Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Most of you are complaining about 1 Sorc spec (Mag stacking Sorc with Hardened Ward). I can guarantee with you right now 99% of you will not do very well on a shieldless Sorc in Cyrodiil. I know this for a fact because I've played Stamsorc for years and rarely see Stamsorc in Cyrodiil at all. The ones that still play are either really good at the class or just good players in general. They will excel at any class.

There is no need to complain about Dark Deal, Mages' Wrath, Streak, etc. Those are all l2p issues if you can't deal with them. The actual issue is magsorc being too tanky and that's been partially addressed by Ward nerf (which btw I strongly advocated for). Just address Ward further to make magsorc less tanky but not trash and we won't have this issue anymore.

Imagine if you will, people disliked streak and other aspects of the sorc kit before the last set of sorc buffs, for multiple reasons.
I know this isn't the thread for it, but it is also not necessary to try and invalidate other opinions by saying "streak wasn't even buffed and these fools still think it is too strong" (excuse me for paraphrasing).

I would agree with you if it was 4 years ago. There is no reason for anybody to complain about Streak right now when:

1) Movement speed makes chasing Sorcs a piece of cake
2) Movement speed makes avoiding Streak a piece of cake
3) Movement speed is super easy to get

Stacking movement speed also helps you evade zergs and land melee attacks easier during lag. It's beneficial for all scenarios, not like using Camo Hunter or Detect potions to counter Cloak (which isn't beneficial for all scenarios).

Maybe there's a case if they're new to the game and don't know about those counters yet. If they've been playing for a while and still haven't built movement speed to counter Streak, then I don't think their position is strong.

Avoiding streak is a luxury that melee player don't really have. You can pop it up close with a very forgiving radius and it is still easy to hit an already moving target within a certain range, or even a more distant target with proper aim/movement prediction. It just does so much for an unblockable & undodgeable stun with built-in gap closer.
Funnily enough the "building for it" - counterplay has often been used to argue against abilities like cloak, but speed still doesn't serve as guaranteed counter (as reasoned above). Also, due to sorcs short cd burst loop, nothing stops you from retrying on the spot.
Yes, you can try to remain at range to not fall prey to streak-ensured burst, but then you are also just allowing the sorc to reset at will or out-pressure you if you are on a melee build.

Let another 4 years pass and I still won't find it appropriate.

Building for Streak is as easy as using 2x Swift. Building for Cloak requires sacrificing a whole bar slot and/or potions. Building for Streak also allows you to counter other builds. Building for Cloak only allows you to counter Cloak. They aren’t remotely equal. I’m sure you understand that.

If that would truly be enough I'd agree, but the angles at which streak stuns have registered on me just tell another story. Also I wasn't trying to make this about cloak, rather the substance of the argument. I don't care if cloak has to burn in hell, if that means streak won't annoy me all day I'll take that deal any time.

Sorry, dealing with streak as a stun and dealing with streak as an escape are totally different things.

As a stun, it's not particularly remarkable other than that it requires the sorc to re-acquire you as a target afterward (making it worse than most). There are plenty of other stuns in the game with similar (lack of) counterplay.

As an escape it's at least unique, which I suppose makes it powerful in some sense. I'm not really inclined to consider it overpowered though, given that it's the only skill in the game with ramping costs and regular gap closers and other speed buffs are an effective counter.

No doubt Sorc is powerful, but I don't really think Streak is the problem. My magsorc is by far my most effective PvP character (as a damage/healer hybrid for BGs, and definitely not as a dueller), and he doesn't even use Streak or Hardened Ward. His most effective tools are Twilight Matriarch for heals, Bound Aegis for passive defense, Boundless Storm for speed, and burst damage from comboing Haunting Curse, Endless Fury, and Crystal Fragments. Between those and a couple HoTs and more utility-oriented skills, I don't have room for Streak or Hardened Ward. Additionally, outside of Bound Aegis, none of those skills really stand out in isolation, but having them all (and more) in combination is what makes magsorc strong. Most other classes have huge gaps in their kit, like a lack of mobility, a missing execute, or weak heals that make it hard to put together a complete build.

Unfortunately, this leaves balance in a tough spot. Outside of a major rework, it's hard to imagine changes that can bring sorcs into line without crushing the whole class into uselessness (because anything less extreme will just reduce the variety of powerful builds, instead of making sorcs less powerful overall).

Vaqual wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Most of you are complaining about 1 Sorc spec (Mag stacking Sorc with Hardened Ward). I can guarantee with you right now 99% of you will not do very well on a shieldless Sorc in Cyrodiil. I know this for a fact because I've played Stamsorc for years and rarely see Stamsorc in Cyrodiil at all. The ones that still play are either really good at the class or just good players in general. They will excel at any class.

There is no need to complain about Dark Deal, Mages' Wrath, Streak, etc. Those are all l2p issues if you can't deal with them. The actual issue is magsorc being too tanky and that's been partially addressed by Ward nerf (which btw I strongly advocated for). Just address Ward further to make magsorc less tanky but not trash and we won't have this issue anymore.

Imagine if you will, people disliked streak and other aspects of the sorc kit before the last set of sorc buffs, for multiple reasons.
I know this isn't the thread for it, but it is also not necessary to try and invalidate other opinions by saying "streak wasn't even buffed and these fools still think it is too strong" (excuse me for paraphrasing).

I would agree with you if it was 4 years ago. There is no reason for anybody to complain about Streak right now when:

1) Movement speed makes chasing Sorcs a piece of cake
2) Movement speed makes avoiding Streak a piece of cake
3) Movement speed is super easy to get

Stacking movement speed also helps you evade zergs and land melee attacks easier during lag. It's beneficial for all scenarios, not like using Camo Hunter or Detect potions to counter Cloak (which isn't beneficial for all scenarios).

Maybe there's a case if they're new to the game and don't know about those counters yet. If they've been playing for a while and still haven't built movement speed to counter Streak, then I don't think their position is strong.

Avoiding streak is a luxury that melee player don't really have. You can pop it up close with a very forgiving radius and it is still easy to hit an already moving target within a certain range, or even a more distant target with proper aim/movement prediction. It just does so much for an unblockable & undodgeable stun with built-in gap closer.
Funnily enough the "building for it" - counterplay has often been used to argue against abilities like cloak, but speed still doesn't serve as guaranteed counter (as reasoned above). Also, due to sorcs short cd burst loop, nothing stops you from retrying on the spot.
Yes, you can try to remain at range to not fall prey to streak-ensured burst, but then you are also just allowing the sorc to reset at will or out-pressure you if you are on a melee build.

Let another 4 years pass and I still won't find it appropriate.

Building for Streak is as easy as using 2x Swift. Building for Cloak requires sacrificing a whole bar slot and/or potions. Building for Streak also allows you to counter other builds. Building for Cloak only allows you to counter Cloak. They aren’t remotely equal. I’m sure you understand that.

If that would truly be enough I'd agree, but the angles at which streak stuns have registered on me just tell another story. Also I wasn't trying to make this about cloak, rather the substance of the argument. I don't care if cloak has to burn in hell, if that means streak won't annoy me all day I'll take that deal any time.

Sorry, dealing with streak as a stun and dealing with streak as an escape are totally different things.

As a stun, it's not particularly remarkable other than that it requires the sorc to re-acquire you as a target afterward (making it worse than most). There are plenty of other stuns in the game with similar (lack of) counterplay.

As an escape it's at least unique, which I suppose makes it powerful in some sense. I'm not really inclined to consider it overpowered though, given that it's the only skill in the game with ramping costs and regular gap closers and other speed buffs are an effective counter.

I mean that is the entire point, that it does both. With a convenient damage tick to go with it.

Other unblockable/undodgeable stuns are radial with melee range, so you actually can counterplay them somewhat effectively on a melee character (you have pray to the desync gods that the ability connects/doesn't connect).
The ramping cost only affects spamming for escape and movement speed is available to sorcs as it is to everyone else, especially since scribing dropped.
In my opinion it just doesn't need to be unblockable. If you give people the chance to properly defend against the class there will also be more room for certain buffs.

The fact you can't deal with Streak's stun targeting sounds like a skill issue. The fact that Streak works as both an offensive stun and an escape is useful from a bar space perspective, but they're otherwise almost completely orthogonal use cases so I don't really see a pure power issue, and the bar space efficiency is at least somewhat justified because it helps make up for the fact that Sorc pets need to be double-barred to be useful.

Vaqual wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The fact you can't deal with Streak's stun targeting sounds like a skill issue.

Ah yes great, we arrived at the discussion ender quite fast. Not reliably out moving the non-telegraphed instant unavoidable dash is of course peak game design. Anyone who thinks this is flawed must be incapable of using his strafe buttons.

Sure the bar space is absolutely needed because slotting pets is clearly something people do. You need a sarcasm-tag for that or is it visible?

I think I have said all to make clear why I think this is the pivotal ability that makes the class a burden on many peoples nerves. You can of course dismiss that by discrediting my opinion solely based on my previous statements.
Sorc has received a substantially improved kit (scribing + buffs) and retained all the disproportionate power that comes with streak, which was often cited as the reason for the differences in the class kit, based on the vision for it. Something has to give.

Like I said earlier, I don't even use Streak. It's not good enough to make it into my build, and I'm sure I'm not alone. ZOS could nerf it into oblivion and it would have exactly zero effect on me, and very little effect on overall sorc power. It's also worth remembering that Streak hasn't changed at all since a couple years ago when sorcs were widely considered easy kills.

This whole thread is super exciting for me. If ZOS is anything like most of the people here, I can look forward to playing my OP sorc for a good long while. Sure, there will probably be big nerfs to Streak and Hardened Ward, and I'm certain some people will be up in arms about how sorc is suddenly F tier, but I'll still be dominating BGs like nothing changed, because nothing in my build will be affected.

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Funny how they constantly lump all sorcs in the same boat but when discussing their class it's always "they play [insert their class here] differently".

Yea, I'm just tired of catching strays. Whenever I hear about Sorc being "broken", it's always magSorc. This is the same situation when proc Sorc was super broken and I kept catching strays despite playing a stat build lol.

I've been a melee Sorc for years and these several patches people keep telling me that I'm playing an easy class. Like, ok lol? I've played stamSorc for 5-6 years, through bad patches and good patches. That does not mean I'm playing an easy class lol. It's almost like they think I won't do well on other classes when it's literally my mechanical skills that allowed me to play stamSorc at a high level even during the patches when it was completely trash.

Welcome to the club. As a wardless magsorc, I have been catching strays from the community (and ZOS) ever since the beginning of the game, no matter what version of sorc (mag or stam) was the meta at the time...

Some history for those who like to just lump all sorcs into 1 group, wardless magsorc has never once been anywhere near the top of the meta. It has been playable a few times, but never top of the meta.
Stamsorc has at least had dizzyswing melee builds years ago, and bow/proc builds in more recent times. The only time magsorc has been in the meta has been when ward specifically is made super strong and that buff to ward is also paired with another buff to something else that also happens to directly buff ward further (in the past, shield stacking paired with long durations or unique crit interactions, and now ward strength increased + given a heal paired with increased mag scaling).

Very telling on the overall state of sorcs kit outside of ward. If the rest of sorcs kit (streak/frags/dark deal/etc.) was truly as OP as those here in this thread (and all the other threads) are trying to claim, then surely wardless magsorc would have been, at the bare minimum, just as meta impactful over the years as stamsorc has been, after all, wardless magsorc has always had access to streak, frags, curse, lightning form, dark exchange, negate and overload. Surely with access to all of that just like stamsorc has access to, wardless magsorc would have found a way to be more than just "inferior stamsorc" whenever ward wasn't an overtuned ability. Or maybe, and hear me out here, magsorc really isn't as overpowered as people think when you remove ward from the equation and peoples issues are with wardsorcs specifically.

Sorc is completely fine, they already nerfed the shield and curse, I think that’s enough. Sorc is at the same tier as nbs, wardens and dks, can’t say the same for templars, arcs and necros, but I think they should be buffed instead of nerfing other classes.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, I'm just tired of catching strays

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Welcome to the club. As a wardless magsorc

Your personal choice to play an off meta Sorc variant has nothing to do with the experience of Sorc opponents. Devs will eventually do something about Sorc's indefinite disengage/reengage just like they did with NB, because it's bad PvP. I think it's fair to ask "hey can we do this without ruining StamSorc" but I genuinely don't think StamSorc would be affected much when it doesn't even need Streak spam unless it's being intentionally reckless.

However, the mere existence of Wardless MagSorc is something that specifically demonstrates how crazy the combination of spammable teleport and ranged nuke damage has become.

Welp, the mere existence of non-invis NBs is something that…

What Kind of argument is this? Everything working outside of meta builds proves that the rest of any class kit is „crazy“?

I agree that ranged dmg in general has become oppressive. But that is surely no sorc or specifically streak issue. That Argument seems dishonest.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I agree that ranged dmg in general has become oppressive. But that is surely no sorc or specifically streak issue. That Argument seems dishonest.

You engage some enemies to brawl.
You get shot in the back from a Sorc at max range.
You turn around to engage the Sorc.
The Sorc has already Streak spammed out of gap closer or RAT range.

You engage some enemies to brawl.
You get shot in the back from the same Sorc at max range.
You turn around to engage that Sorc.
That Sorc has again already Streak spammed out of gap closer or RAT range.

This is all the time in every fight in Cyro or BGs and the Sorc doesn't even need to be good. There's little to no risk for the Sorc player, and even a mid vanilla Sorc build is inherently doing threatening damage from max range. And obviously it's not just mid tier cheesers looking for a carry class, very good players are rerolling from other classes to Sorc.

Ranged damage should decrease as distance increases. This would address sorcs standing 30m away and burning down mid-tier and even good players from the central tree in Ewok Village, the platform in high isle or from spawn in any 4v4 map. The risk reward of standing far away or getting close directly lines up with the general risk reward of any build style in eso. If you want to engage the enemy, you have to actually engage the enemy or nerf yourself by standing 30m away.

Anyone who says this is destroying a play style, well, it is. It's a toxic and broken playstyle that shouldn't belong in the game. You want hit me as hard from 35m as I can hit you from 7, you should be a one tap glass cannon. It's risk/reward. You want to be able to heal/defend and stand 30m away and be safe, you should suffer a significant hit to your damage. Herein is the problem with sorc ward. Sorcs are rewarded with better shields by building higher into damage so they stand 30m away and burning people down just to shield and streak away with endless magicka. Not well thought out imho.

StaticWave wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I agree that ranged dmg in general has become oppressive. But that is surely no sorc or specifically streak issue. That Argument seems dishonest.

You engage some enemies to brawl.
You get shot in the back from a Sorc at max range.
You turn around to engage the Sorc.
The Sorc has already Streak spammed out of gap closer or RAT range.

You engage some enemies to brawl.
You get shot in the back from the same Sorc at max range.
You turn around to engage that Sorc.
That Sorc has again already Streak spammed out of gap closer or RAT range.

This is all the time in every fight in Cyro or BGs and the Sorc doesn't even need to be good. There's little to no risk for the Sorc player, and even a mid vanilla Sorc build is inherently doing threatening damage from max range. And obviously it's not just mid tier cheesers looking for a carry class, very good players are rerolling from other classes to Sorc.

Then instead of nerfing their core combat ability which has not been a problem for 5 years, nerf their ability to be defensive (which recently got buffed via Hardened Ward) so that when you catch up to them, they will more likely to die. It’s the same argument vs NB. I’ve always advocated for a heal nerf before Cloak nerf.

There is no reason for anybody to complain about Streak when catching up to them is so simple. This is a clip of me catching up to a Sorc who used Streak 3 times in a row:

https://youtu.be/tfWfyBZbFfg?si=IK-p8a_n3JFH8LWh

250+ ping with 3 heavy armor pieces, no Swift, and inconsistent use of Quick Cloak (sometimes it didn’t even register due to lag). Yet I almost caught up to the Sorc several times. He had to teleport to IC at the end to get away from me.

That magsorc just wasted 10-15k+ mag when I literally just had to sprint to him. With Scribbing, Minor Expedition is easily accessible for everyone.

I think you’re complaining just for the sake of complaining. We both play on PC NA I run into the SAME magsorcs you’re talking about and I have no problems dealing with them.

You burned through half your stamina, then popped a pot, then burned through half again and you didn't even catch them. And, not for nothin', but you're running a sorc...

Not sure what point to you were trying to make. Please clarify

You can’t be serious…

1) I didn’t catch them because they used an addon to port to IC at the end. I was just 2-3 meters away from them when they ported, as seen by the tab targetting. I would have 100% caught them if they did not port to IC.

2) I started the chase at 26197 stam, and used a potion at 18.2k stam. That’s ~7.7k stam I lost from sprinting and using Quick Cloak once for Major Expedition.

Meanwhile, the magsorc Streaked 3 times at the beginning, Dark Conversion once, then Streaked twice again.

Using the exact position where I popped the potion, that magsorc lost ~12k-13k mag from Streaking 3 times at the beginning, lost 3k stam from using Dark Conversion and gained 4k mag back, reseted Streak penalty and lost another ~7.5k from Streaking twice.

That magsorc lost a total of ~15.5k mag and 3k stam from using Streak and Dark Conversion. I lost 7.7k stam and a potion. My mag was full, because I didn’t even use Streak to prove a point. What point are you trying to make?

I am still unclear what point you were trying to make by this. Thats all i was asking for. You said sorcs aren't uncatchable. Then showed us a video of you not catching one. Rather than go back and forth I'll just digress and forget I asked. Take care.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

While we’re at it, why don’t we just nerf movement speed too yea? Look how easily accessible movement speed has become. Sorc used to be the glass cannon class thriving on being extremely mobile and fast as a form of mitigation . Now everyone is fast. You can take away their defenses and even Streak but if you don’t take away the movement speed power creep then you’ve just effectively destroyed an entire class. I would just go Warden/Plar/DK at that point lol.


Take that into consideration before asking for a nerf hammer. @xylena_lazarow @Thumbless_Bot @VinnyGambini

I am not asking for a nerf, only that ranged damage scale with distance. Then, if people want to nerf themselves by standing 35m away. That's up to them.

Ranged weapons already have less base weapon/spell damage than melee weapons (so all of your abilities are weaker just for choosing a ranged weapon) and ranged abilities have lower damage tooltips than melee abilities for the same stats. How much more difference do you need?

Yeah, I posted about this and while ago. I used snipe and dizzy as the example as they both have .6 second case time. The difference is about 10% but it doesn't scale with distance. I would say 1% per meter past say 15m is a good starting point.

Here is my post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

While we’re at it, why don’t we just nerf movement speed too yea? Look how easily accessible movement speed has become. Sorc used to be the glass cannon class thriving on being extremely mobile and fast as a form of mitigation . Now everyone is fast. You can take away their defenses and even Streak but if you don’t take away the movement speed power creep then you’ve just effectively destroyed an entire class. I would just go Warden/Plar/DK at that point lol.


Take that into consideration before asking for a nerf hammer. @xylena_lazarow @Thumbless_Bot @VinnyGambini

I am not asking for a nerf, only that ranged damage scale with distance. Then, if people want to nerf themselves by standing 35m away. That's up to them.

Ranged weapons already have less base weapon/spell damage than melee weapons (so all of your abilities are weaker just for choosing a ranged weapon) and ranged abilities have lower damage tooltips than melee abilities for the same stats. How much more difference do you need?

Yeah, I posted about this and while ago. I used snipe and dizzy as the example as they both have .6 second case time. The difference is about 10% but it doesn't scale with distance. I would say 1% per meter past say 15m is a good starting point.

Here is my post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

So you're comparing a pure damage ranged skill to a melee skill with off balance and a conditional stun, the melee skill is doing 10% more damage, plus running a bow instead of a melee weapon is making the Snipe user's heals and melee abilities weaker. If anything, ranged needs a buff.

Slot a gap closer.