff · January 4

Destai wrote: »

I totally respect and support you guys in removing the offending posts. No one wants to see that kind of sentiment expressed about them.

But, I think it’d have been better to just remove them and let the rest of us carry on with the largely civil conversation. I really don’t see why that wasn’t done. I don’t feel like 3-4 bad posts should terminate the rest of our conversations.

I’m not sure what “forced your hand” really means here. Outside of some compliance or regulatory issues, I don’t really see why the rest of us have to be punished. It’s not fair to the rest of us. It can be discouraging to see a conversation close that so many were so deeply involved with.

Again, support you guys and hope that empathy is clear. Just providing my perspective. I do appreciate your engagement and allowing the thread to carry on as long as it did. I suspect that the conversation will restart at some point, hopefully it goes better.

As a former moderator for a different game forum, I know that there were times when problem posts would be popping up faster than we could deal with them - especially if we were short-handed that day. What we ended up establishing as our agreed team practice was to temporarily lock the thread while we dealt with the problem posts and contacted individual users, then re-open it after some reasonable cool-off period. If the pattern of behaviour was repeated, then we might very well permanently close the thread, but that was pretty much a last resort. The forum software had an option to auto-open closed threads after a set period, which was very useful for this purpose.

Lags · January 4

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

I personally have been clear on this, we intend to make changes to how moderation works at least here on the forum. That is something we are tacking here in the new year. I will be reaching out to some community members starting next week to get some specific perspective while also beginning meetings with the moderation team to address moderation practices. This isn't about ego. This is about making sure that this is place where constructive conversation is had and not to have it confused with being okay with a combative atmosphere. We understand some scales need to be rebalanced. But that isn't going to happen at the expense of civility to each other and to our teams here at ZOS.

If you genuinely mean this then your team needs to stop with the frankly patronising moderation & tenuous application of criteria, particularly that of ‘baiting’ whenever someone criticises or says something that might potentially cause hurt feelings for the thin-skinned among us & instead let adults express themselves freely so long as there is no obvious threat made and / or outright abuse occurring.

i mean i think they can go even a bit further than just threats. If they want the forums to not just be like random name calling and pointless devolving arguments, then i can understand that. But ya, a lot of the time it feels like we are treated like children. You make a sarcastic remark, or strongly disagree with someone and its called bashing. Like they have to have access to the demographics, they must know pretty much everyone are adults here.

Lags · January 4

hiyde wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

It was almost like some people were doing it on purpose.

And sadly, it seems to have worked.

and it always does work. These type of discussions that are heated topics always end up getting shut down. And thats why i said it seems like ego. It seems like they just dont like that a decent amount of people are voicing negative opinions, so then when a very small amount of people take it too far they use that as an excuse to shut the entire thread down.

but if @ZOS_Kevin says its not an ego thing then ill take his word for it. Maybe this is just their policy and the mods are looking for a certain amount of over the top comments, then they shut it down when they feel its devolved too much. I disagree with that tactic completely, but hopefully its something that can be worked on.

Oceanchanter · January 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

I needed to doublecheck which thread I'm at, because we're back into forum moderation territory with the topic, while the concern here was mostly focused on in-game moderation.

I do understand that people with more forum experience than I have see those two areas as intertwined tho.
To me, those are two separate matters; mostly because of Kevin's comments in regards to CSA and things he can do as CM that formed my understanding of the situation.

@ZOS_Kevin
I'm happy to see you back and well-rested.
I've seen in the roadmap thread that you had great holidays and New Year. I'm glad to hear that
I wish you the best in the upcoming year!

As for the main topic, I do hope the in-game moderation issues and concerns will be addressed soon, so we know where exactly are we.
I don't usually come out of my depths to participate in community discussion, in any game for that, but this topic here in ESO is more important to me than my comfortable solitude.

You are correct and very sorry for derailing from the main topic of in-game moderation.

For in-game moderation, I do not have as much control over that as that is handled by a different team and has its own set of rules. However, I will raise this concern with that team and see what steps we can take to address this. I can’t make any promises right now regarding in-game moderation changes, but will start up the conversation and see where we can go from there.

Omg, no need to apologise, it's okay

In hindsight, I should've added "xD" to make my remark more in a jesty/jokingly vibe like it was my intention.

And yeah, I figured it might be the case.
Still, it puts my mind at ease you can bring this up to the team that is responsible for in-game moderation.

I don't expect this tool to be rolled back, bringing the status quo from several months ago, but one can hope.
At the very least we'll have clarification on the matter.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hope you had a great holiday and a wonderful start to the New Year. I had a nice break, but still trying to catch up on sleep! 😭

I did! It was great.
As for catching up on sleep, you and me both 😭

Tandor · January 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Instead of removing comments you lock threads and punish everyone.

If I may share my perspective on this: The main problem I see is that this principle could be easily abused by trolls (not in this case, but generally speaking). Someone who dislikes a topic could deliberately cause trouble to get a thread locked. But I think that had been mentioned before elsewhere, so I hope it will be discussed in the upcoming meetings.

We plan to look at this as well. And totally understand that could be a tactic. We do not believe that was the case in the two threads noted here, but do understand the concern there. Will add it to my list.

While reviewing forum tactics in this way, could you also please review the forum tactic employed by some posters who create a topic, perhaps but not always with a contentious view, start to lose the argument and then get the Moderators to lock the thread "as requested by the original poster"? I've never understood why a thread should be locked just because the other commenters don't happen to agree with the original poster.

wilykcat · January 4

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Aurielle · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I certainly didn't feel any "guilt" when I was punished for "breaking rules" I didn't even realize I was "breaking." The only thing I felt, while reading through the moderator's justification for their decision, was extreme frustration and confusion, as there was literally no correlation between the rule I supposedly broke and what I actually wrote.

Nomadic_Atmoran · January 4

Sleepsin wrote: »

Re-read your own pic. " Users Interact".

The part you seem to have missed here, sir.

wilykcat · January 4

Aurielle wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I certainly didn't feel any "guilt" when I was punished for "breaking rules" I didn't even realize I was "breaking." The only thing I felt, while reading through the moderator's justification for their decision, was extreme frustration and confusion, as there was literally no correlation between the rule I supposedly broke and what I actually wrote.

Accidentally breaking a rule is different than on purposely breaking it. Even when someone accidentally breaks the rules without realizing it's normal to feel bad about it. If one feels a punishment is too harsh than it's ok to appeal it.

When I first joined the game and the forums I didn't quite understand the rules either and got in trouble. I asked the moderators questions, apologized, and they gave a very clear explanation. Now I have a better understanding of the rules and try not to make the same mistake again in the future.

On the otherhand there some people will intentionally break the rules and come up with excuses to get away with it. A moderator should carefully review one's actions to decide whether or not if it's intentional before handing out penalties based on the severity. In some cases its hard to tell.

Lugaldu · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I think that one of the main problems is that it is not about "breaking the rules" per se. Everyone knows that you should use appropriate language in the forum and not insult others. The problem with the discussions - including in the threads on the use of AI and word filters - is that sometimes things are "punished" that leave the punished person without knowing what they actually did wrong. And this happens especially when a large number of people in the forums or in the game chat do not communicate in their native language.

wilykcat · January 4

Lugaldu wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I think that one of the main problems is that it is not about "breaking the rules" per se. Everyone knows that you should use appropriate language in the forum and not insult others. The problem with the discussions - including in the threads on the use of AI and word filters - is that sometimes things are "punished" that leave the punished person without knowing what they actually did wrong. And this happens especially when a large number of people in the forums or in the game chat do not communicate in their native language.

That's the problem with ai. Ai doesn't understand context and its no replacement for human moderators. Moderators have understanding of context, emotion, and they are very resilient.

The profanity filter is good, all it does is block offensive/inappropriate words or phrases and even blocks bad words in other languages. If one wants to use profanity than turn off the filter in the game or use social media.

It's ok for Zenimax to block certain things as this is their game and forums. Freedom of speech does not apply to privately owned businesses but it applies to the government.

Syldras · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

The profanity filter is good, all it does is block offensive/inappropriate words or phrases and even blocks bad words in other languages.

It also blocks many completely normal words in other languages if they look roughly like a bad word in English. Which is the reason that many players in other languages have to turn it off because otherwise every third word would be censored and they're not able to understand what their friends or family are writing in chat at all.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Nobody's making the assertion that people who break the rules shouldn't have action taken against them and be held accountable. What we are asserting is that enforcement should not happen until rules have actually been broken. We've had enough of being inaccurately labeled and having action taken against us that is without merit, cause or justification just because the commentary might reflect negatively on the state of the game at a time when, frankly, the state of the game is not healthy. So we should be allowed to post facts without having action taken against us.

Far too many in modern times, in my view due to so much corporate dominance and social media, far too many are willing to sacrifice their freedoms in advance as if they are not worth preserving. For instance, everyone with a cell phone can be tracked 24/7/365 now and nobody seems to mind that they're giving up their right to privacy by just activating a cell phone. People who participate in social media don't mind leaving a detailed record of their lives for the world and data miners to collect and use for targeted advertising or worse. I'll never understand how so many in today's world voluntarily give up their rights without a second thought about what their giving up.

Oceanchanter · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I think that one of the main problems is that it is not about "breaking the rules" per se. Everyone knows that you should use appropriate language in the forum and not insult others. The problem with the discussions - including in the threads on the use of AI and word filters - is that sometimes things are "punished" that leave the punished person without knowing what they actually did wrong. And this happens especially when a large number of people in the forums or in the game chat do not communicate in their native language.

That's the problem with ai. Ai doesn't understand context and its no replacement for human moderators. Moderators have understanding of context, emotion, and they are very resilient.

The profanity filter is good, all it does is block offensive/inappropriate words or phrases and even blocks bad words in other languages. If one wants to use profanity than turn off the filter in the game or use social media.

It's ok for Zenimax to block certain things as this is their game and forums. Freedom of speech does not apply to privately owned businesses but it applies to the government.

I think everyone knows what the OG definition of the freedom of speech comes from.

Nowadays it's being used to describe that no matter what views you have, as long as you don't harass anyone, you won't get banned.
Having a difference of opinion and believes is not a bannable offense or crime.
Using swears should not a bannable crime either in a game that is M rated, has report button, profanity filter, adult audience, eroticism, blood, gore, and topics I'm too afraid to mention here.

Unfortunately, recent years in the gaming sphere have showed that to some people - and those people often have influence - the line between difference of opinion and harassment doesn't exist.
Just like the AI doesn't see the difference between harassment and banter, they don't see the difference either.

I've said it before; despite my belief majority of the CSAs are doing their job diligently, I'm not confident in how the current system works because of my past experiences (some of them I signed NDAs for).

Maybe AI flags your convo with your buddy where you make fun of Tanlorin's hair whispering to one another, the CSA likes Tanlorin, sees that you kinda sorta broke the ToS (which is vague in places by design in every service; show me a user, I'll show you a crime) so CSA issues a suspension for you both.

I'm obviously mincing my examples here.
Regardless, that's the kind of scenario I am afraid of.
I certainly wouldn't be able to discuss my private experience or life without AI flagging me, and not because of swears.

Before the tool was implemented, you could sleep well that no matter what you discuss privately with someone that conversation won't make you lose everything you worked for.
CSAs would deal with legitimate cases of harassment where the player thought block/ignore wasn't enough to get rid of their bully, and decided to fill the report form.

And now they have to read through RP scenarios with "some random maid" just because AI flagged it.
In the game where we know all about "certain maid's" adventures.

So, while it's ok for Zenimax to block certain things as this is their game and forums, certain balance has to be preserved to make the environment healthy and players happy and secure enough to spend money on Crowns.
Because they can spend that money somewhere else. Somewhere where they won't be banned just because wild card CSA decided to, over a convo that wouldn't be reported in the first place.

Going the authoritarian route and police what people can or cannot say in the (technical) privacy of their own whispers, squads, and guilds - even if no one present felt offended or insulted - would be another position on the list for "ESO is dying" posts.

And, what I am pretty sure of, the part of the community that the tool pleases by preventing other people having convos, RP scenarios, banters and whatnot they don't like - even if they are not part of such - is way too small to sustain the game.

Aurielle · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

I certainly didn't feel any "guilt" when I was punished for "breaking rules" I didn't even realize I was "breaking." The only thing I felt, while reading through the moderator's justification for their decision, was extreme frustration and confusion, as there was literally no correlation between the rule I supposedly broke and what I actually wrote.

Accidentally breaking a rule is different than on purposely breaking it. Even when someone accidentally breaks the rules without realizing it's normal to feel bad about it. If one feels a punishment is too harsh than it's ok to appeal it.

When I first joined the game and the forums I didn't quite understand the rules either and got in trouble. I asked the moderators questions, apologized, and they gave a very clear explanation. Now I have a better understanding of the rules and try not to make the same mistake again in the future.

On the otherhand there some people will intentionally break the rules and come up with excuses to get away with it. A moderator should carefully review one's actions to decide whether or not if it's intentional before handing out penalties based on the severity. In some cases its hard to tell.

Thing is, though, I didn't actually break the rule I supposedly broke. I unfortunately can't post a screencap of exactly what was said here, as that falls under the category of "discussing moderation," but I can guarantee you that anyone reading the exchange who is actually familiar with PVP in this game would agree that no rule was broken.

Wuduwasa13 · January 4

Lags wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

I personally have been clear on this, we intend to make changes to how moderation works at least here on the forum. That is something we are tacking here in the new year. I will be reaching out to some community members starting next week to get some specific perspective while also beginning meetings with the moderation team to address moderation practices. This isn't about ego. This is about making sure that this is place where constructive conversation is had and not to have it confused with being okay with a combative atmosphere. We understand some scales need to be rebalanced. But that isn't going to happen at the expense of civility to each other and to our teams here at ZOS.

If you genuinely mean this then your team needs to stop with the frankly patronising moderation & tenuous application of criteria, particularly that of ‘baiting’ whenever someone criticises or says something that might potentially cause hurt feelings for the thin-skinned among us & instead let adults express themselves freely so long as there is no obvious threat made and / or outright abuse occurring.

i mean i think they can go even a bit further than just threats. If they want the forums to not just be like random name calling and pointless devolving arguments, then i can understand that. But ya, a lot of the time it feels like we are treated like children. You make a sarcastic remark, or strongly disagree with someone and its called bashing. Like they have to have access to the demographics, they must know pretty much everyone are adults here.

Yes, that would fall under my definition of abuse (unfettered ad hominem). The threats aspect pertains more to harassment, doxxing etc.

It’s long overdue the forums were reorganised into a fit-for-purpose space that allows feedback for the devs to pass on to the relevant teams & where players can engage each other (civilly, but free from the burden of toxic positivity), rather than treating it as a school playground where unfortunately a dedicated minority of petulant cry babies can easily stifle conversations & discussions merely by throwing their toys out of the pram and claiming to have been attacked for the very act of others disagreeing with them.

Wuduwasa13 · January 4

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Profoundly disagree with this frankly bizarre assessment of the situation. Seems you’re tuned into some alternative frequency to the one the rest of us are.

SteveCampsOut · January 4

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Profoundly disagree with this frankly bizarre assessment of the situation. Seems you’re tuned into some alternative frequency to the one the rest of us are.

The problem, as I see it, is they are willfully ignoring the fact that many of us who are discussing this aren't saying we don't like the rules. We're saying we don't like how they're being misinterpreted in our eyes. As an example. I left one comment a while back that was removed for baiting. All it was, was the dictionary definition of a word being used in said discussion. THAT WAS IT. And I got dinged for baiting. Rules are being misused based on hurt feelings, and that simply can not stand.

Wuduwasa13 · January 4

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

For both game and forum:
When there are two players getting into a heated debate that crosses the line, it's fair to punish them both. It does happen once in a while and that's when moderators have to intervene. Luckily I haven't really seen that here since most people understand the rules (which is good).

Following the rules grants freedom. The moderators are strict but nice and I do appreciate that.

Do you come from a country that is not a democracy? (please do not post your country) Not asking where you are from, just asking because your posts seem to express some cultural differences that most citizens of free nations don't feel comfortable with.

Nah. I have different opinions than what others have. It doesn't mean I'm from another country.

I understand that some people think breaking the rules grants freedom but in reality it doesn't. When rules are broken endless feelings of guilt piles up and so does the chances of receiving punishment. That puts extra work on the moderators and makes everyone feel bad. When rules are followed then more positive experiences happen for everyone and there's no need for a penalty. The moderators will have less work on their hands and no one would fear getting punished.

Profoundly disagree with this frankly bizarre assessment of the situation. Seems you’re tuned into some alternative frequency to the one the rest of us are.

The problem, as I see it, is they are willfully ignoring the fact that many of us who are discussing this aren't saying we don't like the rules. We're saying we don't like how they're being misinterpreted in our eyes. As an example. I left one comment a while back that was removed for baiting. All it was, was the dictionary definition of a word being used in said discussion. THAT WAS IT. And I got dinged for baiting. Rules are being misused based on hurt feelings, and that simply can not stand.

Precisely. I disagree with that individuals assessment that we are quibbling the role of rules in the forum, rather than the definition & application of criteria & a lack of coherent uniformity among the admins who are responsible for said application.

Wuduwasa13 · January 4

I will add that I am encouraged by Kevin’s posts as I do believe him to be sincere in his intent to drive reform. I simply hope he can accurately separate the wheat from the chaff in the broader discussion and allow the sensible points made in this thread to shape the trajectory of those reforms.