ZOS needs to stop listening to these solo players and look at other PvP games for reference. In those games, there are only 2 main queues:

1) Casual queue
2) Competitive queue

Every single PvP game has operated on that principle and ignored the constant cries from solo players, and for good reason.

If you want to solo queue, expect to match against organized groups. That’s literally how every PvP game is lol. If you want to be competitive, start finding players and build a team with them. It’s that simple.

In ESO, that would be the 8v8 queue and 4v4 queue, respectively. There is no need to separate queues into solo vs group.

Going to post the same feedback here so solo battleground people feedback doesn't get drowned because of multiple threads about the topic.

I am very happy with the solo queue changes.

- Players who prefer to play in pre-made groups have the option
- Players who queue solo have also the option to play against other solo's who have the same potential synergy and communication handicaps.

This is fair matchmaking that wont chase me and an entire segment of fellow casual battlegrounders away.

Thank you for creating both options. Yeah some group pre-mades will be angry they don't get to stomp solo lobbies, but it will create a better environment for every type of player. If there wasn't a solo queue anymore I would have dropped the mode completely from my rotation anyway.

This issue can't be 'solved'. What they have now is the most balanced option for both parties.

If there is no solo queue, people like me just would stop doing battlegrounds and seeing the feedback from the past week, I am certainly not the only one. So less players wouldn't do queue times any favors. Especially because many of us would rather not play at all than being forced to play with premades. We solo battlegrounders have no impact on group queue times because we would not queue there.

On top of this there will be new rewards with the update so a certain type of player will surely try to organize themself to farm the system as efficiently as possible with solo players as casualty if ZOS let them.

I wonder how many of the complaints sent to ZOS about having to fight premade groups was actually the result of the player(s) thinking the other team was premade simply because its players were better/more experienced?

While I have my reservations about the new BGs, I do think ZOS finally added something to the game that should have been implemented a long, long time ago: a system for teams of 4 to quickly fight other teams of 4, without an unnecessary additional team running back a relic and ending the match in like 2 minutes. That it has rewards/leaderboards is all the better. ZOS seems really intent on making sure solos only fight solos: if that's the majority of the queing BG population, that's probably for the best. I would think with the lowering of needed population from 12 to 8, que length should be not nearly as problematic as with the 4v4v4 format.

I think it's counterintuitive to have organized groups in a supposed "casual" setting. That this is "beyond the scope" of update 44 is incredulous. The feedback ZOS received for allowing duos seemed perfectly reasonable. Unless some of the larger PvP guilds want to 8v8, that que will probably not be popular.

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ZOS needs to stop listening to these solo players and look at other PvP games for reference. In those games, there are only 2 main queues:

1) Casual queue
2) Competitive queue

Every single PvP game has operated on that principle and ignored the constant cries from solo players, and for good reason.

If you want to solo queue, expect to match against organized groups. That’s literally how every PvP game is lol. If you want to be competitive, start finding players and build a team with them. It’s that simple.

In ESO, that would be the 8v8 queue and 4v4 queue, respectively. There is no need to separate queues into solo vs group.

Just because a lot of other games have systems like that doesnt mean its a good system

If you want to play competitive in premade groups you should be willing to wait until you actually get another premade group to fight against. It can hardly be called competitive if most of your matches you are just stomping random groups.

And if the group queue would still take forever with the changes i guess that says enough about how many people actually want to competitively fight other premades.

That is why there is an MMR system for that…

Organized groups naturally will have the highest MMR and will have already matched with similar groups.

StaticWave wrote: »

ZOS needs to stop listening to these solo players and look at other PvP games for reference. In those games, there are only 2 main queues:

1) Casual queue
2) Competitive queue

Every single PvP game has operated on that principle and ignored the constant cries from solo players, and for good reason.

If you want to solo queue, expect to match against organized groups. That’s literally how every PvP game is lol. If you want to be competitive, start finding players and build a team with them. It’s that simple.

In ESO, that would be the 8v8 queue and 4v4 queue, respectively. There is no need to separate queues into solo vs group.

Zos needs to listen to all of their players feedback, including yours. They've done that and here we are. You have your group queue which will take a nanosecond because there are soooo many groups actively participating in bgs and we have our solo queues which will take the usual 1-5 minutes to get. Then we all get to play the game we want.

I see no harm done here.

Veteran PvPer in other games, only occasional PvPer in ESO here.
I just want to say that the words "8v8 solo queues" got me really excited and willing to try out more BGs, as a solo player myself!

I always had this problem in every game: doing great in FFA modes; doing great in group modes without premades; getting humiliated in group modes with premades since I am always solo.

I'm no expert about ESO PvP population but I think the changes will bring in some more people that wouldn't have participated before, so to me sounds nice.

Aldoss wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

- Players who prefer to play in pre-made groups have the option
- Players who queue solo have also the option to play against other solo's who have the same potential synergy and communication handicaps.

What about us casual duo'ers?

What is our option?

On live, a coordinated, optimized 4-man has already proven that they are more than capable of decimating 4 other groups of casual duo'ers (the group size that 100% feeds the current group queue).

You're applauding ZOS not throwing you to the wolves while simultaneously applauding them throwing us to the wolves. GG I guess. You won the trolley problem.

It would be better if you could queue for the "solo" 8v8 solo or with a duo, but ZOS said they were not capable of that atm.

Otherwise there is no better option, because ZOS has absolutely no way to determine if a group is casual or competitive.
If you want to play with a casual group your best option is going to be to queue for the casual 8v8 BGs.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I wonder how many of the complaints sent to ZOS about having to fight premade groups was actually the result of the player(s) thinking the other team was premade simply because its players were better/more experienced?

Funny enough, I've had countless interactions with team mates who got farmed, that claimed the other teams were premades even though we were in solo queue.

Same type of person that thinks everyone is hacking or breaking the 1s GCD.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

"According to the DSM-IV, rationalization occurs "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for their own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations"

It's part of the human condition. Some of us cannot accept reality so we make up our own.

Edit: I would only add that it's pretty apparent to me at least that one's performance is this game means a heck of a lot to some people who play it... like their self-worth or self-esteem rises and drops with their kdr... I do not know why but we should keep that in mind when people say things like the above.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

There's barely a population for Battlegrounds as it is right now with a single queue.

Because real PvP is in Cyrodiil.

As someone else put it, I have no interest in joining a zerg, being zerged down, poor performance, or playing horse simulator. People have different interests, there's no such thing as "real PVP".

People keep talking about how increasing the queue options will kill BGs or reference the past changes to BG queues as proof of such, but don't look at the bigger picture.

• If competitive is meant for premades apparently, why do you need a random solo to farm? That doesn't sound very competitive, although if that's really what you want, people who want to queue for that solo still can. Some people just want a match as soon a a possible and will queue for everything.
• 4v4 for 8 players, requires 4 less than Live's 12, 33% less. Assuming the population of premades remains the same, which it will probably increase, not decrease, this is at least 33% faster than before.
• BGs have been revamped, better rewards, better leaderboard, better maps, no third partying.. just 2 teams, objective modes are designed in a way that forces teams to engage with each other vs running away. This undoubtedly will bring back players that have written BGs off, theoritically the population will rise.
• Options are never a bad thing. Even if queue gets much worse, I would rather wait 5 extra minutes for a match I enjoy, vs an instant match that I hate.
• I personally prefer solo queue, but I still prefer more competitive games with competent players. In the original version and many of the ideas floating around, I was told my preference didn't matter, go to 8v8 casual.. well I've seen what thats like and even if premades weren't allowed in there, it's a cluster****. At least in 4v4v4, one of those teams would focus on something else like the objective or couldn't stack 8 players worth of HOTs/Shields.
• Equating past BG population size directly with the changing of the queues without also acknowledging major updates that may have pushed away players from the game is a false equivalancy. What I mostly remember is begrudgingly being forced to fight premades at first, then losing a DM only queue because of "population size", only for them to add it back later in a test that was conducted under poor conditions (I think New World launched). They came to the same same conclusion that they didn't want too many queues, forcing us again, to fight troll tanks and dedicated flag runners instead of actually fighting each other. Objective vs non objective players have been fighting about it ever since, breeding toxicity in game and on the forums, reducing the population even more, all because they took away our options... It seems they may have finally realized this lesson and less than 24h later we're trying to reverse it? I don't understand.

I think we should let this play out. This is a good starting point to see how things go, provide as many options as possible, reduce if necessary. I think solo 4v4 and group 4v4 are here to stay, 8v8 could be reduced from solo and group to duo, but that's just me. Even if 8v8 is dead most of the time, the option being there gives BG guilds the opportunity to queue 4x premades for some wacky matches.

Also, add random queues to help fill slots or at the very least allow us to queue all of them without forcing us to change our UI. If someone wants to queue that way, they can't complain when they get placed in a match that's less than ideal.

Agree with all of the points made here. Very insightful post.

Agreed. Splitting up que’s would show how naive the developers really are if it happens. It caused one of the largest if not the largest exodus in the games entire history.

The best solution IMO if solo players want a 4v4 is to have the following options.
4v4 - ranked(group)
4v4 - unranked(solo)
8v8 - unranked(group)

That gives the solo players what they want, but following general gaming competitive rules. Competitive anything goes, group, solo , however you want to que in. Competitive is never ever split up with group vs solo, because that is in fact not competitive. That’s RNG. Competitive should have exclusive rewards to make it appealing to play and actually want to do good and earn those exclusive rewards(titles, mounts, motifs etc) that can’t be earned any other way in the game. Imo this way, you can give everyone what they want, but also with incentive to participate in the new competitive 4v4 system.

Edit: also ranked should be DM only, pvp is about fighting and getting kills. DM only also makes it easier to have a true ranking system and MMR system. Unranked could be mixed game modes.

Miracle19 wrote: »

Agreed. Splitting up que’s would show how naive the developers really are if it happens. It caused one of the largest if not the largest exodus in the games entire history.

The best solution IMO if solo players want a 4v4 is to have the following options.
4v4 - ranked(group)
4v4 - unranked(solo)
8v8 - unranked(group)

That gives the solo players what they want, but following general gaming competitive rules. Competitive anything goes, group, solo , however you want to que in. Competitive is never ever split up with group vs solo, because that is in fact not competitive. That’s RNG. Competitive should have exclusive rewards to make it appealing to play and actually want to do good and earn those exclusive rewards(titles, mounts, motifs etc) that can’t be earned any other way in the game. Imo this way, you can give everyone what they want, but also with incentive to participate in the new competitive 4v4 system.

Edit: also ranked should be DM only, pvp is about fighting and getting kills. DM only also makes it easier to have a true ranking system and MMR system. Unranked could be mixed game modes.

U give everyone what they want except the casual solo queue people like me who just play battlegrounds sometimes (and a lot of other who reacted over the past weeks)

I just want a 8v8 solo guaranteed queue with varied game modes.

Oh well we will see what eventually goes live. But I will drop battlegrounds from my rotation if there isn't a 8v8 solo queue and I won't bother the PvP people anymore and go full PvE.

RomanRex wrote: »

When I log a MOBA it’s to play a well designed game tailored to be a MOBA. ESO is not made for that and its imbalances (classes, sets, etc.) will always make battlegrounds unappealing to most players.

With the current state of ESO, almost no one logs in just to play PvP, especially not to queue for battlegrounds.

Siloing the queues is only going to make things worse for an already dwindling population.

False

There are a lot of us. You just don't see us because we're busy in bgs or cyro or ic. We climb out from under our respective rocks when we need to farm something for pvp.

If I could get all I needed in game from ovp sources I'd never touch pve and I think there are many like me.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

When I log a MOBA it’s to play a well designed game tailored to be a MOBA. ESO is not made for that and its imbalances (classes, sets, etc.) will always make battlegrounds unappealing to most players.

With the current state of ESO, almost no one logs in just to play PvP, especially not to queue for battlegrounds.

Siloing the queues is only going to make things worse for an already dwindling population.

False

There are a lot of us. You just don't see us because we're busy in bgs or cyro or ic. We climb out from under our respective rocks when we need to farm something for pvp.

If I could get all I needed in game from ovp sources I'd never touch pve and I think there are many like me.

My experience is the opposite. I have played plenty of PvP, especially BG’s.

The % of this game who care about BG’s is probably single digits at max. The same handful of people over and over depending on server.

ESO isn’t a MOBA. BG’s don’t work well in this game and never will. At least not well enough that most players would be motivated to log in just to cue for them.

It’s like dev’s are cooks obsessed with preparing dinner in the kitchen of a sinking ship. It won’t save the ship regardless of how great the dinner looks.

StaticWave wrote: »

ZOS needs to stop listening to these solo players and look at other PvP games for reference. In those games, there are only 2 main queues:

1) Casual queue
2) Competitive queue

Every single PvP game has operated on that principle and ignored the constant cries from solo players, and for good reason.

If you want to solo queue, expect to match against organized groups. That’s literally how every PvP game is lol. If you want to be competitive, start finding players and build a team with them. It’s that simple.

In ESO, that would be the 8v8 queue and 4v4 queue, respectively. There is no need to separate queues into solo vs group.

I disagree, if you look at other genres (were population in PvP isint a real problem) like MOBAs (most foremost League of Legends) you have a LOT of different queues.

You have Quickplay to just instandly go to play, you have competitive were you can only play solo or duo, you have competitive to play with a group and you have another casual mode that works the exact same as the competitive queues but you can queue with as much people as you want.

So i am a believer that its all a population issue right now and we have to see how it will go. Let them cook for once (please only here, take them the balance-change-spoon away please) and see what happens. Whatever will happen, it will not be worse than it is right now i think