Moderation and censorship is out of hand

Zama666

"sexual themes".... ?
Lusty Argonian?

Koshka

Zama666 wrote: »

"sexual themes".... ?
Lusty Argonian?

There's no sex on screen, but you can find a ton of innuendos, npcs hitting on you and stuff. For example, I wanted to upgrade my new character's bag and this happened...

This guy is clearly trying to bypass word filter...

Estin

Zama666 wrote: »

"sexual themes".... ?
Lusty Argonian?

They're in the Windhelm Outlaws Refuge if you were looking for them

Amottica

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

Jierdanit

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

Amottica

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

davidtk

At least in EU its PEGI18. First for violence
then for in-game purchase
And even last rating states BAD LANGUAGE in the issues
And btw... PEGI18 means ADULT
But ofc you will encounter ppl from all corners of the world where that game have different ratings and unfortunately this game playing younger ppl and children... So how you want prevent children to see "bad language" in the chat??

Jierdanit

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

Amottica

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

SteveCampsOut

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

Amottica

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

I wonder why I have not experienced this.

Katahdin

Sleepsin wrote: »

Having loot boxes is a guaranteed M rating. That other stuff, not so much.

It was M rated well before there were loot boxes.
The big lettering is the original reason for the M rating

Blood, Violence, Sexual themes, alcohol use.
Loot boxes are an additional reason but not the original one

Desiato

I miss the days when, outside of something extreme, we were expected to just ignore someone if we didn't like what they had to say. Not just in ESO, but everywhere.

This is a social game. It is important people feel comfortable enough to have conversations. While there are some exceptional people in the community, most of us are flawed humans with biases a prejudices we may not be aware of and should be largely forgiven for.

This is a diverse global community spanning at at least 4 generations from all walks of life. There are legitimate english dialects effectively banned from communicating with each other in eso because they are not politically correct in a different context.

One thing I notice playing lately is how dead zone chat is compared to what it used to be. I think this is a direct result of restrictive policies.

Even in the case of actual hate, I don't think ZOS should ever get involved in a private exchange unless one party invites them to. I feel this is a no-brainer.

wilykcat

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

[snip]

Moderation in general:
I don't think moderation and censorship existing is woke because it exist almost everywhere online for legal/saftey reasons to some extent. Amount of moderation may vary based on how many players are currently active, who's working that day, and other factors.

Also I know Zenimax won't explain every single detail about moderation and how it works here due to bad actors.

Edit: wanted to post rest of comment in the other moderation thread.

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Hadeostry

Let's make sure we are staying on topic, as this thread is about moderation in game. If you wanted to discuss moderation on the forums there is already a different discussion here.

Oceanchanter

Desiato wrote: »

I miss the days when, outside of something extreme, we were expected to just ignore someone if we didn't like what they had to say. Not just in ESO, but everywhere.

This is a social game. It is important people feel comfortable enough to have conversations. While there are some exceptional people in the community, most of us are flawed humans with biases a prejudices we may not be aware of and should be largely forgiven for.

This is a diverse global community spanning at at least 4 generations from all walks of life. There are legitimate english dialects effectively banned from communicating with each other in eso because they are not politically correct in a different context.

One thing I notice playing lately is how dead zone chat is compared to what it used to be. I think this is a direct result of restrictive policies.

Even in the case of actual hate, I don't think ZOS should ever get involved in a private exchange unless one party invites them to. I feel this is a no-brainer.

Exactly.
I remember those times fondly from other games.

Rememeber that meme where a teen player helps a 49 year old woman through her divorce in a guild chat?
I was that teen.

None of the conversations I had 10-15 years ago in another MMORPG would be allowed by...whatever system is now employed...in ESO
There were some heavy stories being told at 3am in the guild chat i had over there, or someone was just venting about their difficult situation and everyone was there to cheer them up.

Dead silence and people not even saying hi in the dungeon is the consequence of the system employed.

I let myself loose once, and called one Dungeon my personal purgatory (I've been farming for weeks, and I cannot get specific gear set piece dropped).
Then I was worried for days whenever I'd get banned or not. What if the word "purgatory" is a no-no word and I get flagged?

In my personal opinion, suspensions, flagging, and ban hammers as the last resort should be for legit cases of verbal harassment and abuse.
And it should be up to the offended parties to report the player.

BahometZ

Just another in a long line of decisions that lead players to disengage.

Players have complained repeatedly about insufficient communication from zos, maybe the answer is to reduce our communication commensurately.

Zos talk about lot about community, which is nice. It's nice to foster a sense of community as humans are typically pro-social. But it always takes a back seat to profit and performance. That's fine, obviously, but I'm not going to give zos much credit for community spirit when they make so many decisions that erode community ties.

I have been playing a long time and talked to a lot of people, and it strikes me that those who have a positive outlook are somewhat introverted or at least approach eso more like a single player game. They don't have a goal-oriented approach, and just have fun doing their own thing. They're not regularly engaging in the group content that develops a wider community, and so not engaging with other people about the ups and downs.

The folks with more negative things to say are generally active in specific communities who have had to endure set-backs.

The end-game, housing, pvp and role play communities have all had game decisions that have not just disappointed but in some cases felt like an insult to the player base. This has lead to a specific erosion in these communities at various points.

Decisions across all aspects of the game have reduced functionality, or seen unilateral system changes having consequences the player-base foresaw, gave feedback on and were ignored, a lot of times sacrificed on the altar of performance.
Patch after patch of bad performance, shoddy combat balance, bugs introduced or not fixed, or simply lack of any attention at all to certain game elements.

Players can rightly feel scorned and disengaged:

- months of no crown-gifting followed by an inscrutable and random approval process that some players still haven't overcome
- AI-centred random chat bans targeting players with little recourse, casting a grim shadow across multiple communities and leading players to disengage
- In-game voice chat being broken for years, pushing people to use outside means of communication (an extra level of effort that some don't make and simply drift away)
- stagnant guild system that stymies the central social forum of the whole game (that this system hasn't evolved is crazy)
- group-size cut from 24 to 12 (having massive widespread effects on social events across many communities, not to mention altering cyrodiil group dynamics forever)

A special shout out to update 35, and the great work of Nefas et al's ESOU raid lead program being terminated at birth, with a skilled player exodus that the endgame will probably never recover.

Oh, and another shout out for cancelling the North American 10th anniversary event, because a little financial outlay to give back to the fan base that spends big money on pixels should be a no-brainer. It would've been a good move for the community.

BahometZ

Amottica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

I wonder why I have not experienced this.

That's a good point actually. I think if you find the right tone of inoffensive corpo-speak you'll be safe.

Oceanchanter

BahometZ wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

I wonder why I have not experienced this.

That's a good point actually. I think if you find the right tone of inoffensive corpo-speak you'll be safe.

It's no different from HR being in the room.
HR that is multitasking on different things, at the same time listening to whatever employees are talking about.
Then an employee gets suspended over something they overheard out of context cause they lost focus mid-convo.
But appeals must be done regardless cause HR made the decision.

I'd do overtime at work if I wanted such environment to talk to people.

There are a lot of activities that are easier done in a group that communicates.
If a group doesn't communicate because they are afraid, those activities are more difficult to find or do.

Example
It's been weeks since I was on the lookout for the Maw Trial to get Wildburn Skill Style.
It would be easier if I joined a guild and ask for help, but seeing the situation I'm less inclined to do so.
I could make my own group, but explaining mechanics to people while wondering whenever I will or will not get flagged for something even non-TOS breaking cause "bad luck" is not a fun idea.

So I just watch and hope.
The Maw is not a popular Trial like Cloudrest is, I can tell you that.

randconfig

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

If you have a question or want to appeal an action taken in game, please check out the information here and place in a ticket. As a reminder. please follow Community Code of Conduct and refrain from posting about specific moderation/actions.

Except that when you do that, they "review" the action taken, and double down on their bans. The problem is how vague the Code of Conduct is, so as to apply to anything harmless, obvious jokes, any use of cuss words, and etc. Anything ZOS deems inappropriate too, but what does that mean? Are we not allowed to be adults in the adult rated game? It's ridiculous.

Amottica

BahometZ wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

I wonder why I have not experienced this.

That's a good point actually. I think if you find the right tone of inoffensive corpo-speak you'll be safe.

True in both the forums and here.

Also, Zenimax has noted they do not listen to private channels though people need to understand what is private. Say a channel in a dungeon is not considered private since a dungeon is not private, even if only your group is in that dungeon. This is something Zenimax has stated. I would also suggest a whisper should not be considered private since that can be uninvited, and a lot of problematic chat is via a whisper. Well, at least in PvP after killing someone. lol

I would suggest a list of what a private chat instance is and what is not.

Oceanchanter

Amottica wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

M rating in the US does not mean adult.

Even with that, this chat and the game are private forums that permit Zenimax to set standards for decency as they see fit. They have that right and make such decisions with the idea that none of us have to be here if we do not like it or do not want to conform.

They made a business decision about the community they wanted to foster.

No one is saying ZOS doesnt have the right to moderate the game how they like.

The customers are just trying to tell ZOS that the way theyre doing it at the moment is not very smart .

I understand that there are people here who have the opinion that Zenimax is going wrong. It is great that Zenimax permits everyone to express their opinion on such matters, even if some disagree with Zenimax.

Funny thing to say when plenty of people get forum bans or get their messages deleted because of "bashing" when they say negative stuff about ZOS.

So clearly not everyone is permitted to express their opinion.

There is a difference between providing negative feedback about how something is handled and saying negative things about the people behind it.

and that is something that is very well known.

Clearly you have not seen when a moderator takes criticism of how they moderated personally and issues a warning or a ban. Some of us have experienced it.

I wonder why I have not experienced this.

That's a good point actually. I think if you find the right tone of inoffensive corpo-speak you'll be safe.

True in both the forums and here.

Also, Zenimax has noted they do not listen to private channels though people need to understand what is private. Say a channel in a dungeon is not considered private since a dungeon is not private, even if only your group is in that dungeon. This is something Zenimax has stated. I would also suggest a whisper should not be considered private since that can be uninvited, and a lot of problematic chat is via a whisper. Well, at least in PvP after killing someone. lol

I would suggest a list of what a private chat instance is and what is not.

I totally agree.

Clarification from ZOS would at least put people at ease.
I don't think we will get it this year tho, but it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Best case scenario would be rolling it back to before the system was implemented, and trust the player more to use tools given to them; ignore button and report form.

ApoAlaia

Personally I err on the side of caution and only use the chat to greet people at the start of a pug and say thank you and bye when is done.

For everything else regarding communication I use third party methods.

Experience dictates that on balance is always preferable to avoid having to have a conversation after the fact with someone who wields unchecked, uncontestable authority.

Lylith

i got a warning for swearing at a wb i was soloing with a 'say' command.

no one there, just me. (and big brother, it seems)

Desiato

Lylith wrote: »

i got a warning for swearing at a wb i was soloing with a 'say' command.

no one there, just me. (and big brother, it seems)

I am suddenly terrified about what I've been cursing about in group chat when presented with bugs and lag recently....

@ZOS_Kevin Honestly, don't you see a problem here? I've been on this earth a few decades now, and I can tell you when Western Civilization was at its peak, we all had dirty mouths. I just can't imagine how any reasonable person thinks this is a good idea. That's not bashing. I literally mean I cannot imagine it. Who would be okay with this happening to them?

MincMincMinc

Too many games these days catering to cancel culture and not just giving people the tools to moderate themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wtvXoXh0VU

Elvenheart

Servadei wrote: »

Imagine posting well akshually it's not language - it's just violence, blood, gore, and sex.

So one of the reasons is “The Lusty Argonian Maid”? 😇

JavaRen

Can someone explain why people type in chat channels that no one else can see? I have seen multiple people complain about being alone in an instance or using /say with no player nearby and having action taken against them for their words. But why were they typing?

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Having a profanity filter is the best way to prevent those player who do not want to see it to not see it. This is already in the game. I also feel there can be some human moderation as context is important to determining if use of such vulgarities crosses a line or not. The problem with using AI to monitor chat or discussions is it is lousy at establishing context.

We had rules about acceptable language on a professional forum I moderated. While profanity was against the rules we also understood that people slip up and that for some folks casual use of certain words was the way they talked. We generally didn't modify posts or reprimand people for the casual use of profanity when it was part of the conversation and was not directed towards another forum member. When it was directed towards someone or was obviously meant for shock effect we would edit the post and council the poster. Before making a determination as to which situation it was we had to read more than the suspect post. If we weren't familiar with the poster we might also look into the member's posting history. It wasn't uncommon for the moderators to ask each other for opinions. None of these actions are within the abilities of AI moderators and because of this my opinion is they should not be used until they are as capable as a human at the job.

Desiato

JavaRen wrote: »

Can someone explain why people type in chat channels that no one else can see? I have seen multiple people complain about being alone in an instance or using /say with no player nearby and having action taken against them for their words. But why were they typing?

The same reason I curse aloud alone in rl. It's venting. If I don't express myself, it builds up inside and eventually I'll explode! It is a normal part of the human experience. A service provider selling services to humans should be understanding of the human experience.