PVP is becoming unbearable due solely to sorc being giga broken

xylena_lazarow

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

Thumbless_Bot

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

While we’re at it, why don’t we just nerf movement speed too yea? Look how easily accessible movement speed has become. Sorc used to be the glass cannon class thriving on being extremely mobile and fast as a form of mitigation . Now everyone is fast. You can take away their defenses and even Streak but if you don’t take away the movement speed power creep then you’ve just effectively destroyed an entire class. I would just go Warden/Plar/DK at that point lol.


Take that into consideration before asking for a nerf hammer. @xylena_lazarow @Thumbless_Bot @VinnyGambini

I am not asking for a nerf, only that ranged damage scale with distance. Then, if people want to nerf themselves by standing 35m away. That's up to them.

Ranged weapons already have less base weapon/spell damage than melee weapons (so all of your abilities are weaker just for choosing a ranged weapon) and ranged abilities have lower damage tooltips than melee abilities for the same stats. How much more difference do you need?

Yeah, I posted about this and while ago. I used snipe and dizzy as the example as they both have .6 second case time. The difference is about 10% but it doesn't scale with distance. I would say 1% per meter past say 15m is a good starting point.

Here is my post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

So you're comparing a pure damage ranged skill to a melee skill with off balance and a conditional stun, the melee skill is doing 10% more damage, plus running a bow instead of a melee weapon is making the Snipe user's heals and melee abilities weaker. If anything, ranged needs a buff.

Slot a gap closer.

Lol. Good one.

Seriously though, ranged damage should hit hard but melee should hit harder. The further you are the less damage it should do. Nothing you said changes or counters that Argument.

Instead of me slotting a gap closer, the person using ranged damage should understand that there's a risk reward to running ranged and the closer you are the more reward you get, the further you are, the less damage you do, meaning you get less reward because you've taken less risk. It's pretty straightforward a d I've said all of this above.

If that means snipe hits as hard as dizzy within melee, that's actually a good thing for balance. Then, if the ranged player wants to hit hard they have to give something up, namely defense or sustain. This makes a lot of sense because then melee players who can survive the ranged damage can get to the player and outlast them. Right now this is not the case and that makes it imbalanced. Again, I've said all of this above.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

It’s literally not difficult at all. Pre U40 = Sorc was bad. Post U40 = Sorc is top tier. Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

10% extra max mag and Hardened Ward buff were the 2 main reasons why Sorc became top tier, not Streak, not Dark Deal, not Mage’s Wrath. Anybody else complaining about those abilities has a l2p issue. I literally do not have an issue vs magsorc now and I play wardless stamsorc. Took me 3 weeks to adapt when U40 came out. I got farmed by magsorcs so hard during those first 3 weeks I had to theorycraft my build again and truthfully, it made my build better than the builds I had before U40. DK, Warden, Plar & NB in the right build stomps magsorc too.

Oh and if you can make a build that survives magsorc and stomps it, then your build will also stomp 99% of builds out there.

Vaqual

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

It’s literally not difficult at all. Pre U40 = Sorc was bad. Post U40 = Sorc is top tier. Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

10% extra max mag and Hardened Ward buff were the 2 main reasons why Sorc became top tier, not Streak, not Dark Deal, not Mage’s Wrath. Anybody else complaining about those abilities has a l2p issue. I literally do not have an issue vs magsorc now and I play wardless stamsorc. Took me 3 weeks to adapt when U40 came out. I got farmed so hard those first 3 weeks I had to theory craft my build again and truthfully, it’s better than before. DK, Warden, Plar & NB in the right build stomps magsorc too.

Oh and if you can make a build that survives magsorc and stomps it, then your build will also stomp 99% of builds out there.

That is only one way to see it. Because let's be honest, not all expert-opinions here always hit the mark when it comes to sorc power assessments (see classics such as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651272/sorcerer-changes-good-ish-but-more-is-needed/p1).

How often was it claimed before that "all sorc needs" is a non-matriarch cast time free burst heal? And how often was it claimed that the lack of such an ability is justification for certain advantages sorc enjoys?

If your luggage is 25 kg and you need to take something out for the next flight it doesn't matter what you pick, you just need to make it 2 kg lighter. You can keep moving the same two pairs of shoes in and out or you just leave the steam iron and be done.

Major_Mangle

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

It’s literally not difficult at all. Pre U40 = Sorc was bad. Post U40 = Sorc is top tier. Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

10% extra max mag and Hardened Ward buff were the 2 main reasons why Sorc became top tier, not Streak, not Dark Deal, not Mage’s Wrath. Anybody else complaining about those abilities has a l2p issue. I literally do not have an issue vs magsorc now and I play wardless stamsorc. Took me 3 weeks to adapt when U40 came out. I got farmed so hard those first 3 weeks I had to theory craft my build again and truthfully, it’s better than before. DK, Warden, Plar & NB in the right build stomps magsorc too.

Oh and if you can make a build that survives magsorc and stomps it, then your build will also stomp 99% of builds out there.

Streak and dark deal has always been an "S-tier" tools that made sure sorc was never bad tho (regardless of stam- or magsorc), so on the entire "pre U40 sorc was bad" statement I´m just gonna disagree. It did have a much much higher skill ceiling (at least if talking magsorc) than other classes which made it harder for the average player to make it work, doesn´t mean it was bad however.

The problem with magsorc is obviously the fact that hardened ward has a heal attached to it, which it shouldn´t have in the first place. The two other issues isn´t even related to sorc specifically (maybe a little) but rather that sustain in the game overall is way too easy to get (can spam streak/ward forever), and ranged damage is way too overtuned (and has no downsides, like less damage compared to melee, due to how stat crept the game has become). Fix those things (and for the love of god nerf the living hell of status effects and ele sus), sorc will be in a more balanced spot.

StaticWave

Major_Mangle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

It’s literally not difficult at all. Pre U40 = Sorc was bad. Post U40 = Sorc is top tier. Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

10% extra max mag and Hardened Ward buff were the 2 main reasons why Sorc became top tier, not Streak, not Dark Deal, not Mage’s Wrath. Anybody else complaining about those abilities has a l2p issue. I literally do not have an issue vs magsorc now and I play wardless stamsorc. Took me 3 weeks to adapt when U40 came out. I got farmed so hard those first 3 weeks I had to theory craft my build again and truthfully, it’s better than before. DK, Warden, Plar & NB in the right build stomps magsorc too.

Oh and if you can make a build that survives magsorc and stomps it, then your build will also stomp 99% of builds out there.

Streak and dark deal has always been an "S-tier" tools that made sure sorc was never bad tho (regardless of stam- or magsorc), so on the entire "pre U40 sorc was bad" statement I´m just gonna disagree. It did have a much much higher skill ceiling (at least if talking magsorc) than other classes which made it harder for the average player to make it work, doesn´t mean it was bad however.

The problem with magsorc is obviously the fact that hardened ward has a heal attached to it, which it shouldn´t have in the first place. The two other issues isn´t even related to sorc specifically (maybe a little) but rather that sustain in the game overall is way too easy to get (can spam streak/ward forever), and ranged damage is way too overtuned (and has no downsides, like less damage compared to melee, due to how stat crept the game has become). Fix those things (and for the love of god nerf the living hell of status effects and ele sus), sorc will be in a more balanced spot.

Yes, it wasn’t bad pre U40, but I don’t think it was remotely close to Warden or NB either. The 10% extra mag and Ward buff completely elevated it to S tier status. One simple fix could be halving the max mag to 5% and turning the Ward heal into a HoT. If it’s too much, then ZOS can tweak the numbers, but at least we know exactly what’s causing the issue for magsorc.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, I'm just tired of catching strays

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Welcome to the club. As a wardless magsorc

Your personal choice to play an off meta Sorc variant has nothing to do with the experience of Sorc opponents. Devs will eventually do something about Sorc's indefinite disengage/reengage just like they did with NB, because it's bad PvP. I think it's fair to ask "hey can we do this without ruining StamSorc" but I genuinely don't think StamSorc would be affected much when it doesn't even need Streak spam unless it's being intentionally reckless.

However, the mere existence of Wardless MagSorc is something that specifically demonstrates how crazy the combination of spammable teleport and ranged nuke damage has become. There's too much generically available defensive power to force a spec like that into still being a true glass cannon. Still funny after thousands of posts in that Ward thread, how quiet Sorcs are about it after the nerf happened and they realized their class is still incredibly strong.

So lets see if I have this right.

There's a few wardsorcs on PC NA specifically that are playing the class in the way the class is supposed to be played (as hit and run) and the exact same way the class has been played for literally years now, and the response to that is, instead of running any of the countless existing reliable soft-counters in your build (that are also useful against any class/build), or calling for an adjustment to the 1 specific ability that was recently changed, that enables that playstyle to be strong (see ward), to be adjusted. No, instead the call is for the complete nuking of the entire class out of existence to fit it back into a few players preferred tiny little bubbles of how they think the game is supposed to be played...

Pre-U41, Magsorc was a literal joke of a class in PvP and was widely viewed as nothing but a free kill, yet with literally zero changes to streak or the other speed options that all classes have access to, suddenly streak has become a massive issue after U41??? Something's wrong with the logic here...

Just so we all can understand, ZOS already did something many years ago about the "infinite disengage/re-engage" of sorc, it's called a ramping cost on streak. The only difference now is that sorc has ward (basically a selfish polar wind). Nothing else has changed, so it seems clear to me that streak is fine and ward is the problem here.

There are also plenty of options that can easily fit in any build that are effective in countering streak spam, which is something that @StaticWave has proven ITT and in other threads too via actual gameplay video evidence (which is more than anyone complaining about streak has ever provided) to be very effective in countering streak.

It's not the sorcs fault or ZOS's fault if players refuse to use any of those existing options that counter streak, many of which have practically zero opportunity cost to slot into a build due to also being very strong tools against all the other classes as well as against sorc. It's also not the sorcs or ZOS's fault that some players just choose to constantly play into that specific hit and run playstyle instead of smartly playing around it, even just with simple things like using terrain and LoS that doesn't require any adjustments to sets/skills/champ points/potions/etc that have the bonus effect of baiting the sorc into melee range if they want to keep casting on you (or at least it forces them to go engage an easier target, either result is a win).

I am curious about 1 thing though, what makes you think my wardless sorc (who's build I haven't even posted) is not running any defense at all outside of streak (as was inferred by your comment) and is supposedly just this OP nuke spamming juggernaut that only needs streak to survive?

Yes, it's an off-meta build, but streak and ranged damage are not what is allowing the build to function. I quite often I find myself wanting to drop streak for RaT, but then I don't have a reliable CC in the build, so if I drop streak for RaT, it's a trade-off of less kill threat for more reliable/cheaper mobility.
As for ranged damage I have:
- shield throw (every class has this or wield soul or crushing shock)
- delayed burst is frags (every class has something equivalent that is also ranged except DK, but DK is designed to be pure melee)
- either endless fury (execute, wrath not worth it as it is reduced by evasion buff) OR curse (mid ability now that evasion buff reduces its damage and only worth considering due to the second burst that allows a more flexible time window to line up the burst)
Not exactly a crazy sorc specific ranged kit there, with the only thing potentially being fury, although NB has impale, plar has beam, Arc had flail and technically speaking (if we want to get technical), necro has the death knell passive that does work at range too. DK and warden technically don't have execute abilities although one could argue leap (ranged) being so much damage lets it be used as an execute to finish off a target and northern (massive AoE to basically be ranged) scales up in damage over its duration too.

As for defensive abilities, I am running the same amount of defensive abilities that my plar does, and this is not even counting streak which is both a defensive ability and an offensive stun (could count javelin as both too since it has knock back):
- Heal soul (resource restore + vitality) - all classes have this
- resolving vigor - all classes have this
- crit surge - all classes have a HoT, not as directly strong as surge per heal instance, other class HoTs are more passive so easier to get full healing value from them
- conversion (for sustain) - not enough sustain on its own, see below
- bound aegis (resolve + protection) - most classes have protection in their kit and get resolve from vigor anyway, which frees up this bar slot on other classes
- boundless storm (major resolve + speed) - all classes have unique major resolve options/effects
- streak (more mobility and CC) - other classes easily replace this with RaT or mist form and the free spot from BA for a CC
- resto ult (my oh [snip]! panic heal) - other classes have a built in class ultimate that does this, sorc doesn't
- sword and shield front bar (this is for shield throw as my spammable that provides breach, cowardice or defile since I run heal soul, but it also gives spell wall as a mixed offense/defense ultimate) - all classes have this option
- Lastly, wretched vitality set back bar - all classes have this option too
Options here aren't exactly unique to sorc outside of streak, but RaT is a super easy replacement (again, also something that I consider running over streak as a more reliable mobility option, but when I do, I also need to find another CC option or the build lacks CC pressure to have kill threat).

How can a spec that requires slotting more than an entire skill bars worth of defensive abilities, including streak, plus a defensive set back bar (the same investment into defense that plar currently requires) be even remotely construed as proof that streak + ranged damage, let alone the rest of the kit outside of ward, is OP? It seems to me that the wardless sorc build is a very balanced build that can be easily mimicked by the other classes, even though it has the "big bad scary OP" streak, since majority of its abilities are scribing, weapon or have equivalent options.

This is relevant because as a wardless sorc main, I know exactly where streak sits balance wise and it really is not as strong as people think it is unless they are directly playing into it or its paired specifically with max mag ward. If streak truly was as OP as many try to claim, my wardless sorc setup would have worked fine pre-ward buff (which it didn't). It would also be just as strong and be seen everywhere post ward buff/post ward adjustment same as Warden, Wardsorc and NB, but it isn't, and it isn't even close, which means what pushed sorc into the top tiers and is holding it there is specifically ward and ward alone. This is unlike NB, where NB without cloak was easily a top-tier brawler build in its own right due to how strong the entire rest of the kit was without cloak. Sorc without ward is just plar, but trading execute threat for better upfront burst combination and, debatably, marginally better mobility. Sorc with ward is basically polar warden, but trading AoE damage and group utility/support for a reliable CC and, debatably, marginally better mobility. Streak really doesn't make a difference to sorcs rankings in the tiers, or the class would have been rated s-tier by everyone pre-ward buff and we all know (and can go look up for ourselves) that it wasn't and it wasn't even close to s-tier.

Lets be honest with ourselves here, there's only 1 real balance issue with sorcs kit currently and that is specifically ward, which has already seen a decent nerf to it. A nerf that has been effective enough that we are already seeing the trend of sorc starting to fall off and warden coming up to take its place at the top. It will take time for this to filter down to the popularity metrics displayed earlier (as was noted by them), but the trend has already started (as was also noted by them).

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

@StaticWave the people ITT are all over the place so I tried to zero in on identifying the indefinite disengage/reengage play pattern that is making players complain about Sorcs. I have no idea how to solve it, and it's not my job to solve it. Sorc probably needs a systemic rework like Blade has undergone the past few years.

Everything is also compounded by general defense and sustain power creep (outpacing offensive creep), where former glass cannon specs gain the most since their intended weakness has been eliminated, like we've seen with Blade.

It’s literally not difficult at all. Pre U40 = Sorc was bad. Post U40 = Sorc is top tier. Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

10% extra max mag and Hardened Ward buff were the 2 main reasons why Sorc became top tier, not Streak, not Dark Deal, not Mage’s Wrath. Anybody else complaining about those abilities has a l2p issue. I literally do not have an issue vs magsorc now and I play wardless stamsorc. Took me 3 weeks to adapt when U40 came out. I got farmed so hard those first 3 weeks I had to theory craft my build again and truthfully, it’s better than before. DK, Warden, Plar & NB in the right build stomps magsorc too.

Oh and if you can make a build that survives magsorc and stomps it, then your build will also stomp 99% of builds out there.

Streak and dark deal has always been an "S-tier" tools that made sure sorc was never bad tho (regardless of stam- or magsorc), so on the entire "pre U40 sorc was bad" statement I´m just gonna disagree. It did have a much much higher skill ceiling (at least if talking magsorc) than other classes which made it harder for the average player to make it work, doesn´t mean it was bad however.

The problem with magsorc is obviously the fact that hardened ward has a heal attached to it, which it shouldn´t have in the first place. The two other issues isn´t even related to sorc specifically (maybe a little) but rather that sustain in the game overall is way too easy to get (can spam streak/ward forever), and ranged damage is way too overtuned (and has no downsides, like less damage compared to melee, due to how stat crept the game has become). Fix those things (and for the love of god nerf the living hell of status effects and ele sus), sorc will be in a more balanced spot.

Yes, it wasn’t bad pre U40, but I don’t think it was remotely close to Warden or NB either. The 10% extra mag and Ward buff completely elevated it to S tier status. One simple fix could be halving the max mag to 5% and turning the Ward heal into a HoT. If it’s too much, then ZOS can tweak the numbers, but at least we know exactly what’s causing the issue for magsorc.

Honestly, I don't think both of those need to be done, just one or the other. Adjust the total max stats somewhere in sorcs kit, or adjust ward itself (heal to HoT or shield size).

Halving the max mag from expert summoner to 5% is a 10% overall nerf to ward (5% each on shield strength and heal), but it also directly nerfs wardless sorcs which are still not exactly top tier right now (not unplayable, but not top tier). Instead replace max stats on BA with major prophecy/savagery which ends up being a 30% nerf to ward when accounting for just how bad slotting inner light would be with that single change to BA which would force inner light off of sorcs bars unless they were giving up literally everything to build for ward (BA 8% + inner light 5% + MG passive 2% is 15% off both shield size and heal each for a 30% total nerf to ward).

The advantages of this change over the direct nerf to expert summoner is that wardless sorcs (and stamsorcs) remain in roughly the same as they currently are (8% loss of max stats for gain of major prophecy/savagery in class kit and a freed up slot (or potion) from not needing inner light, camo hunter or crit pots), while ward sorcs specifically are toned down by a significant amount. PvE tanksorcs remain unaffected (and are actually slightly buffed) since they scale their wards off health, not mag, and the crit chance on aegis will help them with surge and crit healing in general. If this nerf to ward is too strong, then ZOS can easily revert/change the recent adjustment to wards heal making it super easy to balance ward specifically, since it no longer has as much max mag to scale off.

Zabagad

Vaqual wrote: »

If your luggage is 25 kg and you need to take something out for the next flight it doesn't matter what you pick, you just need to make it 2 kg lighter. You can keep moving the same two pairs of shoes in and out or you just leave the steam iron and be done.

When your luggage was 20kg before and somebody put a 5Kg weight plate in it - maybe it makes more sence to take out that additional weight first instead of your socks and underwear?

And if they take the 5kg out - maybe there is some weight left over for a new t-shirt?

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I am curious about 1 thing though, what makes you think my wardless sorc (who's build I haven't even posted) is not running any defense at all outside of streak (as was inferred by your comment) and is supposedly just this OP nuke spamming juggernaut that only needs streak to survive?

Yea a wardless Sorc build is just like any other build that other classes run. I still need to build 30k-33k resistances and invest into mitigation to survive dmg. They’re making it out like wardless Sorc is some god tier spec when it’s not even close to what Mech Acuity Warden can do lolol

Vaqual

Zabagad wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If your luggage is 25 kg and you need to take something out for the next flight it doesn't matter what you pick, you just need to make it 2 kg lighter. You can keep moving the same two pairs of shoes in and out or you just leave the steam iron and be done.

When your luggage was 20kg before and somebody put a 5Kg weight plate in it - maybe it makes more sence to take out that additional weight first instead of your socks and underwear?

And if they take the 5kg out - maybe there is some weight left over for a new t-shirt?

I feel as if that is pretty much what I said, I don't know if I am able to formulate sentences that can convey the same information more directly:

Vaqual wrote: »

Sorc has received a substantially improved kit (scribing + buffs) and retained all the disproportionate power that comes with streak, which was often cited as the reason for the differences in the class kit, based on the vision for it. Something has to give.

Vaqual wrote: »

In my opinion it just doesn't need to be unblockable. If you give people the chance to properly defend against the class there will also be more room for certain buffs.

Whatever you feel like sacrificing. Losing (for example) unblockable status on one ability vs 10 % max resource, a drastically improved toolkit and an excessively strong shield ability seems like a bargain then? Unless...?

In the end this is just an example. Of course I will focus on what I perceive as the most obnoxious aspect of a class I perceive as too strong. As to why I think so is written in several of my other posts. I don't know what else to answer to this extremely witty spin on my metaphor.

__________________________

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I am curious about 1 thing though, what makes you think my wardless sorc (who's build I haven't even posted) is not running any defense at all outside of streak (as was inferred by your comment) and is supposedly just this OP nuke spamming juggernaut that only needs streak to survive?

Yea a wardless Sorc build is just like any other build that other classes run. I still need to build 30k-33k resistances and invest into mitigation to survive dmg. They’re making it out like wardless Sorc is some god tier spec when it’s not even close to what Mech Acuity Warden can do lolol

Sorry for not dunking on warden in the sorc thread. That disqualifying statement was well deserved. People should try to skirt the lines of the topic a bit better next time.

IncultaWolf

https://eso-pvp-builds.com/class-tier-list/

Buff necromancer before we nerf anything, unless it's polar wind then delete the ability to heal an ally since it's a tank ability.

Turtle_Bot

Vaqual wrote: »

Whatever you feel like sacrificing. Losing (for example) unblockable status on one ability vs 10 % max resource, a drastically improved toolkit and an excessively strong shield ability seems like a bargain then? Unless...?

hmmm, interesting you bring this up, because back in U36, I proposed an even harsher nerf to streak than just making the stun blockable (my proposed nerf was that the stun was removed entirely and replaced with a snare), and that proposed nerf was just to have a heal that was on the level of HtD, nothing as powerful as Polar or what ward became.

Yet that idea was shot down by every single non-sorc commenting on the thread at the time as, too OP, too broken, not enough of a nerf to justify giving sorc a heal even one that is only on the level of HtD.

Interesting to note also that a lot of my proposed ideas for sorc in that thread were about giving it an option to be a melee brawler through various changes to specific morphs/abilities, yet those ideas were shouted down just the same as my proposed effective deletion of streak.

The comments on that thread (and the countless sorc threads since) have proven to me that 99% of forum commenters that are anti-sorc either likely haven't played the game in over half a decade or just have a personal vendetta against sorc. The comments on that thread are also why I don't trust 90%+ of commenters on the forums when it comes to discussing balancing, especially balancing sorc. The vast majority of commenters complaining about sorc being OP have proven themselves to just be completely biased/uninformed. One objective look through this thread is all the proof needed of just how biased/uninformed the majority of those complaining about sorc are.

Note: there are SOME legitimate complaints that I agree need addressing (see ward), but people are literally complaining about things like fury for crying out loud. Literally one of the worst, most unreliable and most buggy executes in the game is being complained about in this very thread as "OP", like what the [snip]? I know not everyone is of equal skill, but that is just taking the mick...

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

Look, my bad for getting into it over Streak, let's let the devs figure out the answer to this, because we clearly agree on that part. Zero players seem to agree on what exactly makes Sorc top tier, but a lot of players agree that some resulting play patterns like indefinite disengage/reengage are a problem.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Just tone down whatever made Sorc top tier and we have a balanced Sorc.

Look, my bad for getting into it over Streak, let's let the devs figure out the answer to this, because we clearly agree on that part. Zero players seem to agree on what exactly makes Sorc top tier, but a lot of players agree that some resulting play patterns like indefinite disengage/reengage are a problem.

Nah you’re good. I agree that magsorc and ranged damage in general still needs some adjustments. It’s just strange to see some people want to completely gut the class for unrelated reasons.

Like I said in my Ward nerf thread:

StaticWave wrote: »

The 5% nerf almost changes nothing for builds with 50k+ max mag

At 50k max mag, the heal tooltip is 7500 on the live server, and 5000 on the PTS. With Battle Spirit, that’s a 3375 heal on the live server and 2250 on the PTS. The difference is only 1125 heal, which is negligible.

The issue is magsorcs with 50k+ mag will have around 13k+ shields. You would need to go through that shield first before you can chip away at their HP. Even if magsorcs lose 1125 heal from PTS Ward, all they gotta do is cast Ward 2-3 times and heal back to full (especially if some of them crit heal).

Unfortunately as long as the heal stays a burst heal, you can’t really adjust high max mag builds without screwing over lower max mag builds. Converting it to a HoT would be a better idea. With that 7500 tooltip spread out over 4 seconds, magsorcs would be healed for 1875 tooltip every second. That’s a 843 heal tick which is decent enough but not broken.

The slight heal nerf is a bandaid fix because magsorcs can still spam those 13-14k wards until they’re full again. You’ll be able to kill them with really really high pressure builds now, but normal builds won’t be able to dent them at all. You want to address their ability to stack 50k+ max mag or convert that burst heal into a HoT to really see a difference.

Then there’s the l2p issue as well. I normally don't like to bring that up in a balance discussion, but given that there's been a surge in magsorc players, how many people here have actually tried to update their build to fight magsorc? When I made that Ward nerf thread, I was still in the process of relearning how to build and fight magsorc. I went from dominating magsorc matchups pre U40 to getting farmed by magsorcs post U40. It was demoralizing, but I knew I needed to adapt if I wanted to win. It took a while, but the l2p process for me was worth it because now my build is stronger than before. I don’t think a lot of people here actually tried to adapt to the new reality. Sure complaining is well deserved, but adapting is also necessary to see if it’s truly a balance issue or just a l2p issue.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Sure complaining is well deserved, but adapting is also necessary to see if it’s truly a balance issue or just a l2p issue.

I don't think a lot of the complaints are win/lose though, but a play pattern issue. The Sorc gets to decide terms of engagement 100% of the time against a nonSorc. The Sorc decides when, where, and if the fight happens.

Mayrael

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why would you want to nerf Streak when Streak has never been a problem?

Don't care whether it's a Streak nerf or some other way. The cost of disengage/reengage should be in line with what Cloak now is, which imo is pretty balanced and makes engaging NBs worthwhile again. I used to be pretty adamant about not nerfing Streak but after realizing it's actually fun to fight NBs again post Cloak nerf, I have seen what could be. It's not like good NB players aren't still elusive and difficult to pin down.

That said, they could also delete ranged damage from PvP instead, and I'd be happy with that too.

There is a cost and it’s called ramping cost. If you want to address 50k max mag sorcs spamming streak then address their ability to stack max mag. Why should my spec suffer lol? I have 20k mag and I can barely use it 3 times before I’m out of mag.

Funny thing to say when stamblades said the same thing on cloak and it's change.

moo_2021

.

StaticWave wrote: »

There is a cost and it’s called ramping cost. If you want to address 50k max mag sorcs spamming streak then address their ability to stack max mag. Why should my spec suffer lol? I have 20k mag and I can barely use it 3 times before I’m out of mag.

or remove the mag-based scaling. Why is ward the only shield skill with it?

MidniteOwl1913

If it's not one class it's another. DK, Nighblades, sorcs, some class is *always* overpowered. Who turn in the barrel will it be next? (I think it will be vampires BTW)

If the stats change the best players will move on, even ZOS can't nerf skill.

xylena_lazarow

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If it's not one class it's another. DK, Nighblades, sorcs, some class is *always* overpowered. Who turn in the barrel will it be next?

Not really. Complaints are a lot less during brawler metas, and a lot more when the top meta class isn't just strong, but also has "unfair" tools like teleportation, invisibility, or ranged nuke damage.

H_E

PVP becomes unbearable to play because you cant punish mistakes on sorc and nb to a lesser extent

ran in without buffs up, streak away 5 times reset the fight and boom mistakes not punished
about to die cuz never buffs ran out, shield and streak away 4 times and reset the fight once more and consequences of being lazy on uptimes forgotten
dont feel like being hit streak.
they stampeding after you? stun with streak and go over a tiny rock now they cant any more since streak a 15m skill vs chares a 22m skill that place you 5m away that need perfect los to activate> once more no punishment for mis playing

nb loosing a fight stealth at least stealth reset resources and health, but can be countered by detection meanwhile streak has nothing except negate to prevent it and negate is an ultimate in a small area

arc portal same as streak but its only usable once ever 7 seconds meaning you have time to catch them but they can reuse it to stay at range if they play around it, its not a get out of any misplay on your end for free card that sorc has

Streak needs counterplay that is lacks either a 4 second lock out and remove the ramping cost or make the ramp cost increase in duration too so its a 20sec increase in cost if they want to streak 5 times so there is a point to pressure them and make them streak on repeat until they cant afford it and its too expensive to use endlessly cuz 4 second lost increase is a joke streak 3 times for 8k mag and wait 4 seconds and back too full mag able to do it again

Duke_Falcon

How did I not get an invitation to this discussion? 8-P

I'm going to suggest a few changes and I may live to regret it.

1. Nerf the heal on Hardend Ward maybe another 20%, possibly even take it off, but leave the Shield size alone, nerfing that will make Sorc unplayable again in my opinion. Maybe even let it scale with Stamina for StaticWave. 8-)
2. Take the cast time off of Dark Deal & Dark Conversion, so less distance is needed in fights to make it usable. ie. So 2 streaks aren't needed, and Sorc don't have to run away so much.
3. Change the burst heal on Dark Deal & Dark Conversion to a 20 second HoT, so Power Surge not Critical Surge becomes viable with using it.
4. Another possible idea is to give Rune Prison a 10 second HoT similar in strength to Templars Living Dark & Wardens Living Vines. People could get rid of Streak altogether if they wanted then. If this is an appealing change then combine Crit Surge and Dark Conversion into one skill, but lose the burst heal & cast time of Dark Conversion while keeping the passive heal from Crit Surge and the resource sustain from Dark Conversion. Call it Dark Surge or Critical Conversion!!!

Just fyi so everyone knows my perpective. I used to main Warden before Sword & Board as a PvP dps before it was nerfed into nonexistence via the Champion Point System over haul. I almost quit the game. I played Necro for a bit, and enjoyed it, honestly people sleep on that class, its better than they think. After that I decided to pick up the well know weakest and least played class in the game, this was like 2 years before U40. Let me tell you Sorc was trash, it was unplayable. You could either tank up, or run, or be instantly swatted down as a glass cannon, but anywhere in the middle of those 3 things was a no mans land of non-existence.

The recent changes made Sorc playable again, as StaticWave & Turtle_Bot can attest to. The 3 of us have discussed Sorc changes to death. Its a breath of fresh are to see StaticWave as a Stam Sorc defend the Mag Sorc a little bit. After playing Sorc, after the changes, I'll say this, its now strong. Is it unbalanced in that its too weak? In some ways yes. is it unbalanced in that its too strong? Maybe, I'm not sure, but I definitely remember when it was unplayable.

Regarding xylena_lazarow & Thumbless_Bot's comments about the Sorc hitting you then turning away and running the second you look at them. Some people just won't straight up fight you in a fair fight, its a thing. Some people are just cowards. Sorcs do have to stay mobile though, if they don't they will die. They don't have to run away, unless its from a 12 man group, then everyone has to run away, and the speed creep in this game makes it possible to run away and catch people if you really want to as StaticWave pointed out.. I've found in 1v1's on my Sorc I don't have to run away anymore, but I still have to stay mobile, and sometimes I have to use 2 streaks just to turn around and get in one dps skill rotation on Wardens because they are so fast. The same is true when fighting Mag DK's because they can lock you down so hard, you need the distance to heal up and return a dps combo back back at them.

In conclusion to balance Sorcs current weakness, yes it has them and thats why people streak so much (unless they are just ***, then that can't be helped no matter what), with its current strengths, which I'm not even sure are to much, but if your buffing a HoT, then the heal on Ward may need nerfed.

1. Nerf the heal on Hardend Ward maybe another 20%, possibly even take it off, but leave the Shield size alone, nerfing that will make Sorc unplayable again in my opinion. Maybe even let its size scale with Stamina for StaticWave. 8-)
2. Take the cast time off of Dark Deal & Dark Conversion, so less distance is needed in fights to make it usable. ie. So 2 streaks aren't needed, and Sorc doesn't have to run away so much.
3. Change the burst heal on Dark Deal & Dark Conversion to a 20 second HoT, so Power Surge not Critical Surge becomes viable with using it.
4. Another possible idea is to give Rune Prison a 10 second HoT similar in strength to Templars Living Dark & Wardens Living Vines. People could get rid of Streak altogether if they wanted then. If this is an appealing change then combine Crit Surge and Dark Conversion into one skill, but lose the burst heal & cast time of Dark Conversion while keeping the passive heal from Crit Surge and the resource sustain from Dark Conversion. Call it Dark Surge or Critical Conversion!!!

Lastly I'm prone to typos, so sorry but I'm not going back thru this 10 times to find them. lol

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sure complaining is well deserved, but adapting is also necessary to see if it’s truly a balance issue or just a l2p issue.

I don't think a lot of the complaints are win/lose though, but a play pattern issue. The Sorc gets to decide terms of engagement 100% of the time against a nonSorc. The Sorc decides when, where, and if the fight happens.

Well from my experience, I don't get to decide terms of engagement because I'm always getting zerged and fighting outnumbered lol.

StaticWave

Mayrael wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why would you want to nerf Streak when Streak has never been a problem?

Don't care whether it's a Streak nerf or some other way. The cost of disengage/reengage should be in line with what Cloak now is, which imo is pretty balanced and makes engaging NBs worthwhile again. I used to be pretty adamant about not nerfing Streak but after realizing it's actually fun to fight NBs again post Cloak nerf, I have seen what could be. It's not like good NB players aren't still elusive and difficult to pin down.

That said, they could also delete ranged damage from PvP instead, and I'd be happy with that too.

There is a cost and it’s called ramping cost. If you want to address 50k max mag sorcs spamming streak then address their ability to stack max mag. Why should my spec suffer lol? I have 20k mag and I can barely use it 3 times before I’m out of mag.

Funny thing to say when stamblades said the same thing on cloak and it's change.

Pretty sure I asked for a ramping cost on Cloak but the NB mains (mainly gankers) refused.

StaticWave

H_E wrote: »

PVP becomes unbearable to play because you cant punish mistakes on sorc and nb to a lesser extent

ran in without buffs up, streak away 5 times reset the fight and boom mistakes not punished
about to die cuz never buffs ran out, shield and streak away 4 times and reset the fight once more and consequences of being lazy on uptimes forgotten
dont feel like being hit streak.
they stampeding after you? stun with streak and go over a tiny rock now they cant any more since streak a 15m skill vs chares a 22m skill that place you 5m away that need perfect los to activate> once more no punishment for mis playing

nb loosing a fight stealth at least stealth reset resources and health, but can be countered by detection meanwhile streak has nothing except negate to prevent it and negate is an ultimate in a small area

arc portal same as streak but its only usable once ever 7 seconds meaning you have time to catch them but they can reuse it to stay at range if they play around it, its not a get out of any misplay on your end for free card that sorc has

Streak needs counterplay that is lacks either a 4 second lock out and remove the ramping cost or make the ramp cost increase in duration too so its a 20sec increase in cost if they want to streak 5 times so there is a point to pressure them and make them streak on repeat until they cant afford it and its too expensive to use endlessly cuz 4 second lost increase is a joke streak 3 times for 8k mag and wait 4 seconds and back too full mag able to do it again

This entire post just looks like a l2p issue, sorry.

StaticWave

H_E wrote: »

Streak needs counterplay that is lacks either a 4 second lock out and remove the ramping cost or make the ramp cost increase in duration too so its a 20sec increase in cost if they want to streak 5 times so there is a point to pressure them and make them streak on repeat until they cant afford it and its too expensive to use endlessly cuz 4 second lost increase is a joke streak 3 times for 8k mag and wait 4 seconds and back too full mag able to do it again

[snip]

From my perspective as a 1vXer and solo PvPer, I have never gotten away from a zerg by just Streaking 4x in a row. There's uneven terrain that can screw up Streak completely, gap closers, chain users, etc. I need to combine Streak with nearly capped movement speed just to BARELY get away from the zerg.

The simplest counter play is to build more movement speed, which not only helps you catch the Sorc, but also helps you evade every other PvPer. There's a reason why Major and Minor Expedition are so strong in Cyrodiil. There's a reason why almost all solo PvP builds require at least Major Expedition. There's literally zero drawbacks to building movement speed, so why not do it?

[Edit for Trolling and Baiting]

StaticWave

And to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me and around 15+ AD zerging down 1 particular magsorc that I don't really like. I don't normally zerg but this particular player has zerged me before so all I did was return the favor:

https://youtu.be/PsFHj_pHk6g

In this clip you can see every single counter used against him. At the start of the video you can see a DK using Chains on him. He streaked 4x in a row from 0:10 to 0:15. The zerg caught up to him at 0:20. That's 5 seconds.

This is what happens every single time to a solo PvPer. When you slot a gap closer, chains, or simply build decent movement speed, you can just ignore Streak completely. I would argue that the only reason he even got to Streak 4x in a row is because he dropped down a cliff and Streaked left twice to juke the zerg. If he was Streaking in a straight line at the start, he would have never gotten away. This clip alone should debunk everything in your post, but I know you will continue to complain lmao.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Well from my experience, I don't get to decide terms of engagement because I'm always getting zerged and fighting outnumbered lol.

But when you win a 1vX it's because you baited the zergers into fighting on your terms. Most efficient on Sorc.

I can escape zergs on my DK, but if they have Sorcs I need to be far away before those Sorcs can Streak spam to catch me. There's jack all I can do if I'm in Streak spam range and Sorc players want to zerg me down. I can dance around Wardens all day, Sorc is the only class that can threaten me this way.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Well from my experience, I don't get to decide terms of engagement because I'm always getting zerged and fighting outnumbered lol.

But when you win a 1vX it's because you baited the zergers into fighting on your terms. Most efficient on Sorc.

I can escape zergs on my DK, but if they have Sorcs I need to be far away before those Sorcs can Streak spam to catch me. There's jack all I can do if I'm in Streak spam range and Sorc players want to zerg me down. I can dance around Wardens all day, Sorc is the only class that can threaten me this way.

Every class can do it. The mere action of using LoS already forces the zerg to fight on my own terms.

Streak only helps you move quickly to LoS. In that regard yes, Streak does outperform other classes who don’t build into movement speed. However, a build with decent movement speed can achieve the same effect. During the patches where ZOS put a 3s cooldown on AoE abilities, I dropped Streak for Race Against Time and retained the ability to LoS at a high level. You can check that out here:

https://youtu.be/lt_p8wo6ZvQ?si=L2kXnC1RlkkI9uOu

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Every class can do it.

I do it on my DK and there's that one DC player that does it on a Necro.

But out of those zergers chasing me, there's only 2 real threats: good players, and Sorcs.