JavaRen wrote: »

Looks like you two might be using different definitions of "desructive criticism.:

I think the user means positive and negative, not constructive and destructive. Which is another good example that language is also a factor in an international forum that can lead to misunderstandings.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

I am glad I am not the only one having such problem. I had to stop posting on this forum because everything I write the mod accuse me of breaking the code of conduct, naming and shaming, bait and a long list of reasons I haven't done. Constructive or destructive criticism about the current state of the game is taken as bashing instead of being seen as a opportunity to make the game better. So the mod proceed to slap me with a forum ban (for now) to a paying customer since beta (10 years).

Destructive criticism is bashing to be fair. Try to be constructive when issuing cricitsm.

I want this game to be better not just for me but for current or future players. Destructive criticism are to be viewed as issues you need to resolve to make the game better. Removing/editing my comment because of "bashing" is like ignoring the problem and continue making it worse. Also, I said in my previous comment that even CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is considered as bashing.

Destructive criticism is not appropriate. You can express the same issues without being rude about it. Constructive criticism is fine and shouldn't be snipped. There are always going to be legitimate issues with any and every game. Nothing and nobody is perfect. Imperfection isn't an excuse to be destructive.

And I get that's easier said than done because we're all only human and sometimes we get mad and it gets the better of us. Doesn't make it not against the rules or something to be ignored by the mods.

Guess you think that by destructive criticism is always to use rude words and making threats and demands. Not everyone are that uncivilized when giving destructive criticism not with the intention of making harm but to highlight what can be done better. Like you said, I can express my opinion without being rude/insulting or demanding. But even using the most good conducted words and behavior I still get flagged as a "bad actor".

Deconstructive criticism isn't just rude words, although it often involves that. But it's also cricitsm that is designed to denigrate. It's bashing, basically.

Here are some examples. These are not real posts and are only meant to illustrate the concept so that some may understand moderation on a typical forum. These comments are not intended to be real feedback, only illustrations. Disclaimer: I have worked as a moderator for a different game but never this game. I don't work for ZOS.


"ZOS needs to fix PvP." <---Not particularly helpful because it's not identifying a problem, but neutral.

"The devs don't do anything but laugh at PvPers and they don't care about fixing any issue. They are too greedy and only care about crates. This game is dying and I'm quitting and you should too" <---This doesn't give anything actionable for them to fix. It may express frustration that there is too much micro transactions or that something needs to happen with PvP but it does so in a destructive way and is moreso about bashing them.

"The PvP in this game is in a bad state. Many skills don't fire and performance isn't good. Balance is really bad, for example Set Name is too effective. Also, the game feels unrewarding as too many cosmetics are locked behind micro transactions. Communication is not good which just makes these issues worse." <-- That is constrictive criticism. It's giving clear and critical feedback without being denigrating towards individual.

1 and 3 generally won't get deleted or actioned (although it definitely does happen sometimes and that's an issue) but number 2 would because it's primarily just bashing.

Some general tips

Try to be constructive.
Try to be specific.
Avoid being harsh towards the devs or any individual users.

I do understand your examples. Mine were like #3 (I like to give a lots of detail even use bulleted paragraphs to organize them better). Like I said, they still got removed and got flagged directly. I did notice some other users were a lot rude or bashful and they just get their comments edited. Granted those edits were done by different moderators. Mine is always the same one who delete them.

jcaceresw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

I am glad I am not the only one having such problem. I had to stop posting on this forum because everything I write the mod accuse me of breaking the code of conduct, naming and shaming, bait and a long list of reasons I haven't done. Constructive or destructive criticism about the current state of the game is taken as bashing instead of being seen as a opportunity to make the game better. So the mod proceed to slap me with a forum ban (for now) to a paying customer since beta (10 years).

Destructive criticism is bashing to be fair. Try to be constructive when issuing cricitsm.

I want this game to be better not just for me but for current or future players. Destructive criticism are to be viewed as issues you need to resolve to make the game better. Removing/editing my comment because of "bashing" is like ignoring the problem and continue making it worse. Also, I said in my previous comment that even CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is considered as bashing.

Destructive criticism is not appropriate. You can express the same issues without being rude about it. Constructive criticism is fine and shouldn't be snipped. There are always going to be legitimate issues with any and every game. Nothing and nobody is perfect. Imperfection isn't an excuse to be destructive.

And I get that's easier said than done because we're all only human and sometimes we get mad and it gets the better of us. Doesn't make it not against the rules or something to be ignored by the mods.

Guess you think that by destructive criticism is always to use rude words and making threats and demands. Not everyone are that uncivilized when giving destructive criticism not with the intention of making harm but to highlight what can be done better. Like you said, I can express my opinion without being rude/insulting or demanding. But even using the most good conducted words and behavior I still get flagged as a "bad actor".

The sole reason for me being on the forums is to try to have some feedback (or just simple communication) about some of the changes being made to the game which really seem to break the game for me and the way I've been able to play for years. NB cloak change for example has made it really frustrating and exhausting to play in PvP now. It's like I could make it work but I really don't want to bother because its stressful and no longer fun to play. That's just one example and there's really no reason for me to bother trying to make something that's broken work normally or pretend it's working just fine.

And so, I believe they may also consider me to be a 'bad actor' as well and last time I had mod interaction it was the same one, same as before and another time and uh he was very stern and basically told me to appeal and don't bother him again. It was not open for discussion and when I appealed it, they turned down the request almost immediately as it did not take long to get back to me. What I did really wasn't that big of a deal, yes, I was venting a little bit, but it seems someone reported me to them when I've seen mods sometimes 'fix' other similar issues for others on here. Now, I'm no better than anyone else. I've contributed too much to this game but so have others and there are even those who gave much more. Especially Guild leaders and such which I just don't have time for that and some people out there are really rude and in it for themselves, and so I've already wasted enough time and energy in my life cleaning up other people's mess.

Anyways, so my dilemma here is over time I really learned to love this game. I even love playing ESO MORE than I like interacting with certain people if that tells you anything. And so, some on here don't want us to say or do anything to offend the devs, which offending people was never part of the plan. You should be able to make your point without getting too personal with them. But what I don't understand is why they keep changing things that have the afect of breaking certain types of gameplays that's existed for years. Like right now, one example, Stamblade isn't a good competitive choice for PvP, Templar is just so weird without a proper jabs' animation. These classes do not 'play' as they once did and so it's like if I want to play as a NB, then I don't expect to be forced to play as a DK or Warden. But now its all coming down to the same build because no one can cloak reliably anymore and not for long even when cloak worked properly.

So, another part of this problem for the mods, is you have many of us unhappy with some of the changes that are just bad which unnecessarily brings us into conflict with some of them. Some of the changes made in recent years in fact, are so bad they hurt the game but there's no way to communicate this without saying it like it is. I cannot be honest with you and say everything you want to hear as well. Now, it's not the mods fault and it doesn't make the devs bad people. But Its damaging the experience with this game for many of us and I understand things can and probably should change over time but on some levels, changes being made are not true to what the game is about. Like making NB cloak buff PvE dmg, I mean c'mon. A glaring lack of representation is leading to changes that in my opinion abuse the support given to the game, for the continuation of the things we love about the game not for changes that make us hate it.

And so, I wish they would understand that not agreeing with them does not make us a 'bad actor'. There are other things as well like holding Crowns that I purchased on a storage account with money that I don't have. Like seriously... let me have what I purchased and gift those to my other account. You guys are wrong for selling me something and then not letting me use as it was originally intended for. I do not hate ZOS, I do not hate mods, I understand they both have a tough job sometimes but there are some problems here that are not getting resolved and like someone else said we're not being given a respectful communication about things or they're just doing whatever they want to do. It really seems some people get away with whatever they want because they're Guild leaders ok, so they get gifting enabled. I am not playing a role here however uh I have been with the game for over 10 years now and I can't get at 10k Crowns on my storage account ... gifted to my other account which has itself already has gifting enabled. Its not all about me but that makes no sense.. whatsoever. Why am I being penalized for the mistakes that others made in abusing your Crown gifting policy. Seriously you're almost treating me like I'm one of them.

Seriously, now how do you mods, you devs reading this, how do you expect us to feel about this? It isn't right and I think alot of the bans and such on here are a little overzealous at times. Again, when you have this kind of policy what do you expect from people who receive no communication or just childish comments in the patch notes. I mean c'mon. Think about it.

Its like this, let's say this for example, ZOS is running a Steakhouse ok. And uh.. you get a 'new' chef(s) in the kitchen. And this person or persons decide, "uh well we're not making any of our Steaks well-done anymore. Everyone gets the rarest temperature for their meat now." And you charge alot for admittance to your diner. And now, after ordering, they ignore me wanting a well-done piece of Steak and I'm forced to eat rare, with blood- gushing out of the thing all over my plate. Um... does it seem fair to force everyone to order what one or a couple people want us to have when traditionally, its been a diner that serves some amazing things. Do you think people would come back to your diner for raw meat?

When posts are removed, it's important to remember that this can sometimes happen (without any action against you) not because of any problem with those posts themselves, but because they refer to other posts which have had to be removed. You won't necessarily be told about it, you'll just discover that something you recall posting has gone and won't understand why.

DigiAngel wrote: »

I once got a 72 hour here for a phrase that's commonly used. Several instances of that phrase are still in the forums today.

I had the same experience, though I didn't get a suspension, just a warning. I've seen the same phrasing I was warned about used since then (now that I'm looking for it), which isn't surprising because it's a very common phrase, and it's a sentiment posters often express, sometimes harsher than I did, with no action. And there shouldn't be any action, as far as my reading of the TOS goes. So why was I warned? Full moon? Someone in a bad mood? Who knows? I didn't contest it because I was worried that it would make things worse.

Consistency is important when performing an activity like moderation. Unfortunately it's lacking here. I've seen posts edited that don't seem to have violated anything, and posts that blatantly violate the TOS remain unedited.

I was hesitant to post in this thread, but since it's been allowed to remain open and another poster already expressed the same thing, I figured I'd chance it.

@ZOS_Kevin there are enough problems with hostile and overly aggressive moderators that I have gone from coming to the forums every day to maybe coming here once a month.

I know people who are afraid to post here anymore too because one of them had their actual game account threatened to be banned for a post they made. It's pretty heavy handed to have your game account banned for posting here outside of the game. I understand a forum ban, but not a full on game account ban. The ESO Reddit is full of ESO forum refugees with similar stories.

I often don't say what I really want to say here either and will just hit "Agree" or another reaction on someone else's post because I don't know what's going to set off a moderator and don't want my game account banned.

Honestly, all of this+AI moderation in game just makes the game feel hostile to the player. I don't think it's very good for the business, but what do I know.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to chime in here. Thank you starting the thread and having the discussion. One of the things we’ve always strived for with moderation is leading with education with community guidelines in mind. Personally, I know I have worked with several folks over the last few years to clarify guidelines or help reverse actions if comments were taken out of context. We are not trying to stifle conversation.

However, given some of the feedback in the thread, we can always adjust. In the new year, we’ll review the feedback in this thread and reach out to some of you via DM to get additional feedback. We can then chat with the moderation team and go from there.

The point of the forums is to have conversation. Both about the fun and cool things you love about ESO and for us to get feedback on where we can improve. We want to empower everyone to have challenging and engaging discourse, without breaking community guidelines. Thanks again for raising the topic and we’ll work toward a better balance here.

A huge issue with the forums, which makes me and I'm sure a lot of others not want to even participate in it, is the absurd rules in engagement. I can get a three day ban for calling someone's list a "joke of a list" when they suggest removing bar swapping from the game, a completely integral part of the game, yet people can go through different threads, lie, gaslight, insult passive aggressively, and see no repercussions for their actions. Then, to add on, "community managers" will not respond to inquiries. Is there a reason the system "works" this way?

ForumSavant wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to chime in here. Thank you starting the thread and having the discussion. One of the things we’ve always strived for with moderation is leading with education with community guidelines in mind. Personally, I know I have worked with several folks over the last few years to clarify guidelines or help reverse actions if comments were taken out of context. We are not trying to stifle conversation.

However, given some of the feedback in the thread, we can always adjust. In the new year, we’ll review the feedback in this thread and reach out to some of you via DM to get additional feedback. We can then chat with the moderation team and go from there.

The point of the forums is to have conversation. Both about the fun and cool things you love about ESO and for us to get feedback on where we can improve. We want to empower everyone to have challenging and engaging discourse, without breaking community guidelines. Thanks again for raising the topic and we’ll work toward a better balance here.

A huge issue with the forums, which makes me and I'm sure a lot of others not want to even participate in it, is the absurd rules in engagement. I can get a three day ban for calling someone's list a "joke of a list" when they suggest removing bar swapping from the game, a completely integral part of the game, yet people can go through different threads, lie, gaslight, insult passive aggressively, and see no repercussions for their actions. Then, to add on, "community managers" will not respond to inquiries. Is there a reason the system "works" this way?

ya over moderation is a MASSIVE issue both in the game itself and, especially, on the forums. You can get actioned for the most benign comments and its ridiculous. And depending on what mod you end up talking to, you may get a different answer about the rule you supposedly broke. Multiple times i have asked a mod if something very specific was ok, got the answer that it was, then when i revealed i was actioned for it they made up an excuse as to why it may sometimes not be ok. Or just ignored me after.

The problem is the rules can be so vague and open to interpretation, that depending on who you get, and maybe how they are feeling that day, you may get a different result. But these results are permanent. Its rare that the action to your account will be overturned. They stick together. I mean for all i know the person i am appealing the account action to may be the person who actioned it in the first place lol. Who knows.

I could give a ridiculous list of things i have been actioned for both in game and on the forums. And every person i have ever shown these things to thought it was absolutely insane. Thats one of the reasons i barely talk in game or on the forums anymore. Any criticism has the potential to get your account actioned. And its permanent. And with their supposed policy of 3 strikes and your out, its not worth the risk.

Not to mention things i have been banned for, such as swearing in chat, i had no idea was against the rules. Its a rated M game. But the rule was vague and open to interpretation, so it is what it is.

Every single action on my forums account ever has been absolutely childish. Hell, most of them even a child wouldnt consider offensive. Maybe it could be defined as cheeky. But we are not children, this is a rated M game, and we should be able to have debates about the game on the forums. I should be able to call someone's idea foolish. And im not talking about name calling, or attacking someone, or publicly humiliating them, or anything like that.

Since i cant list any of the things that they have actioned my forum account for, ill give this last example. My @ name was banned a couple years back. It was eso lags. Every single character name with the word lag, such as lagplar and lagblade, were name changed. When i asked @ZOS_GinaBruno about it on twitter she said the word lag was not forbidden in any way in the game and she had no idea what i would be talking about, and asked for more context. When i gave her that context she never got back to me. Just another case of one person says its fine, while the other says its not. But they always stand by the choice their colleague made. I just let it go and figured i would just not have the name i had for like 6 years, but still its crazy how much they over moderate every aspect of anything eso.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to chime in here. Thank you starting the thread and having the discussion. One of the things we’ve always strived for with moderation is leading with education with community guidelines in mind. Personally, I know I have worked with several folks over the last few years to clarify guidelines or help reverse actions if comments were taken out of context. We are not trying to stifle conversation.

However, given some of the feedback in the thread, we can always adjust. In the new year, we’ll review the feedback in this thread and reach out to some of you via DM to get additional feedback. We can then chat with the moderation team and go from there.

The point of the forums is to have conversation. Both about the fun and cool things you love about ESO and for us to get feedback on where we can improve. We want to empower everyone to have challenging and engaging discourse, without breaking community guidelines. Thanks again for raising the topic and we’ll work toward a better balance here.

Sigh, another "communication" post.

You know, there is always an element of curiosity that arises when I see [snip] in a post. Like, what was originally said? It's like I missed out on the initial uncensored airing of the episode and have to put up with the black bar over the character.

I get why the moderation is needed though. The last time I had any sort of action toward me, and as far as I can remember the only time I had any sort of action toward me, was a forum warning several years ago during a certain discussion that I won't specifically mention. Except that it got quite heated, from a lot of folks posting about it, so there were a lot of green-text responses reminding people to cool it. And while I didn't like that I got a warning, it also convinced me to take a step back from the topic for a bit.

I'm fairly good at self moderation, but we're only human. We might slip up. Sometimes something looks more severe than it actually is. For instance, there are two letters on the keyboard that are adjacent to each other, and using one letter spells out a common word, while the other a very very bad word. I have seen that happen in guild chat, but it is clear from the context that the mundane word was meant. A human moderator would see that context and pick up on it, but even the most advanced AI would not. A purposeful bypass of the profanity filter looks quite intentional, for instance the letters "ph" are not terribly adjacent to "f".

I guess my point there is that actioning accounts should only be done by a human mind, even if the initial action is automated to prevent an exploit or someone spamming really bad words.

I mean, technically, in my second paragraph I talked about a disciplinary action. Maybe not so specifically, but I know the spirit of that rule is so people don't post open ban appeals on the forums. Contextually, though, part of this discussion, it doesn't inflame things or cause potential anger. And knowing how abrasive I can be at times, that that incident is the only time I had a moderator tell me personally to "cool it" (paraphrasing here), is probably part because I can self moderate pretty well, and I haven't personally experienced overmoderation.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and even if it is rare, there is always room for improvement. I am encouraged by Kevin's response here that the team is open to feedback, and I must give credit to the mods as there have been some important discussions in recent years concerning moderation that were allowed to continue. But keeping things from devolving into outright toxicity is important too!

Tornaad wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin there are enough problems with hostile and overly aggressive moderators that I have gone from coming to the forums every day to maybe coming here once a month.

In this forum I was permabanned then brought back in by a miracle, after a month.
Some of my threads were entirely removed (not posts, I said threads, one was 72 pages long).
I am not an aggressive or rude person. However, expressing my ideas with constructive criticism was not understood. Now I have been warned, so I do not say a word. I have read this entire thread carefully, but I do not feel like expressing my thoughts to the end. Fear? Well, every now and then I still like to come and write something neutral. So I avoid expressing strong concepts. I keep them to myself.

My biggest issue is that past infractions NEVER fall off.

Please clarify if this is how this works. If a poster makes a mistake years ago, has no infractions for a few more years, then messes up and says something they shouldn't have, is it all added up together? And could they then be considered a bad actor and be permanently banned because they exceeded a certain number of infractions? Even though the other infractions were years ago?

I think infractions should be removed from the poster's history after 6 months, or a year at the most, and not held against the poster forever.

Pretty much my first experience of these forums was receiving a warning for baiting simply by asking if an activity I'd heard about in the game really happens (and, no, not a rude one). It was not an especially welcoming introduction and when I appealed I just got "we looked and upheld the warning".

To this day I'm completely baffled and for a while I was reluctant to post anything at all because it was so utterly random. Part of the problem seems to be that without an encyclopaedic knowledge of everything that's ever come up on the forums you have no idea what topic might have been controversial in the past and therefore what a mod might leap on.